The movement is dying

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chocoman
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:37 am

The movement is dying

#1

Unread post by chocoman » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:22 am

The progressive movement is dying...

Biradar
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: The movement is dying

#2

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:10 pm

Your highly insightful post, which is all of five words, probably is a good indication of the "death" of the progressive movement. When all you do is state something but not follow it up with any diagnosis or solutions, truly we are on the last stages of life!

In any case, this topic has been discussed ad nauseam here. The reality of the matter is that the Progressive Moment (with capital P and M) is essentially over. Its aims have not been achieved, and instead, the Kothari Mafia and the gangster family of the da'i has grown more powerful, the common Bohra has grown more fanatical and those wanting change pushed to the sidelines, or even completely out of the community.

Partly, this failure is due to the original nature of the Movement which was based on the ideals inherited from India's freedom struggle. As the early pioneers have become older or died, the ideals which animated them are no longer active and it is difficult (and perhaps pointless) to have leadership in that mold any more.

Compounding this fact is that the da'i and his mafia have a much bigger loudspeaker than the Progressives. The da'i commands tens of thousands of fanatics, is exceedingly rich and politically well connected, and has successfully converted his followers into mindless sheep. This is exactly opposite of what the Progressive Moment hoped to achieve. The reasons for this are many and complex, but partly it is due to the lack of an alternative from the Progressives as well as the inability to turn this into a popular, grass-roots movement that had widespread support from large number of people. Instead, the movement in general only appeals to intellectuals and liberals, who don't really need the movement in the first place. It is like preaching to the choir.

One must admit that in the last few decades the Kothar has essentially taken over all aspects of a Bohra's life. Everything is now controlled and micro-managed to such an extent that it is nearly impossible for an ordinary Bohra, who would like to maintain a relationship with the community, to oppose, even in principle, the Kothar. The price of membership has increased and now is essentially one's soul, but the situation is such that many or most Bohras are ready to make this sacrifice.

An example will suffice: these days the madrassa system has taken a grotesque form, in which classes are held for hours on ends, often several times a week. This means that the children are turning into fanatics as their impressionable minds are being fed non-stop with propaganda that the da'i is infallible and perfect in all respects and doing all sort of (what would appear to us) strange things is not only good, but absolutely required. We see this daily in the wailing and moaning now being produced on demand (but then replaced with gluttonous gorging of delicacies a moment later), the extreme pressure on women to wear rida and only take care of kids and home, the intense financial pressures from this-that-and-the-other scheme to collect funds etc. The list is long and makes depressing reading.

Think of the cases of FGM, in which, it seems, that the Kothari Mafia will eventually prevail due to their nefarious legal maneuvering and limitless financial resources. Hence, we see that Bohras are ready to sacrifice themselves, their children and everything they have, including their souls, to the Iblisi Toli, which demands even more every day.

How can any movement succeed against this infernal furnace of fanaticism? It is not possible, certainly not from within.

At this point, it seems to me that the only solution really is to keep alive the ideals of Progressive Movement via individual action and refusal to participate in any manner whatsoever. For example, I see here that people curse and moan about Muffy but then they go to his majalis! How does this help the cause of progress? How does it help defeat this Infernal Tree that has taken root in our community? In reality, such spineless cretins are the worse of the worse as they are in reality giving material support to the precisely those they oppose!

Hence, the only real possibility at this point seems to be individual action which is taken independent of social consequences. Don't attend events organized by the Kothari Mafia. Don't send your kids to madrassa. Don't fund the Mafia's pharaonic lifestyles. If you don't take a stand you lose the right to complain. It is possible that your stand has no impact on the Mafia's behavior, but that is irrelevant. At least your conscience will be clear: you can control your life and behavior but not other people.

