Bohras on hadith of: Mohamed PBUH is city of knowledge

[maethist]

and suddenly these bohra abdes have no answer!!!! where are you hiding munira???? what are you going to try now in order to prove your fake fatemi beliefs

I am interested in arguments purporting to demonstrate whether the Prophet was illiterate or literate. These should be based on recorded history of actual happenings which may be considered accurate beyond reasonable doubt.

I would not be interested in miracles and other-worldly phenomena to drive the point home.

Idiots like truth seeker 100 must first demonstrate that their belief in Allah is not fake before accusing Bohras of similar fakery. And do not bring angels and heavenly books in support of your argument. Otherwise you can go and jump in a lake.

[maethist]

A plausible argument in support of Prophet's literacy can be deduced from his character.

It has been related that a woman once asked the Prophet to advise her son not to eat a large number of dates. Prophet asked the woman to return in a few days with her son. He used the interval to restrict himself from eating his favorite dates because he himself was so fond of them. He then felt able to advise the woman's child.

Since the Prophet advised his followers to value learning, it is reasonable to assume that he himself had taken full advantage of it. That would not have been complete without learning to be literate.

[anajmi]

The evidence sighted about the prophet (saw)'s writing skills is a hadith in Bukhari and Muslim and that too when he was on his death bed. C'mon folks. I am sure you can do better. He was preaching Quran for 23 years and was a working man before. I am sure you can produce other evidence of his writing? How about letters that he might've written? How about an ayah of the Quran that he wrote himself? Don't you guys have anything solid?

And, whatever the prophet (saw) wanted to write on his death bed, he could've written during those 23 years when he knew how to write no? Also, he didn't write a single ayah of the Quran. He used to recite it and people would write it down or memorize it. He could've done the same thing on his death bed no? Recite whatever it is that he wanted to write down. Was it wahi? then he never wrote that down. He always recited it. Was it a last minute wish? He didn't need to write that down either, he could've just said it. Was it the succession of Ali? Then according to those who believe it, he had already declared it on ghadeer and Allah had already revealed an ayah confirming it. So what was it that he wanted to write? Allah o Alam.

By the way, I am having difficulty in finding the hadith from Bukhari and Muslim. Those who are familiar with it like Munira, would you be kind enough to post a link to it?

One other thing to remember is that the prophet (saw) remained alive for days after this incident. He wasn't a prisoner, he could've written down whatever it was that he wanted later on.

[truth seeker100]

Actually, the hadith doesn't support his literacy. Since, he didn't actually write anything down. He asked for a paper to write, but since people knew he couldn't actually write, they thought he was out of his mind.

1. Prophet Mohamed PBUH says and do only as Allah wants him to say and do.

2. When Prophet Mohamed PBUH ask for pen and tablet to write: Sunni's leader Hz. Umar and alike at the death-bed of Mohamed PBUH, and Sunni's in general in current time believes that Prophet Mohamed PBUH is speaking lies as he can't write and still asking for pen to write or he has gone out of mind (gone lunatic/mad)!!! Mazallah.

Shame, shame!!! What degraded level of respect all above have for Prophet of Islam PBUH?!!!

Remember: Hz. Umar act/stand above was reported by Muslim in his Sahih. And similar tradition was reported by Bukhari in his Sahih.


Any human with sanity who have faith in religion of Islam in his common sense will disagree with Hz. Umar and Sunni's stand on Prophet PBUH that - Mohamed PBUH is speaking lie that he will write something or has gone mad/out of mind! Mazallah.

(Case - A) Sunni dogma in reference to above case = Prophet Mohamed PBUH on hid death-bed gone lunatic/out of mind.

(Case - B) Dawoodi Bohras dogma: Words of Mohamed PBUH are words of Allah. If Mohamed PBUH asked for pen and tablet to write then he is neither speaking lies nor is he gone lunatic. The matter of fact is: for 40 of his 63 years of life Mohamed PBUH didn't do any Islamic preaching, just impressed commoner that I speak only truth and do not lie. People referred him as "Saadiq". To a group of people Mohamed PBUH said if I tell your enemy is at other side of mountain will you believe me? Yes, they replied. If you went to mountain-top and couldn't see your enemies then what? They replied, "We will conclude our eyes are gone sick but Mohamed PBUH cannot lie."

