marriage

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#61

Unread post by Zeal » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:23 am

Bro Tahir,

Your quote
____________________________________________
Bro Zeal,
It is amazing that you prefer to heed to a relatively obscure person like Michael H. Hart over the likes of Russel, Nietzche and Angela Carter together. Also, the list which you mention is about the most "influential" and not the most "intellectual" people.
_____________________________________________

slight problem in understanding - I am not paying heed to Michael Hart , but to Quran and prophet mohammed's hadith(check my sentence)

Michael Hart was just FYI.

Morover point to be noted is Intellectual people can only influence so many people over such a long period .

Btw - are we debating about prophet mohammed's(PBUH) intellectuality ??

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#62

Unread post by Zeal » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:31 am

Tahir,
Your quote
______________________________________________
I forgot to mention an illustrious utility of marriage as demonstrated by the most God fearing people of the world. Many sex tourists from middle east marry teenage girls from poor families (usually hyderabad) in lieu of money to the girls' father.
______________________________________________

Who assured you that arabs are god fearing people.

You cannot translate religion by the way people follow it.
In that way it will be a different Islam for Tasleema nasreen , different for Shk Ahmed Deedat, different for you etc etc.

You have to check the authencity of the religion from the sources where it originated from ( Ex: quran and hadith).

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#63

Unread post by Zeal » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:46 am

Brother Kalim ,

Your quote
_______________________________________________
Pedophilia is a crime so is infanticide, but sex between consenting adults is not.
________________________________________________

Please tell us first whether you follow Islam or you are an athiest ?

If yes you follow , then there is no margin for any of your above arguments.
In Islam you have to submit to the will of Allah and Allah prohibits sex without marriage (called Zina)

If you do not follow Islam ,then you are out of scope.
You shud search some other board to put your thoughts.

Sorry about the confused quote, pls clarify.

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#64

Unread post by jamanpasand » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:34 pm

Dear Average Bohra

Wonderful. I am curious to know, how you have identified Chookra so easily.
You must be in some intelligence agency

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#65

Unread post by scared » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:37 pm

Br. tahir,
Br. scared,
If you argue with any of those arabs, they'll convince you that they aren't doing anything unislamic. Islam doesnt prohibit marrying a 15 year old nor does it specify the minimum number of days for which you can marry her. Infact, those arabs could accuse you of insulting the prophet if you try to preach them what they are doing is wrong !

So finally it is our own conscience and inner drive to be good, as kalim puts it, which can guide us to right conduct according to the place and time.
As you know "intention" in Islam plays a very major role. Intention is what will take you to heaven or hell. What was your intention when you married the 15 year old? Was it to raise a family or was it just to have sex? I am sure you judge for yourself.

Islam says that Allah is most just, if he is, do you think he will be ok with these arabs or will he throw them in hell. This isn't a complicated issue, pretty easy for any judge to decide let alone one who is the most just.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#66

Unread post by scared » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:42 pm

Br. tahir,

Here is a hadith which will clarify the position of Islam on this issue.

On the authority of Omar bin Al-Khattab, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah salla Allah u alihi wa sallam say :

"Actions are but by intention and every man shall have but that which he intended. Thus he whose migration was for Allah and His messenger, his migration was for Allah and His messenger, and he whose migration was to achieve some worldly benefit or to take some woman in marriage, his migration was for that for which he migrated."
related by Bukhari and Muslim

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#67

Unread post by scared » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:03 pm

Here are some other related hadith.

Narrated 'Ali: "I said to Ibn 'Abbas, 'During the battle of Khaibar the Prophet forbade (Nikah) Al-Mut'a [Temporary Marriage in English] and the eating of donkey's meat.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah), Volume 7, Book 62, Number 50)"

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah and Salama bin Al-Akwa': "While we were in an army, Allah's Apostle came to us and said, "You have been allowed to do the Mut'a (marriage), so do it." Salama bin Al-Akwa' said: Allah's Apostle's said, "If a man and a woman agree (to marry temporarily), their marriage should last for three nights, and if they like to continue, they can do so; and if they want to separate, they can do so." I do not know whether that was only for us or for all the people in general. Abu Abdullah (Al-Bukhari) said: 'Ali made it clear that the Prophet said, "The Mut'a marriage has been cancelled (made unlawful)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah), Volume 7, Book 62, Number 52)"

Narrated Saburah ibn Ma'bad al-Juhani: "The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) prohibited temporary marriage with women. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2068)"

And here are some quranic ayahs regarding this.

004.019

O ye who believe! YE ARE FORBIDDEN TO INHERIT WOMEN AGAINST THEIR WILL. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

004.020

But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, EVEN IF YE HAD GIVEN THE LATTER A WHOLE TREASURE FOR DOWER, TAKE NOT THE LEAST BIT OF IT BACK: Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?

