Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[allbird]

All these hindu judges are studying and learning about Nass and Dai sole successor on earth, what must be going in their minds ? Their belief in idols and their own religion will be getting more stronger and laughing their hearts out. When they must be going home and discussing with their friends and other members of family i would like to be fly on the wall to hear what their opinion on Bohras belief system and their control over the community. Both TF and Muffy and reduced bohra Islam to a BIG JOKE.

Even in my office other Muslim colleagues are asking everyday "Kon Jitta" "Kon Harra" and making a joke about our Dawoodi Bohra belief system. They are saying we have made mockery of the Paak religion of Islam which Rasool SAW gave us, existance of various sect in Islam doesn't bother so much, as much as this episodes of courtroom drama between TF and MS. Bohras are misled and misguided by these 2 jokers just for control and vitamin M.

[Fatema Yamani]

I agree with that, even my known Muslim friends are sending me links to news papers on a daily basis and asking what's going on.

I tell them it's all about the money, Islam or our belief is not involved in this.

[Biradar]

All these hindu judges are studying and learning about Nass and Dai sole successor on earth, what must be going in their minds ? Their belief in idols and their own religion will be getting more stronger and laughing their hearts out.

Not sure I understand the logic here. Why do you say "Their belief in idols and their own religion will be getting more stronger and laughing their hearts out."?

The question is simple: did or did not SMB do nass on SKQ. You do not need to believe in Islam to decide that. It is like a math problem: once you choose the axioms then you can prove theorems from them. You may not like the axioms or even think they are irrelevant to your own belief, but that is not the point: the point is to prove that so-and-so theorem follows from the set of axioms you choose.

So the axioms here, which the two parties are arguing about are:

• [A1] A nass in private is valid

• [A2] Nass once performed can't be revoked

• [A3] Mazoon can never lie about anything

The theorem one is trying to prove is "SKQ is the da'i al-mutlaq after SMB". Proof is obvious if you accept the axioms: he says nass was done on him. He can't lie (A3). He says it was done in private (A1) and that it is irrevocable (A2). QED.

Muffy is claiming that the first two are not the correct axioms, while FD people are claiming they are. If these axioms are established, then the claim that SKQ is the proper successor is true. Even Muffy realizes this and so he can't accept the first two axioms. Note: he must accept the third axiom as otherwise he would also have to accept the theorem that da'is can make mistakes in selecting their second-in-command and that all mazoons, including his own father who was mazoon during STS's era, are potentially liars, and one can't believe anything they say. This would be a disaster for the Bohra belief system as many mazoons became da'is.

Further, courts have handled such issues of religious succession and other issues all the time. I mean, have you not heard of the Babri Masjid case? There are numerous times courts have been approached to decide on issues on who the proper successor is. Obviously the court can't decide on correctness of a particular doctrine, only that once that doctrine is established and accepted by both parties do so-and-so follow? In fact, Indian courts have started to move into doctrinal issues also, which I think is a highly dangerous thing. For example, in the recent cases in which hijab was banned in the classroom by Hindu BJP, the courts were deciding the question if the hijab is an essential part of the religion or not. The judges there were hindu too, and there was split verdict.

It is the same in US courts. Due to First Amendment (FA) right to religious freedom, courts need to determine if the State stopping a specific religious practice is a violation of the FA. The FGM case in US was argued on FA grounds, for example.

Incidentally, in these proceedings though the FD people have no written proof, they appear the most closer to established Bohra doctrine. Muffy is making crap up as he goes along, as he has to protect his vast empire of wealth and power. He does not care about Bohras at all. It is best if your Hindu friends realize this and laugh at his greed and avarice. STF is a much better guy that this horrible, nasty and perpetually angry buffoon Muffy. Bohras need a da'i. STF is clearly the better person. Muffy will and is destroying the community from within. Just look at Bohras today: prosperity is declining, fanaticism is increasing and minds are getting narrower. What were once a progressive, liberal minded people are turning into a mad Taliban like cult.

[yfm]

Excellent Argument, Biradar.

[yfm]

Not sure I understand the logic here. Why do you say "Their belief in idols and their own religion will be getting more stronger and laughing their hearts out."?