Mkenya
Posts: 392
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

Re: The movement is dying

#3

Unread post by Mkenya » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:39 pm

Biradar, I commend you for your concise and honest post. The heading of this topic: "The Movement Is Dying" should be changed to "The Movement is Brain Dead". Contributors from earlier times have stopped posting as they have realized the futility. To quote you: "the da'i and his mafia have a much bigger loudspeaker than the Progressives", sums it up.

juzer esmail
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: The movement is dying

#4

Unread post by juzer esmail » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:41 pm

Biradar, very well said. Exactly my sentiments. There is one more thing in Madrassa and that's mass recitation of Shahadat. Even in majlis now you can see a group of children collectively reciting Shahadat. This is insane.

Humsafar
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The movement is dying

#5

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:40 pm

It is sad and I have to grudgingly admit that it is true. I agree with Biradar's points for most parts. I think the biggest failure of the Movement was not being able to respond smartly to the mafia clergy's consolidation of the community which they astutely began soon after the Udaipur revolt in 1972. They changed the appearance, lifestyle and mindset of Bohras in a matter of decades. Meanwhile the approach and strategy of the Movement remained static, stuck in the traditional means of agitation such as the seminars and conferences and litigation -- which left out the ordinary Bohras.

I have written at length on this elsewhere on the forum. Don't want to copy/paste, but if it interests you, you can read it here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11386#p177095

The other major issue is: Do Bohras really desire change? If there is no willingness to change there's nothing that you and I can do will make a difference -- no matter how polished and sophisticated the Movement is. As far as I can tell, Bohras have begun to love their slavery. They have forgotten what it is to be free and independent of mind. They have forgotten what it is to have self-dignity. They have forgotten what Islam is and what our Islamic history is. They are the true worshipers of the Golden Calf.

The Bohra mind is completely closed. And this is the major reason whey the reform movement is dying. There's nobody left to be reformed. As individuals, to Biradar's point, we can still have some agency but we know Bohras too well and their su karsu attitude. They will just go with the flow and be part of this mad, shirk-filled circus. The Movement can still continue to challenge the mafia clergy at administrative/legal level and be an irritant on their side, but nothing more. The mafia clergy has outsmarted the reformists and dumbed down Bohras to such an extent that I really see no hope. And I say this with great sadness and a deep sense of despair.

Biradar
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: The movement is dying

#6

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:13 am

Humsafar wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:40 pm

The other major issue is: Do Bohras really desire change? If there is no willingness to change there's nothing that you and I can do will make a difference -- no matter how polished and sophisticated the Movement is. As far as I can tell, Bohras have begun to love their slavery.
Bohras want change, but in the direction opposite to what we would consider proper. For example, Bohras not only love their slavery, but they want to be even more subservient and abject slaves! We see that slowly but surely the cult like mentality, in which the Iblisi Toli controls every aspect of Bohra lives, is getting even stronger.

I mean, they can get a bunch of young kids to lick dirty spoons and plates! How abjectly pathetic and humiliating. But Bohras will do this proudly just because the Iblisi Chief Muffy says that one must do this. They form "danaa" committee to eat food off floor and tables. No self respect or pride, but reduced to an animal-like state, licking and grazing from the floor and dirty plates!

Not to mention the pathetic groveling in front of Muffy or his minions, back bent, butt raised high and hands in front of one's mouth. Bohras stand in long lines and pay big money just so they can humiliate and degrade themselves! They will take their young daughters to be mutilated by back-alley butchers. They will make sure the Iblisi Chief and his gangster family live in luxury while they deny their own children a good life. They will defend the Iblisi Chief even if he murders rare and endangered animals, hosts mass murderer in masjid, eats 10-20 ziyaafats daily and, in general, lives the life of a modern-day Firon.

How can one counter this? No seminar or conference is going to teach them that Islam is an egalitarian religion, where everyone is equal in front of god, and there is no need to humiliate yourself in front of other humans. It is not possible to reform a community which loves its degradation and humiliation. Now this abject slavery has become a part of the Bohra DNA and nothing we do can fix this, at least without a violent schismatic change.

The cause of reform is a lost one. Sad, but one must face the truth, however bitter.

kseeker
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: The movement is dying

#7

Unread post by kseeker » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:16 am

Excellent posts by Biradar and Humsafar - shows vividly how well you understand the issues at hand...
However, I think the bohra reform movement's failure was also partly due to the demands/expectations of some of the bohra reformists..