004.021

And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?

004.022

AND MARRY NOT WOMEN WHOM YOUR FATHERS MARRIED,- except what is past: It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed.

004.023

PROHIBITED TO YOU (FOR MARRIAGE) ARE:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-

004.024

ALSO (PROHIBITED ARE) WOMEN ALREADY MARRIED, except those whom your right hands possess [these are prisoners of war from jihad - Yusef Ali] : THUS HATH ALLAH ORDAINED (PROHIBITIONS) AGAINST YOU: EXCEPT FOR THESE, ALL OTHERS ARE LAWFUL, PROVIDED YE SEEK (THEM IN MARRIAGE) WITH GIFTS FROM YOUR PROPERTY, - DESIRING CHASTITY, NOT LUST, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, GIVE THEM THEIR DOWERS (AT LEAST) AS PRESCRIBED; BUT IF, AFTER A DOWER IS PRESCRIBED, AGREE MUTUALLY (TO VARY IT), THERE IS NO BLAME ON YOU, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

004.025

If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess [these are prisoners of war from jihad - Yusef Ali]: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: WED THEM WITH THE LEAVE OF THEIR OWNERS, AND GIVE THEM THEIR DOWERS, ACCORDING TO WHAT IS REASONABLE: THEY SHOULD BE CHASTE, NOT LUSTFUL, NOR TAKING PARAMOURS: WHEN THEY ARE TAKEN IN WEDLOCK, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

004.026

Allah doth wish to make clear to you and to show you the ordinances of those before you; and (He doth wish to) turn to you (In Mercy): And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

004.027

Allah doth wish to Turn to you, BUT THE WISH OF THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEIR LUSTS IS THAT YE SHOULD TURN AWAY (FROM HIM),- far, far away.

From these ayahs, it is apparent (1) A marriage contract must consist of more than an arrangement for satisfaction of lusts (Quran 4:24, 25, and 27); and (2) Quran 4:24 merely states that "all others are lawful," i.e. one may marry any partner to whom marriage is not otherwise prohibited in the Quran. It does not say mut’a is alright, and the ayah’s discussion of the dowery does not imply the legality of mut’a but merely recites the universal rule that the dowery contracted for cannot be reduced except by mutual agreement. See also Quran 4:19.

Moreover, any argument based on Quran 4:24 fails to address the fundamental incompatibility of mut’a with Quranic criteria for divorce. While Islam does not require OBJECTIVE proof of some fault such as "mental cruelty" or "adultery" as a precondition for divorce, the Quran makes it clear that there must be some BONA FIDE "disagreement," "incompatibility" or "conflict" between the spouses:

004.035

If ye fear a BREACH BETWEEN THEM TWAIN, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

004.128

If a wife fears CRUELTY OR DESERTION ON HER HUSBAND'S PART, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

004.129

Ye are NEVER ABLE TO BE FAIR AND JUST AS BETWEEN WOMEN, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

004.130

BUT IF THEY DISAGREE (AND MUST PART), Allah will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty: for Allah is He that careth for all and is Wise.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#68

Unread post by tahir » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:09 pm

Well, thank you br. scared. Islam's position on the issue stands clear to me. But I have to say that a majority of muslims do not understand the importance of "intention" (Niyat).

Average Bohra
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#69

Unread post by Average Bohra » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:18 pm

Dear Average Bohra

Wonderful. I am curious to know, how you have identified Chookra so easily.
You must be in some intelligence agency


Thanks Jamanpasand...when you have been cussed out repeatedly for a few years by the same guy, his posts tend to get very predictable. One can change screen names, but not the logic or thought process.

I am sure there is some Hadith against lying that he is ignoring.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#70

Unread post by scared » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:53 pm

br. tahir,

The next time an arab fights with you about Islam allowing temporary marriages, take these hadith and ayahs to him and kick the shit out of him.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#71

Unread post by tahir » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:58 am

004.023

PROHIBITED TO YOU (FOR MARRIAGE) ARE:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful:-
I need to know bohraism's position on this issue. Do bohras follow this particular hadith as it is or they have modified it like they have done to namaz and other aspects of islam? My question arises from my knowledge about two bohra couples in my city which are uncle-niece (mama-bhanji) pairings. If sister's daughters are prohibited in islam for marriage, how did the city aamil solemnise their nikah? Would the sayedna officiate such a nikah if he is approached for the same? Will he even care to inform the couple about such marriages been invalid in islam?

mature
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#72

Unread post by mature » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:13 am

kindly before you become known as a liar like your friend insaaf please tell us which amil and which sisters kid was married and to whom.please do not lie tehir or go your natural self and start abusing when defeated

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#73

Unread post by Zeal » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:28 am

Brother Tahir/Kalim,
Your quote,
_______________________________________________
I need to know bohraism's position on this issue. Do bohras follow this particular hadith as it is or they have modified it like they have done to namaz and other aspects of islam? My question arises from my knowledge about two bohra couples in my city which are uncle-niece (mama-bhanji) pairings.
_______________________________________________

Pls clarify your take also on these issues(sex and marriage).