Those who have love for Mohamed PBUH are free to choose from case A or B above.

so according to you bohra doctrine is right just because it says the prophet was literate???? what about all the other bs it says about imams and dais, can you prove that, before you go ranting on about bohra dogma??

[SBM]

Being a dumb on religion my question if Prophet was literate why the first Surah of the Quran which was revealed to him was "IQRA"?
Did not Allaha knew that Prophet was literate and he could read and write?

[Munira_RV]

Being a dumb on religion my question if Prophet was literate why the first Surah of the Quran which was revealed to him was "IQRA"?
Did not Allaha knew that Prophet was literate and he could read and write?

Good question SBM Bhai.

At time when first Qur'an verse of "Iqraab" was revealed Mohamed PBUH was not knowing reading/writing so, it was apt to say iqraab. This status of Mohamed PBUH makes strong case in favor of Qur'an - an illiterate person presumably cannot forge such literature (Qur'an), hence Mohamed PBUH initial illiterate (Arabic reading/writing) status become one of stronger proof that Qur'an is Devine book.

As time progressed Mohamed PBUH was bestowed with: meeting Allah, saw paradise, meet previous Prophet - on Mairaj. When he migrated to Medina he was bestowed with all (100%) knowledge of all faculties (with exception of those knowledge which is prerogative of Allah alone like knowledge of Qayamat time, etc). Allah made public the latest status of literacy of Mohamed PBUH; that he knows everything (including Arabic reading and writing) in Surah Nisa, verse 113.

[anajmi]

After some research, I think the hadith about the pen and paper has become clear. The hadith was a test of the sahabah by the prophet (saw). He asked for a pen and paper and said that let me write something down for you after which you will never go astray. Some sahabah said that the prophet (saw) was out of his mind and that the Quran and Sunnah was enough for them. Some wanted to give him the pen and the paper.

Those who thought that the Quran and Sunnah was enough and that the prophet (saw) was out of his mind passed the test. The others failed. How so. you might ask?

Today a lot of people will come to you and say that if you take this letter or if you take this book written by me, you will never go astray. Those who think that these letters and books will be their salvation, will fail the test, and those who believe that these people are out their minds and that the Quran and Sunnah is enough for their salvation will pass the test.

The prophet (saw) wasn't out of his mind. Even on his death bed he was teaching us a lesson. Some of us learned and some still haven't.

[maethist]

All this is beating around the bush. Speculation is not going to prove whether Prophet was illiterate or not.

All you need to do is to identify one authentic report of the Prophet reading and/or writing, preferably in Arabic, or an authentic report of Prophet himself affirming or denying that he was literate.

Otherwise I will conclude it is you who must be out of your mind.

[anajmi]

All you need to do is to identify one authentic report of the Prophet reading and/or writing, preferably in Arabic. Otherwise I will conclude it is you who must be out of your mind.

Exactly.

[anajmi]

or an authentic report of Prophet himself affirming or denying that he was literate.

There is a famous hadith in Bukhari about the first time the prophet (saw) encountered Jibarel (as) in the cave. The angel came and said - "Iqra". Read!. The prophet (saw) said - "Ma Ana Bi Qari". - I cannot read or I am not a reader.

It can be safely concluded that if a person cannot read, then he cannot write either, unless he cannot read because of blindness.

[maethist]

or an authentic report of Prophet himself affirming or denying that he was literate.

There is a famous hadith in Bukhari about the first time the prophet (saw) encountered Jibarel (as) in the cave. The angel came and said - "Iqra". Read!. The prophet (saw) said - "Ma Ana Bi Qari". - I cannot read or I am not a reader.

It can be safely concluded that if a person cannot read, then he cannot write either, unless he cannot read because of blindness.

"Ma Ana Bi Qari" could mean "What shall I recite?". Please provide full hadith in original Arabic and, if possible, its tafseer.

It still does not resolve the question of whether the Prophet learned to read/write in the remaining 23 years of his life.

[anajmi]

"Ma Ana Bi Qari" could mean "What shall I recite?"

"could mean" or "does mean"?

Please do search on google. You will be able to find the full arabic and explanation.

