Bro Insaaf,
Islam teaches us to be friendly and kind with everyone , even they are not believers.
Whereas Bohras take pride in cursing muslims , the biggest faith of Islam on earth.
Its deep rooted in the minds of ordinary bohras to hate Muslims.
I guess this is just a slap on the face of Islam.
They are runing the very basic teaching of brotherhood!
3 "Laanatti"
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
That is very interesting and very similar to Hindu value system. A Baniya (Vaishya) worships Godess Laxmi more than any other dieties in expectation of wealth while a North Indian Brahmin worships Saraswati and Brahma and idealises Parshuram so that he gets both valour and knowledge and so that he can fight injustice and other evils in the world (theoratically atleast).Originally posted by Hyderabadi:
There are people who Pray Allah to gain His Favors, this is the worship of traders; while there are some who worship Him to keep themselves free from His Wrath, this is the worship of slaves; a few who obey Him out' of their sense of gratitude and obligations, this is the worship of free and noble men.
Bohras are largely converted from Gujrati Brahmins (Nagar brahmins) but they show all traits of Baniyas (vaishya). They not only worship Burhanuddin in expectation of material gains but their visits to mausoleums, fasting in ramazan and even namaz is offered while expecting gains in their trade/career.
For a Bohra, success means just acquisition of wealth and all other social securities. Intellectual or spiritual progress doesn't mean anything to the members of this community. When a bohra gladly asserts that under the leadership of Burhanuddin they have achieved "everything", he actually means that the petty traders have now got more money in their face and now there are more engineers, doctors, CAs and MBAs in the community (all brainwashed though). He is blissfully unaware of the fact that bohras have regressed in the abyss of spiritual and intellectual depravity in the past 20-30 years or so. They have lost their capability to think independently, their courage and above all - their SOUL. The last two dais - burhanuddin and taher saifuddin proved to be a curse for the community, turning them into a soulless and faceless bunch of sheep.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
I guess I am receiving the most reward from Allah cause I pray to gain his favors and to keep myself free from his wrath, and out of my sense of gratitude and obligations. So I guess I am a trader, a slave and a free and noble man.
That takes me out of the equation.
Now according to Hazrat Ali, are there traders who would be ok with the wrath of Allah as long as they have his favors? or are there free and noble men who wouldn't mind the wrath of Allah and do not need his favors? or are there those that want to be saved from the wrath of Allah but do not need his favors and do not want to be free and noble??
That takes me out of the equation.
Now according to Hazrat Ali, are there traders who would be ok with the wrath of Allah as long as they have his favors? or are there free and noble men who wouldn't mind the wrath of Allah and do not need his favors? or are there those that want to be saved from the wrath of Allah but do not need his favors and do not want to be free and noble??
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
I think the 3 classifications are out of question.
If you have true imaan , it means you are submitting yourself to Allah.
Once you submit yourself,automatically you cling to all 3,You are thankful for his endless bounties, you fear his wrath and you ask whatever you wish for in this world.
Islam is a way of leading the entire life rather than being called a religion!
If you have true imaan , it means you are submitting yourself to Allah.
Once you submit yourself,automatically you cling to all 3,You are thankful for his endless bounties, you fear his wrath and you ask whatever you wish for in this world.
Islam is a way of leading the entire life rather than being called a religion!
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Now according to Hazrat Ali, are there traders who would be ok with the wrath of Allah as long as they have his favors? or are there free and noble men who wouldn't mind the wrath of Allah and do not need his favors? or are there those that want to be saved from the wrath of Allah but do not need his favors and do not want to be free and noble??
It requires a little insight and understanding to get the essence of the saying.
Literal and out of context interpretations has already taken a heavy toll in the likes of Ummayads, Abbasids,Ottomans, Talibans and Al Quedas.
It requires a little insight and understanding to get the essence of the saying.
Literal and out of context interpretations has already taken a heavy toll in the likes of Ummayads, Abbasids,Ottomans, Talibans and Al Quedas.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Alislam,
I am sure in your post you explained the context and the non-literal meaning of the quote from Hazrat Ali. I am afraid I didn't see it though!!
I am sure in your post you explained the context and the non-literal meaning of the quote from Hazrat Ali. I am afraid I didn't see it though!!
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Here is what I think Ali meant.
“There are people who Pray Allah to gain His Favors, this is the worship of traders; while there are some who worship Him to keep themselves free from His Wrath, this is the worship of slaves; a few who obey Him out' of their sense of gratitude and obligations, this is the worship of free and noble men.â€
“There are people who Pray Allah to gain His Favors, this is the worship of traders; while there are some who worship Him to keep themselves free from His Wrath, this is the worship of slaves; a few who obey Him out' of their sense of gratitude and obligations, this is the worship of free and noble men.â€
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
I am sure in your post you explained the context and the non-literal meaning of the quote from Hazrat Ali. I am afraid I didn't see it though!!