I have spoken to the middle class bohra, below poverty line bohra, rich bohras, jamea ustaads, some of the "royal" family members who don't take benefits from the kothar or are not part of the kothar ... yes, you do have those who are brain washed - but then there are those who are not.. who see the problem.. even though they give sajdas to the Dai - they see the wrong - but as Humsafar said... their excuse is - what alternative do we have?

Atheists state that the only reason humans still follow religion is because of their need of a sense of security - it is a need so deep that they hold on to an invisible rope (religion or the concept of heaven or hell) to think their life has a purpose more than what they do or what they are - which becomes even stronger when they are not happy with what they are doing/achieving in this life. It is only when they let go of that fear they start to see "Sense".... this does not prove that there is no purpose to life but it does explain why people are brain dead ( not just in bohras but pretty much every religion worldwide)... it is a comfort zone ... im sure most of you must have read the famous quote on comfort zones... " A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there".....

This is what the clergy has done ; given that deep sense of 'meaning' and security - "all you do is pay us and we show you how to get to heaven - nothing can go wrong - just do as you're told - we've got you covered"

I have met a couple of reformists who had the ability to bring change with their financial and social abilities but some of their demands and expectations were not in line with the "Requirements" of faith. They wanted a leader who would be answerable to the public and have everything accounted for. I understand their reason behind it but what they failed to see is that religion is NOT democracy. a student does NOT and SHOULD NOT get to "choose" his teacher or question his way of teaching - if you don't like him, leave him... but if you are with him , you need to show/have faith - which is the foundation of every religion - belief without proof....

And if a consensus on who the leader should be cannot be reached - a board of director system should have been implemented where it is decided what books, literature we believe in to be true, hire people or find volunteers who would study it and then appoint/hire them to conduct classes to teach other people...pretty much a jamea concept - the rest ( jamaat, social events) would have organically developed .

Ozdundee
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: The movement is dying

#8

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:11 pm

Respected reformists,

The point I will raise, the modern day fighters operate outside organised movement or consider the authority of central body to instruct.

Like the people in various iniitiatives who behind the scenes are very effective and have now formed respect from authorities and non government bodies of their sincerity and committment to their cause without vested interest in organisations position, publlicity, are unwavering in their position and will not betray their cause.

The individuals now operate as small contained groups which cleverly pick single issues and go as far as they can. This is very strategic planning, fighting battles, dragging the adversary in issues , where the adversary has no experience create a community discussion bring in non Bohras into the discussion . My criticism and as mentioned years ago I was not a fan of centralised movement , rather a fan of distributed initiatives relevant to the region.

If you see how FGM in Australia, USA and India have matured, were not a movement initiative, but a few nagging individuals who drove the issue relentlessly, and from Sydney exploded exponentially into Detroit and now India. The conversation is on streets of Mumbai between Bohra and non Bohra girls, this is priceless . Whether FGM cases win in court or not that is now no longer the only objective, it's having grass root conversation, progressive women are making decisions, many girls are discretely not going through FGM, no girl will ever be excommunicated or discriminated for or not having FGM done on them. SMS cannot look in the eye of any western health or government official who is not corrupt and avoid a FGM conversation. To me it's that reform very aligned to the original Islamic traditions of empowering the self..

About hunting , a very separate audience was targeted by those pursuing this, I know one of them,, I was surprised that the petition created years ago was recently a media hit. Again a spontaneous initiative and repurposed . There are now young kids teenagers who are struggling with concept their leader is a hunter, wow that brings male kids too to question their choices. So now both girls and boys discuss. Next how do you target youth who are very conscious on corruption issues. They hate scandals, unfair of old men getting rich quickly .

The ongoing investigation in various countries how fraud and corruption, led by dedicated team from another part of the world is making gradual progress, it played part in discouraging visa for Canada. The benefit of these operations are so intense at international level this Bohra findings contributed to awareness of how Islamic charities launder money, such initiatives were input in tightening of visas and policies around the world.

