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[kimanumanu]

Confused now. I did not say that because of Sahifa I don't need Imam. What I stated was, in my opinion, just having Quran as reference is not enough unless you fully understand and know everything that is contained in the Quran. You need other references or guidance material and I gave the Sahifa as one example of such material. The question is to you: do you use any other material aside from the Quran? Who do you ask if you have questions? Or are you fully knowledgeable about the Quran and are an authority by yourself for anything regarding the Quran?

[anajmi]

The prophet left two things with us. The quran and the hadith or the quran and the ahle bait.

Now, you say that you refer to the sahifa. The sahifa is neither the hadith nor the ahle bait. I know stupid point. But you get the point right?

Now, the current discussion is about the taawil of the quran. The quran says jannah will have fruits and rivers. Taawili conmen say that fruits and rivers is not really fruits and rivers but in order to know what it really is, you have to do sajda to the dai. You cant get it from the quran.

You are however confusing the issue by bringing namaz into the picture. These are two different topics. Namaz is not a part of taawil. Everything needed to be a good muslim or mumin or muhsin is clear and freely available. Whatever is not, is not needed and is corruption.

Fruits and rivers are not confusing. These taawilers are confusing the matters to appease people for whom faith in Allah alone is not enough. They are idol worshippers. They need human connections. So instead of faith in a supreme being that they are unable to comprehend, they have transposed super human qualities on ordinary human beings and tried to hide their idol worship behind this taawil.

[kimanumanu]

I brought up namaaz because that is the most basic requirement for being a good Muslim. You say that Prophet SAW left two things - which of those two options do you follow? Quran and hadith or Quran and Ahle-Bayt?

I accept your point about taawil being used to justify things - we have a very good example in the current drama about 53rd Dai. However, my question is not about the taawil aspect. I am genuinely curious and want to learn more about how one can go about being a Muslim with just the Quran as the reference? If I am not an Arabic speaker then surely I have to read a translation - there are many - which one do I choose? And if I am reading a translation, am I not then indirectly trusting the translator's understanding?

[Jai]

Brother Anajmi,

I request you to read my post once again.
I have never spoken from a bohri or any other sects point of view.
You quoted the incident of Adam a.s. and and there was question related to it I had therefore quoted the ayat 2:30 and gave details for discussion and clarification.
With my limited knowledge while analysing the ayat, I could only come up with 2 logical possibilities from the question I raised (how did angels know Adam's progeny will cause curruption and bloodshed?) Either 1) Angels having ilm e gaib or 2) the Angels had already witnessed a similar creation before.

Since you have read the Holy Quran more than me and have better understanding, I politely requested you to give your opinion if you agree with the first possibility or the second or else could there be a third possibility?

And I gave my conclusion that if you are of the opinion of the first reasoning that the angels have ilm e gaib then people Should not be surprised about superior and chosen creation granted ilm e gaib.

Else if you do not believe that the creation other than Allah swt can have ilm e gaib then the other and only possibility, according to my limited knowledge as I could not figure out the third possibility, is that the angels have witnessed similar creation in the past and were aware of its fitrah (nature) therefore they accurately gave out the true info. Then the theory of ismaili about Earlier creation also known by Adam and their cycles could be true and requires and is worthy of unbiased research and testing it weather it is supported and can be explained by Quran and Science.

Since I believe the high probability is the second one in this context and not the first and even Biradar gave the reference that since he has also not come across about the clear reference of Angels have ilm a gaib or he has termed it more appropriately if they see with the light of Allah swt. I am in no way proposing that the Angels do not Or cannot have ilm e gaib.

By posting the following you have further made it more clear my very simple post.

I can safely predict that humans are going to spill blood for the next 100 years. Let us talk in a hundred years and see if I have the light of Allah.

Well 100 years is too long. How about I predict that humans will continue to spill blood for the next 10 years. At the end of 10 years if I am right, will you accept me as your Imam?

