Imamat - Shia-Sunni Debate

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#1

Unread post by fayyaaz » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:18 pm

Who told your forbears in the Yemen that Imam has gone into hiding? It was the Dai, of course. So, it is the Dai's word. No Bohra has any independent knowledge of the Imam. It is what successive Dais have been telling them.

Maqbool
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#2

Unread post by Maqbool » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:47 pm

Now don't worry about Imam. Very soon SMS will be projected as Imam by giving any vague reason and abde will except the same blindly.

Badri Lacewala has indicated this coming belief in his speech.

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#3

Unread post by zinger » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:03 am

Maqbool wrote:Now don't worry about Imam. Very soon SMS will be projected as Imam by giving any vague reason and abde will except the same blindly.

Badri Lacewala has indicated this coming belief in his speech.

sorry to disappoint you but in the eventuality of this happening, i can tell you one thing for sure, he will be laughed of, if not fatwa'ed by Iran

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#4

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:37 am

Maqbool is right. If Moula declares himself the Imam, Bohras will gladly follow because they want to remain Bohras. Being Bohra means believing whatever the Dai (actually, the Imam in hiding) says.

Don't worry about any fatwa from Iranians. They do not believe in the Bohra Imam and they will not follow this Dai.

AgnosticIndian
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#5

Unread post by AgnosticIndian » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:24 am

IF there is an Imam & he actually appears, there is no way the Dai will endorse or agree to the Imam being Imam as it will bring shutters on his empire. Therefore now the attempt to make the Dai into Imam.

What Badri was doing was just testing the waters with reaction. There hasn't been much against it except in social media. Normal Abde will lap up everything.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:09 am

:evil: By the way, as long as i am not using physical violence i am free to do what i want. Thanks.

I know some people would preder the bohras to remain ignorant cause otherwise they'd be loosing their ill gotten gains. But hey, as long as i am not using physical violence. ......

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#7

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:11 pm

anajmi wrote:Dear Ruqaiyya Ben,
Narrative shortened by Admin/Moderator due to duplicity
It is not a concept or construction of ideology my brother, it is a fact which is right from Tauheed,
----IMAM JAFA US SADIQ a.s ye aa ayaat nu zikar (Yanaabi al-Mawaddah chap 71) maa behtar andaaz maa kidu che, aney unseen allude karein che qaim ni taraf.
In this ayah it is the prophet (saw) who is saying that the unseen is only for Allah and he is also with those who await. You seriously think the prophet is waiting for the unseen Imam uz zaman?
The main problem is that the Imam were simply rulers who wanted to maintain an iron grip on the throne and hence they created these interpretations of the quran that have been fooling the ignorants for centuries. I could just as easily claim that these ayahs are referring to the family of Shaikh Anajmi and this has been elaborated in the books written by his forefathers titled - "The greatness of the family of Shaikh Anajmi and their knowledge of unseen"!! The greatness of shaikh anajmi as elaborated by none other than shaikh anajmi himself and the Quran where all ayahs of greatness and righteousness refer to shaikh anajmi as explained by none other than shaikh anajmi himself!![/quote]

Brother anajmim
You have heard many wahabi lectures it seems, its in their blood to show the half filled glass of water as half empty.
IMAM UZ ZAMAAN alayhissalam par tamaaru bharoso na hoyi, tou mein IMAM UZ ZAMAAN alayhissalam ne bulaawi ne laau ke tamey ehne jowo aney bharoso karo,

Hamaru tou ALLAH wo che jene hameye joyu nathi... which kind of faith you have?

You want to see the noor before believing on him?
How come you are asking me where is your IMAM a.s? as if I have seen him and knowing his address ?
Are you making fun of me?

IMAM ghaib maa hoye to jowaaye? You are completely brain washed,
whatever I will quote or speak you will take just opposite of that, its not your problem its the problem of the whole wahabiyat.

Shining of sun and flowing of seas you took as a comedy, You are stating in your words fictional Imam Uz Zaman a.s, nazubillahhhhh!!! don't you have any fear?

The same I have heard in one of the lecture of Tauseef ur rahman (Wahabi of saudi arabia) search on you tube you will find it.

One non muslim asked him, where is your ALLAH s.w.t, if you can show me I will accept Islam.

Or if you can give me any proof that I will meet Allah on the day of judgement I will accept Islam,

Tauseef said in between a huge crowd, see The glorious Quraan says everything along with the existence of ALLAH.

Person asked prove me this Quraan is from Allah,

Tauseef said yes it is from Allah to Prophet Mohammad s.a.w, it is a final revelation there is no holy book after QURAN there is no prophet after RASULULLAH s.a.w

Person asked, show me where is your prophet, is he alive? I want to ask few questions from him.

Tauseef said no but his hadees and scriptures are alive along with the references,

Person asked who is guarantor of these references,

Tauseef said I myself as an Islamic debator I am guarantor,

Person asked what is the guarantee than after believing you I will be in Jannat,

Tauseef said because Quran says if you will believe in a true GOD you will be surely in Jannat,

Person asked it may be not from ALLAH and prophet written what he was feeling that time.

