Fatimi Imams from Muslima, all others only from bondmaid!

[disillusioned]

Hence, your perception is incorrect that because Molatina Shahar Banu father was non-believer so did his daughter! In light of above three examples it is proved that there can be cases where the immediate relative of the leader of Kafir can be Muslima, so did Molatina Shahar Banu.

Hmm.. if Molatina Banu's father (or mother, or both) were kafir, then doesn't she (and by extension, her offspring) have kafir blood in them?

[KA786110]

Still discussing this stuff. Can we just stop it and accept all mankind is off spring of Adam and Eve. Adam being the first prophet, that should make everyone equal at birth. Only our deeds matter to God. )
Yes Imams and Prophets are at higher level because of their spiritual position.

[humanbeing]

Yes, they are Islamic, which means ethical and moral, and during the Islamic rule they are legal. Remember only those non-Muslima can be made bondmaid who were arrested during/after the holy war they waged against Islam and defended by rightful Imam.

Marrying them too is allowed, post their conversion into Islam. But in context of Imam - he is the perfect human. He cannot be made of (blood and flesh) from mother whose own flesh/blood is made from haram food and drink (as non-Muslims dietary are not regulated by Islamic laws and they approve the eating/drinking of many things prohibited by Islam).

Wow ! that is quiet sick to know. can anyone from any school of islammic thought put some light on these ....

Sounds very brahminish from the caste system prevailed in India. these brahmins could fornicate with lower caste women and not obliged to marry them. Isnt quran against fornicators ? Isnt Islam against slavery ? and more as such keeping women as concubines or bondmaids however they were enslaved !! Does it not violate women's sanctity ? men had wars and women suffered sex slavery,, where is the justice ?

After all the above drama, if one embraces Islam, still they are not pure enough to give an Imam. Isnt everyone equal in front of allah, hopefully at least the muslims !!

So much for the compassion in the faith eh !! anyone, please correct me...

Stil waiting for some clarifications on the above points !!

[Munira_RV]

Wow ! that is quiet sick to know. can anyone from any school of islammic thought put some light on these ....

Sounds very brahminish from the caste system prevailed in India. these brahmins could fornicate with lower caste women and not obliged to marry them. Isnt quran against fornicators ? Isnt Islam against slavery ? and more as such keeping women as concubines or bondmaids however they were enslaved !! Does it not violate women's sanctity ? men had wars and women suffered sex slavery,, where is the justice ?

After all the above drama, if one embraces Islam, still they are not pure enough to give an Imam. Isnt everyone equal in front of allah, hopefully at least the muslims !!

So much for the compassion in the faith eh !! anyone, please correct me...

Prophet Mohamed s.a.w.w., Panjatan, 1/2/3, etc - all have slaves and bond maids with them. So it is very much Islamic and no one can do better justice than Panjatan and their actions are per command of Allah, so it is the benchmark of justice.

Check literature about inhumane behaviour done with Prisoner of Wars or people of opposite side abducted during war - and compare it with the treatment given my Islamic Shariyat (Fatimi Dawat) to PoW's = no torturing, giving proper food, cloth and shelter and just making them slave. And motivating strongly to Muslims to free slaves on numerous occasions. So Islamic (Fatimi Dawat) way is more humane than treatment given to POW's in history by non-Islamic countries/organisations.

By the way - Ithna Asheri have religious doctrine where any Ithna man can have intercourse with hundred of thousands of married women without marrying them and children born from it will not be liability of man nor the children will have any share in the asset of man (father). They call it Muta. This is indeed the worst inhumane tyranny on human being.

[humanbeing]

Prophet Mohamed s.a.w.w., Panjatan, 1/2/3, etc - all have slaves and bond maids with them. So it is very much Islamic and no one can do better justice than Panjatan and their actions are per command of Allah, so it is the benchmark of justice.

