Question for Bohra clergy

[Ismailite]

Salaam,

I have a question regarding Ismaili/Bohra theology and religious history. I have undertaken a large study of Ismailism. I have researched the concepts of Natiq, Asas, Imam, Bab, Hujjah, Dai, etc.

Recently, I have come across the figure of
Imam-i-Muqim. This is the Imam responsible for giving spiritual teachings to each Rasul-i-Natiq of a period.

What is the Bohra viewpoint on this? Can you provide me with names and evidence of the Imam E Muqims for previous eras (ie: Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus)?

[porus]

The esoteric hierarchy of Natiq, Imam, hujjat, dai etc can be traced back to the writings of the Fatimid dai Hamidu-din Kirmani. I believe that Bohras accept the hierarchy, which is based on neo-platonic ideas of emanation renamed aql by the fatimids.

Imam Muqim means the same as Imamuz Zamaan, who must exist to properly interpret the divine will.

As to who the Muqim was during the ages of the earlier prophets, I believe that Bohras will say it was always Ali. For appearances, it may be different individuals. I do not know who they were.

The idea is suspiciously like the hindu concept of avataar. So, all Imams at whatever period are incarnations (avataars) of Ali.

However, it appears that only during the final prophetic period of Muhammad was the actual Imam, who is a repository of knowledge, zahir and batin, revealed.

This view is shared between bohras and ismailies except that imams are different.

Nonsense, of course. All made up to obfuscate issues with complex erudition which has absolutely no value to anyone except silly intellectual amusement

[simon]

Imam Muqim as referred by Ismailite is the Mustaqar Imam.
Prophet Abraham was the mustaqar Imam. His son, Ismail was Mustaqar Imam whereas Isaac was the mustawda Imam.
During Prophet Isaah(Jesus's time) the mustaqar Imam was Khuzaima. I do not recollect the name of the mustaqar Imam during the time of Prophet Musa.

Porus is wrong when he describes Imams as avatars of Ali and "I believe that Bohras will say it was always Ali". The lineage of Mustaqar Imam is always from father to son, except in the case of Imam Hasan and Husain.
Yes, a lot of people have debunked the book 'Rahat-ul-aql'. When these books were seized by the ultra orthodox Sunni ulemas, they similarly debunked it and said this book is not Rahat-ul-aql but Rah-ul-aql.

[porus]

If the Imams were ordinary mortals, they would need to be tutored in esoteric and exoteric knowledge for many years before they can claim to be able to interpret divine will.

In the succession of the Imamat, this is obviously not the case. Why? Because Imam can be a young man in his twenties as in the case of the Aga Khan or a 2 year old infant as in the case of Imam al-Tayyib.

The idea is that Imamat passes from person to person just as the aql-awwal emanated its successors aql-thani and so on. The successor does not need instruction. He is "inspired" by divine intervention.

The idea has no merit except that fatimids and their successors have developed this philosophy about Imamat being in the progeny of Ali. Emanations could deposit itself into anybody not just the son.

The reason why it must be progeny is more to do with perpetuating a dynasty than any philosphical merit. It is Islam against neo-platonism metamorphosed into philosophy based on Arab tribal structure with family loyalties, rather than loyalty to religious abstractions, being its primary basis and driving force.

[porus]

There is only one Imam and he is always both mustaqar and muqim. Imam is never mustawda. Only a person can be mustawda in Imam's ceremonial position while Imam is elsewhere.

Some philological analysis:

muqim - standing firm
mustaqar (from root qarara) - established
mustawda (from root wada'aa) - temporarily deposited.

[Ismailite]

Is the Mustaqarr Imam the same thing as Wasi?
ie: Ismail was Wasi of Abraham and also Mustaqarr Imam

Regarding Imam-i Muqim, I have read that it was the Imam who trained the Natiq with spiritual teachings. ie: For Prophet Muhammad, it was Abu Talib who taught him the esoteric mysteries of Islam.

"The lineage of Mustaqar Imam is always from father to son, except in the case of Imam Hasan and Husain."