Tauseef said no way its all from ALLAH, person asked prove me, I want to see the prophet from my naked eyes, or your Allah.

Person said sorry boss when I will see your ALLAH then only I will believe on it, right now I am getting late going to the Church!

Tauseef asked did you see the Jesus or believing on him without seeing him, person said I didn't see him my PARENTS said jesus were there that is why I am believing and your people said to you so you believe in Allah, right now we both are in the same boat, if you will show me Allah I will accept your Islam for sure good bye!

This is the case!!!

You need to see a noor, to believe on him.

If you believe on ALLAH only by reading Quran and Qalama, I also believe the existence of IMAM through scriptures and holy books.

You are spoiling the silsila of noor which itself is from ALLAH swt,

Tauheed - The doctrine of the oneness of Allah swt

Few lines on Tauheed from my sabaqs .

What do you know about the word "aaleen" search this word in your scriptures what my sabaq says about aaleen is this...

Aaleen comes from ALI and the ones who were with ALI...

What ALLAH says in Tawheed, O iblis tu kem Adam aagal sajado nathi karto? Su taney taqabbur che? ke tu aaleen maa si thayi gayo?

Je waqat duniya maa koi insaan ni zaat paida nothi thayi tey waqat ALLAH farmaawey "su taney taqabuur che" ke tu aaleen maa si thayi gayo? koi biju tey waqat nathi pachi AALEEN MAA SI THAYI GAYO SU KAAM FARMAAYU?

Aaleen is the word which has been used for ALI a.s and the noors along with the ALI a.s

38:75
قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ

بِيَدَيَّ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ (38:75)

---------------------------



in the above aayah kareema, Allah(S) says to iblis that why dont you prostrate to Adam(A) then gives two options or reasons for iblis's refusal.

1. takabbur
2. or are you from 'aaleen'

now, ISHARA in kalam Allah cannot be a hypothetical so there are personalities or 'musharun elay' addressed as 'aaleen' same root letter as ALI. however, the reason iblis did not do sajda because either of takabbur or belonging to aaleen. he is obviously not from aaleen. The Makaam of Aaleen was far far away from Iblees. Sajda was not for AALEEN, Aaleen ne ADAM ne sajdo nathi karwu AALEEN was there before ADAM.

it is also clear from Qoran shareef that categorically every single 'angel' prostrated without exception so aaleen cannot be angels either.

therefore the big question is Who are these aaleen,

(BIG QUESTION FOR MUNAFEQEEN NOT FOR MUMINEENS)
WE KNOW WHO WERE AALEENS.

Now on the main topic of Imam uz zamaan, agar AALEENS Adam na qabal che to AALEENS KHATAM LAG ANEY KHATAM NA BAADE BHI REHSE. IMAM UZ ZAMAAN IS THE NOOR OF THAT AALEEN.

Logo na aqeeda kharab na karo, IMAM UZ ZAMAAN ne fictional na kaho,
Noor ne bujhaawa ni koshish na karo, PANJETAN paak ne aam logo maa shamil na karo, IMAM UZ ZAMAAN a.s aney NABI ISAA a.s na reappearance par aqeedo mazboot raakho.
Wassalam

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#8

Unread post by Al-Noor » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:17 pm

Brother anajmim
You have heard many wahabi lectures it seems, its in their blood to show the half filled glass of water as half empty.
only if u know what he is :lol:

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:23 pm

Jokes apart, now let us deal with your post.
You want to see the noor before believing on him?
Allah's noor is visible in the entire creation. His noor is visible in His message - the Quran. The noor of your Imam uz zamaan is visible in a corrupt Dai and people like Lacewalla.

Faith in the unseen is a requirement of Islam. But that doesn't mean any unseen. I don't need to have faith in a thread headed monkey which is unseen to be a muslim. Similarly, there is no need to have faith in an unseen Imam uz zamaan to be a muslim. The only unseen that matters is the unseen mentioned in the Quran. Heaven, hell, angels, and whatever else that is a part of the Quran. As I have shown in previous posts, Imam uz zamaan is not a part of that unseen. He is unseen not because of the required faith in unseen, but he is unseen because he first and foremost went into hiding in fear of his life.
I also believe the existence of IMAM through scriptures and holy books.
Right. People believe in Ram, Sita and Hanuman through their own scriptures and holy books. Those who call themselves Muslims should stick to the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) and neither of them require faith in an unseen Imam uz zamaan. As an example I quoted in my previous posts, books written by shaikh anajmi describing the greatness of shaikh anajmi are of no value!!

As far as Tauseef and the non-muslim is concerned, I am not sure what your point is. Are you referring to yourself as the non-muslim? Or are you somehow trying to show that an unseen Imam is the same as an unseen Allah? Allah sent prophets and messages. What has your Imam uz zamaan sent? A corrupt Dai? Allah sent signs, what has your Imam uz zamaan sent? Anything that you can share with us?
Aaleen is the word which has been used for ALI a.s and the noors along with the ALI a.s
I am sorry, but this has no basis on any ayah of the Quran or hadith of the prophet (saw). This is simply elevation of humans that we want to elevate for no reason beyond admiration to the point of idol worship.
now, ISHARA in kalam Allah cannot be a hypothetical so there are personalities or 'musharun elay' addressed as 'aaleen' same root letter as ALI.


