Imam Hussain and Ashura of moharram

[Al-Noor]

Only for Muslims - For believers who believe in Quran without any doubts, hypocrites munafiqun can do what ever they want this message is not applied on them


Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

81. ‘Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins).’

82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: ‘Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!’

83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment).

84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and sinners)”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-84]

“Verily, by your life (O Muhammad), in their wild intoxication, they were wandering blindly.

73. So As‑Saihah (torment — awful cry) overtook them at the time of sunrise.

74. And We turned (the towns of Sodom in Palestine) upside down and rained down on them stones of baked clay.

75. Surely, in this are signs for those who see (or understand or learn the lessons from the Signs of Allaah).

76. And verily, they (the cities) were right on the highroad (from Makkah to Syria, i.e. the place where the Dead Sea is now)”

[al-Hijr 15:72-76]


al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

[Al-Noor]

Alhumdolillah, Shamsheer jab Ali ki chali, kuch idhar bhage kuch udhar....

[JC]

Thank you for your support and understanding Bros Anajmi and SBM! When people like you are here who cares if there is Noor or UnNoor .....

And people who think 'Religion' and 'Islam' is their baap dada kee jageer .......... pls wake up, days of accountability and transparency have arrived.

[Biradar]

I fully agree with Nastik, SBM and Ghulam Mohammad.

If Mohammad and Hussain did what Allah wanted, as per Kothari interpretations, why do matam, cry, shout?? By doing all these are you all not defying God??

Gabriel use to come to Prophets only?? How come he 'visited' Hussain?? WHO 'listened' to what he said to Hussain? 'After' his so-called discussion with Gabriel, Hussain never went back so chances of him narrating all these to Zainab does not arise. So much so that it is claimed that 'Jeebrael Na ankhono ma anju awe gaya' ........... who SAW the tears???? Who 'counted' 12 ragras?? How could have Zainab heard what Hussain and Shimr discussed before Hussain was beheaded??

The matter of the fact is that Hussain went to Kufa on the invitations of Kufans who were willing to accept him as their leader, they betrayed him and Hussain and his family was massacred in Karbala. The 'details' are just fabrication; matam is guilt of Kufans and what followed is history ..............

All this 'Imamat' and so many Dais floating here and there are for money and power. Religion was never, it is not now and it will never be.

You ignorant fool. Can you please point out where it says that Gibraeel can only visit the prophet? Also, was any one around to have heard what Gibraeel told the prophet? Do you still believe him or not? Yes or no will suffice.

My friend, the rank of the panjaatan is exalted beyond your imagination. These personalities were manifestations of divine reality which existed far before their physical presence on Earth. The time of Mohammad was unique that all five of these personalities were revealed at the same time. See Q 33:33. Incidentally, there is a direction connection between Q 33:33 and Q 56:79.

At Karbala, Zainab was present, so was Imam Ali Zain al-Abeeden. There were a large number of people on either side who witnessed the events. The essential story is true, and can not be doubted. Yes, there may be some embellishments over a period of time, but the story in its essence is true. I should also say that the maaktal of Hussain is well described in general Shia literature, not just among the Bohras.

Now, imagine you are in a situation in which you have no escape, and you know your outcome. Does that diminish the sacrifice? Does that mean we should not mourn the sacrifice? Yes, Hussain knew the moment Muawiah died and Yazid usurped the zaahiri khilaafat, what the outcome would be. His grandfather (i.e. the prophet) had told him about this too. Do you doubt that Allah could have revealed this to the prophet? In fact, it is likely that Q 2:266 is an allusion to the events of Karbala, and the allusion at the time of its revelation was only understood by the prophet and those he choose to reveal it to.

The people of Kufa betrayed Hussain. However, the outcome (i.e. or Hussain's martyrdom) was predetermined the moment Muawiah died. There was no way that Yazid would let Hussain get away without giving him allegiance.

After the events of Karbala, the family of Hussain dispersed and the story of what happened spread far and wide. Mukhtar led a revolution to take revenge on the killers. At first, he tried to get support of Imam Ali Zain al-abeedeen, who refused and was indifferent. At that point, Mukhtar thought he got permission from Mohamaad bin-Hanafia. All of these events are well documented and show that the events of Karbala were well known.

Those who question them are influenced by Yazid and are fanning the fires of hell for themselves.

[SBM]

Those who question them are influenced by Yazid and are fanning the fires of hell for themselves.

