Ismaili Immamat

[Average Bohra]

You are right. US is responsible for the spread of Wahabism. They propped up a tribe of Bedouins to rule Saudi Arabia who in turn used its petro dollars to influence impressionable young East Indian Anajmis and MFs of the world into all things Arabic, including Wahabi extremism.

Originally posted by anajmi:
It's a good thing then that I am not a wahabi. Here is my point of view.

004.124
YUSUFALI: If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

Your point of view is a quote from someone else ? How pathetic. You again are blowing smoke up someone’s *** . If the venom you post was not Wahabic, your first question to jawanmardan would have been “YUSUFALI: Do you do good deeds” and not “do you pray like the prophet did”.

You continue to be an ignorant scum bag.

[aftabm]

JawanMardan,

forgive my ignorance but plz tell who collects the zakat monies from ismaili ummah....

and are there any more taxes like haqqun nafs,fitra and what nots....

[jawanmardan]

Brother Amerge, Note that I am happy to answer questions.

The tithing is voluntary, and is up to 12% of ones income; there is no pressure to contribute this amount, and no stigma attached to anyone who cannot afford that amount. Those who do, do so in private, to avoid it becoming a public matter.

We also give small amounts when we enter Jammat Khana to symbolise the rejection of the material in favour of the esoteric, this could be 25cents or 10cents, 1 doller or more but not much more than that. This also is not obligatory, but is a convention.

A more important type of Zakat or giving, is the giving of ones knowledge and time toward the Jammat as well as larger society, i.e if you’re a legal professional and an Isma’ili needs help then you should try and make time to see them and share some of your knowledge. This is a type of giving that anyone can take part in, and thus is considered a greater form of Zakat.

Whatever is given is collected, and accounted for by the facilitators of the Khana; the Mukhi, and his treasurer the kamadiya.

The sums are then passed onto the Imam; who is free to do what he pleases with them, as we give him no stipulations.

Hope this helps

[anajmi]

Average,

There is no need to be play a bigger moron than you actually are. If you actually are a bigger moron than I imagine, then you probably won't understand my explanation either, so I better not waste my time.

[aftabm]

Thanks JawanMardan for the info, though i think the monies should not go to Imam, atleast the jakaat amount.

I have heard that there are few factions which have been separated from khoja community and are known as isna asjaari jamaat and sunni khojas.

Could you please enlighten me regarding this???

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Amerge
AS

If you ask Jawanmardan about his religion then you will get 'Taqiya' answers.

Go here or visit http://www.mostmerciful.com/ and scroll down to 'Ismailism' to see what this ex-Ismaili has to say about his religion of birth.

Out of 5 basic tenants of Islam these people follow only Zakat (How can you get rid of it and cut off your own source of Income?). Instead of collecting stipulated 2.5 percent of your disposable income these servants of Aga Khan are brain Washed to part 12.5%. Beside this they have various development schemes and Honor groups.

Visit these 2 links and you will come to know real religion of Nizari Ismalism.

Wasalaam
.

[jawanmardan]

Muslim first when people ask you about your faith do you point them to ex-Muslim sites?

Here are two ex-Muslim sites tell me if your agree with their position on Islam as ex Muslims, the first is from Ibn Warraq, and the second is from Ayan Hirsi Ali:

http://www.challenging-islam.org/articl ... uslims.htm

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhi ... index.html

Tell me Muslim first if the same rules apply to you in this regard? I await your reply with baited breath.

P.S just for the record I don’t agree with their position, just in case you try and use that red herring to weasel out.

[jawanmardan]

Thanks JawanMardan for the info, though i think the monies should not go to Imam, at least the jakaat amount.

Brother I respect your position and of course as someone who is not a member of our Jammat I understand your reservations regarding this matter.

However I would point out that the Imam has built one of the largest development agencies in the world, and has built hospitals, clinics, road, bridges, Schools, two Universities, a Museum in the west, a Pluralism centre so Islam and the west can understand one another, an Architectural award to highlight Islamic Architecture...and much, much more. His agencies are studied in the west as an example of how to do development work.

I have heard that there are few factions which have been separated from khoja community and are known as isna asjaari jamaat and sunni khojas.

