The hidden Imam

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
anajmi
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The hidden Imam

#1

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:05 pm

This was indeed pointed out by Adam, an erstwhile participant on this board.
I am sure you will be able to point to the thread where Adam pointed this out. Please let us know. Thanks.

think
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#2

Unread post by think » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:08 pm

the word hate is inappropriate. Why would some one hate some one. The reason would be that that someone's interest in any form or fashion would be harmed.
secondly, if one was allowed to speak freely , he or she would denounce this distardly scheme in a second.
The cruelest step taken by kothar is to tie religion with culture, thus closing all doors for self realization.

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#3

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:19 pm

SBM wrote:
That is true of all who attend functions but dislike being there.
And that would be 95% of the Abde Bohras :mrgreen:
Abdes like being Abdes. Therefore, by definition, they are not self-hating Bohras.
SBM wrote:
Yet I will look out for you defending your religion, including ritual
And how do you plan to do that?
If you are here every day, I will see if you can recognize attack on your religion, Bohra religion, and respond in its defense. Or defend the attack as acceptable from the perspective of a person informed about his religion, citing Bohra scholarly references.

I do not believe that you can do that yet. I think you were driven to respond to me on this thread in support of anajmi and other non-Bohras. And I do not much care about you blowing your own trumpet about how generous you are in helping deserving people.

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#4

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:37 pm

anajmi wrote:
This was indeed pointed out by Adam, an erstwhile participant on this board.
I am sure you will be able to point to the thread where Adam pointed this out. Please let us know. Thanks.


It is right there on the first page of the thread where you valiantly sparred with me and displayed your full-frontal bigotry. I will reproduce it here.
Adam wrote:

{ وَكُلَّ شيْءٍ } غير المذكورات { أَحْصَيْنَاهُ } اى كتبناه { فِي? إِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ } هو اللّوح المحفوظ، او القلم الاعلى، او الامام الّذى هو بنفسه علم الله بكلّ شيءٍ فانّ الله بكلّ شيءٍ عليم
(And everything we have summed up in the Imam e Mobeen, that is the Lawhe-Mahfooz or the Qalam e Ala or the Imam, to whom himself Allah has taught everything, and All knows all)


By the way, the last phrase of Adam's quote is better translated "or the Imam to whom Allah Himself has taught everything, and Allah knows all.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:54 pm

Ok good. Thanks for pointing that out. I am glad that Adam has now accepted that the Imam referred to in 36:12 is not a human Imam but the book of records called Lawhe-Mahfooz.

We are making progress.

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#6

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:00 pm

Let me be clear. I do not know and do not agree or disagree that the majority of Bohras suffer silently owing to fear.

I took issue with Mr Insaf's article on two points. One, because he used the word 'proof' in response to vaguely defined surveys. Two, more important, I was challenging his assertion that a free forum would enable Bohras to express their views.

Well, this is a free forum but is used mainly to shit on the religion of Bohras by self-hating Bohras and specially non-Bohras. They do not much matter being much less than 0.01 % of Bohras.

SBM
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#7

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:18 pm

I took issue with Mr Insaf's article on two points. One, because he used the word 'proof' in response to vaguely defined surveys
And you have NO issues with SMS having a Hindu come and testify about the NUSS thru his dreams. You have no problem when SMS said he spoke to his brother Huzefa who was in the company of Ahle-Bayt, How hypocritical of you?

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#8

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:36 pm

SBM wrote:
I took issue with Mr Insaf's article on two points. One, because he used the word 'proof' in response to vaguely defined surveys
And you have NO issues with SMS having a Hindu come and testify about the NUSS thru his dreams. You have no problem when SMS said he spoke to his brother Huzefa who was in the company of Ahle-Bayt, How hypocritical of you?
These are non-issues. I do not subscribe to nuss in dreams, angels, lawh-e-mahfooz on which God writes, ilhaam, mediums talking to dead spirits, ghosts and sundry myths hindu or near-eastern.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:59 pm

What about the hidden Imams?

