IMAM
Re: IMAM
Just as a side note, we all know that the jews, represented by Lord Sharon and his worshippers, and the christians, represented by Bush Almighty, are working together against the Muslims. So if the Messiah were to come for either the jews or the christians, the Muslims will have to win the current struggle against the jews and the christians and start oppressing them!!
Re: IMAM
Agreed.
Imam is Haq and he will come to rescue, no matter from whichever religion, but he will represent the oppressed and poor and slaves..!!! I believe it will be upon Imam to prove himself and make all believe in him.
Just a note: Current Dai is NO representative of Imam, because if he is, I will have no faith in Imam.
Imam is Haq and he will come to rescue, no matter from whichever religion, but he will represent the oppressed and poor and slaves..!!! I believe it will be upon Imam to prove himself and make all believe in him.
Just a note: Current Dai is NO representative of Imam, because if he is, I will have no faith in Imam.
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
Dear anajmi,
I think Bush and Sharon are not to be blamed for Muslims' problems. Muslims are to be blamed themselves. They are ignorant, and ignorance is a breeding ground for hatred, jealousy and low self-esteem. There is no unity among Muslims and they never stop fighting among themselves. Shias and Sunnis fight all the time. They kill each other in Masjids and Pakistan where Bush and Sharon have no jurisdiction. Shias will criticise Sunnis and other minority Shias. Each sect believes his religion is true Islam and calls others non-Muslims. Who gives them the right to judge? Muslims are barbarious and interpret the Koran to serve their own agendas as we have seen recently. I think before we blame others for our problems we should take a stock of our ownself. Our Muslim brothers have brought our Beloved Prophet and Islam to shame.
I think Bush and Sharon are not to be blamed for Muslims' problems. Muslims are to be blamed themselves. They are ignorant, and ignorance is a breeding ground for hatred, jealousy and low self-esteem. There is no unity among Muslims and they never stop fighting among themselves. Shias and Sunnis fight all the time. They kill each other in Masjids and Pakistan where Bush and Sharon have no jurisdiction. Shias will criticise Sunnis and other minority Shias. Each sect believes his religion is true Islam and calls others non-Muslims. Who gives them the right to judge? Muslims are barbarious and interpret the Koran to serve their own agendas as we have seen recently. I think before we blame others for our problems we should take a stock of our ownself. Our Muslim brothers have brought our Beloved Prophet and Islam to shame.
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
Dear Mal,
As regards the coming of the Imam, dear Mal, how can human beings like us, who are constantly at each other's throats recognise him? History has shown that Very few people accepted prophets, while others abused them or killed them. Even members of the Prophets families rejected them, as in the case of Hazarat Ebrahim, Noah, etc.Imams have been rejected and killed as in the case of Mowla Ali, who although had been dclared as Walli of the Prophet S.A.W. by the Prophet himself, most of the Ummah rejected him and in the end killed him and IMam Hussein.
ONly a handful of Shias accepted the Imams and his progeny. The Prophet has said in hadith "Whoever dies, not knowing the Imam of his age, dies in ignorance". The exact Arabic word used is Jahaliya" Does that mean when we die without seeing our Imam we will die such a condemned death? Or is the Imam here and we are ignorant of his presence, or we refuse to accept him and are abusing and cursing him...!!! In Sura 17, Verse 71Holy Qur’an - 17:71. one day we shall call together all human beings with THEIR
(respective) IMAMS: those who are given their record in their right
hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly
in the least. s p c -- 17:72. but those who were BLIND IN THIS world,
will be BLIND in the hereafter, AND MOST ASTRAY FROM THE PATH.[Pooya/Ali Commentary 17:71]
The book mentioned here is the record of deeds every individual will carry with him or her on the day of judgement. It will be visible to all. All human beings will appear with the guides (imams) they followed in their lives in the world. to give account of their deeds and faith. Blessed are they who follow the true guides (imams) of the Ahl ul Bayt, chosen by Allah and appointed by the Holy Prophet. The Holy Prophet said:
"Verily I am the Imam among you. After me, Ali will be your Imam. After him, his sons in his progeny will be your Imams. Whosoever remains attached with them shall be saved and shall obtain salvation. Those who disassociate themselves from them shall go astray and will certainly be lost."
So, either follow the thoroughly purified (Ahzab:33) Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt who are the fountain-head of guidance, mercy and wisdom, so that you go before your Lord on the day of judgement with them as your Imams, or run after those who themselves were in need of guidance.End of Pooya Ali's commentary.
I think this is a serious matter.
As regards the coming of the Imam, dear Mal, how can human beings like us, who are constantly at each other's throats recognise him? History has shown that Very few people accepted prophets, while others abused them or killed them. Even members of the Prophets families rejected them, as in the case of Hazarat Ebrahim, Noah, etc.Imams have been rejected and killed as in the case of Mowla Ali, who although had been dclared as Walli of the Prophet S.A.W. by the Prophet himself, most of the Ummah rejected him and in the end killed him and IMam Hussein.
ONly a handful of Shias accepted the Imams and his progeny. The Prophet has said in hadith "Whoever dies, not knowing the Imam of his age, dies in ignorance". The exact Arabic word used is Jahaliya" Does that mean when we die without seeing our Imam we will die such a condemned death? Or is the Imam here and we are ignorant of his presence, or we refuse to accept him and are abusing and cursing him...!!! In Sura 17, Verse 71Holy Qur’an - 17:71. one day we shall call together all human beings with THEIR
(respective) IMAMS: those who are given their record in their right
hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly
in the least. s p c -- 17:72. but those who were BLIND IN THIS world,
will be BLIND in the hereafter, AND MOST ASTRAY FROM THE PATH.[Pooya/Ali Commentary 17:71]
The book mentioned here is the record of deeds every individual will carry with him or her on the day of judgement. It will be visible to all. All human beings will appear with the guides (imams) they followed in their lives in the world. to give account of their deeds and faith. Blessed are they who follow the true guides (imams) of the Ahl ul Bayt, chosen by Allah and appointed by the Holy Prophet. The Holy Prophet said:
"Verily I am the Imam among you. After me, Ali will be your Imam. After him, his sons in his progeny will be your Imams. Whosoever remains attached with them shall be saved and shall obtain salvation. Those who disassociate themselves from them shall go astray and will certainly be lost."