Porous was able to see it and you could not.
See,i told you,it requires a little understanding to get the essence of the Saying.
Porous was able to see it and you could not.
See,i told you,it requires a little understanding to get the essence of the Saying.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Alislam,
Considering the fact that porus does not believe in that which Hazrat Ali believes in your post has been analysed by the perfect person.
Considering the fact that porus does not believe in that which Hazrat Ali believes in your post has been analysed by the perfect person.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Alislam,
Let me repost that.
Considering the fact that porus does not believe in that which Hazrat Ali believes in, your post has been analysed by the perfect person.
Let me repost that.
Considering the fact that porus does not believe in that which Hazrat Ali believes in, your post has been analysed by the perfect person.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Did you know that when Hazrat Ali stood for namaz, he used to shiver? When asked why, he said he was afraid to make a mistake.
Did you know that the prophet used to say Istighfar more than 70 times everyday?
Now analyse that in the context in which porus has presented his analysis.
002.002
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
002.024
YUSUFALI: But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
002.040
YUSUFALI: O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
002.041
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
002.283
YUSUFALI: If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, Let the trustee (Faithfully) discharge His trust, and let him fear his Lord. Conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it,- His heart is tainted with sin. And Allah Knoweth all that ye do.
003.050
YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
003.102
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.
003.123
YUSUFALI: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
002.112
YUSUFALI: Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
002.262
YUSUFALI: Those who spend their substance in the cause of Allah, and follow not up their gifts with reminders of their generosity or with injury,-for them their reward is with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Allah asks you to believe in him not so that you can prove yourself to be a noble person, but so that you can claim the ultimate reward that Allah has created for you in the hereafter.
I would really want to see a person reject heaven in the hereafter because he was worshipping Allah just because he was noble!!
Did you know that the prophet used to say Istighfar more than 70 times everyday?
Now analyse that in the context in which porus has presented his analysis.
002.002
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
002.024
YUSUFALI: But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
002.040
YUSUFALI: O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
002.041
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
002.283
YUSUFALI: If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, Let the trustee (Faithfully) discharge His trust, and let him fear his Lord. Conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it,- His heart is tainted with sin. And Allah Knoweth all that ye do.
003.050
YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
003.102
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.
003.123
YUSUFALI: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
002.112
YUSUFALI: Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
002.262
YUSUFALI: Those who spend their substance in the cause of Allah, and follow not up their gifts with reminders of their generosity or with injury,-for them their reward is with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Allah asks you to believe in him not so that you can prove yourself to be a noble person, but so that you can claim the ultimate reward that Allah has created for you in the hereafter.
I would really want to see a person reject heaven in the hereafter because he was worshipping Allah just because he was noble!!
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
On re-reading one particular ayah stands out -
003.123
YUSUFALI: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.
Simply put it means that you can't even show your gratitude if you do not fear Allah!!
Good luck to the noble men who do not fear the wrath of Allah!!
003.123
YUSUFALI: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.
Simply put it means that you can't even show your gratitude if you do not fear Allah!!
Good luck to the noble men who do not fear the wrath of Allah!!
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Some interesting hadith along the same lines
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 19:
Narrated 'Aisha:
Whenever Allah's Apostle ordered the Muslims to do something, he used to order them deeds which were easy for them to do, (according to their strength endurance). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you. Allah has forgiven your past and future sins." So Allah's Apostle became angry and it was apparent on his face. He said, "I am the most Allah fearing, and know Allah better than all of you do."
Narrated Al-Bara 'bin 'Azib:
The Prophet said to me, "Whenever you go to bed perform ablution like that for the prayer, lie or your right side and say, "Allahumma aslamtu wajhi ilaika, wa fauwadtu amri ilaika, wa alja'tu Zahri ilaika raghbatan wa rahbatan ilaika. La Malja' wa la manja minka illa ilaika. Allahumma amantu bikitabika-l-ladhi anzalta wa bina-biyika-l ladhi arsalta" (O Allah! I surrender to You and entrust all my affairs to You and depend upon You for Your Blessings both with hope and fear of You. There is no fleeing from You, and there is no place of protection and safety except with You O Allah! I believe in Your Book (the Qur'an) which You have revealed and in Your Prophet (Muhammad) whom You have sent). Then if you die on that very night, you will die with faith (i.e. or the religion of Islam). Let the aforesaid words be your last utterance (before sleep)." I repeated it before the Prophet and when I reached "Allahumma amantu bikitabika-l-ladhi anzalta (O Allah I believe in Your Book which You have revealed)." I said, "Wa-rasulika (and your Apostle)." The Prophet said, "No, (but say): 'Wanabiyika-l-ladhi arsalta (Your Prophet whom You have sent), instead."
