What is Sayedna’s wisdom?

[S. Insaf]

I am very very sorry as a Dawoodi Bohra, to admit that it was the biggest blunder committed by Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb.
22nd August 1988 was the 10th of Moharram, a day devoted commemorate the tragedy of Karbala. Sayedna’s vaiz tamasha was organised on grand scale. More than 50,000 Bohras were gathered in Bhindi Bazar, Bombay and were made sit on the road outside Saifee Masjid. Mikes and TV screens were put up all over the locality. Always the Shia Sunni vaizeen on 10th of Moharram stick to describing the tragedy of Karbala only. But on such a day Sayedna Burhanuddin chose to curse the first three Khalifas of Islam and Hazrat Aisha, the wife of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). He not only cursed them but ordered the present Dawoodi Bohra audience to repeatedly cruse them. There are several mosques, residences and shops in that area belonging to Sunni Muslims. Naturally it hurt their religious feelings and there was a riot between Bohras and Sunni Muslims.
Sayedna Saheb and their Shahzadas immediately left the place in police jeeps removing their turbans. According Blitz magazine there was a gang of Shiv Sanik already present in the Saifee wearing Bohra caps. Was it then, a pre-planned action? News spread all over Bombay among Muslims. They demanded an apology from Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb but he refused. There were several shops near Rozatut-Tahera selling Sayedna’s photographs. Agitated Muslims looted these shops along with other shops and passer-by Bohras were helplessly watching their beloved Almighty Aqa Moula’s photographs floating in drainages all over. They had never imagine that.
Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb went on claiming that cursing the first three Khalifa was right as per his “maslak” as per Shia tradition. But Shias also condemn this act and riots continued for days in which 5 innocent Muslims including 3 Dawoodi Bohras lost their lives. The property worth 12 Crores was destroyed. Situation became so tense that curfew was imposed for three days in Bhindi Bazar and Mohammad Ali Road Areas.
Following Friday after Friday prayers Muslims took out a protest march demanding an apology from Sayedna. On the interference of Maulana Ziauddin Bukhari and then Maharashtra Chief Minister Sharad Pawar, ultimately Sayedna Saheb agreed to tender an oral apology but Muslim leaders refused and demanded a written apology. Yusuf Najmuddin found it difficult that Sayedna Saheb who has all along claimed to be Kal-Masoom (near innocent, one who can not commit any sin or error); how can he submit a written apology and that too publicly?
Then Yusuf Najmuddin’s close friend and communist Urdu writer, Dr. Zoe Ansari came to their rescue. He very carefully drafted in Urdu language an apology using words like “Ma’zarat” for apology easily understood by Urdu knowing Muslims but difficult for Bohras. He also took care in not mentioning the Lanat episode but merely saying “mere chand kalemat jo mene 22 August 1988 ko kahe”. He also added that “I have always tried that in spite of differences in belief and faith the mutual relations and love with each other should prevail. It is because we have faith that the Muslims are united on the basis of the kalma that “There is no god but there is Allah".
Interestingly when Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb had claimed that he was “Ilahul-Ard”, God on earth, Justice Martin had quoted the same kalma, “There is no god but there is Allah" to smash late Sayedna’s claim.
In the mean time news had spread all over the country and Muslims from Maharashtra, Gujarat and Rajasthan were planning to file a suit against Sayedna Saheb in the courts of law. So it was decided that the written apology by Sayedna would published in newspaper and broadcasted over the television to reach to Muslims everywhere.
Therefore the apology drafted by Dr. Zoe Andari in consultation with Yusuf Najmuddin was copied by Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb in his writing and the copies were sent to all newspaper over night and then read out apology by Sayedna’s brother Qasim Hakimuddin was broadcasted on TV channels.
What was Sayedna Saheb’s wisdom in cursing the first three Khalifas and that too on the day of Ashura, is still not known.
Inspite of giving a written oath that “Last evening (due to my hurting utterances) the displeasing situation has been created that has weaken the mutual relations in Islamic nation. It is in benefit of all of us that we forget this bitterness and as usual embrace each other with trust and love.”, he, his family members, his Amils and his fanatic Dawoodi Bohras still continues to curse and hurt the feelings of Muslims in general.
What is Sayedna Saheb’s wisdom in perpetuating hatred among Muslims? What is Sayedna Saheb’s wisdom in having close association with hardcore Hindutwa leaders like Narendra Modi, who are most hated by Muslims? This is further creating a divide between Muslims and Dawoodi Bohras.
Is it in the interest of the community as a whole in long term?