Biradar, I think Allbird is just using an example of Hindus here. But from my own experience and knowledge, the Dawoody Bohras who were once respected as religious and spiritual people and also successful business community came to be scoffed at by everyone and that was mainly because of what these dais made us to be.

I believe as you said rightly, Muffy ( and I think all these recent dais) who is an epitome of the corrupt dais we have nurtured have turned us bohras in to a corrupt community who rob even our own people to look good to these dais by giving them robbed money and therefore no doubt, these dais will and is destroying the community from within. Just look at Bohras today: prosperity is declining, fanaticism is increasing and minds are getting narrower. What were once a progressive, liberal minded people are turning into a mad Taliban like cult and in general a little community with little people.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

All these hindu judges are studying and learning about Nass and Dai sole successor on earth, what must be going in their minds ? Their belief in idols and their own religion will be getting more stronger and laughing their hearts out.

......

The question is simple: did or did not SMB do nass on SKQ. You do not need to believe in Islam to decide that. It is like a math problem: once you choose the axioms then you can prove theorems from them. You may not like the axioms or even think they are irrelevant to your own belief, but that is not the point: the point is to prove that so-and-so theorem follows from the set of axioms you choose.

So the axioms here, which the two parties are arguing about are:

• [A1] A nass in private is valid

• [A2] Nass once performed can't be revoked

• [A3] Mazoon can never lie about anything

The theorem one is trying to prove is "SKQ is the da'i al-mutlaq after SMB". Proof is obvious if you accept the axioms: he says nass was done on him. He can't lie (A3). He says it was done in private (A1) and that it is irrevocable (A2). QED.

.........

Thank you bhai Biradar. This is a very good, concise, and logically correct explanation of the argument. It is helpful puts many of the discussions of this case in perspective. Quite helpful.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

some of the earlier comments about a Hindu judge are irrelevant in my mind.

The judge will go by the logic and that can be seen from his initial judgements on the "framing of the arguments" too.

In fact, I would posit that a Hindu judge would be better able to evaluate this compared to a Bohra or a Muslim judge as this person is just going to say - tell me what your doctrine is and how this is valid as per your agreed doctrine, and he may come with no pre-conceived notion.

[Fatema Yamani]

They are not actually fighting for rights to be a dai.

They are actually fighting for the rights of the properties.

There is a huge difference here.

[allbird]

Bro Birader ,

Good write up but step away from Bohras kurta-Izar and think from a different angle. My write up was based on the idea's and discussion i when through with my non-bohra work colleagues. For them no matter who ever wins or loses our belief system is proven wrong and a new Firq evolved just from greed of power and money.

Yes STS did nass on SKQ and see my previous post about and old lady i met whom STS asked do you want to see 53th Dai pointing out towards SKQ. So i do not deny that when SKQ took Quran Paak in his hands and was yelling what i am saying is the truth but people turn their backs and marched towards Muffy.

From what you are writing it points SMB DID A BIG BOO-BOO mess does anyone has b@lls to say SMB stab his father in the back. Hindu find whole Islam as terror religion and now this mess. They will follow the course of law and if a judgment has to be passed they will give logical ending to it, Its their job govt of India pays them to do it but where does our 1400 years old religious belief system stands. Whilst Muffy is defiant and keeps his mission of collecting $$$ mohallal from Bohras thinking he is going ALLAHs SWT work.

[Fatema Yamani]

From what you are writing it points SMB DID A BIG BOO-BOO mess does anyone has b@lls to say SMB stab his father in the back

one dont need balls to speak this truth

[Biradar]

Updates from Monday:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/m ... 7-amp.html

Again, the discussion is on axioms A1 and A2 I outlined about. Most damming is the following paragraph. Bolding is mine:

"The attention of the bench was then drawn to the sermons of defendant Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin during 2013 and 2014, pertaining to the issue of appointing successors during the time of the third, fourth and the fifth Dai. Desai submitted that in 2013, the defendant had maintained the line of his predecessors that the third Dai had intended to appoint the fifth Dai as his immediate successor but had not done so. However, in the 2014 sermon, he had stated that the third Dai appointed the fifth Dai as his immediate successor but later revoked the appointment and appointed his own son instead. This, Desai said, was to prove that revocation was permitted in the faith."