This is true, the Sunni Khoja left mostly around the 1860s and are found almost entirely in Pakistan’s northern city of Lahore, and smaller communities exist in east Africa and Europe.

When last researched they followed forms of Sufism, they are small in number. They left as came believed that they we were always Sunni and never Shia Isma’ili.

A more serious split was when an Isma’ili Khoja who joined the Ithna Ashariya position, this also started around 1860’s and ended in around 1905.

They now number between 30,000 to 100,000; and are considered amongst the best organised Ithna Ashariyya, according to their current leader Ayatollah Sistani, in Iraq. They have a charity foundation similar to ours called the world federation, This is their website: http://www.world-federation.org/default.htm

Recently the Ithna Ashariyya Khoja were invited to attend the Isma’ili Centre in London, and discuss establishing a co-operative relationship, since we share a similar heritage, and they were welcomed as distant reletives.

[Muslim First]

.
Javanmardan

I have no dispute with you or your religion. I have problem when you portray your religion to be Islam.

I have no problem when somebody leaves Islam and then post information about Islam so long as they are accurate.

http://www.mostmerciful.com/ 's webmaster does not say bad things about Ismalies. He is just throwing light on their religious practices. He is also showing there are deceptive holes in lineage of Aga Khan, big enough for new jumbo Airbus to fly thru.

Please indicate to me which information at http://www.mostmerciful.com/ is incorrect?

Peace.
.

[Muslim First]

Jawanmardan

You still have not posted Batini meaning of Sura-Fateha.

Peace
.

[Muslim First]

.
Jawanmardan

Just Google Answering Ibn Waraq and you will find websites taking on Ibn Warq

Peace.

[jawanmardan]

Muslim First, You seem to imply that Ibn Warraq is not a legitimate source for the study of Islam, but a site that seeks to attack Isma’ilis is? That’s hypocrisy.

What is it about Surah Fathia that you think is relevant to this discussion? I don’t have in my possession every Batini interpretation; and I have not undertaken supervisory learning of my Tarqiah.

If you don’t see me as Muslim that’s your choice, I don’t happen to think your values and mindset are a terribly good example of Islam either, but I would advise you leave it to God to decide, who is and who is not Muslim.

[pardesi]

Salaam to all my muslim brothers on this board. And also to Muslim First and Anajmi. Its been a while I joined in any discussion on this board but I have regularly visited this site and have tried to keep in touch with what goes on here. It is always interesting, I might add.

I have been reading the discussion between my Ismaili brother Jawanmardan and those on this board who wanted to learn about our faith in all honesty, not necessarily to convert but nevertheless, to gain knowledge of other sects of Islam. Then I watched MF jump in, I guess he could not resist the temptation or the urge the gets every time a Nizari Ismaili joins in.

MF feels that Islamic buildings with “elaborate and expensive decorations is waste of money”. He also feels that a masjid with dome and minerates serve no useful purpose. I respect his opinion, though it will not be shared by much in the muslim world and this argument will not hold water against his own masters in Saudi. But it is an opinion and he is entitled to it. My suggestion would be to take this up with his other co-religionists in the Arab world before imposing it on others.

“You or your coreligionist are not threat to Islam.”

Thanks MF. That was very nice of you.

“Your Shahada is corrupted
You do not pray 5 times what is known as Namaaz
You do not have to go for Hajj
You do not fast during Ramadan”

Now how many times on this forum we have discussed this before? Before posting this crap of yours it would help if you go back to those discussions and read our answers. Anyone who calls a Shahada where Allah and his messanger’s name is taken as corrupt needs soul searching.

“You do not pray 5 times what is known as Namaaz”

Do all muslims pray 5 times? No! Does that mean they are not muslims? Talking about “Namaaz” please go to the following link. Your time will be well served arguing with that fellow.

http://www.quraniceducationandresearch. ... s_AS10.htm

You will find more questions there than you could answer to their satisfaction. I do not agree with most stuff on that website but I am not going to butt heads with them. I think you should seriously go after those people since they sound like a threat to Islam and as you have already mentioned we are not a threat to Islam.