I have a cousin who is named Ali. It has the same root too. Does that mean he is from the aaleen? Ali with any other name would've had the exact same character. We have created these fantastic tales to convince ourselves of our own delusions.

This is a big problem that we have. We take words from the Quran and then twist them to fit into what we have started believing in. Now consider this word "aaleen". Who was the first one who said that "aaleen" refers to Ali and the Imams? Does the Quran say that? No. Did the prophet (saw) say that? No. Did Ali himself say that he is the one referred to as "aaleen"? No. Did Hassan or Hussain say that they are the "aaleen"? I guarantee you, the did not. This fitting was made later on. And you will find many such words that have been twisted by the bohra clergy to fit in people and elevate their status to that of Allah himself. Let us look at the Quran with an open mind. Loose all the inhibitions and fear of idols and the Quran will be enlightening.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:35 pm

The word aaleen comes in another place in the Quran.

23:46 - Where it refers to the pharoah and his high priests as referring to themselves as aaleen.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#11

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:17 pm

Ruqayya madam, did not Moula ask you not to share your sabak knowledge with outsiders? That is because your Moula wants to protect you from ridicule that you are likely to face if you become "aaleen" with the knowledge you receive there, which you have just demonstrated.

The root of the word 'aaleen' is not 'ali'. They both have the root alif, laam, waaw.

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Elw

'aaleen' refers to those who consider themselves above all others, the self-exalted ones.

Now that you know what 'aaleen' means, let me let you in into a secret of the ayat. When Allah asks Iblis if he has become one of the 'aaleen', He is asking if Iblis considered himself in the select company of the Dais 51,52 and 53, the self exalted ones, the original 'aaleen'.

So next time, hide your sabak lessons to save yourself from further ridicule, you silly girl.

dawedaar
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#12

Unread post by dawedaar » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:15 pm

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1kaISYA ... I/viewform

New lisaan term - hatt ul imkaan

Wonder what it means :roll:

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#13

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:52 pm

fayyaaz wrote:The root of the word 'aaleen' is not 'ali'. They both have the root alif, laam, waaw.
Nobody picked up the error in the above sentence from my previous post? Gosh, we have somnabulant participants on this forum! :roll:

The root is ain, laam, waaw; you sleep-walkers!

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#14

Unread post by fayyaaz » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:57 pm

dawedaar wrote:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1kaISYA ... I/viewform

New lisaan term - hatt ul imkaan

Wonder what it means :roll:
Meaning "to the limit of possibility".

It is either a typo or a sign of an ignorant writer. It should be hatta al-imkaan. Since hatta ends in an 'a' the next word cannot start with 'u', a fundamental Arabic lexical rule.

dawedaar
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#15

Unread post by dawedaar » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:37 am

Mumineen Mukhliseen Muminaat Muskhlisaat,

Hamna eim khabar aawi che kay Huzur Alaa TUS Wednesday ya Thursday Houston si Galiyakot tashreef lai jaai che.

Apan Dallas na Mumineen 18 waras si piyaasa che ane ummed ma che kay Maula TUS aapnaa gaam ma padhare.

Apne eim bhi ummed hati kay Burhanuddin Maula apna gaam ma tashreef laawe.

Aawti kaalehar eik Mumin Muminah ane ehna Farzand Maula ni Hazrat ma Hazir thai. ane Maula ne Ilhahan Araz guzare kay

Maula Dallas Padhare Padhare Padhare j ..

Aawti kaale Madresa na Farzando bhi Houston aawe. Kaale Madresa nai thai. Sagla Hazrat Aaliyah ma Qasd kare.

Eik Eik Mumin Araz karwa ne hazir thai.

--
Abde Syedna TUS
Aliasgar Sk Najmuddin Jamali
1324 South Nursery Road
Irving Texas 75060

Maqbool
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#16

Unread post by Maqbool » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:07 am

zinger wrote:
Maqbool wrote:Now don't worry about Imam. Very soon SMS will be projected as Imam by giving any vague reason and abde will except the same blindly.

Badri Lacewala has indicated this coming belief in his speech.

sorry to disappoint you but in the eventuality of this happening, i can tell you one thing for sure, he will be laughed of, if not fatwa'ed by Iran
There are so many changes happened even against sharia but no one laughed off. It is excepted as of gospel in bohras' world. Iran has nothing to do with this.

Is the trimmed beard of Badri is indicating any change is in pipe !

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#17

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:30 am

Ruqqaya has introduced an interesting and mysterious verse of the Qur'an, i.e. 38:75. This verse is "He said, 'O Iblis! What prevented you from prostrating to one whom I created with both My Hands? Are you arrogant or are you of the exalted ones?" Iblis answers (Q 38:76) "He said, 'I am better than him. You created me from fire and You created him from clay'".