Calm Down Biradar
No where in this thread any one has questioned the incidents in Karbala, The question was asked "if Imam Hussain gave his life for the Khushi and Raza of Allaha as described by Kothari Waiz then why this Maatam?" According to Waiz I heard from Kothari Goons that Gibril came to Imam Hussain and gave him the Basharat of Jannat upon his Shahadat and that is supposed to be good news of guaranteed Jannat then why we are doing 24/7 Maatam. Should not one be happy that Imam Hussain and his family are residents of Jannat and hopefully one day we can our place with him.
Yes we can mourn for the loss of lives of Imam Hussain and his family but as Abde53 asked whether this Maatam Majlis for 10 days is necessary did Imam Hussain and his family would approve of we doing 24/7 Maatam when he sacrificed his and his family's lives for the pleasure of Allaha. That is the question of this thread and NOT THE AUTHENTICITY OF KARBALA.
By doing Maatam are we not going against what Allaha wanted of Imam Hussain and his family.

[Biradar]

Those who question them are influenced by Yazid and are fanning the fires of hell for themselves.

Calm Down Biradar
No where in this thread any one has questioned the incidents in Karbala, The question was asked "if Imam Hussain gave his life for the Khushi and Raza of Allaha as described by Kothari Waiz then why this Maatam?" According to Waiz I heard from Kothari Goons that Gibril came to Imam Hussain and gave him the Basharat of Jannat upon his Shahadat and that is supposed to be good news of guaranteed Jannat then why we are doing 24/7 Maatam. Should not one be happy that Imam Hussain and his family are residents of Jannat and hopefully one day we can our place with him.
Yes we can mourn for the loss of lives of Imam Hussain and his family but as Abde53 asked whether this Maatam Majlis for 10 days is necessary did Imam Hussain and his family would approve of we doing 24/7 Maatam when he sacrificed his and his family's lives for the pleasure of Allaha. That is the question of this thread and NOT THE AUTHENTICITY OF KARBALA.
By doing Maatam are we not going against what Allaha wanted of Imam Hussain and his family.

I was not responding to you, but to JC. He seems to be a know-nothing fool.

Coming to your question. Even if the "basahrat of janaat" was given to Hussain, it does not diminish his sacrifice.

Incidentally, do you doubt that Hussain could have gone anywhere but janaat? After the prophet had explicitly said that Hassan and Hussain and the leaders of the youth of janaat, and the Quran itself indicates that he is one of the panjaatan? Hence, even if the statement about Gibraeel was not made, it is clear that Hussain will go to janaat. So should be not mourn his sacrifice? Or, to put it another way, should we reward Yazid that he killed him so he could go to janaat? I mean, our resident blind goat has said so on occasions. Do you agree with him?

The question about the 9 days of waaz. I have made this clear on many occasions. These waaz were meant as an opportunity to gather the community and impart knowledge. Originally, even during the time of STS they were not for all 9 days. Slowly, they were made of the 9 days, with two waaz on the day of Aashura, making up 10 waaz.

I already said yesterday that DMMS is a tyrant, and his measures are nothing but coercion. I also said one can listen to the waaz online or in person elsewhere. No need to elaborate further repeatedly.

[SBM]

Biradar
I did not have any doubt but how about thousands of Abdes who listened to this misgiving during the Moharrum and many abdes (of lower IQ) will tell you that doing Maatam 24/7 is the guarantee to Jannat and they have no idea what are they Maataming (sic) for,
If Maatam is to express our sorrow of some one's death(in this case sacrifice) then how does Maatam will extend one's life like they do it for Tulul Umer Sharif of SMB and SMS. Why did not SMB stopped this practice of 24/7 Maatam at Nikkah and Birthdays and all the happy occasion too..including for his ill health and for his long life.. Please do not give a pass to SMB by saying that he was under the control of other people.

[anajmi]

How does one identify an idol worshipper? When someone casts doubt on the creator, he agreea with him. But you cast a doubt on the creation and he is up in arms. That is a sign of an idil worshipper. Biradar and porus before him with all their "colorful knowledge" of taawil are nothing more than idol worshippers. Allah says in the quran that their houses are like those of a spiders web. Flimsy and weak. The quranic ayahs that biradar quotes can only build a spider's web. A strong gust of wind and it can be blown away. 33:33 is the backbone of their idol worship and it is weak like the spider's web. And by the way, there is no reference from the qiran and the sunnah about karbala. There is no authentic narration about the prophet talking about karbala. It is simply folklore developed over years of idol worship that happens during moharram.