A lot of Ismailis fast during Ramazan, so there, you are wrong again. Do you know what the penalty is for misleading and misrepresenting in Islam. You should be able to find that in the Quran. We have discussed this before, remember?

“Muslim is one who has given Shahada, Prays 5 times like prophet prayed, Gives Zakat, goes to Hajj and fasts in Ramadan.”

You just reduced the number of the Ummah by half (in my opinion).

“Out of 5 basic tenants of Islam these people follow only Zakat”
Thanks again MF. See you are beginning to see clearly.

“Instead of collecting stipulated 2.5 percent of your disposable income these servants of Aga Khan are brain Washed to part 12.5%.”

So is this why your best friend Akbar bhai left Ismaili fold. 2.5% sounds like a hell of a lot better deal than 12.5%. By the way, I have an honest question for you MF, what is the total “stipulation” in percentile terms that a muslim has to dish out, including zakat, ushr, sadqah, etc. Could you please direct me to the written source. I just want to read it for myself and try to understand on my own. Seriously, I am not tricking you. We Ismailis are not brainwashed into paying 12.5% of our income not the savings at the end of the year. We gladly pay that. No one forces us and no one keeps account of who makes how much and if they are honestly paying the 12.5% in the Jamatkhana. It seems that you have more problems with our Zakat going to my Imam than you have with us paying gladly. Show me one muslim in this world who does anywhere close to what my Imam does for mankind with the resources he has at his disposal.

“Beside this they have various development schemes and Honor groups.”

Thanks again for the compliment MF. You are getting better by the sentense. Jazakallah.

And by the way, I do not possess the batini meaning of Surah Fatiha either. So please do not come back with that request. Let it rest. Instead of pushing us for the batini meaning I think you will do yourself a big favour if you try to be atleast a modest muslim. You can start with using decent language which Allah and his messenger prefer.

One last question, do YOU pray like the prophet prayed. Go to the link above, those people don’t think so.

Shall we discuss something where everyone has an opportunity to participate in and learn something. I am getting tired already of this confrontational discussion.

Salaam.

[makberi]

jawanmardan n pardesi..thank u both for ur responses n insights into nizari ismaili faith(sorri for the mistake last time) but i dont understand one thing....how does one gain spiritually jus by looking at another person's picture....from wat i have learned the nizari believe that one gets a lotta sawab by jus looking at the face of the imam...allso bohris believe that one can get sawab by lookin at the dai's face...but how does that help spiritually....

[jawanmardan]

Makberi, Salaam bro.

We are not taught that looking at pictures of the Imam brings spiritual enlightenment, or sawab.

Most young Isma’ili would particularly reject that idea, because they have been taught about the faith. what is of importance is physically seeing the Imam, offering him our Bayat, and receiving his guidance.

Personally I have one picture of the Imam, which when I see reminds me that I have an Imam of the Time, present in the world, that he loves me, and all humanity, and that he is here because God loves me and all humanity.

I glance at it in the morning, and know that when I leave for work, I have a responsibility to help others, and do good, and that my time in this world must count for something, something positive.

I hope this helps.

[anajmi]

pardesi,

Welcome back. Now that you are here can we get back to where we were the last time you were here? You told me that my interpretation of the quran was twisted. I asked you to present your interpretation of the quran. From your above post to I realize that you do not have an interpretation of the quran. Do the Ismailis believe that the quran is the word of God or do they believe that it has been replaced by the Living Imam?

Can you give me the Ismaili interpretation of the ayah 2:282? Oops sorry, Ismailis do not have an interpretation of the quran. So who would you ask if you needed clarification regarding some ayah of the quran? Is it possible to communicate with the Living Imam regarding an ayah of the quran? Or have the Ismailis simply given up on the quran and don't care too much about what it says or not?

[jawanmardan]

I asked you to present your interpretation of the quran

[jawanmardan]

I asked you to present your interpretation of the quran

Anajami, let me enlighten you; as to our differences in interpretation;

We believe in community:
So we are active in building centres, which help bring community cohesion, and we work within society to help people come together, this for us is the essence of Islam.

Your interpretation of community cohesion:
Muslims should never have non Muslim friends; should never mix with the Kafir, and best of all suicide bombers killing anyone and everyone, women children, and babies, even fellow Muslims.