Check literature about inhumane behaviour done with Prisoner of Wars or people of opposite side abducted during war - and compare it with the treatment given my Islamic Shariyat (Fatimi Dawat) to PoW's = no torturing, giving proper food, cloth and shelter and just making them slave. And motivating strongly to Muslims to free slaves on numerous occasions. So Islamic (Fatimi Dawat) way is more humane than treatment given to POW's in history by non-Islamic countries/organisations.

By the way - Ithna Asheri have religious doctrine where any Ithna man can have intercourse with hundred of thousands of married women without marrying them and children born from it will not be liability of man nor the children will have any share in the asset of man (father). They call it Muta. This is indeed the worst inhumane tyranny on human being.

I have raised this query many a times in the past about muslims allowed to keep concubines ! I would like to encourage some more responses from other member as well such as anajmi, muslim first, fayyaz, porus, adam, etc.

Did abu bakar, uthman, omar, too had concubines ?

The reasoning given by munira_rv as well as some of my social friends is alarming and depressing. The ease with which they justified keeping concubines / bondmaids were shocking. In my simple, general humanist understanding I don’t see any compassion and justice in allowing such practice. Is keeping concubines referred / mentioned in Quran ?

I would like to ask women who are reading these posts, do they really support such practice ?

Why there is such a silence on this topic ?

[anajmi]

This can be easily explained. Yes Quran mentions concubines (as bond women - those which your right hand possesses). But the picture that we have in our mind about a concubine is a doll for sexual pleasure. Remove that picture from the head (which is not going to be easy) and then try to understand the reason behind it. Today, in wars, more women and children are killed than soldiers or "terrorists", but in earlier times wars were fought on the battle field. Women remained at the back. Men died. Women were left alone. The victors took them in to support them and their children. These were the concubines. In turn they worked for the men. There weren's women's homes or women's shelters in those times where the women could go. Today, because everything is viewed from a sexual prism, it becomes difficult for a man to support another woman without him being embarrassed about it. Hence, the women are now on their own. Being a bond women didn't make you any less of a woman. This idea only comes in the heads of fools like munirajanab. Ismail (as) was also born from a bond woman.

And you have to take into consideration the times that different people lived in. Today if a prophet were to appear and marry 11 women, he would be thrown in jail as a womanizer, but during the time of the prophet (saw) him marrying 11 women wasn't considered bad. You won't find even his enemies making a womanizing accusation against him. Only today do we hear these accusations.

What the prophet (saw) should've done 14 centuries ago, is not a condition people of today should lay down as they are living in a different century.

[kimanumanu]

That applies to every verse that gets used to justify actions of today. There has to be context but sadly that is forgotten.

[fayyaaz]

Apologists for the Quran use two arguments:

Practices unacceptable to current 'civilized' norms are defended by Muslims, other than Wahhabi extremists, by explaining that they applied only during the time of the Prophet in Arabia.

Acceptable practices are presented as universally applicable in all places and all times.

Quran mentions 'concubines' being those women with whom their owners can have sex without marrying them. Concubines could be 'won' in war or bought. They were 'rakhels'. Wives of the Arabs during the time of the Prophet, and even now among some Arabs, had no say in what their husbands did. They could take as many wives and concubines as they pleased. Quran restricted the number of wives to four at a time but not the number of concubines. And men could have multiple serial four-at-a-time wives. Divorce was easy for men to pronounce both pre and post Quran.

[anajmi]

Well, at least one good thing we can take away from this is that I am an apologist and not an extreme wahhabi.

Apparently, even amongst wahhabis we have an "extreme" wahhabi. I guess they follow Abdul "Extreme" Wahhab eh?

[anajmi]

In the western world, the civilized norm is to have sex with as many women as you please so long as you don't marry them or take them as your concubines or your rakhels. That way, at least you are not responsible for them or the bastards that you have from them. This is today's civilized norm.

[fayyaaz]

Practices unacceptable to current 'civilized' norms are defended by Muslims, other than Wahhabi extremists, by explaining that they applied only during the time of the Prophet in Arabia.

I have changed the above from "extreme Wahhabis" to "Wahhabi extremists" to better covey my meaning.

[anajmi]

More like to cover your exposed butt.