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 343:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet passed by a woman who was sitting and weeping beside a grave and said to her, "Fear Allah and be patient."
Volume 1, Book 1, Number 1:
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for."
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 621:
Narrated Abu Salama bin 'Abdur Rahman:
Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'The reward of a prayer in congregation is twenty five times greater than that of a prayer offered by a person alone. The angels of the night and the angels of the day gather at the time of Fajr prayer.' " Abu Huraira then added, "Recite the Holy Book if you wish, for "Indeed, the recitation of the Qur'an in the early dawn (Fajr prayer) is ever witnessed." (17.18).
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The reward of the congregational prayer is twenty seven times greater (than that of the prayer offered by a person alone).
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 623:
Narrated Abu Musa:
The Prophet said, "The people who get tremendous reward for the prayer are those who are farthest away (from the mosque) and then those who are next farthest and so on. Similarly one who waits to pray with the Imam has greater reward than one who prays and goes to bed. "
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 624:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was going on a way, he saw a thorny branch and removed it from the way and Allah became pleased by his action and forgave him for that." Then the Prophet said, "Five are martyrs: One who dies of plague, one who dies of an abdominal disease, one who dies of drowning, one who is buried alive (and) dies and one who is killed in Allah's cause." (The Prophet further said, "If the people knew the reward for pronouncing the Adhan and for standing in the first row (in the congregational prayer) and found no other way to get it except by drawing lots they would do so, and if they knew the reward of offering the Zuhr prayer early (in its stated time), they would race for it and they knew the reward for 'Isha' and Fajr prayers in congregation, they would attend them even if they were to crawl')
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 466:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The prayer offered in congregation is twenty five times more superior (in reward) to the prayer offered alone in one's house or in a business center, because if one performs ablution and does it perfectly, and then proceeds to the mosque with the sole intention of praying, then for each step which he takes towards the mosque, Allah upgrades him a degree in reward and (forgives) crosses out one sin till he enters the mosque. When he enters the mosque he is considered in prayer as long as he is waiting for the prayer and the angels keep on asking for Allah's forgiveness for him and they keep on saying: 'O Allah! Be Merciful to him, O Allah! Forgive him, as long as he keeps on sitting at his praying place and does not pass wind. (See Hadith No. 620).
[As far the rewards are concerned, I am sure none of them apply to noble men cause they are not looking for any!!]
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 19:
Narrated 'Aisha:
Whenever Allah's Apostle ordered the Muslims to do something, he used to order them deeds which were easy for them to do, (according to their strength endurance). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you. Allah has forgiven your past and future sins." So Allah's Apostle became angry and it was apparent on his face. He said, "I am the most Allah fearing, and know Allah better than all of you do."
Narrated Al-Bara 'bin 'Azib:
The Prophet said to me, "Whenever you go to bed perform ablution like that for the prayer, lie or your right side and say, "Allahumma aslamtu wajhi ilaika, wa fauwadtu amri ilaika, wa alja'tu Zahri ilaika raghbatan wa rahbatan ilaika. La Malja' wa la manja minka illa ilaika. Allahumma amantu bikitabika-l-ladhi anzalta wa bina-biyika-l ladhi arsalta" (O Allah! I surrender to You and entrust all my affairs to You and depend upon You for Your Blessings both with hope and fear of You. There is no fleeing from You, and there is no place of protection and safety except with You O Allah! I believe in Your Book (the Qur'an) which You have revealed and in Your Prophet (Muhammad) whom You have sent). Then if you die on that very night, you will die with faith (i.e. or the religion of Islam). Let the aforesaid words be your last utterance (before sleep)." I repeated it before the Prophet and when I reached "Allahumma amantu bikitabika-l-ladhi anzalta (O Allah I believe in Your Book which You have revealed)." I said, "Wa-rasulika (and your Apostle)." The Prophet said, "No, (but say): 'Wanabiyika-l-ladhi arsalta (Your Prophet whom You have sent), instead."
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 343:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet passed by a woman who was sitting and weeping beside a grave and said to her, "Fear Allah and be patient."
Volume 1, Book 1, Number 1:
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for."
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 621:
Narrated Abu Salama bin 'Abdur Rahman:
Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'The reward of a prayer in congregation is twenty five times greater than that of a prayer offered by a person alone. The angels of the night and the angels of the day gather at the time of Fajr prayer.' " Abu Huraira then added, "Recite the Holy Book if you wish, for "Indeed, the recitation of the Qur'an in the early dawn (Fajr prayer) is ever witnessed." (17.18).