Subhanallah, I am amazed at your display of !nteligence. My dear brother this is exactly what I am trying to explain. You can predict because you have witnessed humans. This is exactly my question.
Let me explain again. Ask any reasonable man, your relatives, intellectuals, colleagues, psychiatrists etc.. that will bloodshed and corruption not 10 or 100 years but ever end in human race? Any logical man will reply human race will end but corruption and bloodshed will not end in human race. It is evident from approx 12000 years since the time of Adam a.s that no era has passed without curruption and bloodshed and it has increased with time and today when we are in the most advanced phase of Human era known as space/nuclear age instead of reducing, corruption and bloodshed has increased enormously and is so widespread that we cannot imagine world without it. Imagine in coming time human race is wiped out/extinct from the face of the earth due to any reason (world war/ Ice Age/ doomsday).
Now if few of us were Angels in the heaven and had witnessed how for millenniums human kind since their beginning were ungrateful to their creator, killed, robbed, disobeyed, denied Him swt, His swt guides, His warnings, transgressed , lied, cheated, planned and plotted and all the heinous crimes and will neither praise or thank him (enough). Now just imagine after a some period Allah swt tells us that I am going to create Human from Mud/Clay on earth, but natural we will react that are you going to create the one who will cause their in curruption and Bloodshed instead we are in your praise constantly and are obedient. But If He swt said I am going to create my vicegerent (for example) hydramansa from water on earth or Allumina from gasious alluminium on Nubiru if this was the case will the Angels object and question Allah swt or will they increase in their praises and will be more eager and excited to know about the new creation?

From your own admission you can predict 10 years safely, not only you but anyone you ask will reply the same. The question is how can we predict or foretell the future? Answer is because history is evident and we have witnessed humans and are aware of its characteristics. But if I asked you about hydramansa or alumina you or anyone else cant predict a day why? Answer is simple, if you dont know the thing, its characteristics, how can anyone foretell. Only one narrow possibility could be knowledge of the unseen.

I hope you got this time and let me pose the question again to all who deny Ilm e Gaib possesed by creation other than Allah swt or deny the Theory or possibility of multiple Adams and who say that there are no deep treasures of knowledge in the Holy Quran

I would like to know from you your opinion, how come the Angels accurately foretell about the new creation without ever seeing it, just from hearing Allah swt intentions? Was it because the Angels had ilm e gaib or similar creation had been witnessed by them earlier (or in different plane) or is there a third possibility?

Brother Anajmi, there was nothing with regard to bohraism or dai, It was plain and simple and only Holy Quran and a simple logical reasoning. I did not expect such a reply atleast not from you. If you were related to astrophysics, quantum physics etc... You would not mock rather be more excited and start researching and trying to find out what more info is available and try to see if it is in conjunction with modern science and utilize all the available info to find the missing links. For instance let me give you an example, today science tells us that our sun alone is millions of time greater than the earth and there are billions of star bigger than sun in our galaxy alone and the distance between the stars is in light years and there are billions of galaxies out there in our universe. The number is beyond comprehension of human minds. Let me make it simple for understanding, imagine sahara desert is a universe, single grain of sand will be the equivalent of earth in its comparison. If someone finds a blue color sand grain in Sahara and says there cant be other blue grain in whole Sahara desert is just very stupid, a frog in the pond. Intelligent person will not deny the possibility. If even in million galaxies there could be one planet with life still we could have millions of planets in universe. Science is working on string theory, a multiverse theory with the possibility of parallel universes. Even if in whole universe there was a single earth and its twin made of anti matter still we would have high possibility of more earth like planets and life in other universes.

My question was ain e ilm, full of knowledge, an alim accepted it and started contemplating and a non alim As usual in denial and mocked it without giving it a second taught. My question in no way is reducing Allah swt instead it increases our mental ability to think beyond our present limits and to see further that there is more to explore in His swt unlimited creation. This brings you close to Allah swt and only increases ones faith. On the other hand your objections and denials, if you can realise, are limiting Allah swt and his ability.

@Biradar - Thanks for the time you give to this forum. Your opinion of the above will be highly appreciated.

@ Anajmi - My apologies if I offended you in any way. But I expected better from you. Leave this hatred of Ahle bait and their lovers. Just try to change the attitude from denial to acceptance of possibility. Constantly repeating of same sentences does not make one smart and can be irritating to others. Wish you luck. Peace


@ all the members - I am not proposing if the Angels have knowledge of the unseen or if there were multiple Adams. When I read the Incident of Adam a.s. on this forum while contemplating the Ayat the Question hit me and I could only figure out 2 possibilities with my limited knowledge and I know some forum members fundamental belief is No human can have ilm e gaib and the theory of multiple Adams is false and is created by Ismailis for selfish motives, therefore, I want to learn their viewpoint on this. It would be interesting. Small request kindly avoid unnecessary comments and try to add in your valuable comments. thanks


Whatever is true is due to grace of Allah and whatever wrong is due to me and I seek forgiveness from the Almighty for it and request all to correct if they find any mistake. Thanks in advance

[anajmi]

Either 1) Angels having ilm e gaib or 2) the Angels had already witnessed a similar creation before.

The first one is easy. In the same ayah Allah tells the angels that He knows what they know not. In 2:32 the angels claim that they know nothing more than what Allah has taught them. So no the angels do not have ilm e gaib. No one does.