Someone can claim that 2:256 refers to the victory of the avengers over ultron and he wouldn't be anymore wrong than biradar and his clan of idol worshippers.

[Biradar]

The blind goat strikes again. The real idol worshipper here is the one who loves Yazid and hates the Ahle-bait. He can not stand the possibility that the Quran talks about them, and that there may be colors in this world which he can not see due to his blindness, and fruits which he can not taste due to his insistence on chewing on the skin. No amount of help will cure these blind goat Yazidi idol worshippers.

However, those with discernment will realize the truth. The truth is there for everyone to see. Even the most obstinate takfiri Salafi/Wahabbi, the most staunchest enemies of Maulana Ali, can not deny that Q 33:33 is about Muhammad, Ali, Fatema, Hassan and Hussain. Their jealousy that the wicked three usurpers, and their murderous descendants, were not included has not abated for 1400 years. They are unable to accept that these people of the family of the prophet are the ones authorized to decode the mysteries of the Quran, and are the truly pure ones, as indicated by Q 56:79. What more can one say? They can not accept that Allah had given the message to the prophet of the fate of his dearest purified ones in many places, including Q 2:266.

As Ali says in Sermon 2 of Nahaj ul-Balagha about the family of the prophet:

They are the trustees of His secrets, shelter for His affairs, source of knowledge about Him, centre of His wisdom, valleys for His books and mountains of His religion. With them Allah straightened the bend of religion’s back and removed the trembling of its limbs.

He further states about the first usurper in Sermon 3:

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Just as now we have sheep and goats, on the death of the third usurper, Ali says:

At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like a herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:

That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth, nor (to make) mischief (therein); and the end is (best) for the pious ones. (Qur’an, 28:83)

Ali says about those who opposed him before and during his zaahiri khilaafat:

They have made Satan the master of their affairs, and he has taken them as partners. He has laid eggs and hatched them in their bosoms. He creeps and crawls in their laps. He sees through their eyes, and speaks with their tongues. In this way he has led them to sinfulness and adorned for them foul things like the action of one whom Satan has made partner in his domain and speaks untruth through his tongue.

As one can see, 1400 years later these Satanic people have not stopped their enmity and jealousy.

Well, it is pointless to go on. Those who are the Shia of Ali know what I mean, and those who are the lovers of Yazid will never know what I mean. They will talk about "ultron" and make fun of the Quran and be unable to understand its depths. They think that Quran 31:27 was revealed as a joke, and even though Allah himself states there that "Though all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea-seven seas after it to replenish it, yet would the Words of God not be spent. God is All-mighty, All-wise.", they understand everything.

Coming to the question of Imam Hussain's martyrdom and the joke and drama the Kotharis have made of it. Yes, I agree that it is despicable show and that this non-stop mataam is not a good thing. It is one thing to mourn and quite another to make a show and drama of it. I think that SMB felt that perhaps the common man, who could not understand the subtleties of religion, could at least earn himself sawaab by mourning and doing some maatam. However, we see what that has translated into. Maatam turned into a dance form, and a joke. Obviously, I oppose this and do not think it is correct. It is best to spend time reflecting on the life of Hussain. A good starting point is to listen and understand the du'a for the day of Arafah as prescribed by Hussain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBm4dcIyvk

This will teach one the depth of the love which Imam Hussain had for Allah and the position in which he saw himself. I have nothing further to say to the blind goat, at least for now.

[Al-Noor]

Birader I think you should not waste time on these idiots, you can clearly see they dont even respect what Quran and hadith says, so there is slim chance they will care what you have to say, internet is full of information for those who sincerely want to research and find truth, but I am sure you are already aware these serpents are not here to find truth but to create confusion in momeenin mind, please leave them alone, Allah will take care of their mischiefs.

[anajmi]

Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 32:
يَا نِسَاءَ النَّبِيِّ لَسْتُنَّ كَأَحَدٍ مِّنَ النِّسَاءِ إِنِ اتَّقَيْتُنَّ فَلَا تَخْضَعْنَ بِالْقَوْلِ فَيَطْمَعَ الَّذِي فِي قَلْبِهِ مَرَضٌ وَقُلْنَ قَوْلًا مَّعْرُوفًا

O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the [other] women, provided that you remain [truly] conscious of God. Hence, be not over-soft in your speech, lest any whose heart is diseased should be moved to desire [you]: but, withal, speak in a kindly way.
(English - Mohd Asad)
Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 33:
وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