Kalim has put me in great surprise.

On one hand you talk of big values , and on the other you support the most ridiculous and shameful sin (free sex) and also seem to doubt about the intellectuality of the prophet.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#74

Unread post by Alislam » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:57 am

Br.Tahir,

"I need to know bohraism's position on this issue. Do bohras follow this particular hadith as it is or they have modified it like they have done to namaz and other aspects of islam?"

---- This is not a hadith but an Ayat of Quran, which i think Bohras also follow religiously.

One cannot marry his sister's daughter, but if the relationship is that of a cousin sister's daughter, then it is allowed.

I think you are mentioning of this kind of relationship and not that of real sister.

Also, which aspects of namaz, you think the Bohras have changed ?

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#75

Unread post by tahir » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:07 pm

Pls clarify your take also on these issues(sex and marriage).

Kalim has put me in great surprise.

On one hand you talk of big values , and on the other you support the most ridiculous and shameful sin (free sex) and also seem to doubt about the intellectuality of the prophet.
Br. Zeal,

If bohras want to and claim to follow Islam, they should hold that ayah in high value irrespective of my take on sex and marriage (of which I have clarified enough).

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#76

Unread post by tahir » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:10 pm

One cannot marry his sister's daughter, but if the relationship is that of a cousin sister's daughter, then it is allowed.

I think you are mentioning of this kind of relationship and not that of real sister.
Br. Alislam,
I didn't make that post before doing a thorough research. The two couples I mentioned are real uncle-niece (mama-bhanji). That is, in both the cases the boy has married the daughter of her real sister and not of a cousin. In the first case, the sister was a widower and had been living with her parents along with her three kids after her husband died. When her eldest daughter grew up (to 17 years) she married her to her real brother (the girl's uncle) who by that time had become the primary bread earner of the family.

In the second case the boy and the girl (her niece) lived in different towns. The boy started liking the girl and asked her hand from her mother (his real sister). She didnt refuse. I dont know if this is relevant to mention here that the boy (the uncle) was very affluent while his sister (ie his mother in law) was married off to a relatively poor family.

In the first case, the age gap between uncle-niece was 9 years while in the second it was 3 years.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#77

Unread post by tahir » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 pm

Correction:
sister was a "widow"

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#78

Unread post by Alislam » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:46 pm

Br. Tahir,

In such a case, the culprit is the Mullah/Aamil who performed the nikaah.

It may a stray incident, but generally this is not accepted as is done among hindus (especially south indians).

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#79

Unread post by porus » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:35 pm

These marriages, if Islamic, are void and they should be nullified. Tahir, if you know these people, then you should let them know of the Quranic injunction.

Amil may not be aware of the relationships and the people concerned may not be aware of the injunction.

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#80

Unread post by Zeal » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:46 pm

Bro tahir ,
Your quote :
_________________________________________________

Br. Zeal,

If bohras want to and claim to follow Islam, they should hold that ayah in high value irrespective of my take on sex and marriage (of which I have clarified enough).
_________________________________________________

Just clarify one more time .
else my understanding is you do not answer the quotes which you feel convinced of.(refer back)

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#81

Unread post by jamanpasand » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:48 pm

As I understand, the objective of this site is accountability of Kothar.
Progressive have no material differences with Syedna in terms of bohras faith.

But look at this extreme. Is this a correct forum for these people?

Humsafar
It's God - another human invention - that came in spoiled things for everybody.

scared
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#82

Unread post by scared » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:57 pm

br. tahir,

As br. porus pointed out, these marriages are unislamic. Since you now have the knowledge, it has now become your duty to inform these couples and the Amils of the true Islamic law. If you do not inform these people then you may have to share their burden in the hereafter. If you do, and if they ignore you, inshallah there will be no burden on you.

mumineen
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#83

Unread post by mumineen » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:42 pm

British Pakistanis should stop marrying cousins, says MP

Riazat Butt

Wednesday November 16, 2005

The Guardian



The Labour MP Ann Cryer has called for British Pakistanis to stop marrying their first cousins after a study suggested that they were more likely to have children with recessive disorders than the general population.



