21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

[anajmi]

Bohras do not interpret Islam. They just agree with whatever crap the current living Dai feeds them and when you ask them why they do it, they quote St. Anslem. The Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) doesn't come into the picture.

The framework wouldn't be considered Islamic even by Ismailis cause then the living Aga Khani Imam is superior to your hiding Imam!!

[Biradar]

Thank you. Now go back and read your post and remove all references you have made to show how bohraism is Islamic. For eg. when you say Imam appointing Dai is the same as Allah appointing Nabi. It is not. Imam appointing Dai is an example of "Doxastic Closure" as it applies to Bohras only. It comes with a serving of pepto bismol.

It is not Quranic but I believe it to be within the Bohra framework or their interpretation of Islam. Bohras generally do not participate on this site so the subject cannot be developed by more knowledgeable Bohras.

The framework would not be considered Islamic by non-Ismaili Muslims. That has been known for at least a thousand years.

Actually, the framework use by Bohras and Ismailis (and also certain Shia groups) is Islamic. The problem really is that many people who call themselves "Muslim", like certain herbivorous animals, only eat the skin and not the fruit itself. Hence, they end up busy beheading others, blowing up buildings and being misogynistic, anti-intellectual, anti-human tyrants.

As to the proof of existence of god within the Islamic framework: it is simplest argument from creation. Certain groups may also propose versions of cosmological argument. One should remember that many of these arguments were formulated when there was no doubt about the existence of god. Only the reprobate rascals denied the existence of god. However, these days, these arguments are not very convincing, and rejecting them is a valid and tenable position to take.

Friend jockey asked if one can prove the concept of imamat from the Quran. Answer: Yes.

However, the herbivores think that the Quran is simply another book, and its meaning can be understood by just looking at the literal meaning of its verses. They do not recognize that the Quran is a book which is, in many ways, symbolic, and within it contains a taweel and a deeper haqaiq. Of course, there are many open declarations of Imamat too, but the herbivores make up excuses to ignore them.

[Biradar]

Bohras do not interpret Islam. They just agree with whatever crap the current living Dai feeds them and when you ask them why they do it, they quote St. Anslem. The Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) doesn't come into the picture.

The framework wouldn't be considered Islamic even by Ismailis cause then the living Aga Khani Imam is superior to your hiding Imam!!

Here we go, the resident serpent is spreading his poisonous lies again. Please, have you actually read or heard any waaz or sabaq, or books by leading Isamili da'is? I am not talking about the idiot usurper Muffi (LA) or his minions. Or have you read anything written by or under the guidance of the Imams? These are permeated by Quranic quotations and interpretations. There is a vast literature on taweel of the Quran written by leading da'is and scholars.

But, as a liar you will continue to spread your lies as you have been doing for the last 14 years. As the Quran say " … He (Allah) guides whom He wills on a straight path".

[fayyaaz]

Biradar,

I was not using St. Anslem's argument about the existence of God. I was just borrowing an aspect from within it to interpret 'superiority' of the living over the non-living beings. I take responsibility for applying this view to the current discussion. Unfortunately, the discussion could not be developed because of anti-kalaam stance of non-Bohras and anti-Bohras, particularly the extremely ignorant and verbose anajmi.

I agree that the full Bohra framework is Islamic in the sense that the Quran forms the basis for its interpretation. However, my view expressed in this thread is personal.

[anajmi]

So, since we can negate the junk posted in the last two pages of this thread, let me go back to my original question to Biradar.

He says

The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them.

My question was

Seriously? Can you explain how they are superior? Or even like the nabis mentioned in the Quran?

I am ok if you do not respond. You've had ample opportunity. I am going to assume that you might not believe in the Allah because a thousand year of research has led you to doubt his existence but do believe in a God that is living amongst you. Either SMS or SKQ might be your God. You are an idol worshipper.

[anajmi]

Or have you read anything written by or under the guidance of the Imams? These are permeated by Quranic quotations and interpretations. There is a vast literature on taweel of the Quran written by leading da'is and scholars.

My question to you is, did this reading lead you to doubt the existence of Allah or was it some other reading? Remember, if there is no Allah, then there is no taweel of the Quran. There can't be right? Does Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone have taweel in it? Well, only to the extent that J.K. Rowling makes it up as she goes along.

[anajmi]

Friend jockey asked if one can prove the concept of imamat from the Quran. Answer: Yes.