[Another way to put Allah's question: there are only two reasons you won't prostrate to Adam: First, either you are arrogant and think you are better than Adam (and you think that is sufficient reason to disobey me) or, second, you are exempt from prostration as you belong to those who are self-exalted". Also, Allah, being All-Knowing already knew the answer which Iblis would give, and which category he belonged to.]

There are two strange things about this verse. First, why did Allah say He creates Adam with both hands? Why not one hand? Moreover, what do "two hands" mean here? Does Allah have hands? Also, as Ruqqaya pointed out, its not clear who are meant by the "exalted ones". It is clear that it could not be the angels as they were ordered to prostrate to Adam. So who were these "exalted ones"?

Incidentally, Iblis's answer clearly shows that he belonged to the group of arrogant beings, and, due to his arrogance and lack of knowledge, was unable to understand the implication of these two things (i.e. Allah's hands and the "l-ʿālīna") and became accursed and was thrown out from the assembly of the angels. Those here, who are unable, or unwilling to understand, will suffer the same fate.

In one meaning, the "two hands" of Allah symbolize the two aspects of Adam's being, the form of the world and the form of divine Reality, i.e, Adam was the Perfect Man (al-Insānal-Kāmil). These two "hands" are other Universal Intellect and the Universal Soul. Some Sunni exegete say that the "hands" refer to blessing and power, which can't be complete true, as these are present in all existent. To Adam belonged vicegerency, a station which can not be reached by angels or the lesser messengers of god.

However, despite all of these sublime characteristics of Adam, Allah asked Iblis if he thought he belonged to the "exalted ones". Obviously, if Iblis belonged to the group of exalted ones, then he would be exempt from prostrating to Adam. He was not, and as he refused to prostrate, he was accursed. Hence, these exalted ones had a station even greater than that of Adam.

I should mention that many verses of the Quran are very mysterious. Specially the ones which apparently occur in the realm of angels and before the creation of the world. For example, in 7:172 Allah asks the question "Alastu birabbikum" [Am I not your Lord?]. One should reflect to whom is this question addressed? These verses are highly symbolic and veil deep mysteries of creation and hint to the nature of the Panjatan, whose creation and exalted station preceded all other things. They can not be understood by simply looking at the text. Unlike the claims of our resident literalist, it is possible, and in fact true, that the Prophet taught the mysteries to Ali, who revealed them in linguistic form, from the non-linguistic prophetic treasure left in his heart and mind. This process was similar, in some ways, to the revelation of the Qur'anic text in Arabic, from the non-linguistic revelation which descended into the heart of the Prophet all at once on the Night of Power (Q 97:1).

As is said, the Prophet brought the tanzil (i.e. the qur'an) and Ali its ta'wil. Right after the death of the Prophet, due to the mischief and conspiracy of the usurpers, this ta'wil was not immediately revealed, and remained hidden with Ali who taught it to his close companions. Later, the Imams were the bearers of the secrets of ta'wil, revealing them to whom they pleased. Note that there would be no more tanzil, as that was the role of the Prophet.

Hence, even if Ruqayya has made a few errors and perhaps misunderstood or misremembers her sabaaqs, one should pay close attention and spend some time contemplating Q 38:75.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#18

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:01 am

Biradar,

A laudable and a very scholarly response. Even if it is in the realm of speculation, it leaves unanswered who the 'self-exalted' are? They cannot be Panjatan as they were not self-exalted but exalted by Allah Himself.

Self-exalted is a synonym for arrogant and in another ayat, Quran refers to the Pharaoh and his scholars as the self-exalted ones, the aaleen. Quran uses the two questions (1) are you arrogant? (2) are you self-exalted? as a means of emphasis. In effect, it is the same question worded differently.

I do not see taawil in this ayat at all. It appears to be perfectly clear without any hidden meaning. Quran does warn about seeking taawil in what is perfectly clear in Its words. Connection between Iblis and Pharaoh in the two ayats where the word aaleen is used is clear. Pharaoh had chosen the path of Iblis.

alivasan
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 9:28 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#19

Unread post by alivasan » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:11 am

Ruqaiyya wrote:
canadian wrote: Narrative shortened due by Admin/Moderator due to duplicity
Bro. anajmi:
And they say, ‘Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say, ‘The unseen is only for Allah, therefore wait; surely I too am with those who await.’
, je Isa alayhissalam na saathey zuhoor karse ehma shak thawa si saglu khatam thai jaase.
Rukkaiya Aunty,
Did you ever attended the sabaks in badri mahal masjid, mumbai every wednesday given by aliasger bs?

you seem to be completely brain washed in sabaks wherever you went on topic of immam uz zaman.your arguments on topic are poor and one on" aaleen" is ridiculous.awaiting your reply on bro fayyaz post.