The angel is supposed to have said "Iqra" 3 times and the prophet (saw) said the same thing thrice. Most muffassireen have said that the angel had a cloth with him on which the first 5 ayahs of the Surah were written down which is what he was asking the prophet (saw) to read. So "What shall I recite" doesn't jive with that cause he probably knew what he had to recite.

[maethist]

The angel is supposed to have said "Iqra" 3 times and the prophet (saw) said the same thing thrice. Most muffassireen have said that the angel had a cloth with him on which the first 5 ayahs of the Surah were written down which is what he was asking the prophet (saw) to read. So "What shall I recite" doesn't jive with that cause he probably knew what he had to recite.

Really? An angel, no less an emissary from omniscient God, commanded an 'illiterate' person to read writing on cloth? These mufassireen must be out of their minds.

Let us not bring myths like angels into this discussion. It does not suit a debate in 21st century.

[anajmi]

Well, the angel is a myth for you. Not for me. So since, we are on two different planes, having this argument must mean we are both out of our minds. Now, when you figure out something the prophet (saw) wrote himself, let me know. Till then, I am going to get back into my mind.

[Munira_RV]

Q) Who is Muslim?
A) One who obey and follow Mohamed PBUH.

Mohamed PBUH command) He asked for pen and tablet so he can write so Muslim do not go astray.
Hazrat 2nd sahib response) Will not let you have pen and tablet. You are gone lunatic/out of mind. (Reference: Sahih Muslim).

As Hz. 2nd sahib has not obeyed command of Mohamed PBUH, indeed he did opposite of what Mohamed PBUH commanded. So point to ponder: Why should 2nd be called Muslim? And by extension, those who are affiliated/follows 2nd why they should be called as Muslim?

Mohamed PBUH said, "I want to write". 2nd disobeyed and said, Qur'an is sufficient.

Qur'an says, pray salaat. But it doesn't say its outright way i.e. how to pray. We learn it from Prophet Mohamed PBUH. So Qur'an in itself is not sufficient until Mohamed PBUH teaches us details. Hence, contention of 2nd was malicious to disobey Mohamed PBUH that Qur'an is sufficient.

Further to above, 2nd is considering himself more intelligent and knowledgeable than Mohamed PBUH! Because 2nd countered Mohamed's PBUH reasoning, "I will write so you will not get astray." 2nd rejected Mohamed PBUH reasoning and superimposed his own "excuses" over Mohamed PBUH command.

The Prophet of Islam, Mohamed PBUH who through out his life did hard work to preach Allah's message, on his death-bed when asking for such a paltry thing like pen and tablet - 2nd rejected it! "Marne wale ki aakhri ichcha poor ki jai he", here is Lord of whole world and leader of all Prophet's, he on his death-bed has asked for pen-tablet to write and instead of obeying, 2nd denied to obey to the command of Mohamed PBUH. HOW MUCH PAIN THE DYING PROPHET MOHAMED MUST HAVE FELT, THIS IS THE REWARD 2ND AND ALIKE ARE GIVING HIM BY NOT ABIDING TO COMMAND OF DYING MOHAMED PBUH. On top of this, 2nd is telling to dying Mohamed PBUH that Mohamed has gone lunatic/out of mind! What pain the dying Prophet of Islam PBUH must have felt when 2nd told him, Mohamed PBUH has gone out of mind (mad)?!!! Kuffar in beginning too used to accuse and insult Mohamed PBUH in the same manner: Mohamed PBUH is out of mind/lunatic. Why 2nd went way of kuffar?

Mohamed PBUH never lied. Should 2nd have obeyed or let others obeyed to Mohamed's PBUH then today no one would have astray (no sects, all in single fold of Islam. Time has proven that 2nd's contention has gone false and untrue that "Qur'an is sufficient" because Muslims are astray in hundreds of sects. Should 2nd have obeyed Mohamed PBUH no one would have been astray, all would have been into single united fold of Islam. So 2nd is directly guilty of all divisions in Islam (sects).

[anajmi]

because Muslims are astray in hundreds of sects.

And the dawoodi bohras are the prime example of a sect gone astray.

Should 2nd have obeyed Mohamed PBUH no one would have been astray,

Those following 2nd are not astray cause the Quran and Sunnah is sufficient for them. Rest are looking for hidden Imams, Daimul Islams and ruku chittis to not go astray!!