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The reward of the congregational prayer is twenty seven times greater (than that of the prayer offered by a person alone).
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 623:
Narrated Abu Musa:
The Prophet said, "The people who get tremendous reward for the prayer are those who are farthest away (from the mosque) and then those who are next farthest and so on. Similarly one who waits to pray with the Imam has greater reward than one who prays and goes to bed. "
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 624:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was going on a way, he saw a thorny branch and removed it from the way and Allah became pleased by his action and forgave him for that." Then the Prophet said, "Five are martyrs: One who dies of plague, one who dies of an abdominal disease, one who dies of drowning, one who is buried alive (and) dies and one who is killed in Allah's cause." (The Prophet further said, "If the people knew the reward for pronouncing the Adhan and for standing in the first row (in the congregational prayer) and found no other way to get it except by drawing lots they would do so, and if they knew the reward of offering the Zuhr prayer early (in its stated time), they would race for it and they knew the reward for 'Isha' and Fajr prayers in congregation, they would attend them even if they were to crawl')
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 466:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The prayer offered in congregation is twenty five times more superior (in reward) to the prayer offered alone in one's house or in a business center, because if one performs ablution and does it perfectly, and then proceeds to the mosque with the sole intention of praying, then for each step which he takes towards the mosque, Allah upgrades him a degree in reward and (forgives) crosses out one sin till he enters the mosque. When he enters the mosque he is considered in prayer as long as he is waiting for the prayer and the angels keep on asking for Allah's forgiveness for him and they keep on saying: 'O Allah! Be Merciful to him, O Allah! Forgive him, as long as he keeps on sitting at his praying place and does not pass wind. (See Hadith No. 620).
[As far the rewards are concerned, I am sure none of them apply to noble men cause they are not looking for any!!]
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Anajmi would have you believe he is quoting the Quran when in fact he quotes from Yusufali translation. That translation is suspect now because it is completely adulterated by Wahabis.
Ayat 3:123 will serve as an example of gross misinterpretation by Yusufali translation. The ayat uses the word taqwa (fa-ttaqullaha). Now taqwa in Quranic context means piety. Who are muttaqun? Those who fear God or those who love God? Only love will induce piety. Fear is a negative emotion totally inappropriate for Allah. Allah is not in this for a protection racket. That is a Wahabi concept. You do not submit Out of fear by through taqwa.
I do not recommend any translation but I definitely do not recommend the Yusufali translation which is widely available on the net. It is best to learn Arabic yourself.
Ayat 3:123 will serve as an example of gross misinterpretation by Yusufali translation. The ayat uses the word taqwa (fa-ttaqullaha). Now taqwa in Quranic context means piety. Who are muttaqun? Those who fear God or those who love God? Only love will induce piety. Fear is a negative emotion totally inappropriate for Allah. Allah is not in this for a protection racket. That is a Wahabi concept. You do not submit Out of fear by through taqwa.
I do not recommend any translation but I definitely do not recommend the Yusufali translation which is widely available on the net. It is best to learn Arabic yourself.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Had the Wahabis understood the difference between 'Love' and 'Fear'to attain taqwa, things would have been different.
They would not have instill 'fear', been tolerant towards other muslims and non-muslims and world would have been a better place.
They would not have instill 'fear', been tolerant towards other muslims and non-muslims and world would have been a better place.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Had the Wahabis understood the difference between 'Love' and 'Fear'to attain taqwa, things would have been different.
They would not have instill 'fear', been tolerant towards other muslims and non-muslims and world would have been a better place.
They would not have instill 'fear', been tolerant towards other muslims and non-muslims and world would have been a better place.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
.
From The Causes of Disunity
taqwa
This leads us to a very important question, what is taqwa? Sayyiduna Ali defined taqwa as being the ‘fear of Jaleel (Allah), acting upon the tanzeel (Quran), being content with qaleel (little), and preparing for the day of raheel (journeying from this world). Therefore, in the words of Sayyiduna Ali taqwa consists of the following four things which if embedded in the character of a Muslim would include him in the group of muttaqeen:
1. The fear of Allah.
2. Acting upon the Quran. This would mean being observant of all the laws of the Quran and the ahadeeth, and acting upon the Shariah in its entirety.
3. Being content with whatever Allah has decreed as one’s share in life, even though it may apparently be meagre.
4. Preparing properly for death and the ensuing journey of the Hereafter.
So far it has been good discussion. Let us try and keep it out of sectarian fight.
Wasalaam
.
