kalim,
I am not mixing Aga Khani beliefs with the bohra beliefs. They are completely different. The Bohra believes that the Dai is taking them to heaven, not the namaz that he has allowed them to pray or the fasts that he allows them to keep. He has also instructed his followers to not to try and understand the quran.
The Aga Khanis believe that Aga Khan is going to take them to heaven and not the namaz that they have stopped performing or the fasts that they have stopped performing or the quran which is not on their list of books to read.
Intro
Re: Intro
The dai however is very comfortable with people getting extremely late for or even skipping namaz in lieu of a deedar. Everytime he is in town, people are unable to stick to namaz schedule.Originally posted by Kalim:
Yes, the da'is have claimed unprecedented powers for themselves recently, but they have never said abandon namaz or fasting.
Also, the dai lets this notion pass freely that his deedar is haqiqi haj (lets assume for a while that he is not the initiator of this idea).
Re: Intro
Anajmi: That is not fully accurate. The da'i does not have the authority to tell you not to pray namaz or not to fast. His permission is not required and he does not claim otherwise. In this scenario the Bohra outward practice of religion is very similar to that of the Sunnis. The Aga Khan does claim to have that authority, however.
The concept of walayat for the Prophet and the Imams descended from Fatmia is common to most Shia. Without this devotion you are not considered a good Shia. But the Imams and the dai's have never said that you are not a Muslim if you do not love them. For the Shia being a Muslim is only the first stage to establishing full Islam. For them, beyond simple genuflections lies an intellectual realm which is the essence of the quranic teachings. For me, the only thing that really distinguishes the Bohras from the Sunnis is this esoteric/intellectual aspect of religion.
Now it is very true that the last couple of da'is have corrupted this idea of walayat into a sort of fanatical personality cult directed to themselves. They have also personally profited from this idea. If they claim that only they can take you to heaven they profit more. This is one aspect of the present corruption which very often Dr. Engineer has highlighted. Once this idiotic personality cult dies the jamats will become free to manage their secular affairs as they chose fit. And yes more idiocy lies in deedar being haqiqi haj and other such foolish claims. But even then the da'is does not say just look at me and then there is no need to go to haj.
If understanding the quran means to read a translation then the present administration do discourage that. But I think this too is simply a way of the current da'i and his cronies way of taking control of knowledge. This is a failing attempt as any doctrinal work one wants one can now get quite easily. Also many Bohras I know in the US posses one or other translations. I have seen often that for the quran recitation in Ramadan many of my friends get a side-by-side Arabic and translated quran copy. So do not think that all Bohras have succumbed to this trick of these fools in power.
Anyway, Bohras are unique in that they are as committed to the sharia as all other Muslims but also understand that simple physical acts are not in themselves sufficient to lead a proper intellectual life. That is why I encourage you to at least read a few pages from the history of Imam Hakim. Such people, as found today, were around even in his time. So he asked Sayedna Kirmani to refute their views that sharia is not required. In fact, physical acts and intellectual understanding was emphasized exactly equally: no one is superior to the other. But there is a asymmetry: without physical acts there is no use of the intellectual aspects but one can still be a Muslim without the latter. So the problem the Bohras face is quite a recent one. The reformists all hope that once the da'is grand visions of his authority are gone we will be back to what the Fatimids originally stood for. But no one wants to "reform" into Sunnis.
The concept of walayat for the Prophet and the Imams descended from Fatmia is common to most Shia. Without this devotion you are not considered a good Shia. But the Imams and the dai's have never said that you are not a Muslim if you do not love them. For the Shia being a Muslim is only the first stage to establishing full Islam. For them, beyond simple genuflections lies an intellectual realm which is the essence of the quranic teachings. For me, the only thing that really distinguishes the Bohras from the Sunnis is this esoteric/intellectual aspect of religion.
Now it is very true that the last couple of da'is have corrupted this idea of walayat into a sort of fanatical personality cult directed to themselves. They have also personally profited from this idea. If they claim that only they can take you to heaven they profit more. This is one aspect of the present corruption which very often Dr. Engineer has highlighted. Once this idiotic personality cult dies the jamats will become free to manage their secular affairs as they chose fit. And yes more idiocy lies in deedar being haqiqi haj and other such foolish claims. But even then the da'is does not say just look at me and then there is no need to go to haj.
If understanding the quran means to read a translation then the present administration do discourage that. But I think this too is simply a way of the current da'i and his cronies way of taking control of knowledge. This is a failing attempt as any doctrinal work one wants one can now get quite easily. Also many Bohras I know in the US posses one or other translations. I have seen often that for the quran recitation in Ramadan many of my friends get a side-by-side Arabic and translated quran copy. So do not think that all Bohras have succumbed to this trick of these fools in power.
Anyway, Bohras are unique in that they are as committed to the sharia as all other Muslims but also understand that simple physical acts are not in themselves sufficient to lead a proper intellectual life. That is why I encourage you to at least read a few pages from the history of Imam Hakim. Such people, as found today, were around even in his time. So he asked Sayedna Kirmani to refute their views that sharia is not required. In fact, physical acts and intellectual understanding was emphasized exactly equally: no one is superior to the other. But there is a asymmetry: without physical acts there is no use of the intellectual aspects but one can still be a Muslim without the latter. So the problem the Bohras face is quite a recent one. The reformists all hope that once the da'is grand visions of his authority are gone we will be back to what the Fatimids originally stood for. But no one wants to "reform" into Sunnis.