[fayyaaz]

In the western world, the civilized norm is to have sex with as many women as you please so long as you don't marry them or take them as your concubines or your rakhels. That way, at least you are not responsible for them or the bastards that you have from them. This is today's civilized norm.

No, that is not the 'civilized norm'. However the practice, I agree, is widespread among both men and women in the West and non-West. In these instances, men and women have consensual sex. Women are not booties of war nor are they bought in a market. I do not include prostitutes whom you can find in all societies in all times.

[SBM]

nor are they bought in a market. I do not include prostitutes whom you can find in all societies in all times.

Oh Really
Read on
You may know that in far-off countries, like Cambodia and India, children are prime victims for sex trafficking. You probably also know that trafficked workers are forced to toil for long hours, with little or no pay, to produce such everyday items as bricks and chocolate.

But what you may not know is how prevalent the crime of trafficking is right here in the U.S. and just how varied the victims are.

The $32 billion business of modern-day slavery coerces adults and children into the sex trade or into working against their will. Trafficking cuts across gender and ethnicity, with some slaves being brought to the U.S. with false promises of a better life. Others are often vulnerable citizens who may have been abused.

During National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month, we’re raising awareness about these unspeakable crimes in the hopes that one day we will no longer have to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/1 ... 90587.html
And another one
These ratings were determined by 7 factors:

The number of sexual partners you have had in the last year, multiplied by five.
The number of sexual partners you see yourself having in the next five years (realistically, not optimistically, and no greater than 30).
The number of one-night-stands you have had, multiplied by five.
http://www.floatingpath.com/2012/02/14/ ... omiscuity/

[fayyaaz]

nor are they bought in a market. I do not include prostitutes whom you can find in all societies in all times.

Oh Really
Read on
You may know that in far-off countries, like Cambodia and India, children are prime victims for sex trafficking. You probably also know that trafficked workers are forced to toil for long hours, with little or no pay, to produce such everyday items as bricks and chocolate.

But what you may not know is how prevalent the crime of trafficking is right here in the U.S. and just how varied the victims are.

The $32 billion business of modern-day slavery coerces adults and children into the sex trade or into working against their will. Trafficking cuts across gender and ethnicity, with some slaves being brought to the U.S. with false promises of a better life. Others are often vulnerable citizens who may have been abused.

During National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month, we’re raising awareness about these unspeakable crimes in the hopes that one day we will no longer have to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/1 ... 90587.html

Does what you describe count as the "civilized norm"' in the world?

[humanbeing]

but in earlier times wars were fought on the battle field. Women remained at the back. Men died. Women were left alone. The victors took them in to support them and their children. These were the concubines. In turn they worked for the men. There weren's women's homes or women's shelters in those times where the women could go.

Ohh that is so kind of the victors to support such women. Creating, establishing women shelters must be very difficult in those times ?

Did women want to be enslaved as concubines by their kind hearted masters ? does this support, care, affection and kindness required to have sexual relationships with them. As you mentioned we need to take this picture out mentally. Victors can have sex with them… while you are advising to take the sexual angle out of this discussion to understand this practice.

And you have to take into consideration the times that different people lived in. Today if a prophet were to appear and marry 11 women, he would be thrown in jail as a womanizer, but during the time of the prophet (saw) him marrying 11 women wasn't considered bad. You won't find even his enemies making a womanizing accusation against him. Only today do we hear these accusations.What the prophet (saw) should've done 14 centuries ago, is not a condition people of today should lay down as they are living in a different century.

How convenient !! when everyone practiced this kind and compassionate gesture, why would anyone point / accuse another.

[JavedhJuma]

Munira bahen I admire your knowledge so please help me understand the following:

Who was Mary the Copt and was she a Muslima prior to her union with the Prophet SAW? And who was Sophia the Prophet's other wife before she was captured in the war.

Thanks.

[Biradar]

Munira bahen I admire your knowledge so please help me understand the following:

Thanks.

Munira_RV is not a woman, as far as we can tell. He has morphed from Doctor -> Badri Janab -> Munira_RV. Perhaps he is going through tough times, and wants to get GRS.