Prophet (saw) had ample time afterwards to write down his instructions, but he never did. Hence, he never wanted to write anything down. It was a test which 2nd passed and rest all failed.

[Munira_RV]

Those following 2nd are not astray cause the Quran and Sunnah is sufficient for them.

Sura Nisa: 113, says Prophet Mohamed pbuh knows everything (of course with exception of knowledge reserved only for Allah) - followers of 2nd disobey above dictum of Quran by degrading Mohamed PBUH with charges of him being illiterate. And when Mohamed PBUH asked for pen they consider him lying or thinks he gone out of mind!

Mohamed PBUH asked for pen & tablet, 2nd disobeyed. So followers of 2nd cannot follow Sunnat because their leader himself is disobeying Prophet PBUH command. And on top of it giving "gaali" to Prophet PBUH that he has gone mad.

so neither they follow Quran, nor they follow Sunnat. They only follow their self created whims to falsely paint sultanate of 1, 2 and 3 as Islamic caliphate.

Should 2nd have passed the test then Mohamed PBUH instead of rewarding would not have scolded him to "get away from me"!!! And it is a looser trait not winners trait to abuse examiner with bad-words (gaali): when 2nd said: Mohamed PBUH has (Mazallah) gone mad (out of mind)!!! Hence, 2nd is looser.

Note: This is not the first time that 2nd is failing in the test. On occasion of War of Khaibar - Muslim notes in his Sahih (31:5917) - Mohamed PBUH said, I will give standard to the one who loves Allah and Prophet and vice versa. 2nd came before Prophet with hope that he will be called for this. But Allah's messenger conferred this honour to Ameer-al-mumineen Mola Ali a.s. 2nd loosed to Ali a.s.

Before converting into Islam 2nd came to murder Prophet. On seeing Mohamed PBUH strength he failed his own plan and changed to convert in Islam.

When 2nd disobeyed pen tablet and abused Prophet of gone mad - Prophet PBUH scolded him to get away from him - he went to Saqifa.

This was my last post on the subject and leave the matter to knowledgeable members of the forum.

[maethist]

This was my last post on the subject and leave the matter to knowledgeable members of the forum.

You surely do not mean "anajmi". Gods preserve us!

Actually, that is quite ok. anajmi is a firm believer in angels. Like my 3 year old is a firm believer in Santa Clause. And they are both very knowledgeable.

[anajmi]

If your 3 year old is a firm believer in Santa Claus, then the problem is with you and not him. With fathers like you, God help preserve these innocent kids.

Anyone who disbelieves in the angels is a kafir. I am sure you can find the relevant ayah in the Quran. God doesn't intend to preserve the kafir. Dealing with a kafir is slightly different than dealing with people like Munirajanab who is misguided and ignorant.

munira_rv,

The prophet said "get away from me" to all the sahabas present in the room including the ones that wanted to give him the pen and the paper. And since the prophet (saw) actually didn't write anything down later on, we can safely conclude that 2nd was right that the Quran and Sunnah is enough for us. The sects who are looking for other writings like ruku chittis and hidden Imams and Daimul Islams are all lost sects.

[salim]

All important inventions in the Golden period of Islam was commissioned/invented by Fatimi Imams like: Fountain pen, modern concept of University, pin hole camera (mother of all modern day camera), optical science, medicine, chemistry... Where else Sunni's Abbasi caliph only copy/pasted Greek and Indian science into Arabic and promoted & bundled as development of Islamic knowledge = bigotry.

This is only partially true. Other non-ismaili muslims have contributed a lot to the Islamic civilization as well. Even the non-muslims who lived at that time under Muslim rullers contributed as well. The contribution that ismailis gave was great and proportionately more. I think at that time there was almost like a competition between different kingdoms to perform better that others.

Why are we left so much behind know. How many research papers are being submitted by Ismailis (Nizaris, Bohras, etc) today? How many great scientists today are Ismailis? I think we should reinvent ourselves. What are we contributing to the mankind?

[salim]

Was prophet Muhammad illiterate?

Someone should write a book on this arguing both the sides. I think we need more research.

