Looking for some books (scans)

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Open_minded
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:03 am

Looking for some books (scans)

#1

Unread post by Open_minded » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:57 am

I am looking for some books (or scans) related to Ismaili history.

-Kita'b-az-zi'na-Abu Hatim Abdur-Rahman bin Hamdan Ar-Razi
-Taju'l-'aqa'id-Sayedna Ali bin Muhammad bin Al-Walid
-Khazinatu'l-adilla-Unknown Author

Once found authentic and complete, I shall pay the bearer what he asks for.
Kindly PM me.
Thanks.

بما أني مختص بجمع الكتب ,أبحث عن كتب مختصة بتاريخنا

-كتاب الزينة-أبي حاتم أحمد بن حمدان الرازي
-تاج العقائد-سيدنا علي بن محمد بن الوليد
-خزانة الأدلة -مؤلف مجهول

إذا وجدت هذه الكتب صحيحة وكاملة ,سأدفع ثمن هذه الكتب لمالكها المبلغ الذي يطلبه
يرجى التواصل على الخاص
شكرا

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#2

Unread post by S. Insaf » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:39 am

Dear brother Open-minded,
I had requested Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer to look for these books in Santacruz library, his reply is as follows:-
Dear Insaf,
All these books are in Arabic and no translation is available. Does this gentleman know Arabic? I had first two books Kitab al-Zeenah and Taj al-Aqaid but I will have to search for them. Even if I have I cannot lend these books If they can be zeroxed I will see. Is this gentleman in India or abroad?
Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer
Chairman
Institute of Islamic Studies
602 & 603, Silver Star, Behind BEST Bus Depo,
Santacruz (E), Mumbai:- 400 055.
E-mail: csss@mtnl.net.in
Website: http://www.csss-isla.com
Tel. 91-22-26149668, 26102089
Fax: 91-22- 26100712

Shahu
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#3

Unread post by Shahu » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:40 pm

Here is a link to English summary by Ivanow of Tajul Aqaid. I had downloaded pdf file

http://www.archive.org/details/creedoft ... i030791mbp

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#4

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:45 am

Mashallah these are treasures thank you !

If evry Bohri had these books in their personal library we would never be in the current mess !

leila
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:10 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#5

Unread post by leila » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:56 am

ozmujaheed wrote:Mashallah these are treasures thank you !

If evry Bohri had these books in their personal library we would never be in the current mess !

every bohri has quran in house?

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#6

Unread post by profastian » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:13 am

ozmujaheed wrote:Mashallah these are treasures thank you !

If evry Bohri had these books in their personal library we would never be in the current mess !
If people like you can comprehend the gems of the Tajul-aqaaid, then there wouldn't have been any proggies...
Alas you guys are too dim witted.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#7

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:56 pm

I assumed a good proportion of Bohras are intelligent and logical , these books shows the source and reason of the creation of Bohra faith and would explain why we are asked to beleive in such mysterical ideology, its success and failures to win majority acceptance. I was praising it more as an artifact

If only more historical literature could be made avaialable widely without some Amil trying to mis-interprete .

For those mentioning Quran be mindful translations can be twisted to serve agendas too !

Open_minded
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:03 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#8

Unread post by Open_minded » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:15 am

S. Insaf wrote: Does this gentleman know Arabic? I had first two books Kitab al-Zeenah and Taj al-Aqaid but I will have to search for them. Even if I have I cannot lend these books If they can be zeroxed I will see. Is this gentleman in India or abroad?
Yes, the gentleman knows Arabic, and is an Arab national. I would be really glad if you can get me the scans instead of the xerox.
Shahu wrote:Here is a link to English summary by Ivanow of Tajul Aqaid. I had downloaded pdf file

http://www.archive.org/details/creedoft ... i030791mbp
Thanks for the link, but what I am looking for is a complete book (in Arabic) with referenced Quranic verses included, not just a summary.

I am an Anthropologist and I am in researching in this subject. Jonah Blank has done some extensive research with the current doctrine, what I am particularly interested in is the pre-Indian precept of the "Taiyabi" dawah.