We Believe:
Women are equal to men, and have a fundamental right to representation on the boards of all religious buildings.

Mosques you attend:
Have women entering from the back door (if their lucky), with little or no representation; and produce Fathers /sons who kidnap their daughters/sisters for falling in love or marrying the wrong guy; and stab them to death.

We preserve culture,
Restoring buildings, preserving books for future generations, looking after museums so our children may learn from past mistakes; we think these things are important.

Your View on Culture:
To be destroyed if it does not conform, blow up an ancient Buddha in Afghanistan, or the nose off the Sphinx in Cairo. All images must be wiped out, paintings, sculptures, instruments.

We don’t see poverty as a choice:
So we should help give them a way out, employment though finance, and job creation schemes, education, building schools and universities; to serve the needs of the poor. Clinics, and hospitals to care for their health.

Your view on poverty:
In Saudi Arabia, you chop off limbs of people who are literally digging in rubbish dumps for food, and steal out of desperation, and poverty. Same is true for Afghanistan, Gulf states etc.

We respect the Ummah:
We work to help all Muslims of any path, and help everyone and anyone. We look after each other in our Jammat and the Ummah.

Your view on the Ummah:
Spend billions of Saudi and gulf state money on military equipment to fight each other, and on the same firms who supply weapons to Israeil; causing suffering to Palestinians, and to impoverished Saudi citizens. A UAE women is not permitted to marry a non citizen even if their Muslim and if their poor and non Arab, risks loosing her citizenship. After all fellow south Asian Muslims are slave labour for work only and can be treated as such.

Now these folks, read the same religious books you read, using the same interpretation you use. Preserving the same rituals and practices just as diligently as you.

I hope this has enlightened you about the difference between your Interpretation, and ours.

Salaam.

[pardesi]

Thanks Anajmi for the warm welcome. I tried to go back to my previous posts to see where I said that your interpretation of the Quran is corrupted. I couldn't find it. Besides, your interpretation could not be corrupted because you dont have one of your own. You rely on other's interpretation.

I remember mentioning once that Quran is open to individual interpretation that means one can interpret the meanings of Quran according to their knowledge and ability and if they qualify. There is no set criteria for qualification in the Quran as to who can interpret Quran and who couldn't. Please correct me if I am wrong. Although Allah mentions "people of knowledge" in the Quran so I assume that people well versed in Quranic knowledge are qualified enough to do so. Now we can argue all eternity about who is qualified and who isn't but that would not serve any purpose.

As for the "Ismaili interpretation" of 2:282 let me ask you, is there a distinct Sunni interpretation? Oh sorry, you just pick and choose out of many, according to what suits your purpose, right? Do you actually need any interpretation for that Ayah. Its meanings are very clear. I assume that was a trick question. So shoot.

The Aga Khan is not directly accessible all the time. But if one has a question, I believe he can be contacted through proper channels. Now I know you will have a problem with that also. Who cares!

Please stop acting like the All Knower, you are not. A hypocrite like you is not worth discussing anything with. You just come here to prove yourself right and others wrong. You could not even donate $10.00 to a just cause to save a life of a fellow muslim (child) just because he followed the Ismaili tariqa. There is nothing lower than that in my opinion. He died, by the way, of his illness couple of months later. Your $ could not have saved him anyway but you lost an opportunity to collect reward for hereafter. And here you are lecturing others on Islam. How pathetic. I am sure even Allah was shaking His head at that. Oops I just committed a shirk. Sorry. He does not need a Head. But there is mention of "Lisanullah", "Yadullah", "Ainullah". Thats a different subject though. (No fun intended).

Before I end, did you go to the link in my previous post? I think your time is needed to defend Islam over there and not on this site.

May peace of Allah be on you. I pray for forgiveness for all. Ameen

[Muslim First]

.
JM wrote:

Personally I have one picture of the Imam, which when I see reminds me that I have an Imam of the Time, present in the world, that he loves me, and all humanity, and that he is here because God loves me and all humanity.

he is here because God loves me and all humanity.

Does not make sense:

He is here because his father and mother mated he is result of it. Whether Imam is here or not God is thought to love all his children and Humanity.