If in Abraham's case, Ismail was Mustaqarr and Isaac was Mustawda, would it not make sense that Husayn was Mustaqarr and Hasan was Mustawda, since Imamat continued in Husayn's descendants? This is the view of the Nizari Ismailies.

[simon]

"If in Abraham's case, Ismail was Mustaqarr and Isaac was Mustawda, would it not make sense that Husayn was Mustaqarr and Hasan was Mustawda, since Imamat continued in Husayn's descendants? This is the view of the Nizari Ismailies. "

That is not the belief of Dawoodi Bohras.

Also a wasi can be a mustaqar Imam but that is not the rule. Haarun was the wasi of Prophet Moses but was not the mustaqar Imam. Also Khuzaima was the mustaqar Imam in Isa's time but was not his wasi.

[Ismailite]

Ok, so if Aaron was not a Mustaqarr Imam, but was the Wasi, then would any of his descendants be Imams who lead the community in the future?

Which authority is higher? Mustaqarr Imam or Wasi?

[simon]

Please pardon my mistake. Aaron was not the wasi of Moses, I do not recall his name. Jesus's wasi was Sham'un though.
The position of Mustaqar Imam is higher than wasi.

[porus]

Originally posted by Ismailite:
Is the Mustaqarr Imam the same thing as Wasi?

Imam must be mustaqar, else he is not Imam. So the word mustaqar is really redundant in the phrase "Mustaqar Imam". Wasi, as applied to Ali, is higher than Imam because Ali is the foundation (asas) of Imamat. Imamat, as understood today, was only revealed in the final period of prophethood which ended with Muhammad. Any reference to Imam before Ali, as in the case of Ibrahim in Quran, cannot refer to Imam as understood by Bohras today.

So, the foundation of Imamat as laid down in the heavens was always with Ali but made manifest with historical Ali. Ali is not Imam but asas of Imamat and hence the belief that Imam is always Ali. The first historical Imam on earth was Hasan, not Ali.

Originally posted by Ismailite:
Regarding Imam-i Muqim, I have read that it was the Imam who trained the Natiq with spiritual teachings. ie: For Prophet Muhammad, it was Abu Talib who taught him the esoteric mysteries of Islam.

This is an example of Aga Khani revisionist history, trying to identify historical people with roles which were actually enacted in heavens, the so-called aalam-i-ibda. Muhammad's education was direct from Allah. It was his responsibility to initiate the earthly Imammat by identifying Ali as its asas.

Originally posted by Ismailite:
If in Abraham's case, Ismail was Mustaqarr and Isaac was Mustawda, would it not make sense that Husayn was Mustaqarr and Hasan was Mustawda, since Imamat continued in Husayn's descendants? This is the view of the Nizari Ismailies.

Wouldn't that be nice for the Aga Khani revisionist history! Unfortunately, history does not bear this out. As I explained earlier, when Imam, who is always mustaqar, has to be elsewhere, someone is appointed in his place for ceremonial duties. He is then Mustawda, or a temporary stand-in for Imam.

In the case Hasan and Husain, both were present and together at all times when Ali was assasinated. Hasan was nominated Imam by Ali. Hasan, in turn, nominated Husayn. No need for mustawda there. In this connection, Muhammad's inclusion of both Hasan and Husayn in muhabila testifies Hasan's place in Imamat. He is the first Imam.

The most important example of a mustawda in Ismaili history is that of Musa Kadhim, who was a stand in for Ismail. This is according to a very messy account of a split between ismailies and twelvers.

[qiyam]

I think there is a little confusion in historical reference and the concept of Imamat.

Imam is the leader of the ummah. The Imam can be Natiq, Asas (Wasi), or Imam. The former are higher positions for the Imam.

Musa Nabi was Imam and most important the Natiq. Harun (Aaron) was the Imam after Musa, but more important was the he was Wasi of Musa.

Just as Yahya was the wasi of Isa (the natiq).