An investigation by BBC Newsnight claims that British Pakistanis account for 30% of all British children with recessive disorders, which include cystic fibrosis. Dr Peter Corry, a consultant pediatrician at Bradford royal infirmary, says his hospital sees a disproportionately high rate of recessive genetic illnesses.



He and his team have identified about 140 different autosomal recessive disorders among local children and they estimate that a typical district would see between 20 and 30.



Speaking to the Guardian, Ms Cryer said: "I'm not calling for a ban or a change in the law because that would mean changing the law for everyone. I'm simply calling for an enlightened debate. We've avoided discussions on this subject. People are being politically correct.



"It's not racist. It's a challenge, but not to the Pakistani culture. It's an opportunity to improve the lot of communities that still have this tradition. It's time they discussed it and asked if it's a good thing."



Ms Cryer said Asian communities had to adopt a different lifestyle and look outside the family for husbands and wives.



On tonight's Newsnight Ms Cryer also says: "There is something very wrong going on. I think the sooner we start to have a debate and we start to encourage the Asian community to address it themselves by saying we have to stop this tradition of first-cousin marriages."



Birmingham primary care trust estimates that one in 10 of all children born to first-cousin marriages in the city's Pakistani community either dies in infancy or goes on to suffer serious disability as a result of recessive genetic disorders. Recessive genetic illness is one of the main reasons for admission to Birmingham's children's hospital.



The variant genes that cause recessive genetic illnesses tend to be rare. In the general population, the likelihood of a couple having the same variant gene is 100-1. In cousin marriages, if one partner has a variant gene, the risk that the other has it too is more likely to be one in eight.



A report on the impact of genetic risk on Britain’s Pakistani families, published by the Wellcome Trust in 2003, found that infant mortality and childhood morbidity rates were higher among British Pakistanis than other ethnic groups but that marrying relatives did not always result in the birth of children with recessive disorders.

balanced
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#84

Unread post by balanced » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:52 pm

I am married and have grown up children. Now I know that I wished I had got married when I was younger age rather then when i did.
1) After getting married you need to know your parner for atleast for the first two years and you do things together and learn about each other E.G.their strenght, weaknesess, etc..

2) Now you know more about your partner you can start making plan for your future what you want do as a couple (I don't mean get separted if you don't like each other) you work at your marriage and balance the strenghth and weaknesses.

3) Then you plan for your future what you want to do.

With my experieced I wished I had got married with same partner but we would have much more time to discuss the future and plan it and to know each other's strenghth.

We both love each other more then ever before but now there are times that we get friction because we did not have time to plan our marriage life after getting married.

I don't believe in going out as partner or living as a partner without getting married.

You only learn about each other, after you are married and working together.

I strongly don't believe that women's place is as a house wife and just look after children. Women has a lot give in society just as much as men.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#85

Unread post by tahir » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:30 pm

Originally posted by porus:
These marriages, if Islamic, are void and they should be nullified. Tahir, if you know these people, then you should let them know of the Quranic injunction.

Amil may not be aware of the relationships and the people concerned may not be aware of the injunction.
Both the couples have kids. For their childrens' sake, I don't think it alrigt to ask them to nullify their marriage . And I am sure that both of them, if not aware about the Qoranic injunctions, are atleast aware that they have broken some serious convention/tradition. People still joke about them saying "those were the marriages in which the bridegroom carried the lavandi (lantern)" since traditionally, the uncle (mama) of the bride holds the lavandi in a marriage.

Also, if I have to tell them to follow Quran, I cannot just stop at the issue of marriage. I will have to give them a long list which would prominantly include the following:

- Not to indulge in demi god worship which is tantamount to idolatory. Not to prostrate before a human; smooch his thighs, knees and feet and worship his pictures.
- Not to feign prayer in masjid-al-haram by merely synching with rest of the muslims and afterwards calling it "false namaz".
- Not to lie, decieve and cheat and to always have good intentions (niyat).
- If your conduct is right and motives noble, you do not have to worry about the illusory obstacles like the demi-god's wrath, his curses/abuses and excommunication (In Qoranic terms - "fear no one except allah").

In effect, I'll have to ask them to cease to be "burhani" bohras.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#86

Unread post by porus » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:45 pm

Tahir,

You need not go beyond pointing out the injunction, which applies to all who are Muslims. There is no need to advise them to nullify their marriages etc. If you do not wish to tell the couples directly, then at least, tell the Amil, very nicely of course, of the injunction.

For the rest, qadambosi etc, you are already doing a good job by participating on this board.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#87

Unread post by Alislam » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:53 pm

Govt mulls proposal to lower marriageable age for men

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... urpg-1.cms