If you think logically, how can Prophet Muhammad be illiterate. He was grand son of Abdul Mutallab and raised by Abu talib. He was from a very learned family know for taking care of Kaba, H. Ali, Fatima was very learned. Then why would Prophet Muhammad was not educated. Is is possible that you have very highly educated parents and grand parents and siblings and you don't know the basics? But it may be possible because Allah wanted people to believe that Muhammad did not write Quran and his started reading was a miracle. But Quran said so many times that Muhammad was not here to show miracles and he was human like us. Then there are so many other references we derive from Quran and Hadiths about Muhammad being ummi.

This is getting very interesting. I thank all of you for your contributions.

[anajmi]

There is a difference between being illiterate and being unable to read or write. The prophet (saw) was always of sound mind and judgment. People used to go to him to resolve issues and used him as a caretaker. He was a great employee in the employment of Hazrat Khadija.

The entire Quran is originally an oral transmission. The purpose behind this is also to prove its authenticity. Writing works are subject to changes. If a person could write something down, he could make changes to it, before sharing it. If on the other hand, a person says something, he can't change it. It has already been said.

[maethist]

There is a difference between being illiterate and being unable to read or write. The prophet (saw) was always of sound mind and judgment. People used to go to him to resolve issues and used him as a caretaker. He was a great employee in the employment of Hazrat Khadija.

The entire Quran is originally an oral transmission. The purpose behind this is also to prove its authenticity. Writing works are subject to changes. If a person could write something down, he could make changes to it, before sharing it. If on the other hand, a person says something, he can't change it. It has already been said.

Actually, Muhammad, heard the Quran from an angel, or heard it directly from Allah through inspiration (wahy), before sharing it with his contemporaries.

It is possible that he could have made changes before sharing it. But Muslims trust Muhammad not to have changed it. Similarly, if he had written it down, Muslims would have trusted him not to have altered it before writing it down.

Either way, it could be considered authentic words from Muhammad, but to consider that they are from Allah requires trust in Muhammad. That is despite the fact that the Quran itself states that it is from Allah.

That is being logically rigorous.

Thus this argument says nothing about literacy or illiteracy of Muhammad.

[anajmi]

It is possible that he could have made changes before sharing it.

Since we have assumed that it was divine inspiration, we can assume that divinity was protecting it from tampering.

Actually, if you consider the entire Quran, listening to someone, then making changes to it, then speaking it and doing this all without writing it down would be very very difficult, if not impossible.

Now, if it wasn't some angel delivering the message and it was all the prophet's creation, then considering the fact that he had the entire Quran memorized, recited it many times without changes, without having written a single word of it down and having read a single written word of it, is actually an impossible task. I wouldn't be able to repeat word by word what I said in the last 20 mins let alone 23 years!! So the fact that he was unable to read or write is actually a proof that the Quran is divine inspiration and nothing else. The prophet (saw) recited the Quran many times in front of his sahabas. And it was the same each time.

[maethist]

Since we have assumed that it was divine inspiration, we can assume that divinity was protecting it from tampering.

I have made no such assumption. We cannot bring in 'divinity' myth into the argument about literacy of Prophet.

Actually, if you consider the entire Quran, listening to someone, then making changes to it, then speaking it and doing this all without writing it down would be very very difficult, if not impossible.

You should break down the process you are attempting to describe so you can clarify your thinking. Even then, yes, it is not impossible.

Now, if it wasn't some angel delivering the message and it was all the prophet's creation, then considering the fact that he had the entire Quran memorized, recited it many times without changes, without having written a single word of it down and having read a single written word of it, is actually an impossible task. I wouldn't be able to repeat word by word what I said in the last 20 mins let alone 23 years!! So the fact that he was unable to read or write is actually a proof that the Quran is divine inspiration and nothing else.

That is all very well but what if he altered it before he recited it the first time, if, indeed, he received it from an angel. And what has this got to do with the literacy of Prophet?

The prophet (saw) recited the Quran many times in front of his sahabas. And it was the same each time.

Not the same each time. There are instances of variations which have come down to us in different modes of recitation. Muslims insist that this has no bearing on the meaning in that the meaning is the same in all modes of recitation.

Sorry, this is still unsatisfactory in deciding whether Prophet was literate or illiterate.

You must identify the actual piece of writing by Prophet or a hadith where Prophet has either confirmed or denied his literacy.