So, either follow the thoroughly purified (Ahzab:33) Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt who are the fountain-head of guidance, mercy and wisdom, so that you go before your Lord on the day of judgement with them as your Imams, or run after those who themselves were in need of guidance.End of Pooya Ali's commentary.
I think this is a serious matter.
Re: IMAM
Dear Africawala,
If I say that Muslims are not responsible for the chaos in Israel, Israelis themselves are, will you agree with me?
If I say that when Sunnis kill Shias, the Shias themselves are responsible for it, will you agree with me?
I don't have a clue why educated Muslims like yourselve get off on the idea that Muslims themselves are responsible for their problems??
Yes to a certain extent each one of us is responsible for our own problems, but I am sure that is not what you meant!!
Now if I were to say that Muslims are not responsible for 911, Americans themselves are, will you agree with me?
I think Bush and Sharon are not to be blamed for Muslims' problems. Muslims are to be blamed themselves.
If I say that Muslims are not responsible for the chaos in Israel, Israelis themselves are, will you agree with me?
If I say that when Sunnis kill Shias, the Shias themselves are responsible for it, will you agree with me?
I don't have a clue why educated Muslims like yourselve get off on the idea that Muslims themselves are responsible for their problems??
Yes to a certain extent each one of us is responsible for our own problems, but I am sure that is not what you meant!!
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
.
Br.Africawala
It is good to read what other side has to say abour Imaamat. Please understand that majority of Muslims have rejected the concept of Shia Imaamat. Even within Shia there are divisions. I suggest you read what Sunni argument is. Here are few links;
.
Who is True Imam Mahdi?
That is predicted in the Ahaadeeth of Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws)
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/mehdavis/wh ... _mahdi.htm
.
How to Approach the Shia Brothers/Sisters -
A Straight Forward Logic Instead of a Never Ending Debate
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/how ... rother.htm
.
Quran VS. Shia !
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/quran_vs_shia.htm
.
THE QURAN AND THE IMAMAH
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/qur ... imamah.htm
.
Wasalaam
.
Br.Africawala
It is good to read what other side has to say abour Imaamat. Please understand that majority of Muslims have rejected the concept of Shia Imaamat. Even within Shia there are divisions. I suggest you read what Sunni argument is. Here are few links;
.
Who is True Imam Mahdi?
That is predicted in the Ahaadeeth of Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws)
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/mehdavis/wh ... _mahdi.htm
.
How to Approach the Shia Brothers/Sisters -
A Straight Forward Logic Instead of a Never Ending Debate
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/how ... rother.htm
.
Quran VS. Shia !
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/quran_vs_shia.htm
.
THE QURAN AND THE IMAMAH
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/qur ... imamah.htm
.
Wasalaam
.
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
If there is an INDICTMENT to be made, it is quite extensive: Bush/Cheney & the multi-national corporations who use western "armies" to cynically advance THEIR agendas; Sharon and his zionists (such GOOD jewish fascists); the pampered Saudi's who have hypocritically UNLEASHED wahabbi intolerance upon the rest of humanity; and ALL of the violent besmirchers of Islam's peaceful and cultural legacy....INCLUDING those who exact violence in "monetary" forms as I indicated above.
IN THIS context then, let us consider the doctrine of Imam and/or "mahdi":
First of all, do we even acknowledge that ALLAH MAY (i.e. HAS THE RIGHT TO) appoint a guide among his people? Then certainly we can accept that it just might be the people, even the so-called majority of "believers", in times like this who are the OBSTACLE to his guidance or appearance! With regard to ALLAH the Merciful, there is not the slightest lack of favor or mercy. As I have CONSISTENTLY tried to explain on this board, the benefits of the existence of the Imam are NOT arbitrarily limited to his "outward" guidance of people! The existence of a pure Imam certainly has OTHER benefits, which may not even be evident to the vast majority. In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE, even if we don't personally "see" him. So the right guidance of Islam AND the protection of the worthy IS undertaken by the Imam, even (and perhaps especially) during times of supposed occultation.
IN THIS context then, let us consider the doctrine of Imam and/or "mahdi":
First of all, do we even acknowledge that ALLAH MAY (i.e. HAS THE RIGHT TO) appoint a guide among his people? Then certainly we can accept that it just might be the people, even the so-called majority of "believers", in times like this who are the OBSTACLE to his guidance or appearance! With regard to ALLAH the Merciful, there is not the slightest lack of favor or mercy. As I have CONSISTENTLY tried to explain on this board, the benefits of the existence of the Imam are NOT arbitrarily limited to his "outward" guidance of people! The existence of a pure Imam certainly has OTHER benefits, which may not even be evident to the vast majority. In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE, even if we don't personally "see" him. So the right guidance of Islam AND the protection of the worthy IS undertaken by the Imam, even (and perhaps especially) during times of supposed occultation.
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
Dear Muslim First,
"Now if I were to say that Muslims are not responsible for 911, Americans themselves are, will you agree with me? "
My response:
No, because you have not given me a reason. The hijackers were Muslims who have always blamed Americans and Israelis for their problems. Also, do you say that the 3,000 innocent people
who died on 9/11 were responsible for Muslims problems?