From The Causes of Disunity
taqwa
This leads us to a very important question, what is taqwa? Sayyiduna Ali defined taqwa as being the ‘fear of Jaleel (Allah), acting upon the tanzeel (Quran), being content with qaleel (little), and preparing for the day of raheel (journeying from this world). Therefore, in the words of Sayyiduna Ali taqwa consists of the following four things which if embedded in the character of a Muslim would include him in the group of muttaqeen:
1. The fear of Allah.
2. Acting upon the Quran. This would mean being observant of all the laws of the Quran and the ahadeeth, and acting upon the Shariah in its entirety.
3. Being content with whatever Allah has decreed as one’s share in life, even though it may apparently be meagre.
4. Preparing properly for death and the ensuing journey of the Hereafter.
So far it has been good discussion. Let us try and keep it out of sectarian fight.
Wasalaam
.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Muslim First,
A.S.
What do you understand by the word 'fear'? What happens to you when you are afraid? Please describe the emotion in relation to your bodily symptoms and 'time' and then relate it to the how that applies to your relationship with God.
Thank you.
(Please do not quote any authority. I would like your personal opinion.)
A.S.
What do you understand by the word 'fear'? What happens to you when you are afraid? Please describe the emotion in relation to your bodily symptoms and 'time' and then relate it to the how that applies to your relationship with God.
Thank you.
(Please do not quote any authority. I would like your personal opinion.)
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
.
Br.Porus
AS
Personally fear is on two different plains. Fear from authority and other fear from people I respect and worship (Allah).
I fear crossing authority because it has consequences.
I fear displeasing people I respect and that keep me more balanced, respectful.
.
Br.Porus
AS
Personally fear is on two different plains. Fear from authority and other fear from people I respect and worship (Allah).
I fear crossing authority because it has consequences.
I fear displeasing people I respect and that keep me more balanced, respectful.
.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
MF,
What you described as fear is not fear at all. You imagine the consequence of violating authority or displeasing people. You say that it is fear that keeps you from taking these actions.
However, fear is really a bodily reaction to real or percieved danger. This reaction is immediate and felt in the moment without any conceptual pre-thinking. Its physiological reaction is a rush of adrenalin into your blood stream. This in turn causes a "fight or flight" reaction. You either fight the danger or flee from it.
You can also feel the fear if you imagine some calamity. But you always feel it in the moment. Your feelings are always in the now. And they are always unpleasant.
Would it not be better to say that it is your love and respect for authority and other people that makes you behave the way you do?
Fear takes you away from from object of fear while love draws you towards it. So fear of Allah will take you away from Allah and his love will draw you towards him.
PLease think of Allah and then ask are you really afraid of him?
What you described as fear is not fear at all. You imagine the consequence of violating authority or displeasing people. You say that it is fear that keeps you from taking these actions.
However, fear is really a bodily reaction to real or percieved danger. This reaction is immediate and felt in the moment without any conceptual pre-thinking. Its physiological reaction is a rush of adrenalin into your blood stream. This in turn causes a "fight or flight" reaction. You either fight the danger or flee from it.
You can also feel the fear if you imagine some calamity. But you always feel it in the moment. Your feelings are always in the now. And they are always unpleasant.
Would it not be better to say that it is your love and respect for authority and other people that makes you behave the way you do?
Fear takes you away from from object of fear while love draws you towards it. So fear of Allah will take you away from Allah and his love will draw you towards him.
PLease think of Allah and then ask are you really afraid of him?
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Planning and acting to avoid unpleasant consequences for the future is not caused by fear. You know the consequence of not submitting your tax return on time. Yet, if you violate the law, you will suffer consequence and may feel the fear of being punished. That is anxiety. It is the imagination that results in bodily reaction in the moment. You then avoid or hide from the authority since you cannot fight it. This is useless and the only antidote is to make reparation to eliminate fear. Then you can approach the authority again without fear.
So again, fear takes you away from authority. Respect draws you towards it.
So again, fear takes you away from authority. Respect draws you towards it.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
" Fear takes you away from from object of fear while love draws you towards it. So fear of Allah will take you away from Allah and his love will draw you towards him. "
Excellent reasoning Porous.
It could not have been said better than this.
Excellent reasoning Porous.
It could not have been said better than this.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
porus,
Anyway,
Here are some other authors.
002.040
PICKTHAL: O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.
SHAKIR: O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
002.150
PICKTHAL: Whencesoever thou comest forth turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship; and wheresoever ye may be (O Muslims) turn your faces toward it (when ye pray) so that men may have no argument against you, save such of them as do injustice - Fear them not, but fear Me! - and so that I may complete My grace upon you, and that ye may be guided.
SHAKIR: And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course.
And I can go on and on and on. But of course we are not supposed to read translations.
There was a lot of discussion about the meaning of fear. I don't think I care.