Re: Intro
kalim,
Understanding the quran does not mean reading a translation. Understanding the quran means understanding the quran. Now in order to do that you may need to read a translation. Then so be it. Preventing someone from reading a translation is exactly the same as preventing them from understanding it. One can spin it anyway one can.
For eg. you encourage me to read a few pages from the history of Imam hakim, now which language am I supposed to read it in? A language that I can read and understand or the language in which it is written even if I can't read or understand it?
As far as the intellectual aspects of religion are concerned, I have no idea how to separate one from the other. I don't have a clue about where the physical aspects end and the intellectual aspects begin. I don't even know how to ask about it. Besides, do you think it would be wise of me to ask about intellectual aspects to the one who does not believe in the validity of the physical act in the first place?
Understanding the quran does not mean reading a translation. Understanding the quran means understanding the quran. Now in order to do that you may need to read a translation. Then so be it. Preventing someone from reading a translation is exactly the same as preventing them from understanding it. One can spin it anyway one can.
For eg. you encourage me to read a few pages from the history of Imam hakim, now which language am I supposed to read it in? A language that I can read and understand or the language in which it is written even if I can't read or understand it?
As far as the intellectual aspects of religion are concerned, I have no idea how to separate one from the other. I don't have a clue about where the physical aspects end and the intellectual aspects begin. I don't even know how to ask about it. Besides, do you think it would be wise of me to ask about intellectual aspects to the one who does not believe in the validity of the physical act in the first place?
Re: Intro
Anajmi: Simply reading a translation of the Quran will not get you understanding. Quran is not an ordinary book like a book on Imam Hakim's history. Even for people who do not accept its divine origin it is still can not be read without the context in which it is revealed. The Quran has centuries worth of commentaries (tafsir) written and these are essential for a proper understanding. Understanding goes beyond the simple meaning of the words, but even that is hard. Quranic Arabic is not the same old Arabic spoken on the streets, even 7th century streets. If it was so easy as pick up Yusuf Ali, read it, and say you have full understanding then why spend so much time writing tafsirs? Why are scholars continuing to write new ones and trying to debate relevant meanings in it? Why seek the hadith to clarify its meaning?
It is connected to the point of the physical act. Just reading the translation to understand literal meaning of the words is like the physical act of namaz, say. Of course this very much required: if you claim to be a Muslim and do not pray you are surely in deep trouble. But praying namaz just means reciting some suras in Arabic in some order at particular times by doing some particular physical action. You know what I mean. You are not required to understand why, for example, there are 3 rakats in one namaz and 2 in another. You can think of doing the act as the physical/literal meaning and understanding why you do it as the inner/tawil/tafsir meaning.
What the Bohras, following the Fatimids, claim is that doing the physical act (i.e. reading a translation, doing ruku-sujud etc) is required. No way out of it. But then as optional, but of equal importance, is to understand the real reason for the genuflection or the words. But there is no point in understanding the actually meaning if you do not first do the physical act, i.e. understand the literal text. So it false that Bohras are forbidden to read the translation: this is required but not enough.
The Aga Khani Ismailis believe there is no need for the physical acts if you understand the real meanings. This is where the two communities differ and why the Bohras are closer to the Sunnis.
What I mean by intellectual aspect is the philosophical developments which are based on the Quran. Unfortunately here the Sunnis and Shia, particularly the Ismailis, part company. Even though they may agree that, say, Yusuf Ali, is a good literal translation, there is very little consensus about who is the proper authority on the inner/tawil meaning. Each one wants to claim there own leaders as the one to approach. It is quite amazing, but, although not in written form, this Quranic philosophy has passed down 14 centuries among the Ismailis by oral tradition and copying of particular manuscripts. For the modern Bohras the Quranic philosophy is based in particular texts by Sayedna Moayad Shirazi and the early du'at in Yemen. The modern da'is have turned this on its head: pray, fast, go to haj, but grease my palms and then you can dispense of the philosophical understanding.
I can give some specific examples of this literal/philosophical divide later. But suffice it to note that even the current Sayedna discusses the Quranic text in his sermons very very often. Sometimes he says the literal meanings but less often he offers a tawil meaning. So it is also false that he does not encourage you to understand the Quran. But keep in mind this duality.
Yes, it is always valuable to learn from people who do not share your own belief systems. Often these people bring in a perspective which is quite different and reading/talking to them helps illuminate our own understanding. Also, often people who are neutral, in the sense they have no attachment to a particular dogma, have a better grasp of the overall picture than fanatical believers. For me, I can say without hesitation, I have learned more from people different than me. Otherwise I can just talk to myself.
I feel quite tired to repeat this again and again: the reformists to not want to throw out this aspect of the religion. They simply are seeking social justice and dignity for the common Bohras. The whole point for me to post anything at all was to clarify that Zahid Ali may give you a very false opinion of the Bohras as his book is more focused on the texts common with the Aga Khanis. No need to get blood boiling on either side on by-now irrelevant books.
It is connected to the point of the physical act. Just reading the translation to understand literal meaning of the words is like the physical act of namaz, say. Of course this very much required: if you claim to be a Muslim and do not pray you are surely in deep trouble. But praying namaz just means reciting some suras in Arabic in some order at particular times by doing some particular physical action. You know what I mean. You are not required to understand why, for example, there are 3 rakats in one namaz and 2 in another. You can think of doing the act as the physical/literal meaning and understanding why you do it as the inner/tawil/tafsir meaning.