SBM
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#10

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:09 pm

If you do not believe in any of these issues then you can not be a Dawoodi Bohra since you have to believe in Imam in Purdah and Dai talking to Imam regarding NUSS.
What kind of Dawoodi Bohra are you? First you tell us that we are self hating Bohras while you do not believe in the basic concept of Dawoodi Bohra Dawat?
You are more confused then I thought

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#11

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:16 pm

SBM wrote:If you do not believe in any of these issues then you can not be a Dawoodi Bohra since you have to believe in Imam in Purdah and Dai talking to Imam regarding NUSS.
What kind of Dawoodi Bohra are you? First you tell us that we are self hating Bohras while you do not believe in the basic concept of Dawoodi Bohra Dawat?
You are more confused then I thought

You should consider me a non-Bohra.

I gave you a dispensation from being 'self-hating Bohra' because you have placed yourself outside the community.

all knowing, all righteous anajmi,

I already told you that a hidden Imam is a logical and historical possibility.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:36 pm

I already told you that a hidden Imam is a logical and historical possibility.
Which is of no use to anyone.

truth seeker100
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#13

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:03 pm

ya maybe he is a possibility in laga land, but notin real life

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#14

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:31 pm

SBM wrote:If you do not believe in any of these issues then you can not be a Dawoodi Bohra since you have to believe in Imam in Purdah and Dai talking to Imam regarding NUSS.
In one of my very first posts, I said that the Bohra belief in Hidden Imam is akin to a Muslim's belief in angels. Both are myths to greater or lesser extent.

While a Hidden Imam is a distinct possibility, angels are definitely a myth, and belief in them is unworthy of modern man. Yet Muslims believe in them and Al-Aleem, Al Rasheed anajmi will call you a Kafir if you call them a myth.

SBM
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#15

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:38 pm

So what would you call Jibrel, a hidden Imam or an Angel?

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#16

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:42 pm

SBM wrote:So what would you call Jibrel, a hidden Imam or an Angel?
A subjective reality for Prophet Muhammad and previous Prophets reported in scripture.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#17

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:45 pm

I said that the Bohra belief in Hidden Imam is akin to a Muslim's belief in angels.
Apparently, and unwittingly I might add, you are implying that bohras are not muslims. Unfortunately for you, bohras believe in angels as well. They just believe in other stuff which is not a part of the religion of Islam. That is why they have something called "Bohra religion"!!

A hidden Imam is of no use unless there is ilhaam. And since you do not believe in ilhaam, a hidden Imam actually serves no purpose. So, this is the problem with this "Bohra Religion". All kinds of people have all kinds of versions of it and none of it is Islam.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:53 pm

Al Rasheed anajmi will call you a Kafir if you call them a myth.
Actually, it is the Quran that calls you a kafir if you call them a myth.

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#19

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:08 pm

anajmi wrote:
I said that the Bohra belief in Hidden Imam is akin to a Muslim's belief in angels.
Apparently, and unwittingly I might add, you are implying that bohras are not muslims. Unfortunately for you, bohras believe in angels as well. They just believe in other stuff which is not a part of the religion of Islam. That is why they have something called "Bohra religion"!!

A hidden Imam is of no use unless there is ilhaam. And since you do not believe in ilhaam, a hidden Imam actually serves no purpose. So, this is the problem with this "Bohra Religion". All kinds of people have all kinds of versions of it and none of it is Islam.


Bohras may believe in whatever they fancy. I told you that that is their right.

As Bohras are Muslims, they also believe in angels. They believe that Imam is hiding and a Dai is his substitute. What is so un-Islamic about that? That Hidden Imam communicates with a Dai through dreams is a belief that does not appear un-Islamic either. But your bigotry is deep-seated hatred for any idea about Imam guiding a subset of Muslims, let alone a Hidden one.

There are definitely non-Muslim, as in non-Arab, aspects to Bohras.

Islam is diverse and incorporates many beliefs not originally rooted in 6th century Arab Islam. Bigots like you want to fashion all Muslims in one mold that you imagine is a utopian, pristine version of 'true' Islam. Only you do not recognize that you are a Wahabi dupe living a vicariously safe existence on this forum.