"If I say that Muslims are not responsible for the chaos in Israel, Israelis themselves are, will you agree with me?"
My response:
No, because it takes two to Tango.
And when you are ignorant you are at a more disadvantage.
"If I say that when Sunnis kill Shias, the Shias themselves are responsible for it, will you agree with me?"
No, not unless you tell me why Shias are responsible for being killed by Sunnis and who gives them the right to kill. Why would any human being want to take another human being's life especially when that person is sitting in a Mosque in submission to Allah. It is only Allah S.W.T. who has the right to give and take life.
"I don't have a clue why educated Muslims like yourselve get off on the idea that Muslims themselves are responsible for their problems??"
My response:
Because educated people like us use our intellect to distinguish between right and wrong. I lived in Middle East long enough to know why even my neighbours could not take care of their simplest responsiblity as their household garbage. They always crept up in the middle of night and dumped their garbage at the corner of my house and blamed each other for doing that. This told me something about their nature. It told me that they like to "blame" others for their misgivings and they were lazy and lacked education to properly dispose of their garbage. Dumping their garbage at the corner of my house was easy, less laborious and did not require brains.
"Yes to a certain extent each one of us is responsible for our own problems, but I am sure that is not what you meant!! "
My response:
Sorry, but That is exactly what I meant.!!!
I read the sites you referred - Very interesting. As always they rely on Hadeeths that were produced long after the Prophet's death. Nothing is referred to the Koran for substanting the Hadeeths. What was interesting that Sunnis agree that Mahdi will come through Hazarat Fatima's progeny(which includes Ali, although they do not admit, and common sense dictates that Fatima and Ali were husband and wife and had Hassan and Hussein who in turn had children and so on and so on). In a nut shell, Imam will come as a descendant of Ali and Fatima. In other words, the progeny of Ali and Fatima has continued in the world and IS PRESENT but only one day reveal Himself, correct? Or will he just drop from the Sky? iN THAT CASE HOW DO WE KNOW IF HE IS THE ONE AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE? will Allah announce him and will we all hear Allah?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now if I were to say that Muslims are not responsible for 911, Americans themselves are, will you agree with me? "
My response:
No, because you have not given me a reason. The hijackers were Muslims who have always blamed Americans and Israelis for their problems. Also, do you say that the 3,000 innocent people
who died on 9/11 were responsible for Muslims problems?
"If I say that Muslims are not responsible for the chaos in Israel, Israelis themselves are, will you agree with me?"
My response:
No, because it takes two to Tango.
And when you are ignorant you are at a more disadvantage.
"If I say that when Sunnis kill Shias, the Shias themselves are responsible for it, will you agree with me?"
No, not unless you tell me why Shias are responsible for being killed by Sunnis and who gives them the right to kill. Why would any human being want to take another human being's life especially when that person is sitting in a Mosque in submission to Allah. It is only Allah S.W.T. who has the right to give and take life.
"I don't have a clue why educated Muslims like yourselve get off on the idea that Muslims themselves are responsible for their problems??"
My response:
Because educated people like us use our intellect to distinguish between right and wrong. I lived in Middle East long enough to know why even my neighbours could not take care of their simplest responsiblity as their household garbage. They always crept up in the middle of night and dumped their garbage at the corner of my house and blamed each other for doing that. This told me something about their nature. It told me that they like to "blame" others for their misgivings and they were lazy and lacked education to properly dispose of their garbage. Dumping their garbage at the corner of my house was easy, less laborious and did not require brains.
"Yes to a certain extent each one of us is responsible for our own problems, but I am sure that is not what you meant!! "
My response:
Sorry, but That is exactly what I meant.!!!
I read the sites you referred - Very interesting. As always they rely on Hadeeths that were produced long after the Prophet's death. Nothing is referred to the Koran for substanting the Hadeeths. What was interesting that Sunnis agree that Mahdi will come through Hazarat Fatima's progeny(which includes Ali, although they do not admit, and common sense dictates that Fatima and Ali were husband and wife and had Hassan and Hussein who in turn had children and so on and so on). In a nut shell, Imam will come as a descendant of Ali and Fatima. In other words, the progeny of Ali and Fatima has continued in the world and IS PRESENT but only one day reveal Himself, correct? Or will he just drop from the Sky? iN THAT CASE HOW DO WE KNOW IF HE IS THE ONE AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE? will Allah announce him and will we all hear Allah?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
Dear Serendepity,
You are truly an intelligent and a well read person and have grasped the concept of Immamah. It is a real pleasure to talk to someone like yu. I fully agree with you when you say: "As I have CONSISTENTLY tried to explain on this board, the benefits of the existence of the Imam are NOT arbitrarily limited to his "outward" guidance of people! The existence of a pure Imam certainly has OTHER benefits, which may not even be evident to the vast majority. In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE, even if we don't personally "see" him. So the right guidance of Islam AND the protection of the worthy IS undertaken by the Imam, even (and perhaps especially) during times of supposed occultation."
Allah S.W.T. says in Sura Nur, S. XXIV, 46,
"We have indeed sent down Signs that make things manifest; And God guides whom He will To a Way that is straight"
Remember that God has said in the Koran also, that Allah guides whom He pleases to his Light".
He also says in Sura 24:35..."Light Upon Light, God doth guide Whom He will to His Light"...
So it makes sense when you say, "In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE.....especially) during times of supposed occultation.
