Assalamu Alaykum,
I do not think there is a common ground for this discussion any more, for Qur'an is in Arabic language, and if we are not even willing to accept the usage of the word mubeen in the language of the Qur'an, and blaming English dictionary of why they used an English word which means something different, then there is no use for this discussion. There is no way in Arabic this verse can mean what you have suggested, however, you will tell me that thats because some translator has translated it as 'manifest', and we do not care about the Qur'anic or classical usage of the speakers of the language! This is like taking a book of medicine (dictionary) and saying human body operates according to the book, and if it doesnt, there is a flaw in human body and it ought to be that way!
I will summarize my position before I close.
Qur'an has required non-belivers to understand it and ponder upon it, that I have also already quoted in my previous posts.
Muhammad (sws)'s mission has also been narrated by Qur'an, (revelation of Qur'an, andhaar, tazkiyah and so forth as expounded by Qur'an) and there is no where in the Qur'an where it says Qur'an cannot be understood without Muhammad (sws).
Further, it couldnt be clearer that Qur'an provided enough commandments which were needed for non-Muslims to correct their worship and that Muhammad (sws)'s Sunnah only presents deeds and not beliefs. Beliefs are all in Qur'an.
Qur'an has further made it very clear that God, Muhammad (sws) are the only two sources which are to be obeyed by Muslims (does not imply that Qur'an cannot be understood without Muhammad (sws) sayings!) and anything else after that, is not to be followed blindly. (Al-Nisa 4:59, please see use of the phrase 'and if you differ with the authority'.)
Having said that, I think I am off this discussion. I will really really like to thank Hur for their time and energy. I will also like to thank other participants for their useful comments.
If anyone else on this forum would like me to explain anything, please let me know. (muhammad_iqbal@msn.com).
Best wishes to all.
What Qur'an says about reading and understanding it.
Re: What Qur'an says about reading and understanding it.
Yes, this discussion had better end.
1. Quran claims it is a clear book, but 3:7 says otherwise.
2. Quran hints of a "final interpretation" in 7:53, indicating there may be yet more in the Quran that is not apparent (mubeen)
3. Quran calls itself the glorious (al-majeed). How is glory apparent? In its poetry?
4. Quran calls itself the generous (al-kareem). How is it generous? By number of words in it? Bible has more words.
So, it is pointless outguessing what sort of clarity is implied by the word 'mubeen'? Like al-quaran al-majeed and al-quran al-kareem, it is best to refer to the whole phrase al-kitab al-mubeen to mean just the Quran. The adjective can have different interpreations at different times and for different people.
For a believer (a true mumin), nothing is more 'clear' than word of God. For a jurist, Quran offers 'clear' and final say on a point of law. For a seeker, it offers a 'clear' path to increase faith and knowledge.
It is more useful to spend time studying exegetes than picking petty points here.
1. Quran claims it is a clear book, but 3:7 says otherwise.
2. Quran hints of a "final interpretation" in 7:53, indicating there may be yet more in the Quran that is not apparent (mubeen)
3. Quran calls itself the glorious (al-majeed). How is glory apparent? In its poetry?
4. Quran calls itself the generous (al-kareem). How is it generous? By number of words in it? Bible has more words.
So, it is pointless outguessing what sort of clarity is implied by the word 'mubeen'? Like al-quaran al-majeed and al-quran al-kareem, it is best to refer to the whole phrase al-kitab al-mubeen to mean just the Quran. The adjective can have different interpreations at different times and for different people.
For a believer (a true mumin), nothing is more 'clear' than word of God. For a jurist, Quran offers 'clear' and final say on a point of law. For a seeker, it offers a 'clear' path to increase faith and knowledge.
It is more useful to spend time studying exegetes than picking petty points here.
Re: What Qur'an says about reading and understanding it.
I actually agree with some of Porus's summation, which is what I have been trying to explain, maybe not effectively.
Quran is as clear as you limit it to be.
This statement may seem odd but look at the discussion we've had...discussing the expanse of what "clear" is defined as.
Musalman say mubin is defined by one translation of the word (clear)...and not acknowledging the other translations by the same dictionary (manifest, apparent, etc).
Musalman say Quran is understandable completely by itself. Yet doesn't acknowledge that without the traditions of the Prophets...2/3 of the Quran cannot be practiced and implimented (methods of salat, fasting, Hajj, zakat, etc). These traditions are required to be adhered to according to the Quran (obey Allah and obey His Messenger). The Quran is the manual of life from God...the Prophet is the example of implimentation of the manual into life.
I am not nit-picking points...but those chosen seemingly small points have hugh implications.
If I agree that the Quran is completely understood without the traditions of the Prophet...I negate the need of the Prophet..and thereby negate several verses of the Quran itself.
And Musalman uses the word mubin to defend this stance. This is the linch-pin for his argument...that the Quran ALONE is enough.
And neither the majority of other verses of the Quran support this...nor does the hadiths of the Prophet. For if Quran ALONE was enough...there is absolutely no need for me to OBEY the Prophet.
was salamu alaykum
Quran is as clear as you limit it to be.
This statement may seem odd but look at the discussion we've had...discussing the expanse of what "clear" is defined as.
Musalman say mubin is defined by one translation of the word (clear)...and not acknowledging the other translations by the same dictionary (manifest, apparent, etc).
Musalman say Quran is understandable completely by itself. Yet doesn't acknowledge that without the traditions of the Prophets...2/3 of the Quran cannot be practiced and implimented (methods of salat, fasting, Hajj, zakat, etc). These traditions are required to be adhered to according to the Quran (obey Allah and obey His Messenger). The Quran is the manual of life from God...the Prophet is the example of implimentation of the manual into life.
I am not nit-picking points...but those chosen seemingly small points have hugh implications.
If I agree that the Quran is completely understood without the traditions of the Prophet...I negate the need of the Prophet..and thereby negate several verses of the Quran itself.
And Musalman uses the word mubin to defend this stance. This is the linch-pin for his argument...that the Quran ALONE is enough.
And neither the majority of other verses of the Quran support this...nor does the hadiths of the Prophet. For if Quran ALONE was enough...there is absolutely no need for me to OBEY the Prophet.
was salamu alaykum
Re: What Qur'an says about reading and understanding it.
Just out of couresty Musalaman,
Please define how one understand and impliment something like the Hajj..without referencing anything but the Quran.
Thanks
Please define how one understand and impliment something like the Hajj..without referencing anything but the Quran.
Thanks