What the Bohras, following the Fatimids, claim is that doing the physical act (i.e. reading a translation, doing ruku-sujud etc) is required. No way out of it. But then as optional, but of equal importance, is to understand the real reason for the genuflection or the words. But there is no point in understanding the actually meaning if you do not first do the physical act, i.e. understand the literal text. So it false that Bohras are forbidden to read the translation: this is required but not enough.
The Aga Khani Ismailis believe there is no need for the physical acts if you understand the real meanings. This is where the two communities differ and why the Bohras are closer to the Sunnis.
What I mean by intellectual aspect is the philosophical developments which are based on the Quran. Unfortunately here the Sunnis and Shia, particularly the Ismailis, part company. Even though they may agree that, say, Yusuf Ali, is a good literal translation, there is very little consensus about who is the proper authority on the inner/tawil meaning. Each one wants to claim there own leaders as the one to approach. It is quite amazing, but, although not in written form, this Quranic philosophy has passed down 14 centuries among the Ismailis by oral tradition and copying of particular manuscripts. For the modern Bohras the Quranic philosophy is based in particular texts by Sayedna Moayad Shirazi and the early du'at in Yemen. The modern da'is have turned this on its head: pray, fast, go to haj, but grease my palms and then you can dispense of the philosophical understanding.
I can give some specific examples of this literal/philosophical divide later. But suffice it to note that even the current Sayedna discusses the Quranic text in his sermons very very often. Sometimes he says the literal meanings but less often he offers a tawil meaning. So it is also false that he does not encourage you to understand the Quran. But keep in mind this duality.
Yes, it is always valuable to learn from people who do not share your own belief systems. Often these people bring in a perspective which is quite different and reading/talking to them helps illuminate our own understanding. Also, often people who are neutral, in the sense they have no attachment to a particular dogma, have a better grasp of the overall picture than fanatical believers. For me, I can say without hesitation, I have learned more from people different than me. Otherwise I can just talk to myself.
I feel quite tired to repeat this again and again: the reformists to not want to throw out this aspect of the religion. They simply are seeking social justice and dignity for the common Bohras. The whole point for me to post anything at all was to clarify that Zahid Ali may give you a very false opinion of the Bohras as his book is more focused on the texts common with the Aga Khanis. No need to get blood boiling on either side on by-now irrelevant books.
Re: Intro
ASA
To the point of Kalim, that Bohras are close to Sunni, I can tell you one thing, Bohras Namaz is almost 99% close to Sunni Namaz as compared to Jafferia faith. Bohras do combine DOhr/Asar and Maghrib/Isha but most of the Arkaans in Ruku and Sujud are exactly same while Jafferia have different duas.Even though I have difference with Kothar but one thing I have to credit them is that during month of Ramadan, they keep on repeating that Bohras should recite Holy Quran and ask them to Hifz the Last Sipara and as a matter of fact in the application for E Jamat card, it does ask how many Surahs you have memorized. So there are some positive changes and I do believe that changes can come from withtin and not by becoming a rebel without cause
I am optimistic that with Reform movment and taking positive steps, we have made some changes and more will follow. DEMOCRACY CANNOT BE FORCED UPON IT HAS TO COME FROM WITHIN ( only if Bush would have learned)
To the point of Kalim, that Bohras are close to Sunni, I can tell you one thing, Bohras Namaz is almost 99% close to Sunni Namaz as compared to Jafferia faith. Bohras do combine DOhr/Asar and Maghrib/Isha but most of the Arkaans in Ruku and Sujud are exactly same while Jafferia have different duas.Even though I have difference with Kothar but one thing I have to credit them is that during month of Ramadan, they keep on repeating that Bohras should recite Holy Quran and ask them to Hifz the Last Sipara and as a matter of fact in the application for E Jamat card, it does ask how many Surahs you have memorized. So there are some positive changes and I do believe that changes can come from withtin and not by becoming a rebel without cause
I am optimistic that with Reform movment and taking positive steps, we have made some changes and more will follow. DEMOCRACY CANNOT BE FORCED UPON IT HAS TO COME FROM WITHIN ( only if Bush would have learned)
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Muslim First
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Re: Intro
.
AS
Next time you go for Sabak, ask your Aalim to explain following Ayah
Q 3:7
He is the One Who has revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are decisive - they are the foundation of the Book - while others are allegorical. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief follow the allegorical part to mislead others and to give it their own interpretation, seeking for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. Those who are well grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; it is all from our Rabb." None will take heed except the people of understanding. (Tran. by Malik)
BTW I have posted this and dixcussion of it often.
51 Dai's have come and gone besides Imams. Please for God's sake put your Tawil of Qur'an on paper and share it with Ummah. They would not bacause Tawil is ever changin business.
AS far as I am concerned there are plenty of translations and Tafsirs for life time of learning.
Wasalaam
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KalimBut suffice it to note that even the current Sayedna discusses the Quranic text in his sermons very very often. Sometimes he says the literal meanings but less often he offers a tawil meaning. So it is also false that he does not encourage you to understand the Quran. But keep in mind this duality.
AS
Next time you go for Sabak, ask your Aalim to explain following Ayah
Q 3:7
He is the One Who has revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are decisive - they are the foundation of the Book - while others are allegorical. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief follow the allegorical part to mislead others and to give it their own interpretation, seeking for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. Those who are well grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; it is all from our Rabb." None will take heed except the people of understanding. (Tran. by Malik)
BTW I have posted this and dixcussion of it often.