There is this joke about a brilliant kid on an airplane. The air hostess comes and asks the kid - "Can I help you?". The kids replies, "I don't know. Can you?".

Friend jockey got the right answer, but not the answer that he was looking for. He shouldn't be expecting anything that would actually make sense.

[ghulam muhammed]

In 526/1132, the 21st imam, Moulana al-Imam al-Tayyib SA chose complete seclusion and since then all imams, each appointed by his father and predecessor, have remained in seclusion./

GM bhai please explain to us what is meaning of it ?

The subject matter has been debated exhaustively on this forum since many years and there are varied opinions from people having interpretations based on their own school of thought. I do believe in the coming of Imam Mehdi (a.s.) but regarding the Bohra belief of Imam in seclusion being in direct touch with Bohra Dais and guiding him is totally unbelievable and ridiculous because the Imam who is believed to be from the progeny of one of the greatest torchbearers of Islam, Mola Ali (a.s.) can NEVER be in touch with a Dai who is materialistic and has taken his followers on a jolly ride in the garb of Islam thereby laughing all the way to the bank. His extravagant lifestyle, his vulgar display of wealth and flouting of Islamic tenets is very well documented on this forum.

[KA786110]

prove immanat from the quran, would love to see you try

If you are seriously interested in understanding Shia/Ismaili belief of imamat with references to Quranic verses then please refer to 'Ithbat al-imamah' of renowned Ismaili Dai Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani.

There is no point for me to labor and write all that up for just 'Bahas baraE bahas'. If you are truly looking to expand your knowledge and understanding of Imamat then go and look for that exceptional book. Maybe hard to find but not for the real seeker of knowledge.

[anajmi]

I have been trying to seek that knowledge over here on this board for 14 years. Every year some guy comes and tells us to go find some hard to find book to expand our knowledge. Why don't you guys come up with a book and make it easily available so that it is no longer hard to find. I am sure you can work with Biradar and Fayyaaz and create that easy to find book. You can quote references from the Quran and then we can have a debate about them.

Oh wait, we have done that already over here for over a decade. That is the reason why those books are now so hard to find. Because they all have been countered!!

[KA786110]

I have been trying to seek that knowledge over here on this board for 14 years. Every year some guy comes and tells us to go find some hard to find book to expand our knowledge. Why don't you guys come up with a book and make it easily available so that it is no longer hard to find. I am sure you can work with Biradar and Fayyaaz and create that easy to find book. You can quote references from the Quran and then we can have a debate about them.

Oh wait, we have done that already over here for over a decade. That is the reason why those books are now so hard to find. Because they all have been countered!!

Then you are not in need of convincing? Are you? For 14 years you have been frequenting this forum for what? Is Fayyaaz correct in his conclusion about your true purpose here?

If I was on a non-shia forum then I would try to elaborate further but I do think there is any need for it on this forum.

[anajmi]

No, I am not in need to convincing. I am convinced. But you better start making those hard to find books easily available for the not so convinced. Cause my books are easily available. And more and more of your brethren are now not so convinced.

[KA786110]

So again, what are you doing here on this forum for 14 years?

[anajmi]

Read some of my posts and you will know (a kind of reply that bro biradar would normally give).

[KA786110]

Read some of my posts and you will know (a kind of reply that bro biradar would normally give).

Sure.
Ducks another direct question.

[anajmi]

I learned that from the "intellectuals" like Biradar on this board.

[kseeker]

The question is simple: "21 imam has appointed other imam? confused".

The answer is also simple: "Yes". Thats all.

To elaborate. Unlike the ithna-ashari beliefs, the Imam is in seclusion (not "hiding") and lives a normal life span, appointing his successor before passing away. This succession is going on for eons and will keep going. Sometimes Imamat passes between brothers (like Hassan and Hussain, and Abdullah and Abu Talib, for example), but otherwise only from father to son. Before the 21st Imam, Imam Tayeb (AS) went into seclusion, his father, Imam Amir (AS), authorized Maulatona Hurratul Maleka to appoint the dua't mutlaqeen, to lead the dawaat after his assassination and the start of the period of saatar. The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them. In any case, the succession of imamat continues in the progeny of Imam Tayeb (AS). At some point in the future his descendant will reveal himself (will do zuhur), with the potential end of the era of Muhammad (SAW) and inauguration of a new era.

one correction there biradar. . Imamat did not go from abdullah to abu talib.. It went from Abdul mutatib to abu talib... abdullah was never an imam.. He died before Abdul mutatib so there was no way he ever had imamat.he was mustaqar though...but he was not an imam..same as prophet mohammed and ali.. Both were mustaqar but only ali was the imam... as far as i am aware, the only case of imamat breaking father son chain was hassan and hussain... that too due to the exalted positions of both ali and fatima... If they were to have 100 sons..All of them would have been mustaqar

[Sceptical]

He died before Abdul mutatib so there was no way he ever had imamat.he was mustaqar though...but he was not an imam..