I glance at it in the morning, and know that when I leave for work, I have a responsibility to help others, and do well, and that my time in this world must count for something, something positive.

I do not have to glance at any picture to remind me that “I have a responsibility to help others, and do well, and that my time in this world must count for something,

If you are Muslim then it is natural for you. But if you are Nizari Ismaili then you need a glance at HI's picture to remind you.
.

[jawanmardan]

Excerpt from a Speech By Imam Shah Karim Al-Husayni:

….{verse of the Qu’ran} affirms the unity of the human race, as expressed in the Holy Qu'ran, where God, as revealed through the Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace be upon him, says the following:

“O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from the twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women.” (4:1)

This remarkable verse speaks both of the inherent diversity of mankind -- the “multitude” -- and of the unity of mankind -- the “single soul created by a single Creator” -- a spiritual legacy which distinguishes the human race from all other forms of life.

I cite Hazrat Ali's words so that you may understand the spirit in which I have attempted to fulfill the mandate left to me as the 49th hereditary [Ismaili] Imam I quote:

“No belief is like modesty and patience, no attainment is like humility, no honour is like knowledge, no power is like forbearance, and no support is more reliable than consultation.”

Hazrat Ali's regard for knowledge reinforces the compatibility of faith and the world. And his respect for consultation is, in my view, a commitment to tolerant and open-hearted democratic processes.

These Islamic ideals, of course, have also been emphasized by other great religions. Despite the long history of religious conflict, there is a long counter-history of religious focus on tolerance as a central virtue -- on welcoming the stranger and loving one's neighbour.

It is striking to me how many modern thinkers are still disposed to link tolerance with secularism -- and religion with intolerance. In their eyes -- and often in the public's eyes I fear -- religion is seen as part of the problem and not part of the solution.

The spiritual roots of tolerance include, it seems to me, a respect for individual conscience -- seen as a Gift of God -- as well as a posture of religious humility before the Divine. It is by accepting our human limits that we can come to see The Other as a fellow seeker of truth -- and to find common ground in our common quest.

Let me emphasize again, however, that spirituality should not become a way of escaping from the world but rather a way of more actively engaging in it.

Even in the poorest and most isolated communities, we have found that decades, if not centuries, of angry conflict can be turned around by giving people reasons to work together toward a better future -- in other words, by giving them reasons to hope. And when hope takes root, then a new level of tolerance is possible, though it may have been unknown for years, and years, and years.

Tolerance which grows out of hope is more than a negative virtue -- more than a convenient way to ease sectarian tensions or foster social stability -- more than a sense of forbearance when the views of others clash with our own. Instead, seen not as a pallid religious compromise but as a sacred religious imperative, tolerance can become a powerful, positive force, one which allows all of us to expand our horizons -- and enrich our lives.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by anajmi:
[QB]pardesi,

Welcome back. Now that you are here can we get back to where we were the last time you were here?QB]

The last time I remember you were trying to save your face on the subject of Interest on your car loan under "Wajibaat" and also trying to dodge a donation request for an Ismaili muslim. Thats all I remember about you.

[jawanmardan]

In reference to the Imam, I was explaining how I viewed the Imamate, and His here in your eyes because of mating. I see it as a far more abstract concept.

He is here because his father and mother mated he is result of it. Whether Imam is here or not God is thought to love all his children and Humanity.

Was the prophet accidental, or Moses, or Ali, all here because of what goes on, on the discovery channel?

I do not have to glance at any picture to remind me that “I have a responsibility to help others, and do well, and that my time in this world must count for something,

If you are Muslim then it is natural for you. But if you are Nizari Ismaili then you need a glance at HI's picture to remind you.

I don’t have to look at a picture of my mother to remind me I have her, but perhaps you condemn all portraiture, paintings, photography. I don’t have a clue.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.

He is here because his father and mother mated he is result of it.

That was really uncalled for. You know what you meant by that. Would you say the same for my beloved Prophet Mohammad. I thought he was the mercy of Allah to mankind. Did I miss something or did you try to mislead.