And abide quietly in your homes, and do not flaunt your charms as they used to flaunt them in the old days of pagan ignorance; and be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and pay heed unto God and His Apostle: for God only wants to remove from you all that might be loathsome, O you members of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you to utmost purity.
(English - Mohd Asad)

As can be seen from the above two ayahs, 33:33 reders to the wives of the prophet. There is no mention of anyone else. Plain and simple. This talk about hating the ahle bait is nothing more than bull crap. No one hates anything other than colorful bullshit sold by these idol worshippers. Infact, the entire faith of these idol worshippers is actually based upon hate. They hate the companions of the prophet and they hate the wives of the prophet (saw).

Infact if you look at the sermons from nahjul balagha, Ali seems to be full of hatred too. And for what? For a throne? These idol worshippers have reduced a great personality to one who covets the throne of duniya. What a pity!

The bottom line is that their idol worship is not supported by the Quran.

[Al-Noor]

Bismillahi ar-Rahmani ar-Raheem

Anajmi is a moron and he has proved this in last 10 years of his stay on this forum...but again this jhahil should know it is a crime to call other muslim idol worshiper or kuffar.

funny thing is he is friendly to a person who is wajibul qatl according to prophet Muhammed(s) but he dont miss a chance to call kafir to other muslemin, typical hypocrite and a munafiq.

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful

BE CAREFUL WHO YOU CALL A KAFIR



Prophet Muhammad (Salalaho alehe wasalam) said : If a person says to his brother, O KAFIR (disbeliever) ! Then surely one of them is such. (i.e; Kafir) (Sahih Bukhari Volume 8 Book 73 Number 125)


Prophet Muhammad (Salalaho alehe wasalam) said : Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0117:



Prophet Muhammad (Salalaho alehe wasalam) has warned us that if a person calls another KAFIR and the person called that is not one, then the individual who made the accusation is a KAFIR. And he/she has to perform TAJDEED-E-IMAAN and TAJDEED-E-NIKAH (if married)



Therefore, if you call other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination, you could find that you have left Islam, according to the words of the Prophet (s.a.w.), in less than a second.



Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.



Imaan is our actual wealth. So we must be very careful while talking.



Waste no time in debating what a good Muslim should be. Be one!



May Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'la) save all of us from uttering KUFRIA KALMAT. (Allahuma Ameen)

[anajmi]

Biradar has raised doubts over the existence of Allah. He has claimed that a thousand years ago, it was ok to believe in Allah, but now he has developed so much that he has to doubt Allah's existence. Hence, he doubts the entire quran. But when it comes to his human idols (the panjatan) he will fret and fume, when someone else casts a doubt. There is actually no doubt about this idol worshipper.

[Al-Noor]

TAJDEED-E-IMAAN and TAJDEED-E-NIKAH is must on you, in last 10 years you have called muslemin kafir and mushriq for 100s of times.

[Al-Noor]

as long as Imam Hussain and Ashura is concern those who have doubts contact me I have answers to every thing you want to know, but the condition is you should be sincere and honest in your inquiry.

as long as people like JC/Anajmi and SBM holds membership on this forum it is impossible to talk about Islam here.

MASALAAM and ALLAH HAFIZ.

[anajmi]

Taawil - this is an interesting topic. According to my analysis, taawil was created to glorify humans and promote idol worship. You wont find a single taawil that actually glorifoes Allah. No taawil will explain to you the hidden benefits of salaah or zakaah or siyam or qiyam unless it has to do with the glorification of humans. There is no taawil detailing the hidden rewards of heaven or the severe punishments of hell. Taawil doesnt explain any ayah of the quran unless it somehow uses the ayah for the glorification of humans. The humans in question are the panjatan, the imams and then the dais.

If someone throws a doubt on the existence of Allah, will the experts on taawil like biradar and porus use taawil to clarify those doubts? Of course not. Infact they themselves will participate in enhancing or confirming those doubts. But will they use taawil to come to the aide of their human idols? You bet they will!

[SBM]

as long as Imam Hussain and Ashura is concern those who have doubts contact me I have answers to every thing you want to know, but the condition is you should be sincere and honest in your inquiry.

as long as people like JC/Anajmi and SBM holds membership on this forum it is impossible to talk about Islam here.

MASALAAM and ALLAH HAFIZ.

