Dear Believer,
Why did you even reply...you neither read my post or replied to it in totally.
Exactly what are you saying, that Safai Chitti has nothing to do with how you dress outside the mosque ? If so, then you are wrong. I am not speaking of baraat, but Safai Chitti. When it is reported to the Aamils, or more importantly to the $hieks, you get yellow carded, as long as you are paying.
---I cannot without a doubt saying your false. If this was true...90% of the bohras are yellow or red! Read my previous post...what I reported I have seen myself.
"That does not make your point, it simply means that in your Jamaat people are more liberal and don't report these people to the $hieks or of course the Aamil."
---if that is your argument..than 90% of the amils and jamat around the world are liberal!!! In Mumbai, a vast majority of the bohras don't wear topis, don't wear kurta, etc.
Born Again Bohras
Re: Born Again Bohras
my apologizes,
in response to Believer I wrote
---I cannot without a doubt saying your false.
it should be
---I CAN without a doubt saying your false.
in response to Believer I wrote
---I cannot without a doubt saying your false.
it should be
---I CAN without a doubt saying your false.
Re: Born Again Bohras
If this was true...90% of the bohras are yellow or red!
...and they may very well be. Why argue when you don't know the statistics or facts surrounding this issue. I know for a fact from personal relatives being yellow carded for their dress code outside the mosque.
Perhaps you should research this issue first ?
...and they may very well be. Why argue when you don't know the statistics or facts surrounding this issue. I know for a fact from personal relatives being yellow carded for their dress code outside the mosque.
Perhaps you should research this issue first ?
Re: Born Again Bohras
Believer,
I have researched just from personal experience...just like you. But I have seen and lives in jamats from America, UK, Africa, India, Pakistan. I have relatives who are also shiekhs and mullahs. None of these (except where it is publicly accepted) wear these things outside the masjid. None of them are yellow colored for there clothes. In the same issue, a yellow colored safai chitti doesn't prevent you from gaining access to any religious institution (masjid, markez, musafirkhana, ziyarat, etc). So what is your reference??
I have researched just from personal experience...just like you. But I have seen and lives in jamats from America, UK, Africa, India, Pakistan. I have relatives who are also shiekhs and mullahs. None of these (except where it is publicly accepted) wear these things outside the masjid. None of them are yellow colored for there clothes. In the same issue, a yellow colored safai chitti doesn't prevent you from gaining access to any religious institution (masjid, markez, musafirkhana, ziyarat, etc). So what is your reference??
Re: Born Again Bohras
qiyam,
Force is a force is a force - any which way you cut it.
The Quran has made certain things binding on believers but it has not given anyone, even the prophet, the authority to enforce the 'rules'.
If Sayedna wishes to impose 'rules' he can do it as a leader of a private cult - which is what dawoodi bohras have become - and not as part of Quranic sanction.
Your assertion that "force was not need before" is an escape hatch, not an argument.
You say: "Again where is your life controlled"
The control is political and psychological, subtle and not so subtle.
Political because, the enforcer has the power and authority over whom he is doing the enforcing. This creates a situation of privilege on one side and of powerlessness on the other - and it doesn't make the least bit of difference if the justification for all this is "religious".
Psychological because, forcing people to do certain things leads to a habit of mind. In this case an unquestioning, slavish attitude to authority figures. Once these values are internalised you've a perfectly pliant psyche ready to do the bidding of the "leader". Then you don't require "force" to make people behave. This is the current condition of Bohras. They have been made so complaisant that they would even go to bed with their topis on and see nothing wrong with that.
Force is a force is a force - any which way you cut it.
The Quran has made certain things binding on believers but it has not given anyone, even the prophet, the authority to enforce the 'rules'.
If Sayedna wishes to impose 'rules' he can do it as a leader of a private cult - which is what dawoodi bohras have become - and not as part of Quranic sanction.
Your assertion that "force was not need before" is an escape hatch, not an argument.
You say: "Again where is your life controlled"
The control is political and psychological, subtle and not so subtle.
Political because, the enforcer has the power and authority over whom he is doing the enforcing. This creates a situation of privilege on one side and of powerlessness on the other - and it doesn't make the least bit of difference if the justification for all this is "religious".
