Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2251

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:59 pm

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:09 pm
anajmi wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:27 pm


That is an idiotic argument. It is like saying that since Abu Jahal remained a kafir then by logic (more specifically, YOUR logic) the prophet (saw) has failed to deliver the message of Islam!!!
Your analogy does not apply at all. Think about it. The argument made is court is about the survival of the message and the messenger whereas your example is about the acceptance of the message.
The fact that there is a dispute about nuss, implies that there is no clear nuss. Which in turn implies, according to Fatimid theology, that the prophet (saw) has failed. That is like saying that since Abu Jahl didn’t convert to Islam the prophet (saw) has failed. Sorry, but I don’t see an issue with the analogy. It is perfect.



Shams
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2252

Unread post by Shams » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:15 pm

Anajmi, I love the incoherence of your circular argument and your ability to stretch metaphors to their very limits. I may not be as well averse with historic references to current events as you are but can definitely see through baloney when I come across it. The dispute is not in the validity and existence of a clear nass but in the claiming and usurping of it.



momeenbhai
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2253

Unread post by momeenbhai » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:05 am

I had respect for khuzaima qutbuddin but when I saw they keep transferring power to their own kids and there is no divinity involve any more I am all good to stick with main stream islam and as a community DB main stream.

it is loud and clear this war is all about money and power.



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 417
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2254

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:17 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:05 am
I had respect for khuzaima qutbuddin but when I saw they keep transferring power to their own kids and there is no divinity involve any more I am all good to stick with main stream islam and as a community DB main stream.

it is loud and clear this war is all about money and power.
just because money and power are involved does not mean that the fight is necessarily about money and power only.

What was a civil person supposed to do? All of us know that SKQ was #2, and that this in-fighting was in plain view, and SKQ said (after SMB wafat) that nass was done on him. Now even those who believe it cannot support in the open for fear of social boycott. What is SKQ supposed to do? Do goonda-giri like the other side? SKQ took the civil approach of going thru the courts.

The court case, in my humble opinion (and many will disagree) has been very useful and revealing. For example, it is the court case, and the court case only, that has forced SMS and team to say: "Nass once done can be changed". We also learnt that SMB was without any significant fluids or solids for 48 hours before he got admitted to the hospital. Why? What were the shahazada and Dr. Moiz doing? Just a wild hypothesis: Were they holding back food and water and asking/forcing SMB to "do a nass" and SMB was resisting? Just purely speculation on my part.

The point is that the court case brings these things out, which never would have come out otherwise. And we can all think, and Inshallah decide what is right. That is the value of the court case in my opinion, apart from the verdict. And Inshallah, when MS BS and his brothers/sister are examined in the court as "witnesses" to the nass, more thought-provoking things can come out.

Btw, I agree with you that the dai only from father-to-son is a transfer of power. But Islam still makes it incumbent on us to decide who is right and who is not, and to support the right. That is what we should do to earn the good pleasure of Allah, for our own akherat. Not just go with the majority/mainstream DB community. Just my humble 2 cents.



momeenbhai
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2255

Unread post by momeenbhai » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:09 am

how do you explain 400 years and Imam is not able to find another man which comes from another family then this one?

I believe in Imam uz zaman and I believe Imam will come in end times for sure and my belief is based on sunni+shia hadiths.



yfm
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2256

Unread post by yfm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:39 pm

My dear pdb bhayos. Please get out of your camouflage and act like man. Izzat (honor) that the Koran teaches and what our forefathers believed does not have the same meaning today since now it is equated with money and power.
If you think that we came from a sperm and an egg in our mother's womb, and yet have the great power of sending man to the moon and mars, then why don't you believe that where we are going to is in the same hands who gave us life.
Don't get caught up in the quest of nass and who is right. These are all impostors. If we do not know where and how we came into being, how can we know where we are going. So forget these phony dais and their lust for our money and their power.

Live your life according to the teachings of the Koran and your creator will take you to your next phase.

Remember if Imam Hussein did not believe in the next life, he would have negotiated wealth and power here on earth.

Let us be progressive dawoody Bpbras, unafraid of nass and waste time with these ok imposter.