In conclusion, Allah's guidance is not time bound. He said that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. was Khatim-ul-Anmbiya and according to Shia belief, and the message of Gadir-E-Khum, Allah would continue His guidance through Imams from the Progeny of Rasul S.A.W. through Fatima and Ali till the day of Qiyamah. So it is not correct to assume that Mahdi will come at Qiyamah. It may be the Imam will reveal Himself at that time, but He is present now, was present yesterday and will be ever present BUT ONLY THOSE WHOM ALLAH WILLS, WILL BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE IMAM AT ALL TIMES AND BENEFIT FROM HIS GUIDANCE. In the meantime, we have to pray for Allah's Mercy to guide us to His Light in this world.
You are truly an intelligent and a well read person and have grasped the concept of Immamah. It is a real pleasure to talk to someone like yu. I fully agree with you when you say: "As I have CONSISTENTLY tried to explain on this board, the benefits of the existence of the Imam are NOT arbitrarily limited to his "outward" guidance of people! The existence of a pure Imam certainly has OTHER benefits, which may not even be evident to the vast majority. In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE, even if we don't personally "see" him. So the right guidance of Islam AND the protection of the worthy IS undertaken by the Imam, even (and perhaps especially) during times of supposed occultation."
Allah S.W.T. says in Sura Nur, S. XXIV, 46,
"We have indeed sent down Signs that make things manifest; And God guides whom He will To a Way that is straight"
Remember that God has said in the Koran also, that Allah guides whom He pleases to his Light".
He also says in Sura 24:35..."Light Upon Light, God doth guide Whom He will to His Light"...
So it makes sense when you say, "In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE.....especially) during times of supposed occultation.
In conclusion, Allah's guidance is not time bound. He said that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. was Khatim-ul-Anmbiya and according to Shia belief, and the message of Gadir-E-Khum, Allah would continue His guidance through Imams from the Progeny of Rasul S.A.W. through Fatima and Ali till the day of Qiyamah. So it is not correct to assume that Mahdi will come at Qiyamah. It may be the Imam will reveal Himself at that time, but He is present now, was present yesterday and will be ever present BUT ONLY THOSE WHOM ALLAH WILLS, WILL BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE IMAM AT ALL TIMES AND BENEFIT FROM HIS GUIDANCE. In the meantime, we have to pray for Allah's Mercy to guide us to His Light in this world.
-
Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
Dear Serendepity,
You are truly an intelligent and a well read person and have grasped the concept of Immamah. It is a real pleasure to talk to someone like yu. I fully agree with you when you say: "As I have CONSISTENTLY tried to explain on this board, the benefits of the existence of the Imam are NOT arbitrarily limited to his "outward" guidance of people! The existence of a pure Imam certainly has OTHER benefits, which may not even be evident to the vast majority. In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE, even if we don't personally "see" him. So the right guidance of Islam AND the protection of the worthy IS undertaken by the Imam, even (and perhaps especially) during times of supposed occultation."
Allah S.W.T. says in Sura Nur, S. XXIV, 46,
"We have indeed sent down Signs that make things manifest; And God guides whom He will To a Way that is straight"
Remember that God has said in the Koran also, that Allah guides whom He pleases to his Light".
He also says in Sura 24:35..."Light Upon Light, God doth guide Whom He will to His Light"...
So it makes sense when you say, "In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE.....especially) during times of supposed occultation.
In conclusion, Allah's guidance is not time bound. He said that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. was Khatim-ul-Anmbiya and according to Shia belief, and the message of Gadir-E-Khum, Allah would continue His guidance through Imams from the Progeny of Rasul S.A.W. through Fatima and Ali till the day of Qiyamah. So it is not correct to assume that Mahdi will come at Qiyamah. It may be the Imam will reveal Himself at that time, but He is present now, was present yesterday and will be ever present BUT ONLY THOSE WHOM ALLAH WILLS, WILL BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE IMAM AT ALL TIMES AND BENEFIT FROM HIS GUIDANCE. In the meantime, we have to pray for Allah's Mercy to guide us to His Light in this world.
You are truly an intelligent and a well read person and have grasped the concept of Immamah. It is a real pleasure to talk to someone like yu. I fully agree with you when you say: "As I have CONSISTENTLY tried to explain on this board, the benefits of the existence of the Imam are NOT arbitrarily limited to his "outward" guidance of people! The existence of a pure Imam certainly has OTHER benefits, which may not even be evident to the vast majority. In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE, even if we don't personally "see" him. So the right guidance of Islam AND the protection of the worthy IS undertaken by the Imam, even (and perhaps especially) during times of supposed occultation."
Allah S.W.T. says in Sura Nur, S. XXIV, 46,
"We have indeed sent down Signs that make things manifest; And God guides whom He will To a Way that is straight"
Remember that God has said in the Koran also, that Allah guides whom He pleases to his Light".
He also says in Sura 24:35..."Light Upon Light, God doth guide Whom He will to His Light"...
So it makes sense when you say, "In other words, the SPIRITUAL guidance of the Imam towards worthy individuals will ALWAYS BE THERE.....especially) during times of supposed occultation.
In conclusion, Allah's guidance is not time bound. He said that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. was Khatim-ul-Anmbiya and according to Shia belief, and the message of Gadir-E-Khum, Allah would continue His guidance through Imams from the Progeny of Rasul S.A.W. through Fatima and Ali till the day of Qiyamah. So it is not correct to assume that Mahdi will come at Qiyamah. It may be the Imam will reveal Himself at that time, but He is present now, was present yesterday and will be ever present BUT ONLY THOSE WHOM ALLAH WILLS, WILL BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE IMAM AT ALL TIMES AND BENEFIT FROM HIS GUIDANCE. In the meantime, we have to pray for Allah's Mercy to guide us to His Light in this world.
