Ismaili Immamat

[jawanmardan]

Now as far the people who blow themselves up, I am not sure why you think they are any more knowledgeable in the quran

Precisely, that murdering people in the name of Islam is a real misrepresentation of Islam, not how many times I pray and whether I hold my hands to the side, or folded, and where my toes are pointed when I’m sitting. Get a grip of what is important.

Ismaili brother avoided that question

I am not an expert in Ta’lim , and never claimed to be; if your truly interested in learning about Batin then I would be more than willing to recommend some introductory sources, I can even paste examples from the Qu’ran. I am also willing to explain the concept to you, I am not qualified to perform Tafsir either, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

I‘ll rephrase what I have yet to receive an answer to, why if your interpretation of Islam is the only true version, has it become infected with violence; of the most depraved, and inhuman kind? You’ve also not dealt with the role of women, and you’re the one who defends the idea that the prophet would go around setting buildings alight. You negate one type of unprovoked violence; yet approve of another. If you can sit at ease with that contradiction, all power to you.

It boils down to this, if your seriously want to go down the route of saying my Islam is better than yours, I’m right, your wrong, I’m Muslim your Kafir…your going to have to point to a modern Muslim state and leader who has recently or is now living the dream man.

If you can’t or won’t then lets move on to actually trying to co-operate, and appreciate each other in our common faith and humanity, which will be far more productive for either of us.

Salaam

I find a lot of spiritual comfort reading from scholars from Meshed, in Iran to Cairo in Egypt, I even give my time as a mentor to help young Muslims break into the media in Britain so that WE are better able to represent Islam, when it or the Palestinians are marginalised, I know of two other Isma’ili friends who work for leading UK newspapers who are actively doing something similar. We’re not your enemy.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

So according to you, if there are people who are committing big crimes in the name of Islam, it now becomes ok for you commit what you think are small ones in comparison?

So if someone murders in the name of Islam, it now becomes ok for you to ignore the salaah as prophet taught simply because you think it is insignificant as compared to murdering someone?

Now that is good teaching from the living Imam. If I were you, I would continue to wish for someone who murders in the name of Islam so that I can give myself the excuse of ignoraning the commandments of Islam.

There is going to be no cooperation between muslims as long as people like you continue to blame Islam for misdoings of others. Atleast I never blamed Islam or the quran for the Aga Khan or the Syedna fooling his followers.

[anajmi]

I am not an expert in Ta’lim , and never claimed to be; if your truly interested in learning about Batin then I would be more than willing to recommend some introductory sources, I can even paste examples from the Qu’ran. I am also willing to explain the concept to you, I am not qualified to perform Tafsir either, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

If you are willing to do all this, then please do. How many times will we have to ask you? Kindly post the batini interpretation of Surah Fatiha according to the Living Imam.

[anajmi]

All you have to do is copy and paste, you don't need to be an Alim. I am not interested in your personal batini interpretation, only your living Imam's.

[anajmi]

jamanpasand,

Actually I was one of ladies in the burqa getting whacked, hence you can't see my face.

[jawanmardan]

Anjali stop scuttling around the issue, I didn’t blame Islam; your friends who do the bombings did that. I just stated my position on Islam and violence. I even stated what I am doing to improve Islam’s image.

So according to you, if there are people who are committing big crimes in the name of Islam, it now becomes ok for you commit what you think are small ones in comparison?

No, but I am bored of repeating myself; so I’ll say it once more, so read carefully, I don’t accept that your version of Islam is the right one, or the one the prophet intended, get around the concept that I have a different interpretation.

I don’t see what I do as wrong, and I don’t view the Qu’ran as being created, if you want to debate THAT philosophical point with me then shoot.

Do you believe a women has less intelligence than a man? should only have the legitamacy of a man in court, or should be beaten by their husbands (lightly) what ever that means.

If you don’t believe in an Imamate, or in Batin, that’s fine. Be a happy Sunni or what ever you wish to define yourself as. I hope your happy and prosper.

