Have a Thought in This

[spot]

guest786,
the questions you pose regarding accountability is a whole other issue. there are arguments for and against it...your faith and choice decides which argument you choose to adhere to.

wajibat is required in islam and as a member of the bohra jamat. your aren't forced to pay...but if you choose not to...you are considered not a member of the bohra jamat.

the amount varies with the amil...if you can't pay or consider the amount you woe correct...stick with that argument...the amil will take it one way or another. however, i know for the majority of bohras what the amil asked is far lesser than what the person should woe...remember khums is 20%.

and yes if you want it to be between you and Allah...you don't have to do anything for the kothar...but then don't be apart of the jamat either.

2.5% is a made up number by the sunnis and some shias to make it convient for calculations.

niyaz is money collected for a meal of a particular occassion (like ashura, ramadhan, etc) it is based on the costs for meals every night during that time divided by the membership. this is a individual jamat cost (like sabil)..not of the religious wajibat.

you ask does the amil know where the money is from...he typically does ask this. if you say it is halal when it isn't...that your fault. if you say it is haram...he typically will not take it...but he will chatise you for collecting haram money in the first place.

regarding haj...if your not staying at the bohra rabat and going through the haj with the amir ul'haj of the bohra..you don't need anything from the amil. in the us, i think it $1000 for the haj and your plane ticket is about $1100..so a total of $2100. this assumes your clear. of course haj typically cost about $2500 if you go on a tour. take your pick.

[spot]

freudian slip

woe should by owe.

[anajmi]

spot,

The web site has deleted posts by brother muslim which pointed out that 2.5% is not a made up figure but is mentioned in traditions of Hazrat Ali as well. It is also mentioned in a hadith in Abu Dawood which you so like to use when talking about Female Genital Mutilation.

[Muslim]

2.5% is a made up number by the sunnis and some shias to make it convient for calculations.

Daaimul Islam mentions 3 times quoting the Prophet, Maulana Ali and Imam Jafar Sadiq respectively that the rate of zakat is one-fortieth or 2.5%.

Obviously this rate is irrelevant to the kothar in their extortion of taxes to the extent that they now think the figure must have been 'made up'.

Just one example of how kothari know-it-alls, in their defense of a corrupt clergy, are clueless about even the basics of their religion from their OWN books.

[anajmi]

I mentioned in a previous post, which got deleted because of the web server issues, that the kothar has completed corrupted the concept of zakaat.

There isn't a single Abde Moron that pays the actual 2.5% which is required. The sheep come to some agreement with the local thief and then they pay that amount. It does not matter to the bohras since they do not want the thief to get it all and it does not matter to the thief(Amil) since he is not collecting it in the name of Allah.

My mother has reached an agreement with the local Amil in which she pays Rs 5,000 as the zakaat and she get the safai chitti which apparently is the ticket to heaven. Of course, Rs 5,000 is nowhere close to the actaul 2.5% that I need to give. However since I am reformed I make sure I give the 2.5% to those who deserve it.

spot probably has an agreement with the local thief too and hence his ignorance about 2.5%

[Average Bohra]

I make sure I give the 2.5% to those who deserve it.

How do you ensure that it goes to those that deserve it ? Please post a list of where you <u>know</u> your Zakat money goes.

[anajmi]

Well, actually this year the amount of zakat I will be giving out will be close to Rs 75,000.

I am giving about Rs 15,000 to my aunt on my mother's side cause she does not have a steady income and her daughter i.e. my cousing is getting married so she needs some money.

I am giving about Rs 10,000 to my uncle on my mother's side who needs money to send his son to school.

My wife's mother has 3 relatives whose livelihood depends only upon donations from others so about Rs 15,000 will go to them.

Another Rs, 10,000 will go to the local hospital which needs medical supplies for those who cannot afford to pay for their medicine.

Every year I sponsor my sister's neighbour for her college education. That will take another Rs 5,000 to Rs 7,000.

The rest of the money is distributed by my mother and sister as they see fit to other's who need money and ask for it.

And believe me, I never have money left over that I cannot spend.

[anajmi]

For a moment there I wanted to say - "go do your own research", but I realized that would sound extremely stupid.