51 Dai's have come and gone besides Imams. Please for God's sake put your Tawil of Qur'an on paper and share it with Ummah. They would not bacause Tawil is ever changin business.
AS far as I am concerned there are plenty of translations and Tafsirs for life time of learning.
Wasalaam
.
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Muslim First
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Re: Intro
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Kalim
Make sure you share it with us.
Jumaa Mabruk, Wasalaam
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Kalim
Make sure you share it with us.
Jumaa Mabruk, Wasalaam
.
Re: Intro
kalim,
There are enough translations of the quran available that have been approved by both the shia and the sunni authorities.
If the bohras had understood what they are reading during the namaz, and the best way to do that is to read a translation, the "understanding" would soon follow and then it won't remain a physical act anymore.
Syedna has translated the rives mentioned in the quran to Hazrat Hassan and Hazrat Hussein according to his own taawil. No wonder he doesn't want people to read a translation. They'll know how full of crap he is.
Also, the taawil of the bohra dai is never ever available in written form. Is there a reason for it? The first thing Allah said in the quran was "Read".
Besides is there a "taawil" understanding about why there is 2 rakats in one namaz and 3 in another? What ayah's taawil do the Ismaili use to not pray namaz at all?
There are enough translations of the quran available that have been approved by both the shia and the sunni authorities.
If the bohras had understood what they are reading during the namaz, and the best way to do that is to read a translation, the "understanding" would soon follow and then it won't remain a physical act anymore.
Syedna has translated the rives mentioned in the quran to Hazrat Hassan and Hazrat Hussein according to his own taawil. No wonder he doesn't want people to read a translation. They'll know how full of crap he is.
Also, the taawil of the bohra dai is never ever available in written form. Is there a reason for it? The first thing Allah said in the quran was "Read".
Besides is there a "taawil" understanding about why there is 2 rakats in one namaz and 3 in another? What ayah's taawil do the Ismaili use to not pray namaz at all?
Re: Intro
Dear MF and Anajmi,
First, tawil is in written form. The book Tawil al-Daim is the tawil counterpart of Daim al-Islam. Both books are written by Sayedna Qazi Noman. Unfortunately the Tawil al-Daim is still in Arabic. However, Dr. Engineer has a very good article on it. I could not find the link on this website but I am sure the Admin can post it or you can just google on it. Also, almost all haqaiq is also in written form. It is not changing everyday. That just show more ignorance. The tawil/haqiqat literature has not changed for several centuries now, particularly from the time of Sayedna Idris who codified the then available works in a stable form. The fact that you do not have access to it, or do not want to, does not mean it is not in written form.
Also, the issue about the Quranic verses you posted. I think MF knows very well what the answer any Shia would give. So I assume the reason you posted that was the usual trick to create confusion in the minds of those who do not know any better.
Finally, this discussion is about Bohra beliefs. As I said, and S. Insaf also mentioned in another post, the practice described in the Daim al-Islam is very similar to that of Sunnis. The topic of why the Aga Khan thinks namaz is not needed is not one I want to discuss. Maybe you should take it up with many of his die-hard follower on this board. Just to remind your own example: if you absolve yourself (correctly, in my opinion) from what the Saudis do then why should the Bohras be answerable for what the Aga Khan does?
First, tawil is in written form. The book Tawil al-Daim is the tawil counterpart of Daim al-Islam. Both books are written by Sayedna Qazi Noman. Unfortunately the Tawil al-Daim is still in Arabic. However, Dr. Engineer has a very good article on it. I could not find the link on this website but I am sure the Admin can post it or you can just google on it. Also, almost all haqaiq is also in written form. It is not changing everyday. That just show more ignorance. The tawil/haqiqat literature has not changed for several centuries now, particularly from the time of Sayedna Idris who codified the then available works in a stable form. The fact that you do not have access to it, or do not want to, does not mean it is not in written form.
Also, the issue about the Quranic verses you posted. I think MF knows very well what the answer any Shia would give. So I assume the reason you posted that was the usual trick to create confusion in the minds of those who do not know any better.
Finally, this discussion is about Bohra beliefs. As I said, and S. Insaf also mentioned in another post, the practice described in the Daim al-Islam is very similar to that of Sunnis. The topic of why the Aga Khan thinks namaz is not needed is not one I want to discuss. Maybe you should take it up with many of his die-hard follower on this board. Just to remind your own example: if you absolve yourself (correctly, in my opinion) from what the Saudis do then why should the Bohras be answerable for what the Aga Khan does?
Re: Intro
We believe Kalim is referrring to this article by Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer:
THE BOHRAS - RELIGION AND SPIRITUALITY
THE BOHRAS - RELIGION AND SPIRITUALITY
Re: Intro
Because it directly links to pagan idolworship. And so is Haj, Ramadan, Matam, etc. and other dramatic novelties that go along with them.Originally posted by Kalim:
The topic of why the Aga Khan thinks namaz is not needed...[/QB]
If Allah is omniscient, meaning all-knowing or having total and absolute knowledge, whilst being omnipresent, meaning present at all times, then what's the purpose of ritual prayers and supplications? And if Allah is omnipresent and as close to our jugular veins, then why the neeed of angelic body guards, messengers and scriptures? Isn't Allah omnipotent, meaning all-powerful, the al-mighty?
The concept of GOD is a hypothetical proposition, rather a philosophical, mystical one, nothing more. The word Allah comes from al-illah, the god, a male gender whose counter-part is Allat, a contraction of pre-Arabic al-ilÄ
Re: Intro
kalim,
We are talking about two different things. Besides, I don't think I want to get into further details of taawil.