Now on FD approach , they have taken a different direction they have tried to provide an alternative spiritual option. Trying to win hearts and minds. Somehow our strategies did not align, we have professionally stayed out of each others paths. Even though abdes keep thinking FD is behind FGM movement, they are not, om they do comment but that's as far. My swipe is in world that is more agnostic, less religious, then connect on contemporary issues. That's where the future reform opportunities exist.

So I don't think the reforms is dead, as progressive have got power to refuse, moderates are reemerging, excommunication is receding, als dawaat has or is adapting to new world order. In future we will see new eruptions. There are other issues that after FGM will keep the discussion going on both in public very domain.

It is quite clever kothar created the DBWRF to be their instrument, this concept will grow, their argument is its their collective human right is more important than an individua's right even if it means crossing limits of criminal activity. Oh this will really be fun arguing in current world situation.

juzer esmail
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: The movement is dying

#9

Unread post by juzer esmail » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:04 am

Very well said Oz Dundee, and please keep up the good work! Cheers!

system5
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:10 am

Re: The movement is dying

#10

Unread post by system5 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:46 am

I like to add one or two sentence on progressive movement dying, there are hundreds of youth who are fence sitters, they just need a push
or some convincing from our movement on their wavering mind and their dilemma caught between parents obedience and conscience following.

SBM
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The movement is dying

#11

Unread post by SBM » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:19 pm

whether the Progressive movement is dying or not but this forum has provided a huge contribution to the FGM initiative and its spread to other parts of world, Ozdundee who started the initiative on his own accord but was able to spread using this forum.
Only thru this forum, we were able to read about Zahir-Batin chats which was recorded by an inside person,
This forum exposed so many corrupt practices that Kothari Goons stop posting many items on their forum and required an ITS sign in.
Many members may have left or stop posting on this forum for their own reasons or may have lost interest reforming a community which is beyond being reformed but make no mistake that they are active in making sure that Kothari Mafia does not get away with their corrupt practices.
Ever wonder why many Kothari Goons like Qaid Chor and Idress has NOT visiting USA or Canada lately, ever wonder why Muffadalis are NOT posting the pictures of their HUNTING SOJOURNS anymore.
Ever wonder why Kothari Goons are only limited to holding their Ashura Tamasha to India or Mumbasa or may be Sri Lanka???
So yes in ZAHIR, progressive may seem to be dying BUT in BATIN, it is achieving the results as OZ put it "by individuals who may not be part of any Progressive Movement but were inspired by them and this FORUM"

think
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: The movement is dying

#12

Unread post by think » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:36 pm

yes, the hypocrites may not come out in the open but are in support of the progressive movement. and what is the progressive movement; Its main reason is to appeal to common sense and distinguish between right and wrong. The wrong doings of the kothar mafia is fully exposed on this web site and because of it so many many have been re educated not to succumb to the high handedness of the mulla or bhaisaheb but know your rights as a human being and be a human being first before you become an animal of the mafia kothar your so called religious leader.

bohra_manus
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: The movement is dying

#13

Unread post by bohra_manus » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:19 am

SBM wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:19 pm
whether the Progressive movement is dying or not but this forum has provided a huge contribution to the FGM initiative and its spread to other parts of world, Ozdundee who started the initiative on his own accord but was able to spread using this forum.
Only thru this forum, we were able to read about Zahir-Batin chats which was recorded by an inside person,
This forum exposed so many corrupt practices that Kothari Goons stop posting many items on their forum and required an ITS sign in.
Many members may have left or stop posting on this forum for their own reasons or may have lost interest reforming a community which is beyond being reformed but make no mistake that they are active in making sure that Kothari Mafia does not get away with their corrupt practices.
Ever wonder why many Kothari Goons like Qaid Chor and Idress has NOT visiting USA or Canada lately, ever wonder why Muffadalis are NOT posting the pictures of their HUNTING SOJOURNS anymore.
Ever wonder why Kothari Goons are only limited to holding their Ashura Tamasha to India or Mumbasa or may be Sri Lanka???
So yes in ZAHIR, progressive may seem to be dying BUT in BATIN, it is achieving the results as OZ put it "by individuals who may not be part of any Progressive Movement but were inspired by them and this FORUM"
Well Said Bro SBM

Ozdundee
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: The movement is dying

#14

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:58 pm

I would say the traditional movement was suitable in the 1970s and 80s.