Carry on saving Bohras by shitting on them. You and Bohras on this forum deserve one another.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:15 pm

Bohras may believe in whatever they fancy. I told you that that is their right.
Sure, as long as they refer to it as "Bohra religion" I have no issues. Do not call it Islam.

There is a concept in Islam called Tawheed. It is the central piece of Islam. This hidden Imam and the Dai are corruptions of tawheed. Hence, the hidden Imam and the Dai are fully and completely un-Islamic. Then there is something called "shirk", which is also a common bohra practice associated with the Dai and the hidden Imam. Again, completely un-islamic. Doesn't look like you've heard of either.
Islam is diverse and incorporates many beliefs not originally rooted in 6th century Arab Islam.
These kinds of statements are normally made by people completely ignorant about Islam and you are one of those.

You are following "bohra religion" and that is not the religion of Islam. Well, you are following neither. So you are a bohra kafir too!!

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#21

Unread post by maethist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:49 pm

Al Aleem, Al Rasheed anajmi,

If you do not want to call Bohras Muslims that is fine with me. If Bohras want to call themselves Muslims, that is also fine with me.

You have a copyright on the word Muslim?

I do not care and do not mind if they call their Imam or Dai God. That is their affair and they are guaranteed their beliefs in the United States where I live.

If there is a jealous God, he will punish Bohras for creating partners with Him in the hereafter. In here (USA and liberal Western democracies) we respect their freedom to believe what they want and to worship who they want and to call themselves anything they want. Got that?

I suggest you persuade them to move to Wahabi-land where you can safely decapitate them.

anajmi
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#22

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:33 pm

If you do not want to call Bohras Muslims that is fine with me.
Good. Bohras follow a religion called "Bohra religion". They can claim whatever they like. I am simply stating the truth. I do not care if you agree with that or not. I don't actually care about what is fine with you and what is not. In the last 14 years, I have dealt with dozens of johnny come latelies like you who fizzle out in a few weeks. They have no conviction and no belief.
I do not care and do not mind if they call their Imam or Dai God.
I do not care about what you mind or do not mind. They can call their Imam or Dai God. But as long as this forum is free, I am going to keep stating the fact that it is un-Islamic. I do not care if you agree with that or not.
If there is a jealous God, he will punish Bohras for creating partners with Him in the hereafter.
Yes, and it is my job to warn them about it. You apparently, do not care if they are punished. I do.
If there is a jealous God, he will punish Bohras for creating partners with Him in the hereafter. In here (USA and liberal Western democracies) we respect their freedom to believe what they want and to worship who they want and to call themselves anything they want. Got that?
You should also respect my freedom to preach anything I want to anyone I want as long as I am following the law. Warning people that they are going to go to hell isn't breaking the law. Got that?
I suggest you persuade them to move to Wahabi-land where you can safely decapitate them.
Killing innocent people, even if they are stupid and ignorant like you, is haraam in Islam. I'd much rather let God deal with you through his angels as they see fit, which according to the Quran, sounds much worse.

maethist
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#23

Unread post by maethist » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:28 pm

anajmi wrote:
If there is a jealous God, he will punish Bohras for creating partners with Him in the hereafter.
Yes, and it is my job to warn them about it. You apparently, do not care if they are punished. I do.
If there is a jealous God, he will punish Bohras for creating partners with Him in the hereafter. In here (USA and liberal Western democracies) we respect their freedom to believe what they want and to worship who they want and to call themselves anything they want. Got that?
You should also respect my freedom to preach anything I want to anyone I want as long as I am following the law. Warning people that they are going to go to hell isn't breaking the law. Got that?
I suggest you persuade them to move to Wahabi-land where you can safely decapitate them.
Killing innocent people, even if they are stupid and ignorant like you, is haraam in Islam. I'd much rather let God deal with you through his angels as they see fit, which according to the Quran, sounds much worse.
Most self-hating Bohras will not discern gross arrogance and self-aggrandizement in these outbursts. Claiming to be "Nazeer Mubeen" to alleged Mushriks on this website is not going to affect 15-20% Shia in the world who are your target.