[humanbeing]

This particular topic of concubines in Islamic era is discussed widely on internet. Most of the responses are apologetic; political reasons or concluded as allah’s command and responses are round and round. The common justification given was that it was a norm in those times to have slaves of different kinds and Islamic revolution bought humane reforms in regulations and ultimate abolishment of slavery steadily. it just sounds very absurd to have multiple marriages and concubine, rampant polygamous relationships. It just seems that it was all made so convenient for men to have women at a time, seems like men’s urges are well taken care of given religious justifications. I mean seriously, have multiple marriages, keep concubines and yet come out all compassionate, fair, loving, just, ideal best of human behavior etc etc etc. All in the name of taking care of downtrodden, widows , destitute and poor, save them from oppression and exploitation. Wow ! is it that hard to take care of women without making them bed partners in one form or another. And then it gets better in the name of “equality” that children born out of concubine is considered differently than muslima married wives.

[saminaben]

Why is gene pool of panjetan paak and therefore imaamat given so much importance in Fatemi theology? The good the bad and the evil come from all genetic pools and all families. We see that today in the so-called "Royal Family" - of course, both sides fingerpointing the other side as evil.

[fayyaaz]

Progress of social enlightenment and the freedom of individual has one fundamental lynchpin. It is the idea that all human beings are equal as far as their rights and opportunities are concerned. That in turn leads to a just political, judicial and power framework with mutually agreed set of laws.

Muslims with their supposed adherence to Quran are in conflict with this idea. Quran promotes personality cults by insisting that God has promoted some above others. Muslims thus promote some over others and begin to worship those that they thus promote. They know that leads to corruption but cannot abandon the Quran which they must do if they want to promote equality, a value Muslims do not much care about.

They want tyrants, despots, Imams, Dais etc to make their life hell on earth so they can delude themselves about having heaven in the hereafter.

Muslim world still has tribalistic, medieval mindset. They will need a millenium to catch up with the Western civilization in almost every scale. That includes spirituality, piety and religious enlightenment.

[anajmi]

Quran wasn't revealed to satisfy people. There are things in the Quran that you might not agree with. Either accept it as the word of God and move on or reject it and move on. Do not lay the burden on others to fully satisfy your needs.

They want tyrants, despots, Imams, Dais etc to make their life hell on earth so they can delude themselves about having heaven in the hereafter.

The irony is that, most of these tyrants and despots were installed by the western "civilization".

One needs to consider that if religion is not from God, but is man made, then all the problems that come with religion are actually also man made. People will always look for a better future. But all humans are not equal. And they will never be equal. Most will live out their lives hoping for a better future which will never come. Equality doesn't work. If all humans were equal, the world would stop functioning. Religion is the great leveler. It gives the hope of a better future to everyone.

And because of this hope, "developed" civilizations, like the western civilizations, take advantage of people by installing despots and tyrants to rule over people and steal their resources. And then there are some home grown tyrants and despots like Dais who tyrannize people in the name of hidden Imams.

So ultimately, everything is the fault of man. Not God or religion.

[anajmi]

Quran promotes personality cults by insisting that God has promoted some above others. Muslims thus promote some over others and begin to worship those that they thus promote.

Actually, Quran does no such thing. It is a purposely misinterpreted version of the Quran by those who wish to be worshipped. In fact, the Quran clarifies over and over again that no human is worthy of worship. Even prophet Mohammad (saw) is ordered to say in the Quran

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ 18:110

Say [O Prophet]: "I am but a man like all of you."

[Biradar]

Muslim world still has tribalistic, medieval mindset. They will need a millenium to catch up with the Western civilization in almost every scale. That includes spirituality, piety and religious enlightenment.

One should also add to this list: scientific, literary and cultural achievements. The basic mentality of Muslims has prevented them from looking at the world in a dispassionate manner, a key attribute to do science. This is not really a problem with Islam per-se, as the medieval Muslims did do important and interesting work. However, there is a continuous conflict between religious beliefs and things which science has shown to be true. This conflict can not be resolved at present, even in so-called liberal Islamic communities, and will have to wait till the time Muslims start viewing their scriptures as fallible and no longer a source of truth. This may never happen, and Islam may be cursed with being the reactionary force threatening humanity indefinitely.