Seems Ruqqaiya aunty is men(zaada or amil) in disguise on forum to save himself from debate

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#20

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:31 am

alivasan wrote:
Ruqaiyya wrote: Narrative shortened by Admin/Moderator due to duplicity
The concept of IMAM UZ ZAMAN???
Is it a concept???
It is not a concept or construction of ideology my brother,
Khatemul Ambiya par Islam kaayam thayu che, Khatemul ambiya par Usool e deen Nubuwat lag pohochu che,
Tauheed, Risalat, Imamat, Nubuwat-----one thing is remaining now which is Qayamat, Qayamat na saaheb Imam uz zamaan che, je Isa alayhissalam na saathey zuhoor karse ehma shak thawa si saglu khatam thai jaase.
Rukkaiya Aunty,
Did you ever attended the sabaks in badri mahal masjid, mumbai every wednesday given by aliasger bs?

you seem to be completely brain washed in sabaks wherever you went on topic of immam uz zaman.your arguments on topic are poor and one on" aaleen" is ridiculous.awaiting your reply on bro fayyaz post.

Seems Ruqqaiya aunty is men(zaada or amil) in disguise on forum to save himself from debate

Ok great consider me as an Amil or Zada may be no issues,
I don't want you to consider me what I am, consider me whatever you want to consider me, its none of my business.

But don't think any wahabi can change my belief, you people have hired wahabis on this forum to make debates to the panjetanis and to change their aqeedas and anajmi is one of them it seems ( I am not sure)

My belief of Imam will remain same till the end and mind yourself anajmi I don't prostrate infront of Television.

I have told already, what you will say is workable only for your group of people, not for me or MUMEENS as my belief is very strong.

You guys have told Imam uz zamaan as a fictional idea and story, what so big if you abuse DAAI ZAMAAN tus. I can easily understand you all now.

Wassalam.

Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#21

Unread post by Al-Noor » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:23 am

you people have hired wahabis on this forum to make debates to the panjetanis and to change their aqeedas and anajmi is one of them it seems ( I am not sure)
I always said wahabi idiots should not be allowed to comment on bohra and Imam belief, and here is one more proof some abde comes with genuine inquires and now she is wasting her time and energy confronting wahabi instead of concentrating real issues of the community...
Dear Admin how long will it take for you to understand that Imam or Imamat is not our issue
we all bohra already agree on it,
please BAN this wahabi Anajmi from derailing threads and discussions which leads us nowhere and finally confuse our readers who comes here to question dai doings and other factors.

Ruqaiyya
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#22

Unread post by Ruqaiyya » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:49 am

anajmi wrote:Jokes apart, now let us deal with your post.
You want to see the noor before believing on him?
Allah's noor is visible in the entire creation. His noor is visible in His message - the Quran. The noor of your Imam uz zamaan is visible in a corrupt Dai and people like Lacewalla.

Faith in the unseen is a requirement of Islam. But that doesn't mean any unseen. I don't need to have faith in a thread headed monkey which is unseen to be a muslim. Similarly, there is no need to have faith in an unseen Imam uz zamaan to be a muslim. The only unseen that matters is the unseen mentioned in the Quran. Heaven, hell, angels, and whatever else that is a part of the Quran. As I have shown in previous posts, Imam uz zamaan is not a part of that unseen. He is unseen not because of the required faith in unseen, but he is unseen because he first and foremost went into hiding in fear of his life.
I also believe the existence of IMAM through scriptures and holy books.
Right. People believe in Ram, Sita and Hanuman through their own scriptures and holy books. Those who call themselves Muslims should stick to the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) and neither of them require faith in an unseen Imam uz zamaan. As an example I quoted in my previous posts, books written by shaikh anajmi describing the greatness of shaikh anajmi are of no value!!

As far as Tauseef and the non-muslim is concerned, I am not sure what your point is. Are you referring to yourself as the non-muslim? Or are you somehow trying to show that an unseen Imam is the same as an unseen Allah? Allah sent prophets and messages. What has your Imam uz zamaan sent? A corrupt Dai? Allah sent signs, what has your Imam uz zamaan sent? Anything that you can share with us?
Aaleen is the word which has been used for ALI a.s and the noors along with the ALI a.s
I am sorry, but this has no basis on any ayah of the Quran or hadith of the prophet (saw). This is simply elevation of humans that we want to elevate for no reason beyond admiration to the point of idol worship.
now, ISHARA in kalam Allah cannot be a hypothetical so there are personalities or 'musharun elay' addressed as 'aaleen' same root letter as ALI.


I have a cousin who is named Ali. It has the same root too. Does that mean he is from the aaleen? Ali with any other name would've had the exact same character. We have created these fantastic tales to convince ourselves of our own delusions.

This is a big problem that we have. We take words from the Quran and then twist them to fit into what we have started believing in. Now consider this word "aaleen". Who was the first one who said that "aaleen" refers to Ali and the Imams? Does the Quran say that? No. Did the prophet (saw) say that? No. Did Ali himself say that he is the one referred to as "aaleen"? No. Did Hassan or Hussain say that they are the "aaleen"? I guarantee you, the did not. This fitting was made later on. And you will find many such words that have been twisted by the bohra clergy to fit in people and elevate their status to that of Allah himself. Let us look at the Quran with an open mind. Loose all the inhibitions and fear of idols and the Quran will be enlightening.