[anajmi]

There was no wisdom in doing what the Syedna did. He is just as ignorant of bohra beliefs as some others on this board. He probably didn't read the "authentic" bohras books before becoming a Dai.

[Aarif]

Br. Insaf,

I don't know what's the point in repeating this same ghisa pitaa news again and again and again on this forum. Whatever Syedna did was wrong but what is the point in posting something that happened on 22nd August 1988 on 10th June 2008 almost after 20 yrs. This is something that everybody knows about by now. I think we should move on. And better try to address some other important issues related to our community which makes more sense at this point of time.

[mumineen]

aareef:

Can you tell us:
(a) What's the use of celebrating one's 97th birthday, salgirah, sorry, Milaad !! - how ignorant of us?
(b) What's the use of commemorating Ashura every year and Kotharis doing "pur josh matam" after every faraz during prayers and at the drop of each of their pagris?
(c) What is the use of commemorating Holocaust by the jews and 911 by the Americans?

If one does't learn from history, one tends to repeat the mistakes, tragedies or oppression. Why would the whole world's schools and universities teach history? Why does the Bohri Jaamiya teach (brainwash) the kids Maalumaat? Case rested!!

[Aarif]

Mumineen,

Sorry but the case is not rested. About world wars and other things that you have mentioned even after years they still happen. Even today war is going on between several nations. Even though every history book talks about world wars and the destruction that they have caused. What have people learned from the past??? Today the wars are more deadly and destructive then ever before. However, if you look at this case it has happened only once and that also 20 yrs back. After that this similar incident has not happened in bohra community again. In fact Syedna is very smart. He bloody well knows that he can make this kind of mistake only once if he wants to remain in power and in the good books of his political supporters. Hence, your argument has no DUM...

Apart from that Shia-Sunni riots is as much in fashion as it was ever before inspite of people talking about brotherhood and peace everywhere in world. Verbal riots happens even on this forum. Can you stop it on this forum atleast?? The answer is a big NO. So again what have we learned???

About Salgirah and other kothari propoganda believe me I am equally against it as much as you are. But two wrongs do not make one right. If they are doing it so will we. Is that what you are trying to say??? I will still hold my point of view that this topic is obsolete and makes no sense on this forum at this point of time.

[mumineen]

Aareef:

Why is there a criminal justice system, jails and hanging for criminals and murderers?. If there was a deterrence, then there would be no crimes. Why are there crimes still being committed? According to your argument, the society should just raise their hands in despair and abolish the criminal justice system and punishments and penalties as the same types of crimes are still being committed and people just don't learn from history (other people's past experiences and events).

The world would be a boring place if all the people were homogenously moral, law abiding and non-war-monger-like and perfect. That's why God all gave us, the homosapiens, brains to distinguish between good and bad; sins and virtues and so on. You make a decision accordingly by weiging risks and rsik assessments (i.e.learning from history) and accept the consequences of your actions. So simple, e'h!

[Aarif]

Br. Mumineen,

You did not quite get my point... In fact ur argument about justice system and other things do not make much sense in this context because here we are talking about learning something from the past in-order to improve the future. We are not talking in absolute terms that one is responsible for judging the right and wrong of one own's actions all the times and that's it. Even though in an ideal world that should be the case. However what you learn from a certain source makes sense depending upon the use that you are going to make of that learning. From this post of Br. Insaf, what have you learned about Syedna that you did not know already??? What is your take home from this post?? Do you or anybody visting this forum or even not visting this forum does not know about this incident and its brutal effect on the community???

I will accept your argument if so far you were thinking that Syedna is a GRT and wise man and after reading this post you have come to know his true colors and his love for the community.