[amicusmellitus2]

Brother Anajmi

Do you think it would have been better if you did not give these details, or may be a purpose is served by these details. It is preferrabel that left hand should not know what right hand is giving.

wassalam

[anajmi]

brother amicus,

You are right. However the reason behind my giving out these details are different. It is important for people like Average Bohra to know how a muslim spends his zakaat money.

I am sure you have seen the discussion we had on the thread about whether zakaat is a tax or not where he tried to paint zakaat as a tax that was actually causing more harm than good, and that was because of his ignorance about zakaat.

I would infact appreciate it if more people listed how they spend their zakaat moneys.

I am not doing this to show off that I pay this much in zakaat. Nobody over here knows me. You'd be living next door to me and still not know me. The left hand does not know what the right hand is giving.

[spot]

br. muslim,
thank for educating me on the reference for 1/40 or 2.5%. my i ask the limitation of this part of zakat. i believe zakat at 2.5% is limited on gold, silver, or assets that are liquidable. a different percentage applies to inventory, stocks, posessions, etc.

khums is also in diam al'islam as 1/5 or 20%..and also required by shiah per Imam Jafar Sadiq.

and yes you are right...there probably isn't a bohra that does pay what is required of them.

in br. anajmi example he i'm guessing from the number he gave has net 3,000,000 rs. if you go by the actual amount

zakat (if all liquid assets) 75,000 rs
khums at 20% 600,000
kaffarah (this depends on fasts missed and sins to recount for)
zakat al'fitr (should have been paid by eid al'fitr)

so at minimum as a shiah br. anajmi should be giving 675,000 rs

as a side comment to br. anajmi...in my opinion, the donation to your relative shouldn't be considered as zakat. zakat has specific usages as you know and the only two that they come close to is fakir and miskin...which they (in my opinion) wouldn't be classfied as.

[anajmi]

spot,

First, we are talking about zakat. khums can be another discussion.

as a side comment to br. anajmi...in my opinion,

Second, your opinion does not matter. According to the ulema of islam zakat can be given to a relative on the side and not on the top or bottom, for eg, I cannot give zakaat to my sons or daughters or their sons or daughters and I cannot give zakaat to my parents or their parents. Uncles and aunts are allowed. Besides, I have listed all those who can receive zakaat as mentioned in the quran in another thread. Of course according to the kothar, they are the only ones eligible to recieving zakaat cause they are the biggest fakir/miskin!!

[spot]

br. anajmi,
i meant no offense in writing what i did...this is why i wrote it as MY OPINION. i apologize if it hurt you.

and firstly, we are taking about wajibat..not just zakat. and of course..according to imam jafar sadiq...all wajibat should be given to the amil to be given to the imam or his representative for distribution as they see fit.

i am not supporting use or non use of the khotar in this matter...just iterating the requirements for a shiah.

[mumineen]

We are given to understand that the Kothari priests are or have been demanding a "lagaa" of as much as $5000 (North Amercian) from the potential Haajis who go for Razaa or that infamous chhitthi. They have even refused chhitthis to those potential Haajis who qualify for yellow or red chhitthis in their estimation.

Can any one confirm this with their expereiences?

[anajmi]

br. spot,

Are you saying that the requirements of a shia supercede the requirements of the quran?

[mumineen]

"khomeinii times aya toll ya not to ask a question for a question but just to respond or reply?"

The Last Shah of Persia had a similar idiosyncracy and you know what happened to him? He lost his Peacock thrown to the Ayatollah Rohalla Khomeini.

It's not a Shia/Sunni or Quran thingi. It's a "moolla" thingi. I merely want a confirmation whether this is a general Kothari Bohra thingi.

[spot]

br. anajmi,
no, i am saying what is specified throughout the quran..not just in certain areas. khums and kaffarah are in the quran, zakat al'mal and zakat al'fitr are defined in the quran and the collection and further rules regarding it were clarified and defined by the prophet and the ahlul bayt as most of the practices of islam were done.

[spot]

br. anajmi,
i think i see a dilemma here in what you consider zakah.

zakah is not charity (ie sadaqah). sadaqah is charity which can be given to anyone needing it.

zakah al'mal and zakah al'fitr can only be given to the following:
Fakir - One who has neither material possessions nor means of livelihood.
Miskin - One with insufficient means of livelihood to meet basic needs.
Amil - One who is appointed to collect zakat.
Muallaf - One who converts to Islam.
Riqab - One who wants to free himself from bondage or the shackles of slavery.
Gharmin - One who is in debt (money borrowed to meet basic, halal expenditure).
Fisabillillah - One who fights for the cause of Allah.
Ibnus Sabil - One who is stranded in journey.