What does Allah mean when he says "fear me". Maybe he means fear my punishment. Cause you cannot fear an entity just by itself (unless of course you are phobic and then you could argue that too) but what it can do to you. You could be afraid of a car (running over you) or a knife (going into you) or a pair of scissors (cutting off bodily parts) etc. etc.
So bottom line, whether you fear Allah or not, definitely fear his wrath!!
Now you are talking like the Syedna!!I do not recommend any translation but I definitely do not recommend the Yusufali translation which is widely available on the net. It is best to learn Arabic yourself.
Anyway,
Here are some other authors.
002.040
PICKTHAL: O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.
SHAKIR: O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
002.150
PICKTHAL: Whencesoever thou comest forth turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship; and wheresoever ye may be (O Muslims) turn your faces toward it (when ye pray) so that men may have no argument against you, save such of them as do injustice - Fear them not, but fear Me! - and so that I may complete My grace upon you, and that ye may be guided.
SHAKIR: And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course.
And I can go on and on and on. But of course we are not supposed to read translations.
There was a lot of discussion about the meaning of fear. I don't think I care.
What does Allah mean when he says "fear me". Maybe he means fear my punishment. Cause you cannot fear an entity just by itself (unless of course you are phobic and then you could argue that too) but what it can do to you. You could be afraid of a car (running over you) or a knife (going into you) or a pair of scissors (cutting off bodily parts) etc. etc.
So bottom line, whether you fear Allah or not, definitely fear his wrath!!
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Just occured to me, when the prophet first started relaying his message, he started with scaring people of hell fire and then the bounties of heaven and then after a few years came namaz and roza and zakat and hajj.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Anajmi,
Please learn Arabic. Translations are just that. Translations. They help but once you understand Quran's message, then you will not fear Allah at all but love him.
Once you progress in your understanding of the message, you will know why there is heaven and hell, good and evil etc. You will then love both polarities equally.
Let me quote words from a qawwali in the old Bollywood movie, Barsaat ki Raat:
Allaah aur Rasool ka faramaan ishq hai
yaane Hadith ishq hai, qQran ishq hai
Gautam ka aur Masih ka armaan ishq hai
ye kaa-e-naat, jism, aur jaan ishq hai
ishq saramad, ishq hii mansoor hai
ishq Musa, ishq koh\-e\-noor hai
Khaak ko boot, aur boot ko devataa kartaa hai ishq
intahaa ye hai ke ba.nde ko Kudaa kartaa hai ishq
*********
Allah is Love. Wahabi God is a God of vengeance. He only is a figment of Wahabi's imagination.
Please learn Arabic. Translations are just that. Translations. They help but once you understand Quran's message, then you will not fear Allah at all but love him.
Once you progress in your understanding of the message, you will know why there is heaven and hell, good and evil etc. You will then love both polarities equally.
Let me quote words from a qawwali in the old Bollywood movie, Barsaat ki Raat:
Allaah aur Rasool ka faramaan ishq hai
yaane Hadith ishq hai, qQran ishq hai
Gautam ka aur Masih ka armaan ishq hai
ye kaa-e-naat, jism, aur jaan ishq hai
ishq saramad, ishq hii mansoor hai
ishq Musa, ishq koh\-e\-noor hai
Khaak ko boot, aur boot ko devataa kartaa hai ishq
intahaa ye hai ke ba.nde ko Kudaa kartaa hai ishq
*********
Allah is Love. Wahabi God is a God of vengeance. He only is a figment of Wahabi's imagination.
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
typo:
yaane Hadith ishq hai, Quran ishq hai
yaane Hadith ishq hai, Quran ishq hai
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Another related saying of Ali is as follows:
"(O Allah!) I did not worship You for the fear of chastisement or for the desire towards heaven; rather, I worshiped You because I found You worthy of being worshipped " –Bihar al-Anwar
On a similar note, Ibn Sina:
"The gnostic seeks Allah alone. He is not concerned with anything else. In his eyes there is nothing more important and more valuable than gnosis. He worships Allah because worship is due to Him and because it is an appropriate and decent way of expressing man's relation to Him. The worship of the gnostic is free from any element of fear or hope of reward."
Rabia (al-Adawiya) taught to love God for God's sake. In one of her supplications, she says:
"O my God! If I worship Thee on account of the fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship Thee with the hope of Paradise, exclude me from it, but if I worship Thee for Thine own sake, then withhold not from me Thine Eternal Beauty."
When asked regarding her desire for the Paradise, Rabia replied:
"Is it not enough for me that I am given leave to worship Him? He is worthy of worship without motive."