Porus wrote "So, the foundation of Imamat as laid down in the heavens was always with Ali but made manifest with historical Ali. Ali is not Imam but asas of Imamat and hence the belief that Imam is always Ali. The first historical Imam on earth was Hasan, not Ali."

--this is a belief perpetuated by the Ismaili..not bohras or other shiah. The first historical Imam on earth was Adam not Ali.

[porus]

Qiyam,

I am making distinction between Quranic Imam and Imams as in Ithna-ashari and Ismaili concepts of Imam.

Quranic Imam is the leader of his nation as promised in the Quran to Ibrahim. This concept was extended to leadership of ummah upto the reign of Imam Jaafar as-Saadiq.

Imam as currently understood is derived from neo-platonic Fatimid philosophy. Imam is identified with Third Aql. It is in this sense that Adam is the first Imam. But the foundation remains at First Aql and Ali is identified with it. These roles were enacted in heavens leading to fall of Adam as tenth Aql, just a man, no longer an Imam.

While Fatimids and current Bohra/Ismailies make questionable attempt to re-interpret the Quran in neoplatonic terms, the fact remains that the concept of Imam has undergone drastic revision from the Quranic "leader of ummah" to a divine personality with with godly powers of omniscience etc.

Luckily for Itana-asharis and Bohras, Imam is in hiding and is in no danger of being called upon to prove his divinity. Attempt of Ismailies, on the other hand, to attribute divinity to Aga Khan seem to be patently ridiculous.

[qiyam]

Porus,
I am not sure on what your analysis is based on?!

Firstly, to say Fatimid Islamic philosphy is a copy of Plato is very far fetched. Plato didn't believe in God nor a Creator. He theories actually lends to a fictionous evolution. It is only based on ideas that there is a creator and action of creator. The philosphy of Ismailis has been parallelled by orientalist to Platonic ideas...but it is totally wrong to say that they are based on them. The ideas were there long before the promotion of Platos ideas.

The Quranic Imam is the leader of a nation. Every Imam is the leader of their respective nation. The Imam, based on the Quran, was firstly a divine guide...then a social/political leader. This could be said for every Imam since the time of Adam. The Prophet Muhammad was the Imam of his nation as a divine guide first..then as a social/political leader after.

This is where Imam Hasan position is clarified. He totally fulfilling the position of the Imam...those he turned away from the political kalipha.

[Ismailite]

OK, let me see if i can piece this all together...

according to Simon:

Wasi is NOT the same as Mustaqarr Imam.
Mustaqarr is permanent Imam and goes by genealogy.
Aaron was NOT the Wasi of Moses, but Simon Peter was the Wasi of Jesus.

My question to you: If Aaron was NOT the Wasi, then why the comparisons between Ali and Aaron made by Muhammad?

according to Qiyam:

Imam means leader of the Ummah, and there are varying levels of Imamat - Natiq, Asas, and Imam.

Also, he says Aaron was the Wasi of Moses, and John the Baptist was the Wasi of Jesus (and not Simon Peter).

My question to you: John the Baptist died before Jesus, so how could he be an effective Wasi? In fact, was it not John who baptised Jesus? Where does this leave Simon?

Porus point of view:

He is skeptical of this whole religious "revisionist" history. Yes, it does take a lot of faith to accept all of these theories.

question to you: In your opinion, has there been any continuity of Divine Guidance between Prophet Muhammad and today?

The Nizari Ismaili point of view:

(by the way, I am a Nizari Ismaili, but i am interested in all points of view):

In Nizari Ismailism, there is a distinction between Imamat and Prophethood. Priority seems to be given to the Imamat.

There are the 3 types of Prophets:

Nabi - minor prophet, ie: Isaiah
Rasul - messenger prophet ie: Joshua
Natiq - speaking prophet (highest one), delivers a new sharia, ie: Moses

There are 4 types of Imams:

Imam-i Mustawda - trustee Imam ie: Hasan
Imam-i Asas - helper of the Natiq ie: Ali
Imam-i Mustaqarr - permanent Imam ie:Husayn
Imam-i Muqim (highest one) - resurrector Imam, can also be teacher of the Natiq ie: Abu Talib

In Nizari Ismailism, there is no set theology like the Bohras or Ithna Asharies. So, what i have stated above is up to individual interpretation. Some Nizari Ismailies trace Imamat back into the periods of the Hindu Avataras and state that they were indeed manifestations of the same Light of Ali.