[Al Zulfiqar]

what should be learned and propagated widely from Insafbhai's post is that the incident in mumbai proves that the syedna is not maasoom or kal-maasoom as he claims, that he is a liar and deceiver whose public apology at that time was a complete lie as he and his establishment continues to utter laanats on the 3 khalifas but only in code...!! slimy cowards who cannot find the bravery even to name their foes to utter abuses on them!!!

even if its all old and common knowledge, its time to recollect it at this important milestone of 20 years. thanks are due to Insafbhai for this, rather than ridiculing him and trying to be over-smart and blase' about it.

[neutralbohri]

Originally posted by Al Zulfiqar:
what should be learned and propagated widely from Insafbhai's post is that the incident in mumbai proves that the syedna is not maasoom or kal-maasoom as he claims, that he is a liar and deceiver whose public apology at that time was a complete lie as he and his establishment continues to utter laanats on the 3 khalifas but only in code...!! slimy cowards who cannot find the bravery even to name their foes to utter abuses on them!!!

Brother Zulfiqar , Sydena not repeating that mistake and uttering laanats in code is good for the community - Isnt it!! The community understands that the laanats are for whom and the outside world does not know. So we remain at peace with other communities and so violence does not take place as it happenned 1988.

The whole point of this thread is that Syedna shouldnt have cursed the three caliphs because his wisdom should have told him that it might lead to a lot of inconvenience for his followers.

[Aarif]

The whole point of this thread is that Syedna shouldnt have cursed the three caliphs because his wisdom should have told him that it might lead to a lot of inconvenience for his followers.

Neutral,
Whatever you have qouted requires common sense and not wisdom. Unless you do not understand the difference between common sense and wisdom...

[mumineen]

aareef:

You also did not exactly "get my point."

When I discussed about the criminal justice sytem, I was also here "talking about learning something from the past in-order to improve the future." i.e. deterrence, punishment and penalties.

Teaching history is not" preaching Gospel to the converted". The repeatiton of history is for the new or next generation or people who are not cognizant of the past events or people. It is also to prevent or dissuade the revisionists who for their own ulterior or political reasons etc., wish to amend or revise the real historical facts.

Perhaps you are confused between the difference between common sense and wisdom. Sometimes there is a fine line, you know!

[neutralbohri]

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jun/11rajriot.htm;

Something like this might be called an achievement if peace is achieved.

[neutralbohri]

Originally posted by Aareef:

The whole point of this thread is that Syedna shouldnt have cursed the three caliphs because his wisdom should have told him that it might lead to a lot of inconvenience for his followers.

Neutral,
Whatever you have qouted requires common sense and not wisdom. Unless you do not understand the difference between common sense and wisdom...

Aareef- I certainly know the difference. But I think you do not know that Common Sense is the most uncommon commodity in the world.

[neutralbohri]

Originally posted by Aareef:

The whole point of this thread is that Syedna shouldnt have cursed the three caliphs because his wisdom should have told him that it might lead to a lot of inconvenience for his followers.

Neutral,
Whatever you have qouted requires common sense and not wisdom. Unless you do not understand the difference between common sense and wisdom...

Further to add - Common Sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls Wisdom.

[Aarif]

Further to add - Common Sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls Wisdom.

I don't know what the world says about wisdom but this surely looks your own cooked up definition.

Here is one link that might help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom

[Aarif]

Perhaps you are confused between the difference between common sense and wisdom. Sometimes there is a fine line, you know!

No I am not confused. Read my post to Neutral. Also, in context of this post by Br. Insaf which fine line you are reffering to??? It would be interesting to understand that rather then running in other directions...

[jayanti]

mr insaf

[seeker110]

Everything that happens probably is a planned action.Religion usually is absent of witnesses at the crusial times.All the big miracles happened when nobody was around to verify.
Here is my take on the incidence.Insurance scam.All the shops around were probably for warned.Most expensive items were removed beforehand.Those that were left out were likely not paying the dues.They were taught a lesson.
These people have no shame.They have in past done provacative things in the past got away with murder.