SBM
Posts: 6243
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#9

Unread post by SBM » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:29 am

Jonah Blank has done some extensive research with the current doctrine
I do not know if Jonah Blank's research was totally unbiased.Whatever he wrote about current Dai and administration, was orchestrated by Kothari handler like Qaidjohar Bhaisaheb Ezzuddin and Shabbir Bhaisaheb Nuruddin
Here is the quote "Without the cooperation of the dawat, no meaningful research could be conducted in the community"

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#10

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:29 am

Are there anyone in PDB thinking of getting Daim ul Islam translated in English and the other mentioned books.

I do not know for sure but I would guess there would be academics in India who are able to do these projects ? if there is need for support quantify and we can start throwng some cash in the ring for such a worthy cause ?

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#11

Unread post by asif786 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:00 am

ozmujaheed wrote:Are there anyone in PDB thinking of getting Daim ul Islam translated in English and the other mentioned books.

I do not know for sure but I would guess there would be academics in India who are able to do these projects ? if there is need for support quantify and we can start throwng some cash in the ring for such a worthy cause ?
Daim ul Islam is already transalated in English and my friend got it from Mumbai few months back .

Open_minded
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:03 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#12

Unread post by Open_minded » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:30 am

Here is some precious information.

List of books written by ' Taiyyabi' Dai's of Yemen. (First three, I will list others later on.)

1) Zoeb Bin Musa (wrote 2 books)

-Kitaab-un-Naf's-Fi-Ma'refat-il-Jussate
-Risalat-ul-Darj'e fi Ma'refatul Moujudaat

Khattab Bin Hasan Al-Hamdani (Ma'zun of Zoeb bin Musa) (wrote 7 books)

-Muniratul-Basair
-An-Naim
-Risala-Fil-Bayane-Ijazil-Quran
-Kitabun-Nafas
-Gayatul-Mavaid
-Ad-Divan
-Mimiyah

2) Ibrahim Bin Hasan Al-Hamdani (wrote 3 books)

-Al-Ibteda Wa -Al-Inteha
-Risala-tul-Sharifa Fi Ma'anil Latifa
-KanzulWalad (14 Chapters)

3) Hatim Bin Ibrahim Al-Hamdani (A great scholar, wrote 17 books)

-Tambil Gafileen (got it)
-Makhafi-Wa-Al Ma'ashir
-Mafatih-ul-Konooz
-Shamsuz-Zahara
-Tohfat-ul-Kuloob
-Tohfat-ul-Kuloob Fi Tartib-il-Hodud
-Mafati-hun-Na'imat
-Jama-ul-Haqaiq
-Tazkira
-An-Nakad
-Majalis-ul-Azhar
-Al-Ehsaan-Fi-Khalekul-Insaan
-Al-Masalik
-Majales-ul-Hatemiya
-Majalis-ul-Kabeer
-Zahro-Bazril-Haqaiq
-Masabi-ul-Haqaiq

Anyone having any of this manuscript (scanned and in arabic) please PM me.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#13

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:46 am

Bro Asif how can I order if I am based in Australia ?

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#14

Unread post by asif786 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:55 am

ozmujaheed wrote:Bro Asif how can I order if I am based in Australia ?
Bro Oz

I will check with my friend when he returns on next monday , I think Bro S insaf or Admin can advise you on this

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#15

Unread post by asif786 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:11 am

The books are available on UK progressive website .

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.org.uk/Publications.html

kseeker
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#16

Unread post by kseeker » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:38 am

asif786 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:11 am
The books are available on UK progressive website .

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.org.uk/Publications.html
this link does not work..
can anyone please find me an english translation of Daim ul Islam and Tawil ud Daim?
I will be eternally grateful.

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#17

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:03 pm

kseeker wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:38 am
asif786 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:11 am
The books are available on UK progressive website .