Does that means you are going to disappear and come back with another ID

[Al-Noor]

as long as Imam Hussain and Ashura is concern those who have doubts contact me I have answers to every thing you want to know, but the condition is you should be sincere and honest in your inquiry.

as long as people like JC/Anajmi and SBM holds membership on this forum it is impossible to talk about Islam here.

MASALAAM and ALLAH HAFIZ.

Does that means you are going to disappear and come back with another ID

no it just means you are an idiot....

[SBM]

^
It takes one to know the other.

[Al-Noor]

^
It takes one to know the other.

Sure as you say

[Ozdundee]

Does Alnoor know who SBM and GM are , their contribution to reform instead threatening them ? Goodness me

Likewise another shadow boxer on another topic criticised my English skills ...

...I wonder if these bloggers have done effort based reform activity, or taken steps to protect and improve the Bohra society by fighting off evil ..

we can remain modest until someone gets carried away and Crosses the line ...but they breath the freedom yet never ask how they received it.

[JC]

Scholar Bridar,

I asked WHO SAW the 'tears' in eyes of Gabriel? WHO narrative what was discussed between Hussain and Gabriel?? Hussain NEVER went to Zainab after his so-called conversation with Gabriel, so WHO could have told this??

Prophet was alive and he kept coming to people with what Gabriel told him or taught him.

So Gabriel can come to Ahle-e-Bait like he use to bring God's messages to Prophets ......... this is a good try because you are going to use this in future when your Dewta, the Dai uses this to 'inform' abdes/amtes that Gabriel came to him and delivered Allah's message as he is 'Dai-ul-Allah' .................. you are making a chain, Hussain, Imams and Dai ............

And you are all hate-lovers, you love to hate, go to any bohra majlis and you will how much full of hate they are ......... the amils sit on mimbur and curse and abuse others, and not only others but people of their own family...!!! you dare not question me or I will shower lanat after lanat upon you.

I have great respect for Ali and Hussain and have no doubts Karbala occurred but not in the way you portray and use it for your own benefits.

[humanbeing]

Can some one respond to following queries :

In the narrations I have heard from kothari mullahs.

Angel Gibreel came to Imam hussein, expressing his sadness and offer to help Imam hussein by wiping off the armies of yazid. various options are presented, strong winds, flooding, smack of lightening etc etc. Imam hussein turns down the offer and enquires about Allah's marzi .. to which Angel Gibreel mentions Surrender.

simple queries :

Do angels express emotions ? it is mentioned that gibreel was sad over Imam hussein's suffering.

Do angels have free will ?

In above narration, can Angel jibreel offer Imam hussein something that would be against Allah's marzi ? or was angel gibreel advised by Allah to offer help to imam hussein to test his commitment / courage etc.

Even JC raises a simple query, did Imam Hussein, narrate the Angel Gibreel Event to Sayyeda Zainab or Imam Zainul Abideen ?

Please note, I do not doubt sacrifice of Imam hussein and karbala event. what pains me is, when such a test of character, difficulty, determination, commitment and courage is messed up with supernatural future knowing, ghaib ni jaankari stuff ... added on by people to make the karbala event spicy and appealing .. if that is the case.

[nastik]

Dear KSEEKAR, thanks for the try to answer the following but all your replies are illogical and yeah if you want to blindly believe than I would not be suprised even if you believe in the story(bayan) someone asking for help when lion attacking him and he calls for Imam Hussain. Imam helps him and comes back to the karbala in between the war.

now if you rely on logics, see my replies in red.

I would like to answer some of you questions here...


1. As far as I know, the distance between Mecca and Karbala is around 1800kms.. it is highly unlikely the distance is more than that.. now.. Imam hussain left Mecca on the 8th of Zul Hajj and reached Karbala on the 2nd of Muharram.. which means they had a good 24 days to travel... They had a caravan of 50 odd members.. Highly unlikely that anyone was on foot... so 1800km in 24 days means 75Kms a day.... I don't see how that is 'impossible'.. difficult? yes... but not even close to impossible....

its not difficult but impossible. calculate and check it out. should take appox. 45 - 50 days minimum

2. Allah being merciful doesn't mean he promises anyone/everyone an easy life... Allah gave Mohammed (SAW) the duty to spread and preach islam.. the role comes with its benefits.. but im sure it comes with its truck loads of difficulties as well... Hussain (AS) in a way saved thousands from going astray... he has indeed helped the Prophet's cause.