So why pray 5 times every day if you are already a muslim and do not need to be reminded about your duty. So why fast during Ramazan if you do not need reminded about suffering of others. My Imam's picture is nothing but a symbolic value. Do you not have your loved ones picture at home. If its against Sharia then I have another question for you. In the book of Ahadith there is mention of the Prophet being shown the picture of Aisha at more than one occassion. Which Sharia do you believe in?

May God have mercy on your soul.

[Muslim First]

Pardesi wrote

Quran is open to individual interpretation that means one can interpret the meanings of Quran according to their knowledge and ability and if they qualify. There is no set criteria for qualification in the Quran as to who can interpret Quran and who couldn't.

We are not interested in any other expert except
this br. Samshu's 'Mowla', the Bolta Quran one who has complete Qur'an. I believe he is pardeshi's and JM's Mowla too.

I repeat Shamsu's claim:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shamsu
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 616

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:15 pm Post subject: YES BUT NO

-------------------------------------------------

THE QURAN WHICH IS WITH MY MOWLA IS COMPLETE

THE BOOK THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD CALLS THE QURAN IS NOT.

IN FACT IMAM SMS FARMANS MENTION THAT THERE WERE THINGS TAKENOUT AND INSERTED. ALSO THINGS FROM THE FRONT WERE PUT BEHIND AND THINGS FROM BEHIND IN FRONT.

IMAM SMS CALLS IT USMANS KITAB.

I THINK THE FARMAN IS FARMAN NUMBER 20 OR 21 IN KIM PART 1 FIRST EDITION.

THE EDITIONS OF KIM PART 1 AFTER SECOND WORLD WAR DO NOT HAVE CERTAIN SENTENCES IN THEM ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

SHAMS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

[Muslim First]

So why pray 5 times every day if you are already a muslim and do not need to be reminded about your duty. So why fast during Ramazan

If you are Muslim then it is 'Fird' on you to pray five times, on specified times and as taught to prophet by Gibreal.

Was there picuter of Aisha? Which camara it was made of? Was it a paining, a on film or digital picture. What are you talking?
.

[pardesi]

Just a small correction.

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.
He is here because his father and mother mated he is result of it.

That was really uncalled for. You know what you meant by that. Would you say the same for my beloved Prophet Mohammad. I thought he was the mercy of Allah to mankind. Did I miss something or did you try to mislead.

If you are Muslim then it is natural for you. But if you are Nizari Ismaili then you need a glance at HI's picture to remind you.

[/b]

So why pray 5 times every day if you are already a muslim and do not need to be reminded about your duty. So why fast during Ramazan if you do not need reminded about suffering of others. My Imam's picture is nothing but a symbolic value. Do you not have your loved ones picture at home. If its against Sharia then I have another question for you. In the book of Ahadith there is mention of the Prophet being shown the picture of Aisha at more than one occassion. Which Sharia do you believe in?

May God have mercy on your soul.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Muslim First:

"Was there picuter of Aisha? Which camara it was made of? Was it a paining, a on film or digital picture. What are you talking?"

Tells me how much you know about Ahadith. I did not come up with that. Take it up with Bukhari or do you need his email address. Read Sahih Bukhari, its there.

[jawanmardan]

Muslim First; get off it, I know for a fact that Isma’ili official doctrine does not teach that the Qu’ran is either incomplete or corrupted.

Produce the evidence from our own books; not the postings of someone who gives no references. Other than vague postings.

Read Nasir Khusrows "Knowledge and Liberation"; available on Amazon.

Which explains the role of the Imam and the Qu’ran, and their relationship in detail. Nowhere does it mention it’s been corrupted.

[jawanmardan]

Muslim First study your pure version of Islam carefully for references to pictures, I’m certain Purdesi is quite correct.

I believe it may be after the part where you people accuse the holy Prophet (saw) of being an arsonist. Call for the confinement and stoning of women, and the removal of limbs.

And just before the part about blowing civilians up, to reform Islam. Or is it after, I get confused….

I suggest you consult your scholars in the wonderfully advanced examples of your pure Islam the Islamic states, of Sudan and Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan…if the marvellous mullah Omar is still fighting the good fight on his motorcycle.

Do let us know if you get a reply…won’t you?