You have abused Islam, not only prophets and Imams, you are taking aaleen for your cousin Ali, is he maasum? is he pure?
You are comparing MAULANA ALI with your cousin Ali shame!!!

You have twisted the QURAN we not, after demolishing the qabr mubarak of FATEMA TUS ZAHRA BIBI a.s saudi wahabis said, we have demolished the grave of Fatema because shia was calling her noor, why to call a person noor who was born with impurity. Nauzubillah

FATEMA TUS ZAHRA bibi was born with impurity, then what about those millions of riwayat which says she is the head of all the women of Janaah, do not compare these riwayats with ram sita and hanuman's fairy tales

A noor can be head of Jannah not a human like me or you or your cousin brother Ali,

You said unseen from Quran is hell heaven angels and we should believe only on these unseen things because it is mentioned in the Quran,

You have no idea before Quran also RASULULLAH was knowing about these unseen facts, if before QURAN also NABI was known to Angels, Hell, Heaven and all it means, RASULULLAH's noor is greater than the glorious Quran,

Before dancing and quoting from the Quran Ayats don't forget to praise RASULULLAH s.a.w, who was a noor before Quran and after Quran.

Then you have given a hilarious example of Ram Sita and Hanuman, Shame! It means the scriptures which has been written by Idol worshipers and rishi munis have been compared to the books which has been written by NABI WASI AND IMAMS shameeeee!!!
What a comparison superb!!!

You have merged the idol worshipers with the NABIS AND IMAMS who have sacrificed their life to save ISLAM AND KALAMA shameee!!!!

And yes you cannot understand AALEEN because your senior Umar ibne khattab did the same, when they came to IMAM ALI'S house to burn it, FATEMA TUS ZAHRA told them you are dragging ALI on the roads don't think you will spoil the noor of aaleen by doing this.

We, the MUMEEN and Shia kholosa of MAULANA ALI IBNEY ABI TAALIB believe that it is indeed permissible to call the Prophet & Imam “Noor”. The Qur’an has chosen and applied this word itself to the Prophet & Imam. The companions would often call all of them as a “Noor”. However, it is often at this point, that those who oppose this view believe from some erroneous conviction that they hold, that we claim the Panjetan was not human!!

This is indeed strange and a gross accusation. For those who claim that he was not a human, have clearly ventured out of the bounds of Islam, and have entered into Kuffr. The belief of Mumeen is that the Noble Rasulullah s.a.w is Noor and human - as we shall now seek to demonstrate


Allah swt Farmaawey che,

“Undoubtedly, there has come to you from Allah a light and a Book, luminous ”.

(Surah Al-‘Mai’dah’ Verse 15).

IMAM SADIQ a.s write under this verse that the meaning of Noor in this verse is used for our Nabi and Imam

From the above evidence we conclude that it is permissible to call Prophet “Noor” and it is not Kufr or Shirk as some people like anajmi consider it to be.

Yes, there is a difference of opinion amongst the Scholars with regards to what was the first to be created, whether it was water, Arsh, Rooh (noor) of Panjetan a.s, We say that Panjetan a.s was the first creation of Allah Almighty.

ALLAH FARMAAWE CHE

“And O beloved! Remember when We took covenant from the Prophets and from you, and from Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and Isa son of Maryam and We took from them a firm covenant.” (Verse 7 under Surah Al-Ahzab).

From the above verse we are shown that ALLAH took the covenant from His beloved RASULULLAH s.a.w first and then from the other Anbiya’s, even though they came before.

RASULULLAH nu zikar ISAA si pehla hoyi, to RASULULLAH aam insaan hoyi sake?

MAULANA ALI si jibreil jawab lai ne ALLAH ne jawab aapey to MAULANA ALI aam insaan hoyi sake?

You took ram sita and hanuman here who made by fairy tales of rishi muni and sadhu sant shame!!!

After Rasulullah s.a.w
Arwa Bint Abdul Muttalib s.a stated: 'If I weep, then it is for him who was the Noor for all the nations, he was the Messenger of Allah and his name was Ahmad, let me remain in this state of mind'.

Aatiqa Bint Abdul Muttalib s.a stated: 'O my eyes! Weep! For the one who was the selected Noor, who was from the children of Hashim'.

Safiya Bint Abdul Muttalib s.a: stated: 'Upon the one with whom Allah is pleased, the one upon guidance and piety, the one who brought the light of guidance after darkness'.

Rasulullah s.a.w ne aam insaan samajhwa waala logo waastey I have tons of references, if you will give your ridiculous thoughts on wahabiyat, hu pann panjetani chu,

You said read the QURAN with open mind, I am telling you the same thing open your mind and eyes and read the Quran, if you will read the translation of the QURAN from wahabi "HALF FILLED GLASS OF WATER WILL BE HALF EMPTY FOR YOU ALWAYS" go and read the translation of Quran from a mumeen scholar.

you are going to the lanati twisters, je logo ye RASULULLAH ne last time maa kalam kagaz na aapi, ye logo si QURAN sunso to maaru lakhelu ridiculous jowaase.