Everyone feel free to comment on any of this.

[qiyam]

Dear Ismailite:

you wrote the following:

"Imam means leader of the Ummah, and there are varying levels of Imamat - Natiq, Asas, and Imam.

Also, he says Aaron was the Wasi of Moses, and John the Baptist was the Wasi of Jesus (and not Simon Peter).

My question to you: John the Baptist died before Jesus, so how could he be an effective Wasi? In fact, was it not John who baptised Jesus? Where does this leave Simon?"

---I would beg you to do some historical research. John the baptist was beheaded after Jesus was already reportly crucified (about 3 years)...thus the book of John. John was born 6 month before Jesus and was his maternal cousin. John was the first to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah. Baptism is an act of purification (like wudhu) and so John washed his master Jesus.

You further wrote:

"In Nizari Ismailism, there is a distinction between Imamat and Prophethood. Priority seems to be given to the Imamat. "

---I am glad you clarified this as NIZARI thought.

There are the 3 types of Prophets:

Nabi - minor prophet, ie: Isaiah
Rasul - messenger prophet ie: Joshua
Natiq - speaking prophet (highest one), delivers a new sharia, ie: Moses

---Unfortunately...no Ismaili texts supports your classification system. Nabi means prophet. You cannot be a Rasul and NOT a nabi. Joshua was not a Rasul but a Nabi.

There are 4 types of Imams:

Imam-i Mustawda - trustee Imam ie: Hasan
Imam-i Asas - helper of the Natiq ie: Ali
Imam-i Mustaqarr - permanent Imam ie:Husayn
Imam-i Muqim (highest one) - resurrector Imam, can also be teacher of the Natiq ie: Abu Talib

---Again no Ismaili texts supports this. I should remind you that up until 180-200 years ago..Maulana Hasan was listed as an Imam before Imam Husayn.

[Ismailite]

Well, Qiyam, Nizari Ismailism underwent a reformation during the later Alamut times, this reformation included the view of religous history also. Also remember that many Nizari texts have been destroyed, but this information is contained in Kalam e Pir, and in teachings by Nizari Imams.

Rregarding Joshua as being rasul, my mistake, but the point is, the Natiqs were followed up by other minor prophets-nabi, like Moses was followed up by Joshua. Another example was Abraham was followed by Isaac. Noah followed by Hud. etc. The chain of Imamat is separate from that of prophethood, and the offices are distinct, in my humble opinion.

Al Muayyad made this clear when he differentiated between Nubuwwa (Prophethood) and Imama (Imamate). The position of Nubuwwa or Risala, he said, is the office of Trustees (istida), while that of the Imama is the office of Permanence (istiqrar).

- M. K. Husayn (ed)., Diwan al-Mu'ayyad, p.80, quoting from al-Mu'ayyadiyya, vol. 1, p.68.

Regarding John the Baptist, he was Jesus' precursor, and died during Jesus lifetime.

Mathew 14:

3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.
5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.
6 But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.
7 Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask.
8 And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.
9 And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her.
10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.
11 And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother.
12 And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus.

As you can see, Jesus' disciples buried John's body. So, if John came before Jesus, and died before Jesus, how could he be his Wasi? Simon Peter or James the brother of Jesus seem more likely to have been the Wasi's.

plz quote an ismaili text that shows John being the Wasi.

regarding the types of prophets, each rank is inclusive of the ones below it. ie: to be a rasul, you must be nabi, to be natiq, you must be rasul and nabi.

[simon]

Qiyam, I have heard that Sham'un ( which translates to Simon) was the wasi of Jesus. I do not remember reading it anywhere but I am quite certain. Could you please confirm this.