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.org.uk/Publications.html
this link does not work..
can anyone please find me an english translation of Daim ul Islam and Tawil ud Daim?
I will be eternally grateful.
You can buy the english translations of Da'a'im al-Islam Vol I and II (by Ismaili Poonawala) from Amazon. There are no complete english translations of Ta'wil al-Da'a'im. The above website has an Hindi translation of the Da'a'im. Go to:

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.org.uk/education

and look there.

kseeker
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#18

Unread post by kseeker » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:15 pm

Biradar wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:03 pm
kseeker wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:38 am


this link does not work..
can anyone please find me an english translation of Daim ul Islam and Tawil ud Daim?
I will be eternally grateful.
You can buy the english translations of Da'a'im al-Islam Vol I and II (by Ismaili Poonawala) from Amazon. There are no complete english translations of Ta'wil al-Da'a'im. The above website has an Hindi translation of the Da'a'im. Go to:

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.org.uk/education

and look there.
Thank you Biradar. I have ordered them last week.. should get a copy soon hopefully...
Have you read any of the Ikhwan us Safa translations? Also, are there any other of Fatimid Books in English which you would recommend?
I am very interested in the theological subjects and ideas...

I have also heard that in India Sheikh Ahmed Ali's recordings of sabaqs are available for sale. Have you heard any of them?

Any insight or references you could share would be highly appreciated

thanks

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#19

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:54 pm

kseeker wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:15 pm
Thank you Biradar. I have ordered them last week.. should get a copy soon hopefully...
Have you read any of the Ikhwan us Safa translations? Also, are there any other of Fatimid Books in English which you would recommend?
I am very interested in the theological subjects and ideas...

I have also heard that in India Sheikh Ahmed Ali's recordings of sabaqs are available for sale. Have you heard any of them?

Any insight or references you could share would be highly appreciated

thanks
There are a lot of books on Fatimid history and philosophy in English. You can fill a small library. The translations of Ikhwan as-safa are very good, however, they are written really for scholars rather than non-specialist readers. However, you can benefit from them also. I would not recommend buying them as they are expensive, but looking to see if your local library can borrow them from some university. Usually, even small libraries have a borrowing program with universities. Or, best of all, you can find a local university which has these.

This is true for most of these books, BTW. Unless you are very rich it is pointless buying these books as they are books of reference and difficult to read. Best to borrow from a library.

One interesting source is to look at bibliographies that have been published in this field. From there you can get a good starting point for further research. The best bibliographies are:

- "Ismaili Literature: A Bibliography of Sources and Studies", by Farhad Daftary.
- "Biobibliography of Ismāʻīlī literature", Ismail Poonawala.

I prefer the latter as it is really very detailed, but is now old and dated. However, Poonawala is making an updated edition which will add a lot of things discovered since his original work was published. There is also a bibliography by Vladmir Ivanow, which is even more dated now but still valuable. Ivanov often gives large excerpts from various books and even translates them so his books can be useful.

Below is a small list, not comprehensive but you can get a good sense of things if you read a couple.

- "The Ismailis" by Farhad Daftary. There is a PDF copy floating around on the web, and I can give you a link if you can't find it. The first half of the book is on the history of the Ismailis till the end of the Fatmid era. The second half is the Nizari history, so perhaps of less interest.

- "The Empire of the Mahdi. The Rise of the Fatimids", Heinz Halm. This is an excellent book, and is written like a novel and one can feel the adventure and excitement leading to the manifestation of the Imam.

- "The Advent of the Fatimids", Translated by Madelung and Paul Walker. It is a first-hand account of a conversation between a scholar and a da'i central to the efforts of the Imam to control North Africa.

- "Towards a Mediterranean Empire", translated by Shainool Jiwa. This is on the reign of Moiz Imam.

- "The Founder of Cairo", translated by Shainool Jiwa. On Imam Moiz.

- "Founding the Fatmid State", translated by Hamid Haji. Translation of Qadi Numan's Iftita al-Dawah.

- "Inside the Immaculate Portal", a biography and collection of letters of Ustad Jawdhar (Juzer), translated by Hamid Haji. This is a most interesting book as it gives first-hand description of intimate details of what happened in the Imam's household. It is actually very relevant to today's situation as one learns that shezadas used to behave in a despicable manner even during the time of Imams. The Imam in many places uses many choice words to describe his own kin. They apply to most of the shezadas today also.