Didn't Imam Ismail AS pass away before Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq AS ?

[kseeker]

He died before Abdul mutatib so there was no way he ever had imamat.he was mustaqar though...but he was not an imam..

Didn't Imam Ismail AS pass away before Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq AS ?

Nope.

[Sceptical]

Didn't Imam Ismail AS pass away before Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq AS ?

Nope.

Not sure.

Actually there are two versions :
1) Imam Ismail AS died before Imam Sadiq AS.
2) The death of Imam Ismail AS was staged by Imam Sadiq AS to protect him from Abbasid rulers.

Seems Bohras are folowing the first version. As nass was done upon Ismail AS - and Imam nass cannot be retracted - imamat should remain in his lineage, that's why we follow Imam Muhammad bin Ismail AS as 7th Imam.

[kseeker]

dawoodi bohra's follow the 2nd version.

[JavedhJuma]

Biradar wrote:
The question is simple: "21 imam has appointed other imam? confused".

The answer is also simple: "Yes". Thats all.

To elaborate. Unlike the ithna-ashari beliefs, the Imam is in seclusion (not "hiding") and lives a normal life span, appointing his successor before passing away. This succession is going on for eons and will keep going. Sometimes Imamat passes between brothers (like Hassan and Hussain, and Abdullah and Abu Talib, for example), but otherwise only from father to son. Before the 21st Imam, Imam Tayeb (AS) went into seclusion, his father, Imam Amir (AS), authorized Maulatona Hurratul Maleka to appoint the dua't mutlaqeen, to lead the dawaat after his assassination and the start of the period of saatar. Sorry brother biradar, that is nowhere in the history books by scholars. When Hazarat Amir was assassinated on the ship, his wife was with him, and pregnant with Hazarat Tayeb. Hazarat Amir said to his kafla that his wife was carrying a boy whom they should name Tayeb, and until he is born, his cousin Hafiz (and not even his brother), should rule until such time as Hazarat Tayeb is born. Huratul-Malaika was nowhere near at the time.

In other words, the belief that an Imam should be present in the world before the preceding Imam dies was abbrogated.Hafiz got greedy and sent Hazarat Amir's wife and other relatives to Yemen where Hazarat Tayeb was born and before he went into seclusion (that is the bohora belief and not the historians) he ordered Hura-tul-Malaika to appoint her son Zohaib as the first Dai. The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, I beg to differ. Dais blood line is totally different from the Nabis and Aimmahs where as all the Nabis trace their lineage to Adam AS. Imams trace their lineage to Hazarat Ismail the son of Abraham and thru Rasul SAW. Dais are missionaries, and according to Islam the first 3 Caliphas were like the Dais who called people to Islam so you cannot say they are superior to the Prophet SAW. and in another sense superior to them. In any case, the succession of imamat continues in the progeny of Imam Tayeb (AS). At some point in the future his descendant will reveal himself (will do zuhur), with the potential end of the era of Muhammad (SAW) and inauguration of a new era.

[james]

Don't you just love it? An Ismaili zero in knowledge of Islam and its tenets professes to speak about the Bohra history and fiqh.

JavedhJuma,

I think your Bohra friends have deserted you and in revenge you are attacking the Bohras here by bumping up old threads.

Coming back on topic,

JavedhJuma please read up on the "Sijil ul Bisharat" sent to Maulatena Hurrat ul Maleka RA on eve of Imam Tayyib AS's birth from Imam Aamir AS according to Bohra belief.Keep your skewed version of Bohra belief with you.

http://akhbar.mumineen.org/archive/awli ... -ahmad-qs/

[JavedhJuma]

James,

According to historians, Ivanov, Daftari, etc. who spent years doing research they deny what you are saying. If your version is true why aren't you guys putting it out for research.

According to Paul Walker, he went to India and requested your authorities to give excess to your manuscripts. They did not, but asked him what he wanted and they would provide photocopies. When they provided photocopies, Walker realised texts were altered and realised they were not copies of the original. Why?