If you are willing to do all this, then please do. How many times will we have to ask you? Kindly post the batini interpretation of Surah Fatiha according to the Living Imam.[\quote]

anajami,; I have not studied the esoteric aspect in detail within my Tarqiah, these are good recourses on the subject for those who wish to begin the journey, I hope this helps your understanding of the concept that is what this is about:

http://www.answers.com/topic/esoteric-i ... the-qur-an

Islamic Philosophy, Theology, and Mysticism: A Short Introduction
by Majid Fakhry

“Spiritual Body and Celestial Earth”
by Henry Corbin

[jawanmardan]

anajmi, if your not going to reas my post I don't see what the point is: this is what I wrote at the very end of my post.

I find a lot of spiritual comfort reading from scholars from Meshed, in Iran to Cairo in Egypt, I even give my time as a mentor to help young Muslims break into the media in Britain so that WE are better able to represent Islam, when it or the Palestinians are marginalised, I know of two other Isma’ili friends who work for leading UK newspapers who are actively doing something similar. We’re not your enemy.

This is the guff you respond with:

There is going to be no cooperation between muslims as long as people like you continue to blame Islam for misdoings of others. Atleast I never blamed Islam or the quran for the Aga Khan or the Syedna fooling his followers.

If I'm learning from Ithna Ashari in Iran, and Sunni in Cairo, does that sound like I'm blaming the Islam, Saydina of whom I know very little, or anyone else?

I blame intollorent Muslims who interpret Islam using narrow definitions to decide who is Muslim, and accusing anyone who disagrees a of being Kafir. I don't appreciate anyone taking my words out of context.

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Muslim First didn't call him anything. He just posted the hadith of the prophet.

You are misrepresenting fellow Wahabi's post. He didn't just post the "truth", he concluded with his opinion that If prophet were alive today he will be inclined to set your Imam’s palace, His Hotels and his Horse barns to fire. What I have read of your God is that She is most merciful and most compassionate.

[anajmi]

My Ismaili Brother jawanmardan,

All you have to do is post the batini interpretation of Surah Fatiha according to your living Imam. I am sure you must've heard it in one of your religious gatherings. If you haven't then maybe your living Imam is taking you for a ride.

Now as far as people who interpret the quran and want to kill each other, please take up the issue with them. If one of them shows up on this board I will debate with them. Till then let us simply stick to what you believe and what I believe.

Average,

Looks like all the resident kafirs are suddenly loosing their manhood and turning into lesbians. A banana isn't as good my friend.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

No, but I am bored of repeating myself; so I’ll say it once more, so read carefully, I don’t accept that your version of Islam is the right one, or the one the prophet intended, get around the concept that I have a different interpretation.

That is what I've been asking you to produce. What is your interpretation of the quran? Then you say you aren't knowledgeable enough. Then if you aren't then may be you have no clue that your interpretation is wrong. I don't have a version of Islam. My version of Islam is the same as the version of Islam practiced by the Prophet. If you can prove that what you do today was the same as what the prophet used to do, I will be glad to become an Ismaili.

[jawanmardan]

I put it to you, your fixation with Surah Fathia stems from nothing more than the fact that I don’t have a copy of it’s Batiniya interpretation, so it makes you feel like your winning an argument which in all truth is what you want, an argument. You have no interest in understanding my beliefs, or values.

Does not Sayedina believe in Batin too? Or did my Imam Invent it and Sayedina latched onto the concept so that together they could both take people for a ride?

let us simply stick to what you believe and what I believe.

I asked you quite simple questions regarding your beliefs on the rights of women and you have avoided answering every single one, with incoherent rants about Kafirs, lesbians, Bananas, and manhoods.

Your responses have consisted of claiming the Prophet would be an arsonist setting buildings alight were he alive today; to being disrespectful to my Imam, which I put up with in the hope of building understanding.

I see no point in continuing this conversation with you; I am too tired and too offended by you. I came on this board to learn more about my Fatimid Isma’ili brothers and sisters, and to build a better understanding of them, not to debate with extremist Sunni’s.