- Couple of books on Moayyad Shirazi by Mohamad Adra and Bazat Tahera Qutbuddin.

Amongst philosophical, theological books there are many also, but they are very hard to follow for those without needed preparation. For example, "The Wellsprings of Wisdom" is a book by Yaqub al Sijistani, translated by Paul Walker. It is not easy reading. There are also translations of individual smaller treatises by, for example, Hamid al-din Kirmani. These are very difficult to follow, perhaps almost incomprehensible to most folks. Again, the background needed to understand philosophical works is deep and would need significant study.

Incidentally, often people wrote in a very oblique manner, hiding their real meaning behind layers of allegory and quaint expressions which need someone knowledgeable to decipher. It not surprising that self-study is hard and one really does need a "sabaak" like environment (i.e. teacher student direct interaction) to understand these things properly.

There are also a huge number of papers in various journals on various aspects of history and philosophy. These may be hard to find and unless you are a researcher, pointless.

Incidentally, one can't read even the translation of Ikhwan as-Safa from cover to cover. First, the modern mind is no longer used to the type of reasoning the ancients used. Second, the Ikhwan mix a lot of math and geometry with philosophical speculation which one may find very odd. The books on logic are mainly from Aristotle and unless one is familiar with his works, not easy to understand. The last few books on magic and the summary (and summary of summary) are very difficult to understand.

As to the recordings of Ahmed Ali Raj. They are available online on thebohras.com. No need to buy anything. Unfortunately, I would be very careful about believing anything he says. Ahmed Ali Raj was hostile to the main-stream bohras and was rather a fanatic himself. The Progressives managed to contain him somewhat but his chelas create havoc when they can. They are not unlike the mad mullahs in the Kothar. Perhaps crazier, as they have been isolated.

Another resource is to look at various poems by prominent folks. For example, STS and Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb. They contain a lot of theological material. However, again, the language is difficult due to the medieval and flowery mode of Gujrati mixed with Arabic and Persian used in them, and the script is hard to read. Many words may not be comprehensible to an average reader.

Overall, people should make an effort to understand Ismaili and Tayebbi literature. However, it is not easy and not everyone has the time or the intellectual abilities to undertake this journey.

kseeker
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Looking for some books (scans)

#20

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:45 am

Biradar wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:54 pm
kseeker wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:15 pm
Thank you Biradar. I have ordered them last week.. should get a copy soon hopefully...
Have you read any of the Ikhwan us Safa translations? Also, are there any other of Fatimid Books in English which you would recommend?
I am very interested in the theological subjects and ideas...

I have also heard that in India Sheikh Ahmed Ali's recordings of sabaqs are available for sale. Have you heard any of them?

Any insight or references you could share would be highly appreciated

thanks
There are a lot of books on Fatimid history and philosophy in English. You can fill a small library. The translations of Ikhwan as-safa are very good, however, they are written really for scholars rather than non-specialist readers. However, you can benefit from them also. I would not recommend buying them as they are expensive, but looking to see if your local library can borrow them from some university. Usually, even small libraries have a borrowing program with universities. Or, best of all, you can find a local university which has these.

This is true for most of these books, BTW. Unless you are very rich it is pointless buying these books as they are books of reference and difficult to read. Best to borrow from a library.

One interesting source is to look at bibliographies that have been published in this field. From there you can get a good starting point for further research. The best bibliographies are:

- "Ismaili Literature: A Bibliography of Sources and Studies", by Farhad Daftary.
- "Biobibliography of Ismāʻīlī literature", Ismail Poonawala.

I prefer the latter as it is really very detailed, but is now old and dated. However, Poonawala is making an updated edition which will add a lot of things discovered since his original work was published. There is also a bibliography by Vladmir Ivanow, which is even more dated now but still valuable. Ivanov often gives large excerpts from various books and even translates them so his books can be useful.