Hey, why don't you throw this to Paul Walker and challenge him to do a research on this.

I am sorry, I do not buy what you are selling here. Anybody would change facts to favor themselves.

Malika was a good woman and had good relations with Fatimid Imams. She was in Yemen. Imam Amir was assassinated on a boat in Alexandria where his wife was pregnant with the baby. Baby was not born and according to Ivanow baby was a girl at birth and was born after Amir died.

Now, if the baby already was born (I doubt) the question is why did Hazarat Amir keep Hafiz in charge, and why did Hafiz kick the family out? Didn't the Imam know this would happen?

Also, if the baby was born and was a boy, and according to you was about 2 years old, why did Malika hide it from the community. Doesn't the community have a right to see the Imam?

Bohora history as shown by the Bohoras to the Bohoras and is for the Bohoras is not available to researchers. Why?

How much of Bohora Tayebi Ismailism has been made available to Harvard University where they have opened Ismaili Studies.
Don't you think you can contribute a lot to your version?

Why don't you make available to Institute of Ismaili Studies your manuscripts? Why do Hamdani, Poonawalla, Zahid Ali leave their treasures to Institute of Ismaili Studies and why are these three ex-communicated?

[ghulam muhammed]

Why don't you make available to Institute of Ismaili Studies your manuscripts? Why do Hamdani, Poonawalla, Zahid Ali leave their treasures to Institute of Ismaili Studies and why are these three ex-communicated?

Bohraism has its own fabricated and distorted versions of history duly twisted to suit their leader's agenda and hence they are NEVER available for scrutiny, moreover, most of the well known scholars and historians of the world are not interested in this miniscule community as they have much better things to do. Any bohra scholar who tries to do some research on Bohra history is faced with Baraat (ex-communication) as the Dai and his henchmen know that if they are not stopped or labelled as Muddai then they will open a can of worms which will topple the Sultan's empire which is built on falsehood.

[Munira_RV]

Bohraism has its own fabricated and distorted versions of history duly twisted to suit their leader's agenda and hence they are NEVER available for scrutiny

Prove your statement above, please.

How many years and kilometres have you invested to search for Fatimi Dawat literature that it still remain unavailable for your scrutiny?

[ghulam muhammed]

Bohraism has its own fabricated and distorted versions of history duly twisted to suit their leader's agenda and hence they are NEVER available for scrutiny

Prove your statement above, please.

How many years and kilometres have you invested to search for Fatimi Dawat literature that it still remain unavailable for your scrutiny?

I was replying to Bro javedjhuma but as you chose to interfere then please answer his queries first before continuing the debate with me.

James,

According to historians, Ivanov, Daftari, etc. who spent years doing research they deny what you are saying. If your version is true why aren't you guys putting it out for research.

According to Paul Walker, he went to India and requested your authorities to give excess to your manuscripts. They did not, but asked him what he wanted and they would provide photocopies. When they provided photocopies, Walker realised texts were altered and realised they were not copies of the original. Why?

Hey, why don't you throw this to Paul Walker and challenge him to do a research on this.

I am sorry, I do not buy what you are selling here. Anybody would change facts to favor themselves.

Malika was a good woman and had good relations with Fatimid Imams. She was in Yemen. Imam Amir was assassinated on a boat in Alexandria where his wife was pregnant with the baby. Baby was not born and according to Ivanow baby was a girl at birth and was born after Amir died.

Now, if the baby already was born (I doubt) the question is why did Hazarat Amir keep Hafiz in charge, and why did Hafiz kick the family out? Didn't the Imam know this would happen?

Also, if the baby was born and was a boy, and according to you was about 2 years old, why did Malika hide it from the community. Doesn't the community have a right to see the Imam?

Bohora history as shown by the Bohoras to the Bohoras and is for the Bohoras is not available to researchers. Why?

How much of Bohora Tayebi Ismailism has been made available to Harvard University where they have opened Ismaili Studies.
Don't you think you can contribute a lot to your version?

Why don't you make available to Institute of Ismaili Studies your manuscripts? Why do Hamdani, Poonawalla, Zahid Ali leave their treasures to Institute of Ismaili Studies and why are these three ex-communicated?

[JavedhJuma]

Brother James,

I read the article which was very interesting.

Something that caught my eye was: She took an oath from him that no Da`ii would pass away except that he would have conferred nas upon the next Da`ii.