Psychological because, forcing people to do certain things leads to a habit of mind. In this case an unquestioning, slavish attitude to authority figures. Once these values are internalised you've a perfectly pliant psyche ready to do the bidding of the "leader". Then you don't require "force" to make people behave. This is the current condition of Bohras. They have been made so complaisant that they would even go to bed with their topis on and see nothing wrong with that.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Humsafar,
"Your assertion that "force was not need before" is an escape hatch, not an argument"
--I did not say this...I said the what you consider items forced on you now, was accepted as general practice of Islam before.
Again your entire argument is basis to begin with...you keep pushing this FORCE that is applied to the entire community, every hour of every day, from when they wake to sleep...THAT JUST DOESN'T EXIST BUT IN YOUR MIND.
If you consider requiring people to wear a particular dress in the religious institution, than you have absolutely no islamic ethos. A religious institution, like a masjid, requires a certain level of reverance and decorum. You don't go to a job interview wearing jeans and a t-shirt...nor should you go to a place of worship or a religious gathering in the same dress. It a level of decorum that would fit what the Prophet wanted from his sunnah...remember the wajib stuff.
"Your assertion that "force was not need before" is an escape hatch, not an argument"
--I did not say this...I said the what you consider items forced on you now, was accepted as general practice of Islam before.
Again your entire argument is basis to begin with...you keep pushing this FORCE that is applied to the entire community, every hour of every day, from when they wake to sleep...THAT JUST DOESN'T EXIST BUT IN YOUR MIND.
If you consider requiring people to wear a particular dress in the religious institution, than you have absolutely no islamic ethos. A religious institution, like a masjid, requires a certain level of reverance and decorum. You don't go to a job interview wearing jeans and a t-shirt...nor should you go to a place of worship or a religious gathering in the same dress. It a level of decorum that would fit what the Prophet wanted from his sunnah...remember the wajib stuff.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Qiyam,
I have relatives who are also shiekhs and mullahs.
If you are drawing your conclusions of everyday Bohra realities from $hiekhs and Mullahs, that would explain some of your posts.
a yellow colored safai chitti doesn't prevent you from gaining access to any religious institution (masjid, markez, musafirkhana, ziyarat, etc).
Then its only purpose is intimidation by the $heiks and Mullahs.
I have relatives who are also shiekhs and mullahs.
If you are drawing your conclusions of everyday Bohra realities from $hiekhs and Mullahs, that would explain some of your posts.
a yellow colored safai chitti doesn't prevent you from gaining access to any religious institution (masjid, markez, musafirkhana, ziyarat, etc).
Then its only purpose is intimidation by the $heiks and Mullahs.
Re: Born Again Bohras
qiyam
You can distort and deny facts till the cows come home, but truth is that the Quran gives nobody the authority to enforce rules and tenets - even within religious institutions. The very concept of force militates against the basic principle of Islam - which is submission to allah on your own free will, on your own volition.
The BABs have subverted this principle to mean submission to sayedna/kothar.
There is no compulsion in religion, the Quran says. More so, there is no compulsion in following the "rules" - in the sense that nobody has the authority to force you to follow the rules. Let Allah be the judge.
If Bohra clergy insists on imposing a strict dress code, maatatm, vajibaat etc. its for reasons other than religion.
By the way, has it occurred to you that Bohras are probably the only Islamic sect to impose such a regime on its followers? Doesn't it strike you as odd?
Anyway, this is my last response to you on this subject - you do not get tired of repeating yourself, I do. You may have the pleasure of having the last word - whatever its worth.
You can distort and deny facts till the cows come home, but truth is that the Quran gives nobody the authority to enforce rules and tenets - even within religious institutions. The very concept of force militates against the basic principle of Islam - which is submission to allah on your own free will, on your own volition.
The BABs have subverted this principle to mean submission to sayedna/kothar.
There is no compulsion in religion, the Quran says. More so, there is no compulsion in following the "rules" - in the sense that nobody has the authority to force you to follow the rules. Let Allah be the judge.
If Bohra clergy insists on imposing a strict dress code, maatatm, vajibaat etc. its for reasons other than religion.
By the way, has it occurred to you that Bohras are probably the only Islamic sect to impose such a regime on its followers? Doesn't it strike you as odd?
Anyway, this is my last response to you on this subject - you do not get tired of repeating yourself, I do. You may have the pleasure of having the last word - whatever its worth.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Believer,
No I myself am not a shiekh or mullah...and only a few of my relatives are. I pointed that out to give a range of people that you claim doesn't apply to. Your claim is false bohras regardless of being titled or not. The was the point of bringing that up.