According to mufassireen, angels probably witnessed the jinns spilling blood on earth before the humans. Remember humans have not been created yet but jinns have been. Infact, we have been told by the prophet that shaitaan did sajda to Allah on every bit of earth. It is also possible that angels have witnessed other creation elsewhere doing something similar. Allah warns us in the quran that if we do not behave he will replace us with a better creation. Maybe we are a creation that is better than a previous creation that spilled a lot of blood. I agree with these more logical opinions than multi adams cyclical bull that has no basis in the quran except someones hollywood imagination.

You have posted a lot, i will try and respond in bits and pieces.

[anajmi]

Well, i kind of browsed through the rest of your post and i dont see anything even remotely convincing about multi adams. Just because a creation follows the same pattern doesnt mean that the first of them is being re-cycled.

[Jai]

Either 1) Angels having ilm e gaib or 2) the Angels had already witnessed a similar creation before.

The first one is easy. In the same ayah Allah tells the angels that He knows what they know not. In 2:32 the angels claim that they know nothing more than what Allah has taught them. So no the angels do not have ilm e gaib. No one does.
Good. so according to you angels do not have ilm e gaib. No one does is debatable. Anyways, for sake of discussion let us agree the first possibility is out of question.

According to mufassireen, angels probably witnessed the jinns spilling blood on earth before the humans. Remember humans have not been created yet but jinns have been. Infact, we have been told by the prophet that shaitaan did sajda to Allah on every bit of earth. It is also possible that angels have witnessed other creation elsewhere doing something similar. Allah warns us in the quran that if we do not behave he will replace us with a better creation. Maybe we are a creation that is better than a previous creation that spilled a lot of blood. I agree with these more logical opinions than multi adams cyclical bull that has no basis in the quran except someones hollywood imagination.



Agreed, after long period few from the jinns rebelled and transgressed the divine law. Indeed Azazel (iblees/shaitan) used to worship Allah very much that is why he was raised to the first heaven and there he worshipped Allah for centuries and was raised to the next heaven and like wise he was raised to seventh heaven and after worshipping Allah swt for millenniums in seventh heaven, he was made Ridwan guardian of paradise (very high rank).
For the very same argument I quoted the ayah of surah Sad verse 71 - "[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay."
Allah said Human being (bashar) from Clay and not jinns from fire. So arguing that the angels objections were due to witnessing jinns or different creation is weak but a similar creation or a bashar makes more sense.
Regarding multiple Adam and their cycle, when something starts and end is known as its cycle. As for humankind creation of Adam is starting of the cycle and our end will be completion of our cycle. Similarly previous creation might have had starting and end. Makes more sense to me. Allah swt knows the truth and those whom Allah swt has granted the knowledge.


You have posted a lot, i will try and respond in bits and pieces.
Cause, you did not get the point initially. But I guess the effort was worth it as atleast you agreed that there could be a possibility of other creations.

Well, i kind of browsed through the rest of your post and i dont see anything even remotely convincing about multi adams. Just because a creation follows the same pattern doesnt mean that the first of them is being re-cycled.
The post was not to prove the theory, but to know about reason behind the angels ability to foretell. Since, the question raised the possibility of other creations other than angels, jinns and the humans and I have not come across references from other madhabs so far for other creations but from the ismailis therefore decided to discuss. Recycle was not what I meant but replacement would be more sensible as Allah swt warned us if we do not abide by his commands or behave he will replace us with a better creation. With regard to the theory of multiple adams, it is a deep subject and I am sure whatever if it comes from the imam a.s. then it should be supported by the verses of the Holy Quran. For the theory I have come accross some interesting references. Since, I am not an expert and this is not the right topic, therefore, I will refrain from quoting it for now and not drag the discussion more.

My replies in green.

[FakhruddinMAdamji]

I turned 71 yesterday. Last week I published a small book called "Zanzibar to Chicago:A Bohra Muslim"s search for God". Please read it if you have time. I think you will enjoy it and it will stimulate a discussion amongst Bohras.

[anajmi]

Cause, you did not get the point initially. But I guess the effort was worth it as atleast you agreed that there could be a possibility of other creations.

Actually Allah talks about other creations in the quran. So i have absolutely no doubt in other creations. The problem is with multi adams which has absolutely no basis in the quran. Yes creations will have a beginning and an end. How do you get multi adams from that?

[anajmi]

For the theory I have come accross some interesting references. Since, I am not an expert and this is not the right topic, therefore, I will refrain from quoting it for now and not drag the discussion more.

Why am I not surprised?