Panjetan paak ne insaano maa gino cho to tamne ehma noor kem jowaasey, to see noor in 5 of them you have to study on them not only the QURAN.
QURAN comes after them.

Wassalam.

kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#23

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:42 am

Admin, as requested already, please move these last few posts to a separate thread. There is wealth of information in them and it does a great injustice to have them under Ashara Oppression 2015 thread.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:15 pm

Dear Ruqaiyya Ben,

Talking to you is like talking to a broken record. Doesn't matter what you say, the record is going to keep repeating that which it is stuck on without any individual thought. Let us explain in the form of ridicule. May Allah forgive me for doing this but I feel it is necessary to explain the rut you guys are stuck in. Everything I say from here on in italics is completely false.

According to Imam Al Hayy Al Muqaddas Al Jabbarul Makhtum fil Pakhtum wa Khairun Kabir wa Jalaalul Hind wa Noorul Ardh Shake Anajmi

the beginning of surah baqarah talks about 3 letters of the arabic alphabet Alif, Laam and Meem. These letters refer to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. Abu and Alif both begin with Alif and Umar and Uthman both have meem in the middle. The great question is where does Laam fit in. Laam implies the noor of Allah that connects Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman.

When Allah talks about his hands in the Quran he is talking about the Yazid and Muawiyya, as these are the two great hands that did great things with their hands and their hands had noor connected to them. All this has been written by Imam Shake Anajmi and hence is the true fact because Shake Anajmi came before even Yazid and Muawiyya and is from the same noor that lights up all other noors.

Whenever God says in the Quran "Ya Ayyuhal ladhina Aamanu", it is proof that he is referring to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman as they are the noor that is connected to the noor of Allah emanating from the exact same noor that angels and Adam were made but they came before them.

When Umar knocked on Ali's door some of the noor was transferred and the noor of Umar became the noor of Ali and hence Ali became the 4th noor.

Whenever God says in the Quran Al Humd - he is actually doing hamd of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. (Please do maatam after reading this taawil). The reason Allah does hamd is clear in the next ayah where he says referring to them as Rahman and Raheem. Why does he refer to them as Rahman and Raheem? Because they are from the noor of Allah.

There are 114 surahs in the Quran. 114 is fully divisible by 3 which implies that the noor of Allah was divided into 3 parts and each part was given to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. Mind you, 114 cannot be divided by 5!!

Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman came before the Quran and their noor was captured in every third of the Quran.

As is evidenced from the evidence provided by Imam Shake Anajmi (a part of the same noor), we can now conclude that everything stated is completely accurate. This is just a portion of the ilm acquired by Imam Al Hayy Al Muqaddas Al Jabbar wal Furqaan Shake Anajmi. His ilm is captured in the library of dawaat e aaleen wal hujurate kareem ul iqram but is not accessible to all. You have to first believe in the noor and then you can have access to it.


May Allah forgive me for writing the nonsense that I have written above. I advise others like Ruqaiyya Ben to seek Allah's forgiveness for writing their own nonsense and attributing it to the Lord Almighty. Allah refers to himself as Gafoor, one who forgives repeatedly. He is waiting to forgive. One good thing I saw in your last post is that you did not mention "IMAM UZ ZAMAAN" even once. There is still hope for you.


Biradar,

The same applies to you too!!
[Another way to put Allah's question: there are only two reasons you won't prostrate to Adam: First, either you are arrogant and think you are better than Adam (and you think that is sufficient reason to disobey me) or, second, you are exempt from prostration as you belong to those who are self-exalted". Also, Allah, being All-Knowing already knew the answer which Iblis would give, and which category he belonged to.]
The simplest explanation is that the Aaleen are those people who refused to bow down to anyone. Since Iblis refused to bow down. He didn't claim exemption. Hence the similarity in using the same term for pharoah who considered himself to be God and hence didn't need to bow down to anyone. Which would imply that by making Ali from amongst the Aaleen the bohras are doing a great disservice to his character.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#25

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:49 pm

Good one....

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#26

Unread post by fayyaaz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:15 pm

Iblis confirms that he is from aaleen in 38:76. He exalts himself above Adam, ignoring what Allah may have 'up His sleeve'. He says "I am better than him (Adam) because You created me from fire."

Allah's response to Iblis is that he is accursed.