Re: IMAM
Africawala
I am sure your time in the middle east was very well spent figuring out who was dumping whose garbage where.My response:
Because educated people like us use our intellect to distinguish between right and wrong. I lived in Middle East long enough to know why even my neighbours could not take care of their simplest responsiblity as their household garbage. They always crept up in the middle of night and dumped their garbage at the corner of my house and blamed each other for doing that. This told me something about their nature. It told me that they like to "blame" others for their misgivings and they were lazy and lacked education to properly dispose of their garbage. Dumping their garbage at the corner of my house was easy, less laborious and did not require brains.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
Br.Anajmi
Br. Africawal responded to points you resed bu addressed to me. So here are his response;
Br. Africawal responded to points you resed bu addressed to me. So here are his response;
"Now if I were to say that Muslims are not responsible for 911, Americans themselves are, will you agree with me? "
My response:
No, because you have not given me a reason. The hijackers were Muslims who have always blamed Americans and Israelis for their problems. Also, do you say that the 3,000 innocent people
who died on 9/11 were responsible for Muslims problems?
"If I say that Muslims are not responsible for the chaos in Israel, Israelis themselves are, will you agree with me?"
My response:
No, because it takes two to Tango.
And when you are ignorant you are at a more disadvantage.
"If I say that when Sunnis kill Shias, the Shias themselves are responsible for it, will you agree with me?"
No, not unless you tell me why Shias are responsible for being killed by Sunnis and who gives them the right to kill. Why would any human being want to take another human being's life especially when that person is sitting in a Mosque in submission to Allah. It is only Allah S.W.T. who has the right to give and take life.
"I don't have a clue why educated Muslims like yourselve get off on the idea that Muslims themselves are responsible for their problems??"
My response:
Because educated people like us use our intellect to distinguish between right and wrong. I lived in Middle East long enough to know why even my neighbours could not take care of their simplest responsiblity as their household garbage. They always crept up in the middle of night and dumped their garbage at the corner of my house and blamed each other for doing that. This told me something about their nature. It told me that they like to "blame" others for their misgivings and they were lazy and lacked education to properly dispose of their garbage. Dumping their garbage at the corner of my house was easy, less laborious and did not require brains.
"Yes to a certain extent each one of us is responsible for our own problems, but I am sure that is not what you meant!! "
My response:
Sorry, but That is exactly what I meant.!!!
-
serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
anajmi asked me:
--------------------------------------------------So how do we know that it is the Imam that is doing whatever it is that he is doing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The WE in this context is "rhetorical", referring to the majority of so-called believers who for a great variety of reasons perceive very LITTLE. The Imam's identity is CLEARLY discernible to those who are so graced by Allah S.W.T. (I would add in this respect, it is the doctrine of OCCULTATION that is perhaps distorted, because there is never a complete "veiling or concealing" of his presence. It would be more ACCURATE to say the people thus graced by ALLAH are kept from the eye of the "world" because of their genuine humility.)
--------------------------------------------------So how do we know that it is the Imam that is doing whatever it is that he is doing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The WE in this context is "rhetorical", referring to the majority of so-called believers who for a great variety of reasons perceive very LITTLE. The Imam's identity is CLEARLY discernible to those who are so graced by Allah S.W.T. (I would add in this respect, it is the doctrine of OCCULTATION that is perhaps distorted, because there is never a complete "veiling or concealing" of his presence. It would be more ACCURATE to say the people thus graced by ALLAH are kept from the eye of the "world" because of their genuine humility.)
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: IMAM
My sincere apologies to Muslim First. You are right my response was directed to anajmi.
Dear brother anajmi,
You say: "I am sure your time in the middle east was very well spent figuring out who was dumping whose garbage where."
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You assume too much. My time was well spent taking care of less fortunate people. I was there on a humanitarian mission. I did not spend my time "figuring out who was dumping whose garbage where". But when somebody's garbage started affecting my life and my family "was attacked by monstrous mosquitoes", that's when I decided to do something and stayed up one night to see who was doing this. You see, people do not realise that their actions affect other peoples' lives. Our Muslims brothers who go about justifying killing and maiming other human beings, affects lives of other peace loving Muslims. It also brings shame to Islam and our Beloved Prophet S.A.W. In retrospect, I could have dumped my garbage at these peoples' homes but I am not vicious and neither am I stupid or lazy. Salaams.
Dear brother anajmi,
You say: "I am sure your time in the middle east was very well spent figuring out who was dumping whose garbage where."
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You assume too much. My time was well spent taking care of less fortunate people. I was there on a humanitarian mission. I did not spend my time "figuring out who was dumping whose garbage where". But when somebody's garbage started affecting my life and my family "was attacked by monstrous mosquitoes", that's when I decided to do something and stayed up one night to see who was doing this. You see, people do not realise that their actions affect other peoples' lives. Our Muslims brothers who go about justifying killing and maiming other human beings, affects lives of other peace loving Muslims. It also brings shame to Islam and our Beloved Prophet S.A.W. In retrospect, I could have dumped my garbage at these peoples' homes but I am not vicious and neither am I stupid or lazy. Salaams.
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Muslim First
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Re: IMAM
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Br.Africawala
Dumping garbage at other peoples property is not exclusive Muslim sport but it happens everywhere. Town which have free garbage pickup get load from other places where people have to cart theirs to dump yards. That is not worst short comings of Muslims you want to base your argument on.
Also you said:
Prophet SAW said about his progeny. He also wanted to emphasize that it was from his daughter Fatima RA. Of course it means it was also Ali RA’s progeny and one should not be too sensitive to it.
“HOW DO WE KNOW IF HE IS THE ONE AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE?”
Your guess is as good as mine. Only Allah SWT knows.