Wahabis clearly believe that the Shia are Mushriks and Kafirs and their holy shrines in Karbala and elsewhere should be destroyed. Extremists like ISIS want to destroy Prophet's 'tomb' in Masjid-e-Nabawi along with Imam Hussein's mazaar and kill any who may defend them.

My question to you is would you support destruction of Shia shrines which, according to you, are hotbeds for 'gross display of shirk' and purify God's earth for God's kingdom or would you let them be?

Take your stand towards its logical conclusion. Why not earn paradise by killing infidels? Your coreligionists would love you to do that. (Remember, according to your coreligionists, Shia are not innocent but guilty of the grossest crime of Shirk for which even God will not forgive them!)

Or you can take my stand and consider Shia praying to Imam Hussein is just as mythical as them and you praying to Allah. They are both figments of collective human imagination. I have no objection to them indulging in it as I have no objection in people watching Harry Potter movies, a product of modern myth.

anajmi
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Re: The hidden Imam

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:55 pm

As I have stated before, what you object to and what you don't object to is none of my concern. I do not care about what you stand for.
Most self-hating Bohras will not discern gross arrogance and self-aggrandizement in these outbursts. Claiming to be "Nazeer Mubeen" to alleged Mushriks on this website is not going to affect 15-20% Shia in the world who are your target.
And that is fine. I have managed to affect the shias that matter most to me. The rest, if they learn, good for them. If they don't, my hereafter is not the least bit impacted. God doesn't question my result, only my deeds and intent. You probably won't understand that concept.
My question to you is would you support destruction of Shia shrines
No. I do not support destruction of any shrines. You destroy one and two more will come up. I would just like to talk about their uselessness in the light of the Quran and the Sunnah. Of course, if you chose to create a shrine dedicated to a human in my house, then I will destroy it.
Why not earn paradise by killing infidels?
As I have stated before, killing innocent people who are not intending to harm you, infidels or not, is un-Islamic. But accepting that weakens your "stand". I am earning paradise without having to kill anyone. I much rather prefer it that way.


One should wonder about how a discussion about the uselessness of a hidden Imam always leads to the killing of people. Always and without fail. It is the perfect straw man for a loser.

maethist
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Re: The hidden Imam

#25

Unread post by maethist » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:18 pm

So if you go to warn a Shia of dire consequences in the hereafter of worshiping Imam and he says thanks but politely tells you that he is not interested, would you let him alone without abusing him with words like Kafir and Mushrik like you have been doing to me? Or are you going to insist on earning your God's pleasure by entreating him to participate on this website which is your only home on the internet so he can avail himself of your, no doubt, infinite wisdom?

anajmi
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Re: The hidden Imam

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:24 pm

So if you go to warn a Shia of dire consequences in the hereafter of worshiping Imam and he says thanks but politely tells you that he is not interested, would you let him alone without abusing him with words like Kafir and Mushrik like you have been doing to me?
Yes absolutely. I have done that many times and we remain friends. Of course, none of them has told me to go to wahabi-land and decapitate people either. Get the point?

Kafir and Mushrik is not abuse. It is a fact. You have denied the existence of God. Hence you are a kafir. Nothing abusive about that. One who associates partners with Allah is a mushrik. A simple fact. If you do associate partners with Allah, and you are sure that is the right thing to do, then being a mushrik would be a compliment no?

Do you not like being called a kafir? Why? Aren't you one? You call me a murderer even though I am not one correct? I am just calling you what you are!!

truth seeker100
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Re: In defence of the Silent Majority

#27

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:41 pm

maethist wrote:
SBM wrote:If you do not believe in any of these issues then you can not be a Dawoodi Bohra since you have to believe in Imam in Purdah and Dai talking to Imam regarding NUSS.
What kind of Dawoodi Bohra are you? First you tell us that we are self hating Bohras while you do not believe in the basic concept of Dawoodi Bohra Dawat?
You are more confused then I thought

You should consider me a non-Bohra.