[anajmi]

I have made no such assumption.

Actually, Muhammad, heard the Quran from an angel, or heard it directly from Allah through inspiration (wahy), before sharing it with his contemporaries.

It is possible that he could have made changes before sharing it.

None of the above arguments have to do with the literacy of the prophet (saw). The bottom line is that he didn't write any verse or hadith down. It was all in his heart and mind and his actions.

6:7 But even if we had sent down unto thee [O Prophet] a writing on paper, and they had touched it with their own hands - those who are bent on denying the truth would indeed have said, "This is clearly nothing but a deception!"

29:48 for, [O Muhammad,] thou hast never been able to recite any divine writ ere this one [was revealed], nor didst thou ever transcribe one with your own hand or else, they who try to disprove the truth [of thy revelation] might indeed have had cause to doubt [it].

That is all very well but what if he altered it before he recited it the first time, if, indeed, he received it from an angel.

Well, I am assuming he knew that it was an angel of God and to alter it would be to invite the wrath of God!!

You must identify the actual piece of writing by Prophet

Well, since there is none, we can confirm that he didn't actually write anything down. Maybe because he couldn't or he chose not to. Either way, there is no evidence of him having written anything down as confirmed by the Quran.

[maethist]

6:7 But even if we had sent down unto thee [O Prophet] a writing on paper, and they had touched it with their own hands - those who are bent on denying the truth would indeed have said, "This is clearly nothing but a deception!"

29:48 for, [O Muhammad,] thou hast never been able to recite any divine writ ere this one [was revealed], nor didst thou ever transcribe one with your own hand or else, they who try to disprove the truth [of thy revelation] might indeed have had cause to doubt [it].

OK. Let us assume that Quran is the word of God because Quran says so. It has Allah's signature all over it.

In 6:7, going by the translation provided above, Quran is saying that 'some' people would have denied the truth of it whether it was revealed to Prophet orally or in writing. Right. But nothing about Prophet's literacy can be deduced from the ayat.

Similarly in 29:48 translation above, Quran says that 'some' people would have doubted the Prophet if he had previously recited or transcribed a scripture. Again, no definitive conclusion about Prophet's literacy is provided here.

Are you sure that there is nothing written by Prophet available on this planet nor a hadith that might indicate Prophet's literacy or non-literacy?

It is Prophet's literacy that I am concerned with not whether the Quran is a word of God or not. Quran's position on it being the word of God is axiomatic. You cannot use an axiom (the Quran is a word of God) to prove the axiom (the Quran is a word of God). That is not a logical argument. You must do better than that.

[anajmi]

In 6:7, going by the translation provided above, Quran is saying that 'some' people would have denied the truth of it whether it was revealed to Prophet orally or in writing. Right. But nothing about Prophet's literacy can be deduced from the ayat.

Actually, that is not what the Quran is saying. Read it again. It says - those who are bent on denying the truth would indeed have said, "This is clearly nothing but a deception!"

In the next ayah that I posted, it says - they who try to disprove the truth

I was going to say that you are smart enough to figure out the difference, but I think you are clearly bent upon denying the truth or disprove the truth.

Now, I cannot do better than the prophet (saw) and even he wasn't able to convince all.

To touch upon one point I missed earlier

There are instances of variations which have come down to us in different modes of recitation.

The variations that you are talking about are akin to tomato/tomahto and potato/potahto. The ones I was talking about are tomato/potato and potato/tomato. If you know of such variations, kindly point them out.

Are you sure that there is nothing written by Prophet available on this planet nor a hadith that might indicate Prophet's literacy or non-literacy?

I know for sure there is nothing available on this planet that the prophet (saw) wrote down. And you obviously do not have any evidence to the contrary.

[maethist]

This has gone on long enough. I am clearly not able to make you stick to the subject. You keep flying off in different directions.

I conclude that, as far as we know, there is no evidence either for or against Prophet's literacy. He could have been literate or illiterate and we have not yet been able to establish it one way or the other.

[SBM]

There is no evidence either for or against Prophet's literacy. He could have been literate or illiterate and we have not yet been able to establish it one way or the other.

And there is no evidence to believe that you are a true Atheist or self hating atheist and we have not been able to establish in one way or the other