Wasalaam
Br.Africawala
Dumping garbage at other peoples property is not exclusive Muslim sport but it happens everywhere. Town which have free garbage pickup get load from other places where people have to cart theirs to dump yards. That is not worst short comings of Muslims you want to base your argument on.
Also you said:
Majority of Hadeeth (Hadeeth is plural and Ahadeeth is singular) were recorded after passing of Prophet SAW. So it’s up to you to use or discount any one of them. Generally one selects one which suits our argument.As always they rely on Hadeeths that were produced long after the Prophet's death. Nothing is referred to the Koran for substanting the Hadeeths. What was interesting that Sunnis agree that Mahdi will come through Hazarat Fatima's progeny(which includes Ali, although they do not admit, and common sense dictates that Fatima and Ali were husband and wife and had Hassan and Hussein who in turn had children and so on and so on). In a nut shell, Imam will come as a descendant of Ali and Fatima. In other words, the progeny of Ali and Fatima has continued in the world and IS PRESENT but only one day reveal Himself, correct? Or will he just drop from the Sky? iN THAT CASE HOW DO WE KNOW IF HE IS THE ONE AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE? will Allah announce him and will we all hear Allah?
Prophet SAW said about his progeny. He also wanted to emphasize that it was from his daughter Fatima RA. Of course it means it was also Ali RA’s progeny and one should not be too sensitive to it.
“HOW DO WE KNOW IF HE IS THE ONE AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE?”
Your guess is as good as mine. Only Allah SWT knows.
Wasalaam
Re: IMAM
serendipity
Is the Imam's identity discernible to you? It is not to me and I consider myself still to have been graced by Allah S.W.T. I guess "we" need to now quantify his grace to figure out if "we" actually have been graced by him.The WE in this context is "rhetorical", referring to the majority of so-called believers who for a great variety of reasons perceive very LITTLE. The Imam's identity is CLEARLY discernible to those who are so graced by Allah S.W.T.
Re: IMAM
serendipity
Exactly...... that is just about how much sense this "veiling and concealing", complete or not, makes.
If these guys are kept from the eyes of world how do "we" even know they exist? Do you know if they exist? If you know they exist, is it because you are genuinely humble? If so then you should be invisible too! And if you are not then you probably do not know if they exist and if you do not know if they exist, then how do you know that they exist. And if you are genuinely humble and I know you then does that mean that I am invisible too?(I would add in this respect, it is the doctrine of OCCULTATION that is perhaps distorted, because there is never a complete "veiling or concealing" of his presence. It would be more ACCURATE to say the people thus graced by ALLAH are kept from the eye of the "world" because of their genuine humility.)
Exactly...... that is just about how much sense this "veiling and concealing", complete or not, makes.
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serendipity
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Re: IMAM
Re: anajmi's remark, I guess "we" need to now quantify his grace to figure out if "we" actually have been graced by him.
No, but "we" should be modest enough to allow for different degrees of seeing and understanding than our's, according to a person's spiritual maturity....as well as different levels of comprehending Holy Qur'an (unless you want to FORCE everyone to remain at your level).
Re: anajmi's remark, If these guys are kept from the eyes of the world how do "we" even know they exist?....that is just about how much sense this "veiling and concealing", complete or not, makes.
Regarding the "existence" of witnesses, Br. Africawala has already kindly directed us to Sura Nur, S. XXIV, 46: "We have indeed sent down Signs that make things manifest; And God guides whom He will To a Way that is straight." Remember that God has said in the Koran also, that "Allah guides whom He pleases to his Light".
He also says in Sura 24:35..."Light Upon Light, God doth guide Whom He will to His Light".
On the other hand, there may be an admonishment for ALL of us in Sura 36:7 and 36:8, regarding the majority of so-called believers who perceive very LITTLE. "The Word is proved true against the greater part of them; for they do not believe. We have put yokes around their necks right up to their chins so that their heads are forced up and they cannot see."
"The same is it to them whether thou admonish them or thou do not admonish them: they will not believe." (Sura 36:10)
'NUF SAID.
No, but "we" should be modest enough to allow for different degrees of seeing and understanding than our's, according to a person's spiritual maturity....as well as different levels of comprehending Holy Qur'an (unless you want to FORCE everyone to remain at your level).
Re: anajmi's remark, If these guys are kept from the eyes of the world how do "we" even know they exist?....that is just about how much sense this "veiling and concealing", complete or not, makes.
Regarding the "existence" of witnesses, Br. Africawala has already kindly directed us to Sura Nur, S. XXIV, 46: "We have indeed sent down Signs that make things manifest; And God guides whom He will To a Way that is straight." Remember that God has said in the Koran also, that "Allah guides whom He pleases to his Light".
He also says in Sura 24:35..."Light Upon Light, God doth guide Whom He will to His Light".
On the other hand, there may be an admonishment for ALL of us in Sura 36:7 and 36:8, regarding the majority of so-called believers who perceive very LITTLE. "The Word is proved true against the greater part of them; for they do not believe. We have put yokes around their necks right up to their chins so that their heads are forced up and they cannot see."
"The same is it to them whether thou admonish them or thou do not admonish them: they will not believe." (Sura 36:10)
'NUF SAID.
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Muslim First
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Re: IMAM
Br. Serendipity
There is straight forward and logical explanation and Ayas of Qur’an and there is esoteric interpretation in which you may just do whatever your heart desires. I would take it logical explanation of Muslim Scholars say like Ibn Kathir.
Let us see;
Q 24:46
[From Tafsir Ibn Kathir http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=36190 ]
24:46. We have indeed sent down manifest Ayat. And Allah guides whom He wills to the straight path.
Allah states that in this Qur'an He has revealed many clear and unambiguous rulings, words of wisdom and parables, and that He guides people of understanding, insight and intellect to ponder and understand them. He says:
And Allah guides whom He wills to the Straight Path.