And I am not sure why you are under the impression that I think bohras should be answerable for what the Aga Khan does. If I have created that impression, I wish to correct it. Bohras are most certainly not answerable for anything that the Aga Khan does. Only Aga Khan is answerable for whatever he does.
We are talking about two different things. Besides, I don't think I want to get into further details of taawil.
I don't think that is an apt analogy. There are far more similarities between myself and the saudis as far as religion is concerned than between the Bohras and the Aga Khanis.if you absolve yourself (correctly, in my opinion) from what the Saudis do then why should the Bohras be answerable for what the Aga Khan does?
And I am not sure why you are under the impression that I think bohras should be answerable for what the Aga Khan does. If I have created that impression, I wish to correct it. Bohras are most certainly not answerable for anything that the Aga Khan does. Only Aga Khan is answerable for whatever he does.
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Muslim First
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Re: Intro
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Br. Kalim
AS
This Tawil business by Dais is probably biggest con game ever hatched.
Fatimids set up shop in year 910. In 970 Mecca and Medena came under their control and ended in 1163. Since then Dais have ruled Bohras. Do you mean to tell me thy have not written down what they know of Taawil? Tawil is what you make-up.
Here is what Ali RA had to say about what secrets Prophet SAW told him:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib
AbuTufayl Amir ibn Wathilah reported: I was in the company of Ali ibn AbuTalib, when a person came to him, and said: What was it that Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) told you in secret? Thereupon he (Ali) was enraged and said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) did not tell me anything in secret, that he hid from people, except that he told me four things.
He said: Commander of Faithful, what are these?
He said:
Allah cursed him who cursed his father.
Allah cursed him who sacrificed for anyone besides Allah.
Allah cursed him who accommodates an Innovator (in religion).
Allah cursed him who changed the minarets (the boundary lines) of the land.
(Shahih Muslim 921)
So I believe Ali RA did not know any secrets of religion beyond Prophet SAW told him, and Prophet did not tell him anything more then what was told to others.
Now it is up to you believe in this Baatil stuff.
Wasalaam
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Br. Kalim
AS
This Tawil business by Dais is probably biggest con game ever hatched.
Fatimids set up shop in year 910. In 970 Mecca and Medena came under their control and ended in 1163. Since then Dais have ruled Bohras. Do you mean to tell me thy have not written down what they know of Taawil? Tawil is what you make-up.
Here is what Ali RA had to say about what secrets Prophet SAW told him:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib
AbuTufayl Amir ibn Wathilah reported: I was in the company of Ali ibn AbuTalib, when a person came to him, and said: What was it that Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) told you in secret? Thereupon he (Ali) was enraged and said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) did not tell me anything in secret, that he hid from people, except that he told me four things.
He said: Commander of Faithful, what are these?
He said:
Allah cursed him who cursed his father.
Allah cursed him who sacrificed for anyone besides Allah.
Allah cursed him who accommodates an Innovator (in religion).
Allah cursed him who changed the minarets (the boundary lines) of the land.
(Shahih Muslim 921)
So I believe Ali RA did not know any secrets of religion beyond Prophet SAW told him, and Prophet did not tell him anything more then what was told to others.
Now it is up to you believe in this Baatil stuff.
Wasalaam
.
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accountability
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Re: Intro
Kalim: The fatmid history, that I have read gives me a very different picture, on the contrary, your version complies with our basic beliefs and theology. Generally historians have not many good words for fatmid caliphs. If you can shed some light, on assumption of imamat by Ismail from his father Jaffer Sadiq. History has very different version of events. Where and how did we get this history?
In general Fatmid caliphs were very worldly monarchs, with palace intricacies and intrigues, in general history, none of fatmid caliph claim to be imam, as we believe them to be. Fatmid during their two + hundred years of governance, there is no mention of events of karabala. Imam Hussein and Imam Hassan’s name are not mentioned ever during their rule. Mualana Ali’s name also does not figure in their chronology.
I was just wondering, that how could fatmid imams be not aware of their own spiritual status?
In general Fatmid caliphs were very worldly monarchs, with palace intricacies and intrigues, in general history, none of fatmid caliph claim to be imam, as we believe them to be. Fatmid during their two + hundred years of governance, there is no mention of events of karabala. Imam Hussein and Imam Hassan’s name are not mentioned ever during their rule. Mualana Ali’s name also does not figure in their chronology.
I was just wondering, that how could fatmid imams be not aware of their own spiritual status?
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Re: Intro
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Br. AC
It is very easy to become leader. All you need is followers who adore you. I could give you many examples. In rural Gujarat there are many Pirs, some of them are hereditary Pirs. A fellow with whom I went to engineering college is now leader of a Hindu religious organization, not because of his Hindu Scholarship but because his father was Priest (Mahent) and he inherited his job. So brother Holiness is in the eyes of beholder. Remember Shiwaji is considered a Deity by many Hindus.
Read Khalif Hakim's history. I believe he had few nuts loose, still he is almost God to Drus and Kalim. Bohras put A.S. behind his name. In mainstream Islam (A.S.) is only used for Prophets.
Wasalaam
.
Br. AC
It is very easy to become leader. All you need is followers who adore you. I could give you many examples. In rural Gujarat there are many Pirs, some of them are hereditary Pirs. A fellow with whom I went to engineering college is now leader of a Hindu religious organization, not because of his Hindu Scholarship but because his father was Priest (Mahent) and he inherited his job. So brother Holiness is in the eyes of beholder. Remember Shiwaji is considered a Deity by many Hindus.