Our old dais have been capsized by these imposters who have no fear of Allah.



yfm
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2257

Unread post by yfm » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:33 am

Be unafraid of these dais especially if you are away from India. We have to go back to our roots. Mainstream progressive dawoody bohras and NOT REGRESSIVE PDB who want to use the old shithouse. We don't pray 5 times but want an old shithouse because it will save us from Colon Cancer.



yfm
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2258

Unread post by yfm » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:39 am

We are stuck on dais and the dais making money of us. Yet Israelis and the Jews are working hard to seize their interests. In the process they make us realize how impotent we are. Is this the face we want to go and meet our Allah and our Prophet (SAW).

Shame on us.



Shams
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2259

Unread post by Shams » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:30 am

Bombay High Court Declaratory Suit 13th, 14th & 16th February 2018
Posted on February 18, 2018
The cross-examination of the Plaintiff, Syedna Taher Fakhruddin Saheb (TUS) continued on the 13th, 14th, and 16th of February 2018 in the Hon’ble Bombay High Court.

On 13th February, Senior Counsel Mr. Iqbal Chagla for the Defendant, Shehzada Mufaddal Saifuddin, asked the Plaintiff about a treatise of the 51st Dai which states that Nass should be in the presence of “people” from the Dawat. The Plaintiff responded that the translated word “people” is a general meaning and the Arabic word used in the text is ‘jamaat’. He further said that the Prophet Mohammed SA had himself said that “a single believer is a jamaat.”

In response to a question from Mr. Chagla on whether Nass of succession should be explicit, the Plaintiff responded that conferment of Nass must be by a direct statement or clear indication, as is explained in the Dawoodi Bohra misaaq (oath).

On 14th February, Mr. Chagla asked the Plaintiff whether he accepted that the compilation listing Ismaili treatises on law, doctrine and history, authored by Ismail bin Abdurrasool al-Ujjaini (al-Majdu) was an authoritative compilation. The Plaintiff replied that this compilation should not be regarded as fully authoritative, as the author of this compilation, known in the community as the renegade al-Majdu, revolted against the 40th Dai.

Mr. Chagla sought to ask further questions on al-Majdu’s compilation which the Hon’ble Justice Patel disallowed on the grounds that the Defendant would first have to prove that al-Majdu’s compilation was authoritative in the community.

On 16th February, the Plaintiff produced a video recording of the 52nd Dai Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb RA, in which the 52nd Dai said that “no conceptions of Majdu should be adopted” and that any works authored by al-Majdu should be treated with extreme caution.

Mr. Chagla produced an audio recording of a sermon of the 51st Dai Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb RA in which the Defendant claims that the 51st Dai spoke of a requirement of witnesses to nass. The Plaintiff produced an enhanced (for clarity) version of the same recording and said it is clear that no requirement of witnesses is discussed. In fact, he said, the 51st Dai does not even mention witnesses (“shaahido ne bhi”), rather he mentions writings (“kaaghazo ma bhi”). The Hon’ble Justice Patel noted this crucial difference and stated that it would have to be examined separately.

Mr. Chagla asked the Plaintiff if there were any proofs of the 27th Dai’s rightful succession against the rival claimant Sulayman, other than the fact that he was the Mazoon of the 26th Dai. The Plaintiff replied that the 25th Dai had stated that the Imam appeared in a vision before him in a dream and instructed him to appoint both “the two Daud’s” the 26th and the 27th Dais after him. The Plaintiff also said that when the 26th Dai appointed the 27th Dai as Mansoos, some people objected. The 26th Dai responded to the objectors that in fact it is was his predecessor the 25th Dai who had instructed him (26th Dai) to appoint his successor Syedna Daud bin Qutubshah as the 27th Dai.

The Plaintiff also noted that the 51st Dai in his Risalat states that Sulayman accepted the succession of Syedna Qutubshah (the 27th Dai) by performing Sajda to him, before he rebelled a few years later.

(The Defendant, Shahzada Mufaddal Saifuddin, has prostrated before the Original Plaintiff Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin RA, and video recordings of this have been submitted in evidence.)

The Hon’ble Justice Patel has scheduled the further cross-examination of the Plaintiff on 20th and 21st of March 2018 and if required on the 10th, 11th and 13th April 2018.
Can someone please throw light on the writings of Ismail bin Abdurrasool al-Ujjaini and its relevance to the court case?