So again..what is your point???
No I myself am not a shiekh or mullah...and only a few of my relatives are. I pointed that out to give a range of people that you claim doesn't apply to. Your claim is false bohras regardless of being titled or not. The was the point of bringing that up.
So again..what is your point???
Re: Born Again Bohras
Qiyam,
You will not get my point because you don't want to. My point is that the Safai Chitti system is {ab}used to penalize people who don't dress "appropriately" even outside the mosque. Your example stated that your $hiek relatives are excluded from this, and I am not surprised, and I agree that they probably are.
Enough said, this is getting argumentative.
You will not get my point because you don't want to. My point is that the Safai Chitti system is {ab}used to penalize people who don't dress "appropriately" even outside the mosque. Your example stated that your $hiek relatives are excluded from this, and I am not surprised, and I agree that they probably are.
Enough said, this is getting argumentative.
Re: Born Again Bohras
You did raise another interesting point though. If the Yellow Card does not prevent you from doing anything, what is the purpose of issuing it ? Is the criteria for the various color codes documented, or is it entirely subjective ?
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Humsafar,
You are now going down a road leading to heresy.
"basic principle of Islam - which is submission to allah on your own free will, on your own volition."
--This is partially correct...but once you take the shahadah...you must adhere or at least accept all the principles of Islam. This includes the wajibs things. This is also a basic principle of Islam.
"Quran gives nobody the authority to enforce rules and tenet"
---Wrong...this was the entire purpose of the Prophets and the Imams. Your making claims that have absolutely no basis. The Prophet and Imams when they had authority over the muslims...did enforce the rules and tenets of Islam (read a little of what the Fatimi state was like). Please stop making things up to support your view.
"Bohras are probably the only Islamic sect to impose such a regime on its followers"
---Ever heard of the twelvers, tabligh jamat, naqshabandi, all sufi sects,...learn a little before making stupid claims. Even the sunnis have minimum requirement for being in the masjid.
You have the reproachable habit. You ask me constantly to support what I preach...I do. Yet when I ask you...you make claims based on nothing. Even the ones I picked out here are totally false and not based on Islam at all.
You are now going down a road leading to heresy.
"basic principle of Islam - which is submission to allah on your own free will, on your own volition."
--This is partially correct...but once you take the shahadah...you must adhere or at least accept all the principles of Islam. This includes the wajibs things. This is also a basic principle of Islam.
"Quran gives nobody the authority to enforce rules and tenet"
---Wrong...this was the entire purpose of the Prophets and the Imams. Your making claims that have absolutely no basis. The Prophet and Imams when they had authority over the muslims...did enforce the rules and tenets of Islam (read a little of what the Fatimi state was like). Please stop making things up to support your view.
"Bohras are probably the only Islamic sect to impose such a regime on its followers"
---Ever heard of the twelvers, tabligh jamat, naqshabandi, all sufi sects,...learn a little before making stupid claims. Even the sunnis have minimum requirement for being in the masjid.
You have the reproachable habit. You ask me constantly to support what I preach...I do. Yet when I ask you...you make claims based on nothing. Even the ones I picked out here are totally false and not based on Islam at all.
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Muslim First
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Re: Born Again Bohras
.
Shirt (Any Color-Full sleeve or Half Sleeve0
Pants below Knee any color
Topy or any head cover even kerchief will do
In USA
Topy optional- They tolarate T shirts with printed logos.
Wasalaam
.
Minimum Requirement in IndiaEven the sunnis have minimum requirement for being in the masjid.
Shirt (Any Color-Full sleeve or Half Sleeve0
Pants below Knee any color
Topy or any head cover even kerchief will do
In USA
Topy optional- They tolarate T shirts with printed logos.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Qiyam, I see you are still splitting hairs and pulling teeth on this forum. You may have noticed I do not respond to your drivelanymore.
Do you remember why Gandhi burnt the ID card which was issued to him and other colureds and blacks when he was living in South Africa? If you did not understand his point then you will not understand anything. Bye
Do you remember why Gandhi burnt the ID card which was issued to him and other colureds and blacks when he was living in South Africa? If you did not understand his point then you will not understand anything. Bye