[like_minded]

Originally posted by Aareef:
Br. Insaf,

I don't know what's the point in repeating this same ghisa pitaa news again and again and again on this forum. Whatever Syedna did was wrong but what is the point in posting something that happened on 22nd August 1988 on 10th June 2008 almost after 20 yrs. This is something that everybody knows about by now. I think we should move on. And better try to address some other important issues related to our community which makes more sense at this point of time.

I fully endorse your post bro areef. There is no point posting lengthy articles repeatedly about what happened 20 years back.

And besides, we pretty well know how kothar works, their agenda and motive.

Need of the hour is to expose other sinister acts which kothar blatantly commits everyday all in the name of Islam and dawat.

Two months back "baraat" was imposed on a bohra family in Bangalore. The family agreed to the nikaah ceremony carried out by a sunni priest on occassion of their daughter's marraige with a sunni boy.

The aamil of Bangalore, issued warning to all bohras, who were invited by this family, not to attend the ceremony. The reason stated was that the nikaah was without razaa, and that the alliance could only be approved if HE conducts the nikaah after performing the misaaq of the sunni boy. As the sunnis do not utter laanats on 3 caliphs, the misaaq was compulsary, and not abiding by it would only invite trouble.

Subsequently, the family went ahead with their original programme which led to cancellation of their raza and sabeel.

[S. Insaf]

I thank you all for debating this topic. But my intention in posting a 20 year old event in details was to show what happens when one hurts some one's religious feelings. It is further clear from questions asked by me at the end:

What is Sayedna Saheb’s wisdom in perpetuating hatred among Muslims?

What is Sayedna Saheb’s wisdom in having close association with hardcore Hindutwa leaders like Narendra Modi, who are most hated by Muslims? This is further creating a divide between Muslims and Dawoodi Bohras.

Is it in the interest of the community as a whole in long term?

Please go to Gujarat and see what feelings general Muslims have for Dawoodi Bohras?
The incident is old but the questions which need answers are current.
Is it not the time to say good bye to Kothar's dirty politics and adopt a policy of civil disobedience?
Please think over.

[Aarif]

Is it in the interest of the community as a whole in long term?

Please go to Gujarat and see what feelings general Muslims have for Dawoodi Bohras?
The incident is old but the questions which need answers are current.
Is it not the time to say good bye to Kothar's dirty politics and adopt a policy of civil disobedience?

Br. Insaf,

The post that you have written only talks about the problems that we are facing in this community for years. And that is why I am saying that people are well aware of these existing problems in the community. What senior reformists like you can do is suggest some remedies that will help in improving the community for good. It is good to discuss problems but more important is to find meaningful solutions to it.

[accountability]

"It is good to discuss problems but more important is to find meaningful solutions to it. "

This is a big delimna for every reform minded person. we can pin point the problem. But the soloution is nowhere to be found. I think to find the soloution, we have to go to back to the problem, the soloution will lie somewhere therein. There are no of progressive thinking bohras here and in community, but when they go to jamat khana or masjid, they are greatly outnumbered by those, who are orthodox. Even though they may not agree with whatever is said and done there, but in that charged atmosphere, no voice of reasoning can be raised.

Saifuddin Bhai's article is relevent after 20 years in a way. Syedna Saheb still proclaims lanat in not so hidden manner. The amils follow in rhitorical compliance, I am sure, most of them have none or very little knowledge of islamic history. syedna Taher saifuddin adopted Hakimite tradition, he dug deep into his life style. Imam Hakim has been cited by crusaders for desecretion of churches and christianity. Morever Hakim started blasting three caliphs, which became practice for some time. But after his disappearence, it was abondoned. Meanwhile majority sunnies in egypt were so disgruntled, that it did not take long for them to support salahdin ayubi, and very soon fatimid empire lost its power.

syedna taher saifuddin transformed our commumity into druze like secretive sect and cult with hidden and obvious behaviors. Before the community was run as a sect of main stream islam with vilaya as its pillar. it did not touch the boundry of slavery. the submission was not so total, and it was spritual rather than physical and psychological. But syedna tahir saifuddin changed vilaya in such a manner, that the whole sect became a cult.

bhindi bazar incident was manifestation of cultish mentality, it betrayed the normal wisdom. There is a big issue with this practice. In pakistan there is an active law, which prohibits insulting sahabas and ahle bait. if someone goes to a court of law and accuses bohra religious heirarchy, if they happen to be in pakistan, they can be apprehended, and they will be forced a sworn statment, remember, in pakistan it is quran which they will have to swear on.

if such an incident rises up, it will inflame entire community, the soloution is, to tell that it is not wise to utter such insults. But who will dare it on the face.

