a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Humsafar
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#31

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:58 pm

Porus,

I don't think the Bohras are buying into this whole scam for sipiritual reasons. They couldn't care less if the Dai was acting on Imam's authority or not. They are too ignorant to know the difference. Bohras are into it for social and cultural reasons. The system, no matter how flawed, provides them with a sense of identity and community, and so long as their customary rituals are ministered to and so long as they get their regular "spiritual" fix during ramazan and muharram I don't think they are moved either way by the doctrinal nitty-gritty of their faith. Spirituality is the least of their concern. Their traders and merchants, they choose the path of least conflict and controversy. Convinience is their guiding principle.

Humsafar
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#32

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:06 pm

Ponga, I wish you'd not try to live up to your name. Please learn to let go and not insist on beating a dead horse. (Horse?? now chew on that.) ;)

Asghar Ali Engineer
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#33

Unread post by Asghar Ali Engineer » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:24 pm

It is not going to help anyway even if throw away the theory of hidden Imam. Hidden Imam or no hidden Imam, Bohras follow the Dai, many out of blind faith and some out of fear of social boycott. Many Bohras are not even aware of the theory of the hidden Imam. They just believe in Da'i and want to be with the community. Most of us need support of the community, not for religious but for social reasons as well. Marriage, death, jamatkhana, social occasions, all this provides meaning to people's life.

The only way out is to show courage, vlaue freedom, throw away the rotten and corrupt system and form a value system that guarantees freedom of conscience and critical evaluation of community leadership, and that is it. Without our commitment to freedom and values, no problem can ever be solved.

Gulf
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#34

Unread post by Gulf » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:38 pm

Originally posted by Asghar Ali Engineer:
It is not going to help anyway even if throw away the theory of hidden Imam. Hidden Imam or no hidden Imam, Bohras follow the Dai, many out of blind faith and some out of fear of social boycott. Many Bohras are not even aware of the theory of the hidden Imam. They just believe in Da'i and want to be with the community. Most of us need support of the community, not for religious but for social reasons as well. Marriage, death, jamatkhana, social occasions, all this provides meaning to people's life.
Huh! well designed thoughts...
sorry for your bad luck!!!!!

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#35

Unread post by ponga bhori » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:48 pm

All of the "intellectuals" have spoken?
None of the Abde-Sayednas (thanks)

Many have blind (will never see) faith
Some follow out of social boycott. Of these how many reformists?
My observation (Progressive could give better stats.) reformists have not increased dramatically, far out numbered by the blind abde-sayednas.

Over the years the khotar has not aggrivated majority members of a jumaat, as in Udiapur.(or may be the other way).

As there being no other reform but the Progressives, we have to STAY the course untill VICTORY is ours. InsallaH we shall succeed.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#36

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:48 pm

Originally posted by Asghar Ali Engineer:
It is not going to help anyway even if throw away the theory of hidden Imam. Hidden Imam or no hidden Imam, Bohras follow the Dai, many out of blind faith and some out of fear of social boycott. Many Bohras are not even aware of the theory of the hidden Imam. They just believe in Da'i and want to be with the community. Most of us need support of the community, not for religious but for social reasons as well. Marriage, death, jamatkhana, social occasions, all this provides meaning to people's life.

The only way out is to show courage, vlaue freedom, throw away the rotten and corrupt system and form a value system that guarantees freedom of conscience and critical evaluation of community leadership, and that is it. Without our commitment to freedom and values, no problem can ever be solved.
Sir, First of all thanks for taking the time to respond and secondly for sharing yr thoughts with us.

I do agree about the social aspects and the age old customs which when practised together provide solace, comfort and a sense of belonging and something which lends some meaning to life and the routine business of living.

The only problem is that when individuals decide to stand up, challenge and show defiance, they are easily dealt with, by throwing them out and boycotting them. Then the kothar claims that it does not make an iota of difference as the overwhelming majority are with them. Its only when a group of people oppose en masse' that they are noticed, and if more people instead of observing from the sidelines join in courageously, then a mass revolution starts. That will be the turning point.

I suppose a tipping point has to come when this mild, generally peace-loving community feels pushed to such an extent, as if on the brink of a precipice, that they can no longer suffer in silence, or some bold, innovative approach is taken by a group which really creates a buzz, attracts peoples' attention and stirs their conscience to fight.

As it stands today, the situation seems almost hopeless, one can only thrash about in rage and rave and rant and nobody listens....whilst the syedna's paid muscles make cheap fun as they come here and do on this forum.

africawalla
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#37

Unread post by africawalla » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:59 pm

Mr Engineer has been fighting the Kothar for a long time but has not had much success in getting support from the mainstream bohoras , why?