So Muffy has been caught doctoring the most well-know incident of nass during time of S. Hatim. In brief, S. Hatim intended to do nass on S. Ali bin Muhammad bin al-Walid. However, when S. Ali found out he requested that S. Hatim do nass on S. Ali bin Hatim instead, as S. Ali, who was much younger and was his student, had the additional distinction that he was the son of S. Hatim himself. SMB and others have mentioned this incident many times in their sabaqs and waez. Never once did SMB say that nass was changed! Now, Muffy is saying the nass was changed! What a liar this so-called da'i is. Shame on him for rewriting history to maintain his grip on power and wealth.

Further, Muffy is producing books from enemies of dawaat to prove nass can be changed! It is amazing. This man is a horrible liar and crook, totally destroying the Bohra doctrines. But I guess he does not care as long as he makes money and controls lives of his followers.

[Biradar]

Bro Birader ,

Good write up but step away from Bohras kurta-Izar and think from a different angle. My write up was based on the idea's and discussion i when through with my non-bohra work colleagues. For them no matter who ever wins or loses our belief system is proven wrong and a new Firq evolved just from greed of power and money.

So I guess the trust you place on your belief system is based on what your work colleagues think or say. Got it. No point in discussing further, as you seem to think that their opinion matters. You should look to them to tell you what you should believe. Maybe you should become a Hindu and wear tikka and dhoti instead of kurta-izar.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Bhai Biradar,

The axiom A1: As per Bohra doctrine, the claim is that it is applicable only to the mazoom, or to any ordinary Bohra?

Just trying to understand the Bohra doctrine, that is all.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

........................


I am now certain that SMB must have changed his mind in the end, but could not pull it off. He may have mentioned to some people that he intends to do nass on Muffy but then the stroke hit him and he could not do it in the public manner he likely wanted to do. His kids panicked that SMB would pass away soon, and so pulled the stunt in the hospital. Then they forced SMB to come to Bombay and put him through the horrific spectacle we saw in Raudat Tahera. I did a very careful audio analysis via software of the recordings and there is no evidence SMB said anything about appointing Muffy. Dr Moiz (LA) was basically making up whatever he wanted to continue with the game they had started in London. In the following years the children and brothers of SMB harassed him, parading him like a mannequin, with his mouth stuffed with dentures, so they could obtain legitimacy. The sight was truly pathetic and sad to see. But Muffy did not care. He is a buffoon and a fanatic and wanted his father's presence to solidify his own claims.

....................................

Bhai Biradar,

You said you did a detailed audio analysis with some software. Can you share it here?

[yfm]

So after all these information, we are still clinging on to these Dais.

Or are we just interested in the pleasure of reading about how these dais have got in to our souls.

[allbird]

From what you are writing it points SMB DID A BIG BOO-BOO mess does anyone has b@lls to say SMB stab his father in the back

one dont need balls to speak this truth

Yes you are absolutely right the truth might prevail and yes currently dawoodi bohras faith is in a very BAD state. In the hearts of heart everyone thinks SMB who was a very far sighted and just person did such a mistake ! How !!.

[allbird]

Bro Birader ,

Good write up but step away from Bohras kurta-Izar and think from a different angle. My write up was based on the idea's and discussion i when through with my non-bohra work colleagues. For them no matter who ever wins or loses our belief system is proven wrong and a new Firq evolved just from greed of power and money.

So I guess the trust you place on your belief system is based on what your work colleagues think or say. Got it. No point in discussing further, as you seem to think that their opinion matters. You should look to them to tell you what you should believe. Maybe you should become a Hindu and wear tikka and dhoti instead of kurta-izar.