Below is a small list, not comprehensive but you can get a good sense of things if you read a couple.

- "The Ismailis" by Farhad Daftary. There is a PDF copy floating around on the web, and I can give you a link if you can't find it. The first half of the book is on the history of the Ismailis till the end of the Fatmid era. The second half is the Nizari history, so perhaps of less interest.

- "The Empire of the Mahdi. The Rise of the Fatimids", Heinz Halm. This is an excellent book, and is written like a novel and one can feel the adventure and excitement leading to the manifestation of the Imam.

- "The Advent of the Fatimids", Translated by Madelung and Paul Walker. It is a first-hand account of a conversation between a scholar and a da'i central to the efforts of the Imam to control North Africa.

- "Towards a Mediterranean Empire", translated by Shainool Jiwa. This is on the reign of Moiz Imam.

- "The Founder of Cairo", translated by Shainool Jiwa. On Imam Moiz.

- "Founding the Fatmid State", translated by Hamid Haji. Translation of Qadi Numan's Iftita al-Dawah.

- "Inside the Immaculate Portal", a biography and collection of letters of Ustad Jawdhar (Juzer), translated by Hamid Haji. This is a most interesting book as it gives first-hand description of intimate details of what happened in the Imam's household. It is actually very relevant to today's situation as one learns that shezadas used to behave in a despicable manner even during the time of Imams. The Imam in many places uses many choice words to describe his own kin. They apply to most of the shezadas today also.

- Couple of books on Moayyad Shirazi by Mohamad Adra and Bazat Tahera Qutbuddin.

Amongst philosophical, theological books there are many also, but they are very hard to follow for those without needed preparation. For example, "The Wellsprings of Wisdom" is a book by Yaqub al Sijistani, translated by Paul Walker. It is not easy reading. There are also translations of individual smaller treatises by, for example, Hamid al-din Kirmani. These are very difficult to follow, perhaps almost incomprehensible to most folks. Again, the background needed to understand philosophical works is deep and would need significant study.

Incidentally, often people wrote in a very oblique manner, hiding their real meaning behind layers of allegory and quaint expressions which need someone knowledgeable to decipher. It not surprising that self-study is hard and one really does need a "sabaak" like environment (i.e. teacher student direct interaction) to understand these things properly.

There are also a huge number of papers in various journals on various aspects of history and philosophy. These may be hard to find and unless you are a researcher, pointless.

Incidentally, one can't read even the translation of Ikhwan as-Safa from cover to cover. First, the modern mind is no longer used to the type of reasoning the ancients used. Second, the Ikhwan mix a lot of math and geometry with philosophical speculation which one may find very odd. The books on logic are mainly from Aristotle and unless one is familiar with his works, not easy to understand. The last few books on magic and the summary (and summary of summary) are very difficult to understand.

As to the recordings of Ahmed Ali Raj. They are available online on thebohras.com. No need to buy anything. Unfortunately, I would be very careful about believing anything he says. Ahmed Ali Raj was hostile to the main-stream bohras and was rather a fanatic himself. The Progressives managed to contain him somewhat but his chelas create havoc when they can. They are not unlike the mad mullahs in the Kothar. Perhaps crazier, as they have been isolated.

Another resource is to look at various poems by prominent folks. For example, STS and Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb. They contain a lot of theological material. However, again, the language is difficult due to the medieval and flowery mode of Gujrati mixed with Arabic and Persian used in them, and the script is hard to read. Many words may not be comprehensible to an average reader.

Overall, people should make an effort to understand Ismaili and Tayebbi literature. However, it is not easy and not everyone has the time or the intellectual abilities to undertake this journey.
thank you so much for the detailed reply.. i will happily go through the list you have mentioned..
i intend to buy and keep the Daim and try to barter or get a library to arrange the rest for me...

also, i completely understand your point of having a base understanding of certain elements before jumping into the complex stuff... but i would rather try than not...

when you say Ahmed Ali's chelas created havoc, what exactly do you mean by that and in what way was he a fanatic?

thanks