"(O Allah!) I did not worship You for the fear of chastisement or for the desire towards heaven; rather, I worshiped You because I found You worthy of being worshipped " –Bihar al-Anwar
On a similar note, Ibn Sina:
"The gnostic seeks Allah alone. He is not concerned with anything else. In his eyes there is nothing more important and more valuable than gnosis. He worships Allah because worship is due to Him and because it is an appropriate and decent way of expressing man's relation to Him. The worship of the gnostic is free from any element of fear or hope of reward."
Rabia (al-Adawiya) taught to love God for God's sake. In one of her supplications, she says:
"O my God! If I worship Thee on account of the fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship Thee with the hope of Paradise, exclude me from it, but if I worship Thee for Thine own sake, then withhold not from me Thine Eternal Beauty."
When asked regarding her desire for the Paradise, Rabia replied:
"Is it not enough for me that I am given leave to worship Him? He is worthy of worship without motive."
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
This is amazing. Worship of Allah is being taught to those who believe in Allah by those who do not.
People, let me give you some advise. The philosophy of porus if followed will eventually lead you to believe that you have attained a state of such mental bliss that belief is Allah has now become irrelevant.
By the way, if I learn Arabic will I learn it from humans? Also, will I be able to learn or understand Arabic better than Abdullah Yusuf Ali or Shakir or Pickthall?
Forget about what Hazrat Ali said,
Here is what the quran says.. (and none of the versus use the word Taqwa)
009.018
YUSUFALI: The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
PICKTHAL: He only shall tend Allah's sanctuaries who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due and feareth none save Allah. For such (only) is it possible that they can be of the rightly guided.
SHAKIR: Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate and fears none but Allah; so (as for) these, it may be that they are of the followers of the right course.
020.002
YUSUFALI: We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress,
PICKTHAL: We have not revealed unto thee (Muhammad) this Qur'an that thou shouldst be distressed,
SHAKIR: We have not revealed the Quran to you that you may be unsuccessful.
020.003
YUSUFALI: But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah),-
PICKTHAL: But as a reminder unto him who feareth,
SHAKIR: Nay, it is a reminder to him who fears:
035.018
YUSUFALI: Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another's burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: And no burdened soul can bear another's burden, and if one heavy laden crieth for (help with) his load, naught of it will be lifted even though he (unto whom he crieth) be of kin. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in secret, and have established worship. He who groweth (in goodness), groweth only for himself, (he cannot by his merit redeem others). Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: And a burdened soul cannot bear the burden of another and if one weighed down by burden should cry for (another to carry) its burden, not aught of it shall be carried, even though he be near of kin. You warn only those who fear their Lord in secret and keep up prayer; and whoever purifies himself, he purifies himself only for (the good of) his own soul; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
087.010
YUSUFALI: The admonition will be received by those who fear (Allah):
PICKTHAL: He will heed who feareth,
SHAKIR: He who fears will mind,
035.028
YUSUFALI: And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
PICKTHAL: And of men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, divers hues? The erudite among His bondmen fear Allah alone. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.
SHAKIR: And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.
Here are some other eg which you can look up.
011.103
014.014
055.046
079.040
004.077
013.021
024.052
033.039
039.023
067.012
079.026
079.045
098.008
036.011
050.033
The below is an example of what will happen to those who do not fear their accounting in the hereafter.
078.026
YUSUFALI: A fitting recompense (for them).
PICKTHAL: Reward proportioned (to their evil deeds).
SHAKIR: Requital corresponding.
078.027
YUSUFALI: For that they used not to fear any account (for their deeds),
PICKTHAL: For lo! they looked not for a reckoning;
SHAKIR: Surely they feared not the account,
Pickthall and Shakir translate taqwa - as to be careful of your duty towards Allah. There is a fear factor in that too. Will you be careful if you are not afraid? When was the last time you sat for an exam because you loved your teacher and not because you wanted to pass?
The below para is from http://www.mostmerciful.com/from-the-fe ... ndship.htm
On this important subject; "Fear Allah" (and the Love for Allah), there is a critical verse; "O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared..." Qur'an 3: 102. One can think of several varieties of fears. But, the true believer or rather the one who is seeking to fall in Love with Allah, would fear of doing anything which may be displeasing to his Beloved. This higher form of Love for Rabb should not be because of the fear of "Hell Fire" or the reward of "Garden of Bliss", but the constant fear of not displeasing. Soon we shall see that this Soul is now; Nafsul-mutma'innah (a soul that is totally satisfied {with inner peace}). (see Qur'an 89: 27). There are countless reasons and blessings to LOVE Allah.
And finally
Volume 3, Book 31, Number 125:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Whoever established prayers on the night of Qadr out of sincere faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven; and whoever fasts in the month of Ramadan out of sincere faith, and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven."
The heaviest things to be placed in the Scales shall be the fear of God and good character.