[b]why was Allah asking his most beloved nabi for such sacrifice. Prophet Adam had done sin of eating apple. Mohammed had not even done that.
[/b]


3. He has asked for Allah's will to reinstate the fact that all this was for Allah.. not for his personal gain or benefit... else people would say that this was just another political endeavor in which one side lost and the other won..

why was jibrail comming to ask for help after ahle bayt was killed. was jibrail going to help against Allah's wish if Imam would say yes. Why did Imam wanted to prove to the people that this was for Allah, was he looking for fame from them.


4. Well.. how you define 'winning' is a matter of perspective. Maybe for you winning is just about gaining wealth, land and followers... for some it is about making a statement.... standing for what is right till the last breath...

winning is always resulted with achievment. if there had been higher number of converts into shia, than even one would consider it t be act of Allah and the results were achieved. here we are talking even the shia strength in Madina was slowly diminished. If you are spiritual you could say Allah did not want shia to actually become stronger, Imam Hussain was a highly respected man and maybe if he continued shia in madina would remain strong and which was not what Allah wished.



5. I don't understand your statement completely so I will not comment on it...

you have actually not understoodall of the above

[nastik]

there have been a few who claim to be the authority on muslims here and have preached a lot. but this thread was purely on questioning the facts of Karbala. people who do feel it should not be questioned, no one is forcing you all to read it.

people who believe they are true followers of Imam hussein, kindly answer these simple questions and prove the incident was such a great issue.

[Biradar]

Please note, I do not doubt sacrifice of Imam hussein and karbala event. what pains me is, when such a test of character, difficulty, determination, commitment and courage is messed up with supernatural future knowing, ghaib ni jaankari stuff ... added on by people to make the karbala event spicy and appealing .. if that is the case.

Before I can attempt to answer some of your question, I have some questions for you. Do you believe that there was a "supernatural" occurrence in the revelation of the Quran to the Prophet? Or did the Prophet just make the whole thing up? Second, what does your user-id "nastik" mean? Can you explain it to everyone on this forum?

[nastik]

Birader

you asked two questions which I reply

1. No I do not believe in supernatural occurrence in the revelation of the Quran to the Prophet. But would not want to debate or preach that here. If you wish you can email me on it and we can discuss it among us.

2. nastik means atheist, one who does not believe in god. there is no need for you be judgemental on it, its my belief and am not trying to impose it on anyone.

now please dont wash your hands away from answering my queries saying as I am not a believer there is no use arguing with me.

[Biradar]

Birader

you asked two questions which I reply

1. No I do not believe in supernatural occurrence in the revelation of the Quran to the Prophet. But would not want to debate or preach that here. If you wish you can email me on it and we can discuss it among us.

2. nastik means atheist, one who does not believe in god. there is no need for you be judgemental on it, its my belief and am not trying to impose it on anyone.

now please dont wash your hands away from answering my queries saying as I am not a believer there is no use arguing with me.

My friend: I have no problems with what you believe or don't. However, yes, I no longer wish to answer your question. You have already decided you know the truth. So what is the point? What would you gain discussing free-will of angels, about the divine reality of the panjaatan etc? You will simply continue to deny it. No point in going on further, at least here. You can PM me if you wish.

On the other hand, if there are others who want clarifications, we can discuss this further.

[Biradar]

Some people here questioned if angels can help, or if Gibraeel can appear to any other than the prophet. To them: Maulana Ali in his du'a "Nasr wal Mahaba" says:

"O Allah, support me with your armies, delight me with your good fortune, assist me and aid me by Jibrail, Mikail and Israfil and five thousand of your angels and keep them in my aid as you kept humans, jinns and birds in the charge of Nabi Sulayman …"

Also, the Qu'ran says in Q 8:9 [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."

Hence, it is not surprising that the angels came to the aid of Imam Hussain on the day of Aashura. The day of Aashura is like the day of Qiyaamat, in which great tribulations need to be faced. Is it surprising, that Imam Hussain, one who is purified (Q 33:33) and the final bead of the panjaatan is also visited by Jibareel leading a host of angels, offering him help?

[SBM]

However, yes, I no longer wish to answer your question. You have already decided you know the truth.

Biradar
Do not you think by reasoning you may change his mind too. I know you are going to quote me from Quran where Allaha said to Mohammed PBUH about closing the hearts and minds of some but again what do you think Dawat is? If it was not for the persistence of our Fatimid Aulaia whom you always quote then Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal would have never accepted Islam or Bohraism and become the Dai
So if you follow the Dai and there teaching do not you think you should follow their footsteps and convince unbelievers into believing and inviting them to right path.