May God give us Peace

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

I apologize about not answering the question you asked because I didn't read your post thoroughly. I normally do that for people who ask questions in response to questions instead of answering them.

Now to your questions

Do you believe a women has less intelligence than a man?

No I don't. I have encountered some men who are far dumber than any woman I have encountered. Some of them on this very board.

should only have the legitamacy of a man in court, or should be beaten by their husbands (lightly) what ever that means.

Not sure what you are asking over there, but a woman's word has legitimacy in court. Not sure what gave you the idea that it doesn't. I believe if a husband is screwed up, then he should be beaten too.

[jawanmardan]

anajmi,

I really didn't, and do not want to argue. I Love my Allah, my Prophet, and my Imam.

I'm willing to answer questions which are dedicated toward building understanding; not scoring points, or proving who is wrong. That goes against what I believe.

I don't want you to be Isma'ili, what you decide to believe is based on the certainty of your convictions.

[anajmi]

Does not Sayedina believe in Batin too? Or did my Imam Invent it and Sayedina latched onto the concept so that together they could both take people for a ride?

This might be a revelation to you, but I think the Syedna actually is a bigger fake than your Imam. Your Imam has given up at least some of the pretense of being a Muslim.

[anajmi]

I'm willing to answer questions which are dedicated toward building understanding;

Fine, then let us figure out what is common amongst us. Do you pray like the prophet used to?

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Fine, then let us figure out what is common amongst us. Do you pray like the prophet used to?

Osama bin Laden does; so quit trying to distance yourself from him. Jawanmardan is trying to reach out to you to find common ground and you can't see past your bigotry.

[jawanmardan]

Not sure what you are asking over there, but a woman's word has legitimacy in court. Not sure what gave you the idea that it doesn't. I believe if a husband is screwed up, then he should be beaten too.

Let me rephraise the question, do you think that it takes two women to equal one mans testimony in a court of law?

While you believe women should be beaten, and that men should be beaten. Isma'ili do not view violence of any form as a solution to societal or marital difficulties, in this world.

Fine, then let us figure out what is common amongst us. Do you pray like the prophet used to?

No I don't, I pray very similar, but not the same. The Qu'ran asks us to to establish regular prayer, which we do, and does not specify a form.

Hope that helps.

[makberi]

Bro jawanmardan i havent really known any aga khanis first hand so i dont know much abt them....so pls forgive my ignorance....but i wud like to know how much involvement does the the Aga khan have in the day to day lives of his followers...i mean does he offer sermons...i guess the batini aspects must be hidden to most followers....but does the imam teach sme ppl of this knowledge..do u guys also have an ulema or bunch of learned ppl with access to this knowledge......

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

Let me rephraise the question, do you think that it takes two women to equal one mans testimony in a court of law?

Depends upon the case. For eg, in a court case the word of a forensic scientist is much more valued than that of an ordinary person providing circumstantial evidence. So if the defense brings 10 alibis and the prosecution brings one forensic scientist, chances are that the evidence of the forensic scientist will be more valued. By the way, when you pose these questions, kindly post the quranic ayahs that you are referring to. If you don't know, let me know and I will post them for you. Otherwise, try to see beyond the propaganda that Average Morons have been putting out there about Islam and Muslims.

Average,

Stop wasting my time. Start thinking beyond Osama otherwise your masters will keep causing murder and mayhem with futile wars around the world. If you don't then Osama will get you. Look over there he is plotting an IED up your rectum.

[anajmi]

No I don't, I pray very similar, but not the same. The Qu'ran asks us to to establish regular prayer, which we do, and does not specify a form.

You acknowledge that you don't pray as the prophet did ("very similar" is subjective). The quran says obey Allah and his messenger. The fact that you know that you don't pray like the prophet automatically suggests that you know how the prophet prayed. Is there a reason why you choose not to pray like the prophet did? Do you think his method is wrong? or outdated? Do you think your Imam is better than the prophet of Allah?