My comment: :Here it is more logical that this Aya points to Ayat of Qur’an then some Hidden Imaam.
Let us go to 34:35
[Tafsir Ibn Kathir http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35990 ]
Light upon Light!
Al-`Awfi narrated from Ibn `Abbas that this meant the faith and deeds of a person. As-Suddi said:
Light upon Light!
"Light of the fire and the light of the oil: when they are combined they give light, and neither of them can give light without the other. Similarly the light of the Qur'an and the light of faith give light when they are combined, and neither can do so without the other.''
Allah guides to His Light whom He wills.
Means, Allah shows the way to the ones whom He chooses, as it says in the Hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad from `Abdullah bin `Amr, who said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah say:
(Allah created His creation in darkness, then on the same day He sent His Light upon them. Whoever was touched by His Light on that day will be guided and whoever was missed will be led astray. Hence I say: the pens have dried in accordance with the knowledge of Allah, may He be glorified.)''
Meaning, He knows best who deserves to be guided and who deserves to be led astray. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "The Messenger of Allah said:
(Hearts are of four kinds:
the heart that is clear like a shining lamp;
the heart that is covered and tied up;
the heart that is upside-down; and
the heart that is clad in armor.
As for the clear heart,
it is the heart of the believer in which is a lamp filled with light;
as for the covered heart,
this is the heart of the disbeliever;
as for the upside-down heart,
this is the heart of the hypocrite, who recognizes then denies;
as for the armor-clad heart,
this is the heart in which there is both faith and hypocrisy.
The parable of the faith in it is that of legume, a sprout that is irrigated with good water, and the likeness of the hypocrisy in it is that of sores that are fed by blood and pus. Whichever of the two prevails is the characteristic that will dominate.)
Its chain of narrators is good (Jayyid) although they (Al-Bukhari and Muslim) did not record it.
I will get to 36:7 and 36:8 little bit later
Wasalaam
There is straight forward and logical explanation and Ayas of Qur’an and there is esoteric interpretation in which you may just do whatever your heart desires. I would take it logical explanation of Muslim Scholars say like Ibn Kathir.
Let us see;
Q 24:46
[From Tafsir Ibn Kathir http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=36190 ]
24:46. We have indeed sent down manifest Ayat. And Allah guides whom He wills to the straight path.
Allah states that in this Qur'an He has revealed many clear and unambiguous rulings, words of wisdom and parables, and that He guides people of understanding, insight and intellect to ponder and understand them. He says:
And Allah guides whom He wills to the Straight Path.
My comment: :Here it is more logical that this Aya points to Ayat of Qur’an then some Hidden Imaam.
Let us go to 34:35
[Tafsir Ibn Kathir http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35990 ]
Light upon Light!
Al-`Awfi narrated from Ibn `Abbas that this meant the faith and deeds of a person. As-Suddi said:
Light upon Light!
"Light of the fire and the light of the oil: when they are combined they give light, and neither of them can give light without the other. Similarly the light of the Qur'an and the light of faith give light when they are combined, and neither can do so without the other.''
Allah guides to His Light whom He wills.
Means, Allah shows the way to the ones whom He chooses, as it says in the Hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad from `Abdullah bin `Amr, who said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah say:
(Allah created His creation in darkness, then on the same day He sent His Light upon them. Whoever was touched by His Light on that day will be guided and whoever was missed will be led astray. Hence I say: the pens have dried in accordance with the knowledge of Allah, may He be glorified.)''
Meaning, He knows best who deserves to be guided and who deserves to be led astray. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "The Messenger of Allah said:
(Hearts are of four kinds:
the heart that is clear like a shining lamp;
the heart that is covered and tied up;
the heart that is upside-down; and
the heart that is clad in armor.
As for the clear heart,
it is the heart of the believer in which is a lamp filled with light;
as for the covered heart,
this is the heart of the disbeliever;
as for the upside-down heart,
this is the heart of the hypocrite, who recognizes then denies;
as for the armor-clad heart,
this is the heart in which there is both faith and hypocrisy.
The parable of the faith in it is that of legume, a sprout that is irrigated with good water, and the likeness of the hypocrisy in it is that of sores that are fed by blood and pus. Whichever of the two prevails is the characteristic that will dominate.)
Its chain of narrators is good (Jayyid) although they (Al-Bukhari and Muslim) did not record it.
I will get to 36:7 and 36:8 little bit later
Wasalaam
Re: IMAM
Well, one more thing actually...
Consider the "Light upon Light" ayah. Somehow it is connected to the Imam. What is the point in having light upon light if nobody can see it?
The prophet (saw) was definitely a better light and he was there for all to see and hear and believe, however
Now take a look at the hidden Imam, only those who have been blessed can discern him and in order to discern him, you have to be blessed by him however to be blessed by him, you have to discern him and how am I supposed to do that if I cannot discern him??
Consider the "Light upon Light" ayah. Somehow it is connected to the Imam. What is the point in having light upon light if nobody can see it?
The prophet (saw) was definitely a better light and he was there for all to see and hear and believe, however
The point of emphasis over here is that he was there for all of us to take advantage of. Same can be said about the quran, it is there for all to see and believe but only the chosen ones will understand and live by it. So the quran satisifes all the criteria."The Word is proved true against the greater part of them; for they do not believe. We have put yokes around their necks right up to their chins so that their heads are forced up and they cannot see."
"The same is it to them whether thou admonish them or thou do not admonish them: they will not believe." (Sura 36:10)
Now take a look at the hidden Imam, only those who have been blessed can discern him and in order to discern him, you have to be blessed by him however to be blessed by him, you have to discern him and how am I supposed to do that if I cannot discern him??