Now, tell me something, has this always been true? Couple dais have passed away without designating their successors and you have had Dai Nazims. Am I wrong? Including the last dai.

2. One year previous to her own passing away, in the year 531 H, Molatena Arwa sent gifts of priceless jewels to Imam Tayyib including a testament of 7 pages signed by witnesses including one from Hind (India).

So she knew where the Imam was but was not willing to share him with people closest to her including the Duaats. Why? ?

3. Today, Mumineen’s level continues to be elevated; the thawaab of which belongs to the nurturing of this mother, Molatena Arwa (RA) and that of her progeny, Du`aat Mutlaqeen.





Her progeny? I guess that is from Dai Zoeb, who was her son, if I am not mistaken. Her progeny took leave after a while with the emergence of Bharmal and Tarmal in India. So to whom does the Thawaab belong to now?

These are highly confusing statements made by the writer and you want me to believe this and forget about the true Fatimid History as shown by the historians.

I think I am poking a lot of holes in your own statements.

As for us not knowing anything about Islam, you are wrong. Open another thread and I will be glad to poke holes in that too. Don't try to teach Islam to me/us.

We do not believe Dai to be superior to the Prophet SAW. Our Dai's are nothing but missionaries. We do not believe in our Dais or our Imams as Illahu al-Ardh.

There was no matam in Fatimi Imam's times after each farz and so we do not do that either. In fact during Fatimid time there was no matam and Ismailis did not observe Mohrram with Matam. Mohorram, according, to Walker was only for the twelvers as Fatimid Imams were very lenient to others beliefs. They did respect Mohorram but did not do matam. No Ismaili was allowed to participate in Ashura Julus. For once, read outside sources and broaden your horizons.

According to Walker, Fatimid Imams were so lenient that once a year, when Christians went to dip themselves in the Red Sea to renew their baptism, Ismailis were allowed to dip themselves in the water too but not to carry out the baptism, in order to show the Christians that they shared their joy.

I bet you did not know all this except what you are told by your own Mullahs who are ruining the community and splitting them with threats. Do you know any other community which is so maltreated! And is this Islamic?

Every step of the way you are asked to give money. Which community asks this from their followers?

Did Fatimi Dais and Imams do this to their flock. They took good care of their flocks.

I can go on and on but I am going to wait for you to try and poke holes in my beliefs.

Saying lanaats on your opposition and 1,2,3 during every Mohorram inside the Masjid is Islamic? Do you even know the meaning of Masjid? Ma+sjid = the place where you do your sajada. There is no place for lanat inside the Masjid.

So don't try to teach Ismailis Islam. We are very much Muslims!

[fayyaaz]

Mr JavedhJuma,

Are you not falling into the same trap as Sister Munira and Brother James? They have their version of events and you have your version.

I think it is best to accept all versions and not use one version to poke holes in another. I agree you can point out inconsistencies within each respective narrative, But you should keep them separate.

We know, for example, that Biblical and Quranic accounts of the stories of Prophets do not agree in all respects. Christians and Muslims have been at loggerheads about which one is correct. They are on to a hiding for nothing. I would accept both versions with respect when I discuss with them their respective 'holy' books, even though, I personally believe both of them to be complete bunk.

[JavedhJuma]

Brother Fayyaz,

The difference between their versions and my version are:

I have not been dictated to keep my mind closed. I read a lot and in this day and age, I cannot accept that all Imams were born of Muslimas and none were born of non-Muslimas or born of maids. So I showed them what I read and I want them to prove me wrong. What is wrong in debating without imposing our beliefs on each other.

There is a lot of research on the subject and it is proved from Imam Hussein's wife to Fatimid Imam Muiz's wife some women were non-Muslimas. Also, Imam Zainul Abeidin's mother was bought as a maid. What is the big deal. They gave birth to future Imams. This is what Allah SWT wished. He doesn't see who is Muslima and who isn't. It is the Soul of the person that matters. But this is beyond their comprehension.

Hey, Hazarat Ishmail AS (Hazarat Ibrahim's son) was born of a concubine!

Then we have James, who has been calling others kafirs unless they subscribe to his beliefs. He called my whole community as un-Islamic.

These people are like frogs in a pond. It is a shame.

I am not imposing my belief on anybody, and I would not accept anybody to impose theirs on me. If I read some shallow belief, I will stand up and put my two cents worth. In the end, it is up to them to accept or not.