[Al Zulfiqar]

so wouldnt it be easy to carry a discreet voice recorder into any of our masjids in pakistan and the arab gulf countries and then submit the tape as evidence to the govt?

the problem is it would also hurt the larger interests of the community and that, unfortunately, is a collateral damage which is not acceptable even to a reformist's conscience. i have often balked at reporting such events and happenings in our community to the govt. authorities when i was in the gulf, for precisely this reason. those guys out there are extremely hot-headed and if they learn of the unislamic practices prevailing in our community, they will not only humiliate the amil and the kothar, but also penalise ordinary hard working bohras, incl. people whose families back home survive on their remittances, legitimate businessmen and professionals.

if someone with connections within the govt can convince them to leave the community alone, but punish the kothari lackeys only, it would work. I have in the past also mentioned about reporting FGM being practised by our people in the west, but no one from our community has decided to act on it. this is what is meant as affirmative action. since the PDB jamaats are openly reformist, they can easily take some initiative on this and report it without fear of repurcussions.

also reporting corrupt amils to the immigration authorities, as they are all on religious worker's visas. what are the reformist jamaats doing about all these things?

[Muslim First]

I have in the past also mentioned about reporting FGM being practised by our people in the west, but no one from our community has decided to act on it. this is what is meant as affirmative action. since the PDB jamaats are openly reformist, they can easily take some initiative on this and report it without fear of repurcussions.

B. AZ

AS

If you have knowledge about ladies who are performing FGM surgery then you should report it to authorities.
Wasalaam
.

[Smart]

This thread proves a few points which I would like to summarise:

1. The Syedna is not only not extraordinarily intelligent, he even lacks commonsense.

2. His claim of infallibility has been proved to be wrong. Which also destroys his claim to be the owner of the sole selling agency of God.

3. He is a craven coward, you lacks the spine to stand up and be counted for his convictions and willing to stake his interests for his principles, if any.

4. He believes in the principle of "Exploit and get exploited", instead of live and let live. His actions in presence of Bal Thackeray and Narendra Modi are example of his craven behaviour.

[Omar Bin Abubakar]

Regarding Smarts 2nd point:

No human can claim infallibility because it is only a trait of the one and only God Allah, who can do no wrong...

Basic logic:
Human being = Prone to error. infallibility?i think not...
(e.g of Syednas Fallibility, just go back 20 odd yrs ago when he uttered lanths in public to the caliphs which ended up in riots and destruction, for his own followers as well)Infallibility?

GOD = Infallible without doubt; unless Syednas supporters are saying that he has the same qualities of God.

[shoaibih]

Aye Saifuddin Na Jani Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo,
Mohammad Noor e Qudsani Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo,

Aye Aqa Ap Par Sadqey Aye Maula Ap Par Qurban,
Kahey che Sagla Qudsani Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo,

Kari didu Aa Dawat nu Chaman Phal Phool thi abad,
Pilawee Ilm na Pani Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo,

Imam ul Asar ni Dawat na Khatir Mumineen Khatir,
Dua che eim Sagla ni Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo,

Yamani Abde Khaki ni che Tasbeeh Raat Din Maula,
Zameen par Muki Peshani Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo.

[Omar Bin Abubakar]

Answer to everything..."Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo"

[Omar Bin Abubakar]

Answer to everything..."Ghanu Jeevo Ghanu Jeevo"

[Smart]

Ghanu Jeevo chants, should be put up on wheels and taheris told to spin the wheels, like the Tibetan buddhists do? Completely mind numbing exercise!