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serendipity
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Re: IMAM
Re: anajmi saying, Now take a look at the hidden Imam, only those who have been blessed can discern him and in order to discern him, you have to be blessed by him however to be blessed by him, you have to discern him and how am I supposed to do that if I cannot discern him?
You only need to be blessed "by Him", Allah SWT (not Imam). But this is true of EVERY blessing, both general AND particular. Why SOME are graced in this particular way is HIS prerogative, not mine. I won't deny it just because the thought of "another person" receiving it may happen to irritate someone. There are MANY unique ways for His servants (INCLUDING Imam) to serve Him, far beyond my capacity to describe! Rather than the "us" versus "you" (directed at "me") that you postulated, I WISH this blessing upon you, if that is your desire. Wasalaam
You only need to be blessed "by Him", Allah SWT (not Imam). But this is true of EVERY blessing, both general AND particular. Why SOME are graced in this particular way is HIS prerogative, not mine. I won't deny it just because the thought of "another person" receiving it may happen to irritate someone. There are MANY unique ways for His servants (INCLUDING Imam) to serve Him, far beyond my capacity to describe! Rather than the "us" versus "you" (directed at "me") that you postulated, I WISH this blessing upon you, if that is your desire. Wasalaam
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Muslim First
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Re: IMAM
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Brothers in Islam
Yes Islam is made very easy for us. Here is a Hadith from our Prophet SAW.
Abu Sufyan said that a foreign ruler once asked him: "What does [the Prophet Muhammad] order you to do?" Abu Sufyan replied:
" He orders us to offer prayers, to give charity, to be chaste,and to keep good relations with our relatives."
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume, 8, Hadith 10
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See how simple Islam is according to our Prophet.
Did he tell them to Kiss his feet or bow to him?
Did he tell them to beat Their chest?
Did he tell them to attend Daris and Jamans?
Did he tell them to visit graves?
Did he tell them to celebrate Milads and Uras?
Did he tell them to spend hours and hours looking for Siffa?
Please add to list if you want.
Wasalaam
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Brothers in Islam
Yes Islam is made very easy for us. Here is a Hadith from our Prophet SAW.
Abu Sufyan said that a foreign ruler once asked him: "What does [the Prophet Muhammad] order you to do?" Abu Sufyan replied:
" He orders us to offer prayers, to give charity, to be chaste,and to keep good relations with our relatives."
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume, 8, Hadith 10
--------------
See how simple Islam is according to our Prophet.
Did he tell them to Kiss his feet or bow to him?
Did he tell them to beat Their chest?
Did he tell them to attend Daris and Jamans?
Did he tell them to visit graves?
Did he tell them to celebrate Milads and Uras?
Did he tell them to spend hours and hours looking for Siffa?
Please add to list if you want.
Wasalaam
.
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Average Bohra
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Re: IMAM
I see a glaring contradiction here:
Anajmi
Anajmi
How are the Imams different than Hadith writers ?
Anajmi
Muslim First Here is a Hadith from our Prophet SAW.I think I would go with Muslim First's explanation in this case
Anajmi
Which one is it ? If you trust the Quran, then Wahabis and Sunnis wouldn't need Hadiths to prove anything.It's a good thing most muslims trust the quran more than anything else
How are the Imams different than Hadith writers ?
Re: IMAM
I am a new member so if I offend anyone, I apologize.Here is my 2 cents.
I think we really need " IMAN " instead of " IMAM ".
LA ILLAHA ILLUL LAH kind of Iman, not only spoken one, but the one that is practiced everyday in "ALL" affairs of our life....
I think we really need " IMAN " instead of " IMAM ".
LA ILLAHA ILLUL LAH kind of Iman, not only spoken one, but the one that is practiced everyday in "ALL" affairs of our life....
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Average Bohra
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Re: IMAM
Very idealistic...keep on dreamin' myman....I mean I-man....kind of Iman, not only spoken one, but the one that is practiced everyday in "ALL" affairs of our life....
Such a "thing" does not exist in organised religions...the only consistency is hyprocrisy.
Re: IMAM
Do we really need IMAM...??!!!!
If we need Imam, why God stopped sending prophets? He send 124,000, why not few hundred more ....!!!!???? Why He said - Today religion is complete and I like Islam for you. Why prohethood was ended?
What is the big reason for and of Imamet..??? And why not for Mohammad's son ...??!! why not direct descendants of Mohammad, why it had to be Ali and Fatema ...??!!! why God made it complicated... he says - Islam is easy and made simple for human beings....
If we need Imam, why God stopped sending prophets? He send 124,000, why not few hundred more ....!!!!???? Why He said - Today religion is complete and I like Islam for you. Why prohethood was ended?
What is the big reason for and of Imamet..??? And why not for Mohammad's son ...??!! why not direct descendants of Mohammad, why it had to be Ali and Fatema ...??!!! why God made it complicated... he says - Islam is easy and made simple for human beings....
Re: IMAM
Islam is simple to understand but not easy to practise. But being easy refers to Quran by reference to Ayat 54:17, which states:Originally posted by Mal:
Islam is easy and made simple for human beings....
"Wa laqad yassar-na al-qur'an li-dhikri, fa hal min muddakir"
This is wrongly translated to read "We have made Quran easy to understand; then where is the one who understands?"
The correct translation is:
"We have made Quran easy to remember; then where is the one who remembers?"
Since we all know that absolutely no one but the Dai- forget the Imam, he is a myth - understands the Quran, the ayat refers to rememberance, meaning memorization. It does not refer to understanding. People all over the world can evidently learn to memorize the Quran, but where is the one who understands? The answer is your favorite fuherer. For Bohras, it is the Dai.