Bro Biradar

you are going off the track now, from you write ups i see that you are anti-Muffi which makes you a pro-FD right. Which is okay there is no harm in that.
You are missing my point and like a typical DB you resort to name calling and asking me to become hindu, but i will not get angry and write counter derogatory words back.
Their opinion does MATTER by friend that's why the case is in the Indian Court in front of Hindu judges and lawyers. If it was family matter then outsiders opinion doesn't matter but NOW the family is the talk of MEDIA not a private internal. So what people on street, Mohallah, gully or office say yes it matters because SKQ did a big mistake by filling a case in Indian court. He was Mazoon for 50 years and next Dai in line. What did he learn about Imam Hassan AS and Imam Husain AS sacrifices. Let it go....if its your it will come back else it wasn't yours in first place. We have 1.2 million lives on trial and you are saying their opinion doesn't matter, my friend we are washing dirty laundry in public.

BTW i tell those people get popcorn and crispy chips out and enjoy the drama, i am not watching it but please keep me updated

[allbird]

So after all these information, we are still clinging on to these Dais.

Or are we just interested in the pleasure of reading about how these dais have got in to our souls.

Ditto

[Biradar]

Bhai Biradar,

The axiom A1: As per Bohra doctrine, the claim is that it is applicable only to the mazoom, or to any ordinary Bohra?

Just trying to understand the Bohra doctrine, that is all.

What do you mean? How can an ordinary Bohra become a da'i? In any case, A1 is applicable to anyone, not just a mazoon. Not all successors to a da'i were a mazoon before.

[Biradar]

More on the case from Hindustan Times. I have to say they are doing a pretty good job of daily coverage of this case:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/m ... 6-amp.html

Again, the argument is if the nass can be changed or not (Axiom A2 above). Now Muffy side says they produced a supposed will of 49th da'i which states that he changed the nass from one of his close aides to the future 50th da'i (S. Abdullah Badruddin). Highly unlikely scenario, but again, not impossible.

As to the other comments raised here. The reality is that Bohras need a da'i. There is no way around it. The Bohra mindset is too tied to the central role the da'i plays in their religious life. Sadly, this is the truth the Progressive Movement failed to fully grasp and so failed to sway more than a small sliver of people to their cause.

Now, the case being presided over by Hindu judges or lawyers is irrelevant. The theological position of the two factions is that their person is the right da'i. The court's role here is to hear the plaint brought by SKQ that as he is the real da'i he needs to be able to run the affairs of the community as he feels correct, and prevent the other guy from doing the same. Hence the first plea is that the court declare him the da'i. If the court can't do that, then everything else falls apart. It is not about properties per-se. But of course money and properties are involved.

This is also not a family matter that can be resolved internally. It is absurd to think so. The leadership of the community is a serious thing. I mean, what should they do? Sit in a room and drink tea and decide this issue?!

As to those who feel their Hindu and other friend's opinions matters: please just follow their opinions as clearly that is important to you. A child is swayed by opinions of their friends. It is called peer-pressure. The rest of us need to understand things on our own, independent of what our friends or family say. Allah has given the rest of us a brain. You follow opinions and we will follow our own intellects in this matter.

[anajmi]

Allah has given the rest of us a brain.

If you are a bohra, then that is obviously not true. Otherwise some neurons might've fired when multiple Dais showed up proclaiming themselves to be the true ones. And I am not just talking about this last split!!

[dal-chaval-palidu]

More on the case from Hindustan Times. I have to say they are doing a pretty good job of daily coverage of this case:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/m ... 6-amp.html

Again, the argument is if the nass can be changed or not (Axiom A2 above). Now Muffy side says they produced a supposed will of 49th da'i which states that he changed the nass from one of his close aides to the future 50th da'i (S. Abdullah Badruddin). Highly unlikely scenario, but again, not impossible.

..................................

I agree that it is good that HT is reporting on this, and to the reporter who is working on this.

I wonder if there are still a lot of constraints on the public reporting as I believe that while this case is sub-judice, there is a lot of evidence that they cannot talk about. Inshallah, I hope that it all comes out after the verdict.

I saw this in the article: " the Bombay high court asked the counsel for the plaintiff to exercise extreme caution as the sanctity of the tightly knit community was at stake"

I for one would like to know the truth and all the arguments. The truth will make the community free, and the sanctity of the truth should be preserved. The plaintiff counsel should state his case completely - at least some members of the community would like to know.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Does anybody have an idea what fraction of the community is following this case?

[Fatema Yamani]

0.1% are following this case, most are high with weed in muffy bhakti, most dont even know if some such case is going on.