But, coming to the topic of this thread. Munira_RV (Doctor, Badri Janab) claims that Fatimi Imams are from Muslima and all others from bond maids. First, this is another example of the stone-age mentality of orthodox bohras. Yes, he/she/it is not an Abde, but, as a matter of fact, is actually a bigger fanatic. For him/her/it such minor and trivial things are "Golden Truths", deciding the matter of correctness once and for all. Arguing with him/her/it is like arguing with a two year old about the tooth-fairy or trying to teach a toddler calculus. Pointless exercise, as their brains are not yet developed enough to understand the abstraction needed, as all they want is the candy to satiate their immediate desires. Of course Wahabbis/Salafis are also in the same boat, and perhaps the defining characteristic here is not Bohra v/s Salafi beliefs, but a simplistic certainty leading to fanaticism.

I would suggest people look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect for a potential explanation of why our resident fanatics (Bohra and Salafi) appear so stupid and illiterate to the rest of us.

[fayyaaz]

Quran wasn't revealed to satisfy people.

If the proof of pudding is in the eating, then Quran was definitely revealed to satisfy tyrants, despots and other pimps. They are the only ones who seem to 'satisfy' the followers of the Quran

If Westerners have set up these despots over Muslims, where is the their hope for overthrowing them ('their' despots) coming from? It comes from 'our' despots like al-Baghdadi and on this forum by Quran know-all pretenders like anajmi. Both these want Muslims to worship them despite their denials. Arrogant SOB's.

Muslims blame Westerners for their troubles but Quran offers them no guidance except more despotism. Where is the message of individual freedom and liberty in the Quran? Nowhere.

[Biradar]

Quran wasn't revealed to satisfy people.

If the proof of pudding is in the eating, then Quran was definitely revealed to satisfy tyrants, despots and other pimps. They are the only ones who seem to 'satisfy' the followers of the Quran

Actually, contrary to what our Salafi/Wahhabi extremist wants us to believe, the Quran was designed to satisfy people. In particular, it was designed to satisfy the initial conquests of the Prophet and make the Muslims believe that their slaughter and tyranny was sanctioned by god. This is not surprising, as people have always looked to the heavens to justify their lust for blood and power. No need to look beyond the Saudi State and the ISIS.

[fayyaaz]

Actually, Quran does no such thing. It is a purposely misinterpreted version of the Quran by those who wish to be worshipped. In fact, the Quran clarifies over and over again that no human is worthy of worship.

Actually, it says Allah has put some above others.

But then of course. "You should only follow my interpretation. That is the only correct one."

Yes, we have heard that before countless times. Go shove your interpretation up your @!*$

[fayyaaz]

I detect progress in anajmi. He says that the fault lies with Muslims not God. Good. God does not feature much anywhere. Better get on with that realization. Abandon Quranic tribalistic mindset.

[anajmi]

Actually, it says Allah has put some above others.

I am sure you will be able to pin point the surah and the ayah. I am wondering why you chose not to do it in the first place? Or in the second either!!

I detect progress in anajmi. He says that the fault lies with Muslims not God. Good. God does not feature much anywhere. Better get on with that realization. Abandon Quranic tribalistic mindset.

So instead of correcting the fault in our interpretations of the Quran, we need to abandon the Quran? You detect progress in anajmi, when I say there is no fault with the Quran, but then you go ahead and say abandon the Quran. Great suggestion!!

[anajmi]

Biradar seems to be contradicting himself with every other post. Everytime he says SMB (RA), he is proving himself to be a hypocrite. He says Quran was sent to satisfy people's blood lust and then he wants this same blood lusting God to shower his blessings on SMB. No wonder SMB turned out to be a tyrant that biradar and other abdes deserved. Talk about messed up wiring in your head!!