[anajmi]

br. spot,

Please point to me the ayahs in the quran which talk about these different types of zakaats and khums and kaffarah.

And if I hadn't been clear about what zakaat is, I would've been giving it to the kothari thieves!!

[anajmi]

And I agree with the people who are the right recipient of zakaat.

However if a person is not a miskin, you won't give him the zakaat money, similarly if you do not trust that the Amil will deliver your zakaat to those who deserve it, you are not supposed to give it to the Amil.

[Average Bohra]

Brother Anajmi,

Quote 1:

if you do not trust that the Amil will deliver your zakaat to those who deserve it, you are not supposed to give it to the Amil.

Quote 2:

Please point to me the ayahs in the quran which talk about [this]

I request that you use Quote 2 to answer Quote 1.

Thanks

[anajmi]

brother Average Bohra,

You are welcome to give your zakaat to any Amil you want. I was only talking about the smart ones.

[spot]

br. anajmi
there have been many discussion regarding the authentification of the zakats, khums, and other required items as part of wajibat. please look at even the threads you referenced.

and regarding your opinion..although i respect it, the directive of the prophet is to give it to the amil...whether you think he is corrupt or not. it is the responsiblity of the person in charge of the amil to decide his worth or credibility. this is according to both sunni and shiah fiqh when a political system of collection is in place (which bohras have).

[anajmi]

br. spot,

Actually, I do not need to look at the threads. I need to look only at the quran. The quran says give it to the one who is responsible for distributing it. Of course it doesn't say that you should not give it to the Amil if he is corrupt and not distributing it the way he should. That is why Allah gave us brains. You prefer not to use them, I prefer to use them.

And in any case as I mentioned, my mother does have an agreement with the local thief to give him Rs, 5,000 as zakaat. So I guess I am covered. So if Allah asks the Amil why he agreed for only Rs 5,000 instead of Rs 75,000, he will point to the Dai and say "throw that moron in hell, I just did what he asked me to"!!

[anajmi]

And if Allah asks me about my zakaat, I will give him the list I posted on this thread and also mention the Rs 5,000 extra that my mom gave to the local thief. An added bonus for me!!

[anajmi]

And the directive of the prophet cannot be different from the directive of the quran which says that the zakaat is for the following in you own words

Fakir - One who has neither material possessions nor means of livelihood.
Miskin - One with insufficient means of livelihood to meet basic needs.
Amil - One who is appointed to collect zakat.
Muallaf - One who converts to Islam.
Riqab - One who wants to free himself from bondage or the shackles of slavery.
Gharmin - One who is in debt (money borrowed to meet basic, halal expenditure).
Fisabillillah - One who fights for the cause of Allah.
Ibnus Sabil - One who is stranded in journey.

And Amil is just one of the eight recipients of the zakaat, and as it is for the rest, he should be properly qualified!!

[anajmi]

And if Allah asks the Dai about my zakaat and why he allowed the Amil to collect only Rs. 5,000 from anajmi instead of Rs. 75,000, the Dai will say - "Oh, that was enough for me for my hunting excursion in Tanzania."

[anajmi]

So in reality, by not giving zakaat money to a corrupt Amil, you will be saving both the Amil and the Dai from hell fire!!

[spot]

br. anajmi,
you can look at the quran...and the quran says to look in addition to the actions of the prophet. please do as you choose in either case...but do not argue that you are correct (it is your interpretation) which is not based on sunnah.

in your mother, my opinion, is that you are donating money as charity to her. charity is not zakat...it is sadaqah. if you consider the money zakat then you classifying your mother as a fakir or miskeen...which i don't think is your intent.

[anajmi]

br. spot,

You must be blind. You are unable to read what I am posting and you are unable to read what you yourself are posting. I only tried to save you, your Amil and your Dai from hell fire.

And please don't tell me that it is the sunnah of the prophet cause it is not. It is the sunnah of the corrupt Dai and the Amil.