Read Khalif Hakim's history. I believe he had few nuts loose, still he is almost God to Drus and Kalim. Bohras put A.S. behind his name. In mainstream Islam (A.S.) is only used for Prophets.
Wasalaam
.
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Intro
From the post of MF
'Fatimids set up shop in year 910. In 970 Mecca and Medena came under their control'
Did fatimid ever ruled the present Saudi Arabia ?
'Fatimids set up shop in year 910. In 970 Mecca and Medena came under their control'
Did fatimid ever ruled the present Saudi Arabia ?
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Intro
.
Abridged History time line of Fatimid
909 Abdulla al-Shi succeeds in expelling Aghlabids
910 Ubeidulla-al-Mehdi becomes Khalif in al-Raqqada
970 Mecca and Medina recognize the Fatimid Khilafat
1094 Religious Schism divides Fatimids into Nizarites and Mustalites
1163 Fatimids downgraded to something like protectorate by an alliance with the Kingdom of Jerusalem
1171 Saladin brings down Fatimid Khalifat
Source: Sibylle Mazot in Islam-Art and Architecture
.
Abridged History time line of Fatimid
909 Abdulla al-Shi succeeds in expelling Aghlabids
910 Ubeidulla-al-Mehdi becomes Khalif in al-Raqqada
970 Mecca and Medina recognize the Fatimid Khilafat
1094 Religious Schism divides Fatimids into Nizarites and Mustalites
1163 Fatimids downgraded to something like protectorate by an alliance with the Kingdom of Jerusalem
1171 Saladin brings down Fatimid Khalifat
Source: Sibylle Mazot in Islam-Art and Architecture
.
Re: Intro
Here we go again. I seem to be repeating the same thing again and again. I believe our friend Muslim First has not learned much from the word "read". Or else he has forgotten what awaits hypocrites and trouble makers in the after life. So let me repeat once more.
1) The books of Tawil were written during the time of the Imams. Sayedna Qazi Noman, Hamiduddin Kirmani, Moyad Shirazi, Yakub al-Sijistani, Manusur al-Yaman, Jafa bin Mansur al-Yaman and many more were from the period of the Imams. Under the authority and guidance of the Imam they composed a vast corpus of books on fiqh, tawil and haqaiq.
Many manuscripts have survived in the Bohra and Aga Khani libraries. The final phase of haqaiq literature was developed in Yaman under the first few da'is. After a couple of centuries this literature was put into systematic forms and has not changed ever since.
As an example of the early existence of this literature is the fact that Al Ghazali had access to them and wrote a very long refutation ("The Incoherence of the Philosophers"). If the tawil works were not in written form how did he learn of them?
2) Which history books are you reading? Did I not say that most old histories are written on bases of Sunni sources hostile to the Fatimids? Please go to Amazon and buy a couple of good books: start from Farhad Daftary and follow on his references. Also, friend accty you are showing extreme ignorance about the Fatimids. Obviously running an empire is not a simple task. Palace intrigues, corruption and power hungry generals are around in all empires. Did not the prophet fight numerous battles? Should we call him worldly monarch just because he became the temporal head of the Arabs?
Also, the lineage of the Fatimids is from Fatima. Fatima is Ali's daughter. So obviously they acknowledged the decent from Ali. Idotic to think otherwise. There was some confusion about decent due the fact that three Imams (Abdullah, Ahmed and Hussain) were not known to the general public. However there was a network of da'is who propagated Islam on their behalf. The early da'is, under the supervision of Imam Ahmed wrote the Rasil Ikhwan al-Safa. The latest was da'i Abdullah al-Shii who was instrumental in securing North Africa and establishing the first phase of the Fatimid empire in Raqqada. Finally Imam Moiz established the empire with the capital in Cairo. By the time of Imam Mustansir the empire had reached its peak but soon went into a decline. This was the time when the literature of the dawat started transfer to Yaman under the supervision of Sayedna Moyad Shirazi. For this reason, the later Yamani phase was most influenced by Moyad Shirazi. After Imam Mustansir the only Fatimd Imams (who also ruled Eygpt) recognized by the Bohras are Imam Mustaili and Imam Amir. Traditionally Imam Tayeb is considered to be the last Imam of the zuhur and first Imam of the satr era.
3) Talking about con games: I think the biggest con in history is religion itself. Look at all the billions of people fooled for thousands of years. And I agree that anyone can become leader. If they did not have a few "nuts loose" how would they gather followers? One can say that for all prophets, Imams, da'is, gurus, Popes etc. No one is above this charge which Muslim First so nicely illustrated. Each should apply to his/her own leaders.
I am getting bored of this discussion as people involved are ignorant and do not desire to be otherwise.
1) The books of Tawil were written during the time of the Imams. Sayedna Qazi Noman, Hamiduddin Kirmani, Moyad Shirazi, Yakub al-Sijistani, Manusur al-Yaman, Jafa bin Mansur al-Yaman and many more were from the period of the Imams. Under the authority and guidance of the Imam they composed a vast corpus of books on fiqh, tawil and haqaiq.
Many manuscripts have survived in the Bohra and Aga Khani libraries. The final phase of haqaiq literature was developed in Yaman under the first few da'is. After a couple of centuries this literature was put into systematic forms and has not changed ever since.