Compare Iblis's behaviour with those who would exalt themselves above others, like "I am from qasre aali, prostrate before me." Maybe they should call themselves "qasre aaleen". :roll:

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#27

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:34 pm

I should mention that many verses of the Quran are very mysterious. Specially the ones which apparently occur in the realm of angels and before the creation of the world. For example, in 7:172 Allah asks the question "Alastu birabbikum" [Am I not your Lord?]. One should reflect to whom is this question addressed? These verses are highly symbolic and veil deep mysteries of creation and hint to the nature of the Panjatan, whose creation and exalted station preceded all other things. They can not be understood by simply looking at the text. Unlike the claims of our resident literalist, it is possible, and in fact true, that the Prophet taught the mysteries to Ali, who revealed them in linguistic form, from the non-linguistic prophetic treasure left in his heart and mind. This process was similar, in some ways, to the revelation of the Qur'anic text in Arabic, from the non-linguistic revelation which descended into the heart of the Prophet all at once on the Night of Power (Q 97:1).
If these mysteries were revealed to Ali, what did he do with them? Didn't he tell you who the question - "Alastu birabbikum" is addressed to? or did he reveal the answer in newer taawil that we still need to reflect upon? What are you guys smoking? The question is answered in that ayah itself. Instead of reflecting on half ayahs, trying reading the whole ayah for once in your life. Maybe you won't have to reflect so much that you start filling in the blanks with fiction.

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#28

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:57 pm

Ruqaiyya, let me let you fill you in about Anajmi. He is dead set against Shias and hates Ali. At one point, he even called Ali a drunk! So, please, for your own sanity, do not argue with him. He is a self-exalted person, arrogant to boot. Fifteen years here have not taught him much. Just put him on on ignore.

Fayyaaz: I do not agree that this verse (38:75) is clear at all. The only verses which are truly clear are the ones which talk about external law. Even those need care in interpretation, as often it is easy to get misled by gender, for example, among other things. In general, verses which refer to time and space, outside the spacetime we (humans in the physical universe) occupy, are by their very nature in need of taweel.

Now, coming to your question about "l-ʿālīna". You are correct that the Panjatan, in the human form they all appeared in the beginning of the era of Muhammad, were exalted by Allah himself, as described in Q 33:33. However, the Divine Reality of these Five preceded their physical manifestation. The signs of their stations, for example, the ascension of the Prophet (Q 17:1), were simply indications of what was already true, even before the creation of Adam. In fact, during the meraaj, the Prophet led all other prophets in prayer, including Adam. Hence, his station is clearly higher than that of Adam. Further, when Kumayl asked Ali about al-ḥaqīqa (Ultimate Reality), Ali responded "What have you and Ultimate Reality to do with each other?". On being pressed further that was not he (Kumail) sharing in Ali's secret, Ali responded, "Yes, indeed. But that which sprinkles on you is billowing through me". (Indicating the taweel Kumail possessed were merely drops of the ocean of taweel which billowed and raged in the person of Ali). On the other hand, Adam had to be taught the various names (Q 2:31), which, on being quizzed by Allah, the angels were unable to name either (Q 2:32).

Finally, a person like yourself should understand, for example, that a word like "King" can be used to describe both a bad king as well as a good king. By itself, "self-exhalted" does not mean something negative. In fact, Allah had already asked Iblis if he belonged to the category of the arrogant (astakbarta). Hence, the second category (l-ʿālīna) can not mean the same, and, in fact, must be the opposite to create a contrast.

In any case, as I have said before. Some men are like goats. They chew on the skin, and discard the fruit. Such is the fate of the literalists, the Wahabbis/Salafi/Takfiris and the Anajimis. They will continue to be a scourge on Earth, causing mayhem and chaos. I mean, we see above that Anajmi is not even beyond making fun of the Qur'anic verses, using them to make a joke! Shame.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#29

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:21 pm

Dear Ruqaiyya Ben,

And let me tell you something about Biradar, he has questioned the existence of Allah himself. He claims that people were ignorant a thousand years back (that would include the famed panjatan) and that today's man is smarter than them and should question the existence of Allah. So for a muslim, it is better to consider (deleted by Admin/Moderator due to sensitivity of believers) rather than question the existence of Allah. One keeps you from becoming an idol worshipper and the other makes you a kafir, a smart kafir, if there were such a thing!!

He is the perfect example of an idw (idol worshipper). He questions the existence of Allah but has absolutely no doubt about the exalted status (deleted by Admin/Moderator due to sensitivity of believers). It is the same thing as the pagans of Mecca. They kept their idols in the kaaba and biradar's biggest idol was supposed to have been born inside the kaaba. A perfect harmony so to say!!

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Ashara Oppression 2015

#30

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:43 pm

were exalted by Allah himself, as described in Q 33:33.
33:33 refers to the prophet (saw) and his wives. Ali and his family are also a part of the ahlul bayt but are not exclusive. Hadith mind you, cannot override the Quran and there is absolutely no indication from the Quran that 33:33 refers to only the panjatan. Please do not make fun of the Quran. And if you do, please seek forgiveness as I have done even though I wasn't making fun of the Quran but the ignorant interpretation of the bohras.
However, the Divine Reality of these Five preceded their physical manifestation.
Further proof of the kufr of biradar. He doubts the existence of Allah but is certain of the "Divine" reality of his 5 idols. His destruction on the day of judgment is certain. Interpretation of any ayah of the Quran by biradar should be immediately discarded.