I gave you a dispensation from being 'self-hating Bohra' because you have placed yourself outside the community.

all knowing, all righteous anajmi,

I already told you that a hidden Imam is a logical and historical possibility.
wow what a load of bs, no wonder you are a stupid athiest. to you God is not a logical possibility, but a hidden imam is!!!! you athiests truly are stupid, from all the bs you spit out I think it is logical to infer that your parents probably dropped you when you were a child

humanbeing
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Re: The hidden Imam

#28

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:52 am

maethist wrote:I already told you that a hidden Imam is a logical and historical possibility.


Yes ! A hidden Imam can be a logical possibility , it is a reaction to an action due to historical events. Hope you know the history of Mastur Imam going into seclusion / hiding and thereafter 21st Imam going into seclusion / hiding.

The Imam remained hidden so long, that it became a doctrine, belief around his existence. There is an explanation given by munira ben too; interesting discussion on why Imam are hidden :
Munira_RV wrote:To save from such abuse they are accessible to their missionaries only and to people in general till the time become appropriate. We have 53,000 + 3,000 + 7,000 years cycle. Before the 8000 year the Qayamat will come, exact date and time we do not know. We are currently at the tail end of that 7,000th year cycle, now, if I am not mistaken then from Aadam till date 7400-7600 years have passed, when Qayamat will come we do not know, but it will come before the 8,000th year happens. Auliya's have given signs for Qayamat, many of them are currently visible but were not few decades back. Due to cyclical effect - Imams remains in zuhoor or in state of concealment. But in either case they do their work through their missionaries or by self.
Another explanation I have, sources are; hearsay and random reference during sabak bayaans.

Imam will do zuhoor when the tally of Imams have reached 100. On the 100th Imam will be the day of Qayamat and the Imam will do zuhoor and save the mumineen from hell fire.

Few extremely high level intelligence sabaks, which only few selected rare geniuses make it by graduating through various sabak darjaahs are told that, SMB is an Imam.

And there is another theory from other Shia groups of Mystical Immortal Mahdi Imam returning to fight Dajjal and save the believers.

Which one of the religious beliefs and theory you would like to respect / defend or at least tolerate with scientific rationale of an atheist mind.

zinger
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Re: The hidden Imam

#29

Unread post by zinger » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:48 am

humanbeing wrote: Few extremely high level intelligence sabaks, which only few selected rare geniuses make it by graduating through various sabak darjaahs are told that, SMB is an Imam.
What nonsense! Who said this? the first time i heard such utter rubbish was on this site when some joker here was joking about how this "might be a possibility"
humanbeing wrote: And there is another theory from other Shia groups of Mystical Immortal Mahdi Imam returning to fight Dajjal and save the believers.
Correct me if im wrong, but its not just a Shia belief but a Christian and a Jewish belief too, about Christ arriving to save the world from the anti-Christ/Dajjal

Also, isnt the coming of Dajjal also mentioned by Prophet Muhammad (SAW)? Is that also a theory or a fanciful tale?

By the way, all Muslims, Shia AND SUNNI TOO believe in the coming of Dajjal

truth seeker100
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Re: The hidden Imam

#30

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:53 am

zinger wrote:
humanbeing wrote: Few extremely high level intelligence sabaks, which only few selected rare geniuses make it by graduating through various sabak darjaahs are told that, SMB is an Imam.
What nonsense! Who said this? the first time i heard such utter rubbish was on this site when some joker here was joking about how this "might be a possibility"
humanbeing wrote: And there is another theory from other Shia groups of Mystical Immortal Mahdi Imam returning to fight Dajjal and save the believers.
Correct me if im wrong, but its not just a Shia belief but a Christian and a Jewish belief too, about Christ arriving to save the world from the anti-Christ/Dajjal

Also, isnt the coming of Dajjal also mentioned by Prophet Muhammad (SAW)? Is that also a theory or a fanciful tale?

By the way, all Muslims, Shia AND SUNNI TOO believe in the coming of Dajjal
Correction zinger, even Muslims believe in the coming of Christ to fight the anti christ