As an example of the early existence of this literature is the fact that Al Ghazali had access to them and wrote a very long refutation ("The Incoherence of the Philosophers"). If the tawil works were not in written form how did he learn of them?
2) Which history books are you reading? Did I not say that most old histories are written on bases of Sunni sources hostile to the Fatimids? Please go to Amazon and buy a couple of good books: start from Farhad Daftary and follow on his references. Also, friend accty you are showing extreme ignorance about the Fatimids. Obviously running an empire is not a simple task. Palace intrigues, corruption and power hungry generals are around in all empires. Did not the prophet fight numerous battles? Should we call him worldly monarch just because he became the temporal head of the Arabs?
Also, the lineage of the Fatimids is from Fatima. Fatima is Ali's daughter. So obviously they acknowledged the decent from Ali. Idotic to think otherwise. There was some confusion about decent due the fact that three Imams (Abdullah, Ahmed and Hussain) were not known to the general public. However there was a network of da'is who propagated Islam on their behalf. The early da'is, under the supervision of Imam Ahmed wrote the Rasil Ikhwan al-Safa. The latest was da'i Abdullah al-Shii who was instrumental in securing North Africa and establishing the first phase of the Fatimid empire in Raqqada. Finally Imam Moiz established the empire with the capital in Cairo. By the time of Imam Mustansir the empire had reached its peak but soon went into a decline. This was the time when the literature of the dawat started transfer to Yaman under the supervision of Sayedna Moyad Shirazi. For this reason, the later Yamani phase was most influenced by Moyad Shirazi. After Imam Mustansir the only Fatimd Imams (who also ruled Eygpt) recognized by the Bohras are Imam Mustaili and Imam Amir. Traditionally Imam Tayeb is considered to be the last Imam of the zuhur and first Imam of the satr era.
3) Talking about con games: I think the biggest con in history is religion itself. Look at all the billions of people fooled for thousands of years. And I agree that anyone can become leader. If they did not have a few "nuts loose" how would they gather followers? One can say that for all prophets, Imams, da'is, gurus, Popes etc. No one is above this charge which Muslim First so nicely illustrated. Each should apply to his/her own leaders.
I am getting bored of this discussion as people involved are ignorant and do not desire to be otherwise.
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Intro
JP: For a breif period their allied governer was controlling mecca and medina.
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AFirmBeliever
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Intro
I didn't spill, one of you ASSUME and address me as male. huh..foolish Progressive...!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by tahir:
Of late, it has been a PET squeak of ortho bohras to pseudo-intellectualise their instinctive hate for reforms, throw a stone on this board and run away thinking that they created a ripple.
Typically, they would evoke their worldly success (with a halo on the face) to justify their beiliefs forgetting that others who do not share their believes attain equal (if not more) success.
Dear AFirmbeliever, I am afraid you failed to impress. All the best. And no, no one assumed your gender before you spilled it. It was you who assumed that we assumed. So look now who is assuming !
Re: Intro
Well, Good post everOriginally posted by kabeer19922001:
I have been visiting the site for the past several years. While I understand the need for anonymity, could we at least introduce ourselves with respect to our ages, sex and profession. This will put in context our posts.
As a Member I take opportunity to introduce Myself,
I am a 24 year old male
My Name Is MustaLee
I am a Proud Indian-Gujarati.
I belong to Fatimid Dawoodi Bohra a among true followers of daizzaman (TUS) and My eJamaat ID is 40%$^&$#.
I am a Communication Teacher by profession
I am working in on of the Arabian Gulf country for the past 3 years.
Thank You.
Re: Intro
Good Day. I'm a 43 yr old health care professional and entrepenuer originally from Karachi living in the US for the last 3 decades.
I'm from the Yamani family, and because of their close proximiy to Kothar and Burhanuddin, it precludes me from revealing my name, as it would cause untold horror for my family.
I'm from the Yamani family, and because of their close proximiy to Kothar and Burhanuddin, it precludes me from revealing my name, as it would cause untold horror for my family.
Re: Intro
Hi all
My name is Aarif. It looks like my original profile got corrupted and hence had to create this new ID. So please excuse the spelling of my ID..
I am 32 yrs old male from India. I currently live in USA.
Since my two master's degrees have become a talk of the site I will as well expose them.
I think the most knowledgeable dawoodi-bohra on this site is brother Porus. It would be a great pleasure to have his introduction as well...
My name is Aarif. It looks like my original profile got corrupted and hence had to create this new ID. So please excuse the spelling of my ID..
I am 32 yrs old male from India. I currently live in USA.
Since my two master's degrees have become a talk of the site I will as well expose them.
I think the most knowledgeable dawoodi-bohra on this site is brother Porus. It would be a great pleasure to have his introduction as well...