I guess noble men who do not fear Allah need not fear!!
People, let me give you some advise. The philosophy of porus if followed will eventually lead you to believe that you have attained a state of such mental bliss that belief is Allah has now become irrelevant.
By the way, if I learn Arabic will I learn it from humans? Also, will I be able to learn or understand Arabic better than Abdullah Yusuf Ali or Shakir or Pickthall?
Forget about what Hazrat Ali said,
Here is what the quran says.. (and none of the versus use the word Taqwa)
009.018
YUSUFALI: The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
PICKTHAL: He only shall tend Allah's sanctuaries who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due and feareth none save Allah. For such (only) is it possible that they can be of the rightly guided.
SHAKIR: Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate and fears none but Allah; so (as for) these, it may be that they are of the followers of the right course.
020.002
YUSUFALI: We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress,
PICKTHAL: We have not revealed unto thee (Muhammad) this Qur'an that thou shouldst be distressed,
SHAKIR: We have not revealed the Quran to you that you may be unsuccessful.
020.003
YUSUFALI: But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah),-
PICKTHAL: But as a reminder unto him who feareth,
SHAKIR: Nay, it is a reminder to him who fears:
035.018
YUSUFALI: Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another's burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: And no burdened soul can bear another's burden, and if one heavy laden crieth for (help with) his load, naught of it will be lifted even though he (unto whom he crieth) be of kin. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in secret, and have established worship. He who groweth (in goodness), groweth only for himself, (he cannot by his merit redeem others). Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: And a burdened soul cannot bear the burden of another and if one weighed down by burden should cry for (another to carry) its burden, not aught of it shall be carried, even though he be near of kin. You warn only those who fear their Lord in secret and keep up prayer; and whoever purifies himself, he purifies himself only for (the good of) his own soul; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
087.010
YUSUFALI: The admonition will be received by those who fear (Allah):
PICKTHAL: He will heed who feareth,
SHAKIR: He who fears will mind,
035.028
YUSUFALI: And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
PICKTHAL: And of men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, divers hues? The erudite among His bondmen fear Allah alone. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.
SHAKIR: And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.
Here are some other eg which you can look up.
011.103
014.014
055.046
079.040
004.077
013.021
024.052
033.039
039.023
067.012
079.026
079.045
098.008
036.011
050.033
The below is an example of what will happen to those who do not fear their accounting in the hereafter.
078.026
YUSUFALI: A fitting recompense (for them).
PICKTHAL: Reward proportioned (to their evil deeds).
SHAKIR: Requital corresponding.
078.027
YUSUFALI: For that they used not to fear any account (for their deeds),
PICKTHAL: For lo! they looked not for a reckoning;
SHAKIR: Surely they feared not the account,
Pickthall and Shakir translate taqwa - as to be careful of your duty towards Allah. There is a fear factor in that too. Will you be careful if you are not afraid? When was the last time you sat for an exam because you loved your teacher and not because you wanted to pass?
The below para is from http://www.mostmerciful.com/from-the-fe ... ndship.htm
On this important subject; "Fear Allah" (and the Love for Allah), there is a critical verse; "O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared..." Qur'an 3: 102. One can think of several varieties of fears. But, the true believer or rather the one who is seeking to fall in Love with Allah, would fear of doing anything which may be displeasing to his Beloved. This higher form of Love for Rabb should not be because of the fear of "Hell Fire" or the reward of "Garden of Bliss", but the constant fear of not displeasing. Soon we shall see that this Soul is now; Nafsul-mutma'innah (a soul that is totally satisfied {with inner peace}). (see Qur'an 89: 27). There are countless reasons and blessings to LOVE Allah.
And finally
Volume 3, Book 31, Number 125:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Whoever established prayers on the night of Qadr out of sincere faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven; and whoever fasts in the month of Ramadan out of sincere faith, and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven."
The heaviest things to be placed in the Scales shall be the fear of God and good character.
I guess noble men who do not fear Allah need not fear!!
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
porus,Anajmi would have you believe he is quoting the Quran when in fact he quotes from Yusufali translation. That translation is suspect now because it is completely adulterated by Wahabis.
You then go on to explain the meaning of taqwa as piety - now is that the quran or is that your translation of the quran?
Re: 3 "Laanatti"
Muslim,
So where do you think Rabia will be in the hereafter when believers are in paradise and non-believers in hell? Will she be hanging out on pul-e-sirat for all eternity?Rabia (al-Adawiya) taught to love God for God's sake. In one of her supplications, she says:
"O my God! If I worship Thee on account of the fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship Thee with the hope of Paradise, exclude me from it, but if I worship Thee for Thine own sake, then withhold not from me Thine Eternal Beauty."