[Fatema Yamani]

I think Taheri gang is waiting for the judgment, if it comes out against them then the real game will start where they will start disclosing all the dirty laundry of SMB and his so-called family.

picture abhi baki hai mere dost.

[allbird]

I think Taheri gang is waiting for the judgment, if it comes out against them then the real game will start where they will start disclosing all the dirty laundry of SMB and his so-called family.

picture abhi baki hai mere dost.

And I have popcorn Chips Samoa's coke ready. Enjoying every bit of it. Mockery of BD system who would be real winner from this ?

It's not 0.1 % but 99% percent of dB following , but they know with friends in high places and $$$$ in pockets we all know muffi and bros are clear winner.

Let's assume FD wins, who will run to mishaaq in thane and all those people yelling Lanat will now cry Moula Moula.

This so called person hoping for right verdict on STF favour doesn't think what we Bohr's have become a joke. There is NO REST OF US my friend ITS ONLY YOU in ga-ga land.

[allbird]

When Rasuallah SAW on his last Hajj turned towards Ruk-e-Hind and said my true believers will come from there. further to that the Hadees mentioned that Islam will split in 72 sects and various cults but there will be only ONE which would be the true one.

Now based on Axiom A1, A2, A3 and in addition to Fibonacci principle and combining LaPlace Theorem, might as well throw in newton laws we come to a belief that Dowoodi-Bohras is the CHOSEN ONE's and only and only true lover of Panjtan Paak. Dai-allah is one and truly sole Al-Ard on this planet earth where the sun and Moon rises by the Raza of the Dai-allah. Allah's toheed is bestowed upon the Dai-aallah and HE is the sole custodian of holy Quran and in time will become custodian of Qaaba with the army of Imam-Uz-Zaman. Further to that before dawn of time and most before SMS, email, snapchat etc Dai-allah can receive Vahi Aka Telepathy all instructions from Imam -uz-zaman, all decisions are based on toheed from Imam e zaman including Ashara venues, Ramazan menu, money collection instructions etc etc. Even naming your child the Dai informs one of his Faristha standing on his right side to fly to Jannah and please get the name of the child from heaven. Meaning before birth when i was roaming around in jannaat my name was example Allbird. Dai gets this message conveyed within fraction of a second whilst you are standing with a cover in your hand and before your Arz is finish for up coming childs name from Dai namely Burhanuddin.

Now a bit of prawachan (discourse) since i am a hindu now, Raza system. What is the importance of Raza ? By obtaining the Raza from Dai, he does a big time favour to you. For example i am planning a holidays to US of A this Christmas i will go to Dai for Raza prior to booking my tickets just in case the reply comes big NO. Why would Dai say no for my dream holidays because the plane i was booking on will crash into Atlantic Ocean and Dai just saved my life by not giving me Raza to fly. All this was done because Dai is the only known human aka Farista aka noor of Allah SWT who can foresee the upcoming event and can predict what's coming ahead of time and warn you through Raza. Now this is a good example why Raza is important in our DB system and Dai-Allah Al Ard can see through the Noor of Allah SWT which is bestowed to Dai by the Imam-uz-Zaman of time.

This is the theology of bohra belief system and all this is recorded by the British court during Chandabhai galla case. I remember when i was small and after Magrib-Esha namaz the Qibla curtains are shut close with the Dai-allah praying some secret namaz hidden from public views. My curiosity kicked in and asked an aunty what's the nature of this act, and was told that Dai-allah is having a secret meeting with Imam-uz-Zaaman, definitely there were no doors or windows in the Qibla so where does he comes from has secret meeting and exits from, till today it remains a mystery for me. So Dai has telepathic powers, communicates with Imam zaman, thousands of angels at this disposal, possesses noor of Allah SWT and foresee peoples future, has knowledge of this world and Aakheraat (the end).

Fast forward to 2022 and Guatam Patel is only way to find the truth............. Khuch baat samaj mei nahi aahi

[Fatema Yamani]

people who are even following the case have the attitude that ( aa badhu to chala kare)

for them, this is not a big deal or a game changer.

[juzer esmail]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/m ... 38596.html

[juzer esmail]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/m ... 40974.html