Re: Intro
I am 32, living in Gulf and belong to Mainstream Fatemi Dawoodi Bohra under the meesaq of Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb (TUS). See, if you reformists are not against bohra religion then basically you should come under meesaq of aqa maula and accept him as dai and respect him. Then only your akhirat will be secured. General corruption can be everywhere because this is world, and dai is controlling the dawat-e-hadiyah in best way possible under the guidance of imam-uz-zaman. Some peoples in several thousand khidmat guzars maybe corrupt but it does not mean that you call dai as corrupt etc. Rasuallah also had so many corrupt peoples around him. Evil 1,2 and 3 are best examples. So you will call rasulallah as corrupt? Maula always preaches rasuallah's shariat, namaaz, roza, zakat, hajj etc. and if you see him your heart will say that he is really an angel. I would advise you all "out of mainstream" reformists to take meesaq first, have faith on dai, learn religion with faith and your akhirat will be saved. In learning and discussing religion please remember that first you must have faith, then you ask question. And there is answer to every question. Maula always says that "if you recite kalama-e-shahdat with IKHLAAS, there is jannat for you" so ikhlaas is main thing or you call it faith.Originally posted by Kalim:
Again, I want to remind you: the reform movement is not about doctrinal issues at all. It is a social movement, trying to bring more dignity and self-governance to the Bohras and the jamaats. Yes, the da'is have claimed unprecedented powers for themselves recently, but they have never said abandon namaz or fasting. So we should be careful to make sure we do not get the Aga Khani beliefs mixed up with the Bohra ones
Secondly, every question cannot be answered to everybody. If, for example, you are a student of 2nd standard you cannot learn 10th standard books directly. Some peoples commented about tawil. I want to ask, are you really able to understand tawil like that???? Do you think your mind is prepared to learn or absorb it at this stage? Thats why religion is teached in steps like you study in school then high school etc. And nobody stops you from learning religion here. So many bohras attends sabaqs these days from normal sabaqs to tawil and higher and by learning their faith becomes even more strong
Re: Intro
regarding faith....unfortunately it cant be argued with logic.......so a hindu who believes in a demi-god with FAITH is also correct and u who believes the Syedna to be MASOOM ....is also correct......
i have asked this question to many conservatives b4 ...i will ask u too.....if u agree as most ppl here do...that there are corrupt individuals in the system...than y not have democratic functioning of the Jamaats....so that everyone is accountable...the Dai is our spiritual leader n no one has any problems in this regard...let the worldly matter be handled by democratically elected ppl who are accountable and answerable to the ppl
i have asked this question to many conservatives b4 ...i will ask u too.....if u agree as most ppl here do...that there are corrupt individuals in the system...than y not have democratic functioning of the Jamaats....so that everyone is accountable...the Dai is our spiritual leader n no one has any problems in this regard...let the worldly matter be handled by democratically elected ppl who are accountable and answerable to the ppl
Re: Intro
Yesssss here it isOriginally posted by makberi:
i have asked this question to many conservatives b4 ...i will ask u too.....if u agree as most ppl here do...that there are corrupt individuals in the system...than y not have democratic functioning of the Jamaats....so that everyone is accountable...the Dai is our spiritual leader n no one has any problems in this regard...let the worldly matter be handled by democratically elected ppl who are accountable and answerable to the ppl
Sorry to put a question on question, but thats neccessary. As you said "the Dai is our spiritual leader and no one has any problems in this regard", PLEASE ASNWER ME THAT DO YOU BELIEVE IN DAI as you said? If yes then why not take meesaq. Because meesaq and religion is nothing to do with jamaat functioning or dunyavi things. You will not take the whole jamaat in your grave. You will only go by yourself together with your religion and that only will serve you in your grave.
Question about jamaat functioning is secondary which i will answer after you reply on above question about dai
If you don't believe dai just because of jamaat functioning then i dont know what to say, maybe a lame excuse not to believe dai (i am sorry if my words are too hard)
So first question is about dai for which you give me a FIRM reply then we discuss further about jamaat functioning
Re: Intro
Truemumin
Let me introduce myself once again, I am from India and have been USA for more than 30 years.
I do belong to Jamaat and I carry e jamaat card as well as so called Green Chitthi. I do confront local Aaamil and because I believe I live in a free country which allows me to speak my mind and question, I do ask them. Problems are whenever you ask any question regarding the life style of any members of Kothar and interestingly if you ask them simple question like "why we do not talk about Syedna Burhanuddin Saheb's mother" they told me I am trouble maker and indirectly but using politically correct terms, not to come but at the same time telling me that they are not issuing a BARAAT since they know that it can cause problems in USA.
I have always said that changes can be made by staying in the system, examples are people in Iran who brought revolution against Shah from within.
Gandhi who drove British Raj by staying within India, it takes time. It took 91 years after the killing of Managal Pandey before British Raaj was destroyed.
So truemumin, next time ask your local Aamil some simple questions like why there are more Bohras begging and living in poverty during the reigns of last two Dais then ever before. Why is is ok to give crores of rupees to people like Narendra Modi or George Bush who have worst record against Muslims. Please enlighten us with the answers from Aamil
Let me introduce myself once again, I am from India and have been USA for more than 30 years.
I do belong to Jamaat and I carry e jamaat card as well as so called Green Chitthi. I do confront local Aaamil and because I believe I live in a free country which allows me to speak my mind and question, I do ask them. Problems are whenever you ask any question regarding the life style of any members of Kothar and interestingly if you ask them simple question like "why we do not talk about Syedna Burhanuddin Saheb's mother" they told me I am trouble maker and indirectly but using politically correct terms, not to come but at the same time telling me that they are not issuing a BARAAT since they know that it can cause problems in USA.
I have always said that changes can be made by staying in the system, examples are people in Iran who brought revolution against Shah from within.
Gandhi who drove British Raj by staying within India, it takes time. It took 91 years after the killing of Managal Pandey before British Raaj was destroyed.
So truemumin, next time ask your local Aamil some simple questions like why there are more Bohras begging and living in poverty during the reigns of last two Dais then ever before. Why is is ok to give crores of rupees to people like Narendra Modi or George Bush who have worst record against Muslims. Please enlighten us with the answers from Aamil