These are not rhetorical questions. I would prefer that you answer them.

[makberi]

bro anajmi ur argument doesnt make much sense...i mean r u tryin to say that men are more qualified then women.....then the whole point wudnt make sense....pls if u can rpoduce the appropriate ayahs or hadith i wud be very obliged...i m aware of another hadith..excuse me for not quoting the eaxt wording but i m in hurry n cant really find it right away....but accordin to the hadith a woman came n told the Prophet that her husband slapped her without reason....wat shud she do....the Prophet said slap him back...everyone was suprised with the response of the Prophet....how cud a woman slap a man like that....but thats wat the Prophet said..pointing that the Prophet believed in equal rights for women...he was deeply influenced by hi wife Khadijah.....who despite being a woman was one of the most successful businessperson in Makkah....thats y the Prophet propogated equal inheritence for women and was strongly agianst female infanticide....i think Khadijah was as modern as the women of today...she is the ideal role model for muslim women.....

[anajmi]

bro makberi,

Would you agree that a man is physically and emotionally stronger than a woman? Even if you don't, that is a scientific fact. Now for a job which required physical strength, for eg lifting heavy stuff, a man is more qualified. A man will be able to lift more than a woman in a single attempt. The enemies of Islam will come up with a million arguments but the facts do not change.

I was watching the discovery channel the other day and saw that there are certain types of praying mantis where after mating the female rips apart the head of the male and starts eating it. She does this for the sake of her eggs. That is nature.

Now, in taking care of a child, a woman is infinitely more qualified than a man. That is also a fact. Doesn't matter how hard a man tries he won't be able to squeeze milk out of his nipples. I am not sure about some of the resident kafirs though who are slowly turning.

The translation of the ayah is copied below. It is a pretty long ayah. The context is specific to "transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time" if the "party liable is mentally deficient or weak".

Some people try to insinuate that this ayah makes a blanket statement that a woman's witness is half that of a man. It does not. If a woman witnessed a murder or a theft, her witness will hold the same weight as a man's witness.

It is not a woman's job to be participating in business dealings or loan dealings (Islamically speaking). Besides, the quran is specific in saying that the witness of the second woman is needed only if the first one errs.

That is the best I can do, if you are still unconvinced, then you are welcome to believe what you want.

002.282
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If the party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah; For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.

[jawanmardan]

Bro jawanmardan i havent really known any aga khanis first hand so i dont know much abt them....so pls forgive my ignorance....

Salaam Makberi, I hope that by being here I can enlighten people as to our beliefs and thank you for your questions. If I may request that we are not referred to as "Aga Khanis", the Agha Khan is a secular non religious title, We prefer Nizari, or Isma’ili.

i wud like to know how much involvement does the the Aga khan have in the day to day lives of his followers...i mean does he offer sermons...

The Imam gives Farhmans to his followers; these are speeches regarding a variety of subjects of concern, from religious, to educational, and secular matters. A Farhman is read out every time Isma'ili gather in a Jammat Khana.

The Imam also has created governing councils, to take care of our spiritual, and material needs. They are run by volunteers.

i guess the batini aspects must be hidden to most followers....

Anyone who is interested in undertaking a detailed study of our faith, are able to do so. They will be put through a programme of study.

Batin, is taught in a synergy with our history, the study of religious texts, as well as many areas of thought such as cosmogony, cosmology, ontology, theology, theodicy and philosophy. It's a difficult endeavour, which is taxing both spiritually and intellectually.

....but does the imam teach sme ppl of this knowledge...

Those few men and women who reach a certain level will have the opportunity of spending a period with the Imam.

do u guys also have an ulema or bunch of learned ppl with access to this knowledge......

We don't have an established Hoodod, or Ulema.
There are ordinary members of the Jammat who have received higher training, They have various titles, some of the best are given the title "Rai".

Rai and other “title holders”, live and work in many fields from medicine, to law, or as scientists. They are not paid for their service.