[Muslim]

A Twelver source, Mawaddatu'l-Qurba by Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani Shafi'i quotes a hadith:

"Verily Allah has Appointed a vicegerent for every prophet: Seth, vicegerent of Adam; Joshua, vicegerent of Moses; Simon Peter vicegerent of Christ; and Ali, my vicegerent; and my vicegerent is superior to all vicegerents. I call the people to truth and Ali illuminates it."

Jesus is said to have called Simon "the Rock" (Peter / petros in Greek) upon which the Church will be built, which appears to have similarity to the concept of Ali being the foundation/asas of the Imamate.

[qiyam]

Dear Ismailite,

Also remember that many Nizari texts have been destroyed, but this information is contained in Kalam e Pir, and in teachings by Nizari Imams.

--Up until about 180 years ago, the Nizari Imams included Imam Hasan as an Imam.

Rregarding Joshua as being rasul, my mistake, but the point is, the Natiqs were followed up by other minor prophets-nabi, like Moses was followed up by Joshua. Another example was Abraham was followed by Isaac. Noah followed by Hud. etc. The chain of Imamat is separate from that of prophethood, and the offices are distinct, in my humble opinion.

--I must clarify one thing from my statement...I do not deny the position of Imam Mustaqar and Mustawda...it is the nizari use of the term that I argue. Now, the positions of nabi and imam are distinct only to a certain degree. The nabi is an Imam, be it mustaqar or mustawda. The rasul is the natiq (speaking prophet) and so must be the prophet of the time and the imam mustaqar.

Al Muayyad made this clear when he differentiated between Nubuwwa (Prophethood) and Imama (Imamate). The position of Nubuwwa or Risala, he said, is the office of Trustees (istida), while that of the Imama is the office of Permanence (istiqrar).

--I fail to believe this analysis, since none of the other writings that I have read by the Sayedna has define the Imam in such fashion. The positions of Nubuwa and Risala can only be claimed by the Imam at that time and are given by Allah. Therefore the three positions are interconnected. I believe the statement was misinterpreted.

As you can see, Jesus' disciples buried John's body. So, if John came before Jesus, and died before Jesus, how could he be his Wasi?

--I must apologize...it is my mistake. After further research I mistook the position of Simon (Shamun the wasi) for John (Yahya the Imam Mustawda during the life of Jesus/Isa).

[qiyam]

I do have one question:

Many have quoted Joshua being the wasi of Musa...while hadith refer to Ali being the position of Harun as Muhammad was to Musa.

Prophet replied to Ali: "By the Almighty (who has appointed me to guide the people) I postponed the question of your brotherhood for the reason that I desired to become your brother when brotherhood among all others had been completed. Your position vis-a-vis myself is similar to that of Harun and Musa, except that there will be-no Prophet after me. You are my brother and my successor.

This lends definitively to the concept that Harun was the wasi of Musa as Ali was the wasi of Muhammad.

[simon]

Qiyam, during the waaz for Shahadat-e-Fatema , Aqa maula did mention the wasi's of different Prophets. For Musa, I think he mentioned Yushai which is the Arabic name for Joshua.
Also Aaron was a nabi. "And mention Moses in the Book; surely he was one purified, and he was an apostle, a prophet. And We called to him from the blessed side of the mountain, and We made him draw nigh, holding communion (with us). And We gave to him out of Our Mercy his brother, Aaron, a prophet." (19:51-53)

[qiyam]

Dear Simon,
Thank you for the info. If you look at the old testament, it also says the mantle of leadership was passed to Joshua. I felt that both these bits of info lead to conflicting ideas. Many of the shiah texts refer to Joshua as the wasi of Musa...such as Bihar Anwar.

[jinx]

Prophet Moses(Musa) had 2 wasi. His first wasi was his brother Aaron(Haroon) and after his demise it was Joshua.
Prophet Jesus(Isa Al Masih) wasi was Simon Peter(Shamon)

[jinx]

Originally posted by Ismailite:
OK, let me see if i can piece this all together...