Recognising the very wealthy opponent and very influential corrupt cult like behaviour. The fight was not possible on political or freedom basis alone .

There must be exposure of the evil that was going on. These are issues that no modern society would find acceptable, regardless of attempt to mask it as religious freedom.

When SMS publicly told Modi during Muharram , Bohra follow Sayednas instruction. That was gold for the movement. This destroys excuses about autonomy of jamaats. Now there is live evidence he holds accountability for both good and EVIL in the community.

In the 21st century a new method was introduced, taking the fight on moral grounds, legality of the kothars state within the state operations.

The cases will not necessarily be won in 1st attempt, the purpose is force open intellectual conversation amongst the grass roots.

In the past I used to hear Kothar is smart, these global gang of warriors are 5 years ahead, So the movement has now undergone rebirth. Enjoy the roller coaster ride!

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The movement is dying

#15

Unread post by zinger » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:49 am

Read about the death of S. Insaf yesterday. Inna Illahe Wa Illahe Rajeoon.

May he rest in peace and sincere condolences to his family.

Am posting it here only because there is no other thread dedicated to remembering his life and work and death

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The movement is dying

#16

Unread post by zinger » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:50 am

SBM wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:19 pm
whether the Progressive movement is dying or not but this forum has provided a huge contribution to the FGM initiative and its spread to other parts of world, Ozdundee who started the initiative on his own accord but was able to spread using this forum.
Only thru this forum, we were able to read about Zahir-Batin chats which was recorded by an inside person,
This forum exposed so many corrupt practices that Kothari Goons stop posting many items on their forum and required an ITS sign in.
Many members may have left or stop posting on this forum for their own reasons or may have lost interest reforming a community which is beyond being reformed but make no mistake that they are active in making sure that Kothari Mafia does not get away with their corrupt practices.
Ever wonder why many Kothari Goons like Qaid Chor and Idress has NOT visiting USA or Canada lately, ever wonder why Muffadalis are NOT posting the pictures of their HUNTING SOJOURNS anymore.
Ever wonder why Kothari Goons are only limited to holding their Ashura Tamasha to India or Mumbasa or may be Sri Lanka???
So yes in ZAHIR, progressive may seem to be dying BUT in BATIN, it is achieving the results as OZ put it "by individuals who may not be part of any Progressive Movement but were inspired by them and this FORUM"
Agreed and Seconded

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 542
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: The movement is dying

#17

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:11 pm

Heard out Saifuddin Insaf saheb.

Inna lilahi wa inna ilahi wa rajehoon.

https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mum ... 103959.cms

May his soul rest in peace, and may Allah reward him for his efforts for the reform movement.

Ironic that his death is reported here under the thread - "The movement is dying"!

I agree though with OZ and SBM, that this website and the movement contributed. As times change, the nature of the reform movement evolves ... Hopefully change will come sooner than some people think: It is darkest before dawn ?

zinger
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The movement is dying

#18

Unread post by zinger » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:23 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:11 pm
Heard out Saifuddin Insaf saheb.

Inna lilahi wa inna ilahi wa rajehoon.

https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mum ... 103959.cms

May his soul rest in peace, and may Allah reward him for his efforts for the reform movement.

Ironic that his death is reported here under the thread - "The movement is dying"!

I agree though with OZ and SBM, that this website and the movement contributed. As times change, the nature of the reform movement evolves ... Hopefully change will come sooner than some people think: It is darkest before dawn ?
The only reason for posting here was that there was no thread dedicated to news about him and for some reason, i was unable to create one at that point of time. maybe some glitch in my phone/server at that time.

it was not intended, but in hindsight, i feel that it was quite apt that i posted here, given that he was one of the stalwarts of the reform movement, the death of which was being discussed