Most Ism’aili receive their religious education from "The Isma'ili Religious Education Boards" or ITREB, there are national, regional, and local boards, they are made up of ordinary members of our Jammat who are given basic training, and serve for a limited period.

ITREB deals with all religious matters, and ensure that basic religious education is delivered to the community effectively.

Rai often have spent time sitting on ITREBs national council; when their time is up they become ordinary members of the Jammat, who help when ITREB or fellow Isma’ilis call them on.

Hope this helps

[jawanmardan]

You acknowledge that you don't pray as the prophet did ("very similar" is subjective). The Qu’ran says obey Allah and his messenger. The fact that you know that you don't pray like the prophet automatically suggests that you know how the prophet prayed. Is there a reason why you choose not to pray like the prophet did? Do you think his method is wrong? or outdated? Do you think your Imam is better than the prophet of Allah?

I don't see how anyone chooses to pray as wrong, Isma'ili Namaaz is based on the Imami Jaferite Madhab where are hands fall to our sides, however when we lift our hands up in supplication we ask for Gods blessings upon our Imam, and thank God for providing us with his guidance.

Our Dua is performed while sitting and standing.

Dhikr Is also another important aspect of meditative and reflective understanding, where Tasbieh are used.

I have read Sunni literature when I was at university, which patronisingly claimed women were emotional creatures, unable to think straight; and so men had to forgive their unhappy state.

I see that equivocate men as forensic experts, and women as emotional hysterics, who deserve half the representation of Men in court, or as you put it:

10 alibis and the prosecution brings one forensic scientist, chances are that the evidence of the forensic scientist will be more valued.

This is not my belief this seems to be yours, I’m not going to prove what you believe, just as I don’t expect you to prove what I believe. Have I missed something?

Also why is it that those who follow the same religious interpretation as you are committing suicide, and killing so many in the name of your version of Islam, who like you attack anyone who does not follow their “pure” version of Sunni Islam, can you not see the correlation in their thinking and yours? Can you not see the vast majority of Sunni do not want to be tarnished with your extremism? This too is not a rhetorical question.

[Alislam]

Extremists (aka wahabis) needs to do some real introspection & soul searching and analyze what they believe and do in the name of Islam.

Any suicide bomber with a muslim sounding name is always from this school of thought.

can any wahabi (on this board) explain why ??

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

As I said, I have nothing more to add. You can believe what you want to.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

I see that equivocate men as forensic experts, and women as emotional hysterics, who deserve half the representation of Men in court, or as you put it

Now you have resorted to misleading. Did I mention that forensic experts have to be men? Did I also mention that women are emotional hysterics? People have to resort to exaggerations to prove an invalid point.

I have nothing more to add.

[Average Bohra]

Anajmi is simply blowing smoke. Here's the real Wahabi point of view regarding women.

Courtesy of Birmingham’s Green Lane mosque :

“Allah has created the woman – even if she gets a Ph.D. – deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man.”
“By the age of ten, it becomes an obligation on us to force her to wear hijab, and if she doesn’t wear hijab, we hit her.”
“Men are in charge of women. Wherever he goes she should follow him, and she shouldn’t be allowed leave the house without his permission.”
"The Prophet Mohammed practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty, with his practice he clarified what is permissible and that is why we shouldn’t have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage"

Does this guy "pray like the Prophet did" ? You bet your *** . So much for that yardstick

[anajmi]

It's a good thing then that I am not a wahabi. Here is my point of view.

004.124
YUSUFALI: If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

049.013
YUSUFALI: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

033.035
YUSUFALI: For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

003.195
YUSUFALI: And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."

009.071
YUSUFALI: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.

030.021
YUSUFALI: And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.

004.019
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Here is one ayah of the quran where one woman is equal to 4 men.

024.004
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

[anajmi]

One other thing, I seriously believe that just like Osama this guy in the birmingham green lane mosque might be a creation of certain evil powers to give a bad name to Islam.