My question to you: If Aaron was NOT the Wasi, then why the comparisons between Ali and Aaron made by Muhammad?

according to Qiyam:

Also, he says Aaron was the Wasi of Moses, and John the Baptist was the Wasi of Jesus (and not Simon Peter).

My question to you: John the Baptist died before Jesus, so how could he be an effective Wasi? In fact, was it not John who baptised Jesus? Where does this leave Simon?

There are 2 mistake here

1) Prophet Haroon(Aaron) was Musa(Moses) wasi. The comparison that Prophet made with Moula Ali was correct and perfect. Prophet said "Ali is to me what Haroon was to Musa but there is no Prophet after me"
- Ali was Prophet wasi, his brother, who supports him with his mission and his tongue.

But after the demise of Aaron, the next wasi of Musa was Joshue

2) Secondly, John the Baptist was not wasi for Prophet Jesus. It was Simon. John (the Baptist) was Jesus First Cousin.

[jinx]

Originally posted by Ismailite:
In Nizari Ismailism, there is a distinction between Imamat and Prophethood. Priority seems to be given to the Imamat.

There are the 3 types of Prophets:

Nabi - minor prophet, ie: Isaiah
Rasul - messenger prophet ie: Joshua
Natiq - speaking prophet (highest one), delivers a new sharia, ie: Moses

There are 4 types of Imams:

Imam-i Mustawda - trustee Imam ie: Hasan
Imam-i Asas - helper of the Natiq ie: Ali
Imam-i Mustaqarr - permanent Imam ie:Husayn
Imam-i Muqim (highest one) - resurrector Imam, can also be teacher of the Natiq ie: Abu Talib

Everyone feel free to comment on any of this.

I think there are 4 types of Prophet and there are certain criteria that differentiate these Prophet. I don’t remember all the criteria

1) First type of Prophet are : ??
2) Second type of Prophet : Prophet Lut (lot)
3) Third type of Prophet : Prophet Yunus(Jonah)
4) Fourth type of prophet : Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, Muhammad

4th type of Prophet are also Imam.

As for the Imam, I don’t really understand how you differentiate them. I am with Porus on this. The separation on Imams is a newly acquired doctrine by Fatimids from Greek theology. Its fake

[serendipity]

Re: the remarks of Jinx
1) Prophet Haroon(Aaron) was Musa(Moses) wasi. The comparison that Prophet made with Moula Ali was correct and perfect. Prophet said "Ali is to me what Haroon was to Musa but there is no Prophet after me."
- Ali was Prophet's wasi, his brother, who supports him with his mission and his tongue.

But after the demise of Aaron, the next wasi of Musa was Joshua.

2) Secondly, John the Baptist was not wasi for Prophet Jesus. It was Simon. John (the Baptist) was Jesus First Cousin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In light of the above, we should perhaps acknowledge here that NEITHER John the Baptist who christian gospels say was beheaded by Herod before Isa's supposed crucifixion, nor the Vatican's official "heir" to Jesus, "Simon Peter" was his successor; but his own flesh and blood brother Yakub (Jacob, James the Just), who is mentioned frequently in the new testament as the patriarch of Isa's family and the leader of the church in jerusalem after Isa's departure....Wasi or Imam?

[Ismailite]

Qiyam,

my disagreement is that in my opinion, the Natiq-i Rasul (ie: Muhammad) is NOT a Mustaqarr Imam. In Muhamamd's time, Ali was the Mustaqarr Imam, Muhammad and the rest of the Natiqs and their succeeding Nabis were Mustawda Imams, that is my opinion.

Also, regarding the issue of Aaron and Joshua, it seems that Aaron was the holder of the Imamate (High Priesthood in the Torah) and after Aaron died, his son Eleazar became the Imam (High Priest). I would then say that Joshua was the Prophetic successor of Moses, but not the successor-Imam. Once again, i believe in separation of prophethood and Imamat. In the Old Testament narratives, both Joshua and Eleazar bin Aaron are shown as leaders of the Israelites.

Qiyam, i would agree with you that John was the Mustawda Imam during Jesus time, and after he died, Jesus became Mustawda Imam.
Regarding Jesus' wasi, it could be Simon Peter, but later scholarship has shown that it could also have been James, the brother of Jesus:

The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?" Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."”

- The Gospel of Thomas 12

It makes sense since James was actually related to Jesus, that he would be the Wasi.

On another note, in the case of the Mustaqarr Imam issue, one school of thought says that the Imams between Ishmael and Ali and onward were Mustaqarr Imams. Another school of thought says that with each Natiq, his Wasi becomes the Asa-Foundation of the Imamat of that cycle, and Mustaqarr Imams come from progeny of the Asas.

eg: in Adam's time, Seth was Asas and Imams descended from Seth. In Noah's time, Shem was Asas and Imams descended from Shem, or in Moses time, Aaron was Asas, and Imams descended from him (eg: the hereditary Aaronic Priesthood)

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by porus:
Qiyam,

I am making distinction between Quranic Imam and Imams as in Ithna-ashari and Ismaili concepts of Imam.

Quranic Imam is the leader of his nation as promised in the Quran to Ibrahim. This concept was extended to leadership of ummah upto the reign of Imam Jaafar as-Saadiq.

Imam as currently understood is derived from neo-platonic Fatimid philosophy. Imam is identified with Third Aql. It is in this sense that Adam is the first Imam. But the foundation remains at First Aql and Ali is identified with it. These roles were enacted in heavens leading to fall of Adam as tenth Aql, just a man, no longer an Imam.

While Fatimids and current Bohra/Ismailies make questionable attempt to re-interpret the Quran in neoplatonic terms, the fact remains that the concept of Imam has undergone drastic revision from the Quranic "leader of ummah" to a divine personality with with godly powers of omniscience etc.

Luckily for Itana-asharis and Bohras, Imam is in hiding and is in no danger of being called upon to prove his divinity. Attempt of Ismailies, on the other hand, to attribute divinity to Aga Khan seem to be patently ridiculous.

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by porus:
Qiyam,

I am making distinction between Quranic Imam and Imams as in Ithna-ashari and Ismaili concepts of Imam.

Quranic Imam is the leader of his nation as promised in the Quran to Ibrahim. This concept was extended to leadership of ummah upto the reign of Imam Jaafar as-Saadiq.

Imam as currently understood is derived from neo-platonic Fatimid philosophy. Imam is identified with Third Aql. It is in this sense that Adam is the first Imam. But the foundation remains at First Aql and Ali is identified with it. These roles were enacted in heavens leading to fall of Adam as tenth Aql, just a man, no longer an Imam.

While Fatimids and current Bohra/Ismailies make questionable attempt to re-interpret the Quran in neoplatonic terms, the fact remains that the concept of Imam has undergone drastic revision from the Quranic "leader of ummah" to a divine personality with with godly powers of omniscience etc.

Luckily for Itana-asharis and Bohras, Imam is in hiding and is in no danger of being called upon to prove his divinity. Attempt of Ismailies, on the other hand, to attribute divinity to Aga Khan seem to be patently ridiculous.

So when does the IMAM interpret the faith during current changing times, offer spiritual guidance? in my books, a hidden imam is just that........not zaher as in the Aga Khan. And in your own words, you used the word "danger" what??? since whe is the imam afraid of danger? NOW are the periods where Mureeds require guidance and spiritual help. so before calling that concept ridiculous, check your facts.

[porus]

Turbocanuck,

Let us first establish definitions.

What do you understand by the word divine as applied to Imam.

My definition is that Imam has attributes that cannot be shared by any other individual. This is by God's decree. This allows him access to knowledge no other human being can possibly possess and which can guide a human to "sakvation", whatever that is.

I do not mean a standard christian concept of man being divine because he is made in God's image. That divinity applies to all humans and therefore meaningless for our discussion.

So, if you agree, what is the attribute that only Aga Khan has that cannot possibly be possessed by any other human being by God's decree?

Once we establish that, we can debate further.