When you guys get an answer then may be work from there to understand what have you got to offer which they are not getting from mainstream
1) Socially its a very good get together
2) Status wise , people do enjoy the status provided
3) Their offsprings have an identity in a foreign land
4) People are more prosperour therefore money is not a problem any more
5) they get to attend all the important religious days and get to do namaz etc in a descipline way
6) It does provide a financial service like karza hassana which i know a lot people have benefitted
7) You always get 1 bad apple but that does not mean all the Kothar are bad or all the Amils are bad
8) Inspite of continues slagging off of the mainstream guys they are ok, we don't get much hassle
9) There are educated and business people who keep a low profile but do attend the mosques and you get an intellectual discussions

Question I have is, do the progressive have the infrastructure to provide any of this and the answer is negative , you are too few to make an impact
Most of the issues you keep on talking about are of the past, things have moved on, you have been out too long to understand the reality

pro_pig
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#38

Unread post by pro_pig » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:15 am

Mr asgarali engg where have u been and whats going on with u.so wass up what u have plan now.

Gulf
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#39

Unread post by Gulf » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:08 am

wellsaid by africawala..
Jazaak Allah Khairan

SBM
Posts: 6444
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#40

Unread post by SBM » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:57 am

Africawalla quote
***************************************************
you are too few to make an impact
***************************************************
Imam Husain only had 72 people as compared to Yazid's army but we still do PURJOSH Mataam

Gulf
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#41

Unread post by Gulf » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:23 pm

Oma stop! dreaming.. enough is enough
ask your husband whether he supports you.

.
.
.
:cool:

Humsafar
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#42

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:25 pm

africawalla,

There are two things here. 1) The truth and the rightness of the reform movement. 2) The lack of support for this cause from the mainstream bohras.

Let's not confuse the two. The second point does not invalidate the first. As I keep saying on this board, the mainstream bohras are lazy, docile and passive - they do not have the guts or even temprament to rock the boat. They will just go with the flow because it is easy and convenient. Those who can afford, pay up the "protection money" to the clergy and those who cannot, they pay up anyway because they want to remain a part of the "protection racket" otherwise knon as a community.

As for your laundry list, I could respond to it point by point but I think it would be a waste of time. You have a lot to learn. The points you list are nothing new. Any private club or organisation can guarantee all this. But the Dawoodi Bohra faith is not a club. So long as the Dai claims to follow the Islamic and fatimid mustalian faith and considers himself the representative of the Imam, he and his administration are duty bound to respect the tenets and traditions of our religion. The point is not how mainstream bohras have "adjusted" to the new reality and are seemingly happy, but whether the Dai is doing the right thing, whether he is fullfilling the imperatives of faith or even the norms of simple morality and justice.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#43

Unread post by Alislam » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:10 pm

Africawala,

Any jamaat in the world will have more no. of people discussing the wrongs happening in their jamaat ie., how money is extracted from them at different times and goes for the luxuries of aamil, jamaat goons, shazadas, shahzadees and royals.

I have travelled throught india and around the world and have interacted with the bohras (orthrodox) and a majority of them hate the way they are exploited and looted.

A few who belong to the exploiting class will keep on harping about everything is good in the community and the progressives in the community are very few and cannot harm them.

In fact there are more progressives within the orthrodox group than in the baraat group.

It is only due to the terror of kothar that the general bohra is unwilling to rise up openly and take head on with the goons.

surely, i see the time is near when there will be a revolt from within and the goons who exploited will be looted and killed.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#44

Unread post by ponga bhori » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:31 pm

Anajmi
"Check out this most interesting DVD. This is how the bohra MEN (not buffalos) have to take care of themselves:
(I had asked my son to get me a dhama dhami movie DVD and he got me:

300: in which 300 spartans fought to death against Xerxes

Humsafar,
You may enjoy this one, no metas though. But a good "fix"

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#45

Unread post by ponga bhori » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:52 pm

this Xerxes has many many abdes (salves).
And looks very weird has an army of animals (elephants,rhinos......no sheep or buffalos)

africawalla
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#46

Unread post by africawalla » Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:01 pm

The progressives keep stressing that there are a lot of people in the Mainstream who are unhappy, then why are they still coming in droves to the mosques , still paying all the so called demands for money , running and fighting to get a chance to do Qodambosis to Amils/bhaisahebs etc and thats 90% of the people i come in contact with.

The question you have to ask yourselves is whay has the mainstream on offer that its so popular which you have not got to offer

The strategy of winning people over by slagging off the mainstream malpractices does not seem to be working
unless you can come to the conclusion that the majority of people in the mainstream are not intelligent or not courageous to take any stand

If thats the case then why are you guys bothered so much to fight their cause when they themselves are not interested in your support

I think the only thing they get from you is a bit of gossip which the bohras love to indulge in

Unless you participate and work from within you have no chance as your contact with the people in the mainstream will remain minimum for you to instigate any change

So guys think of a winning strategy as being not majority you need to be more street wise

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#47

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:16 pm

Africawala,
100% of the "of the people i come in contact with" are speaking against the Syedna.
I guess you are like Mum refusing to LOOK outside your box.
There are a mumber of Progs that are to be LOOK at, just do not ignore them.
Salaams

africawalla
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#48

Unread post by africawalla » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:43 pm

ponga bhori
You may be right that 100% you meet are against but will they support you when it matters , i would think not , they all like the good things they get from the community, there are a lot of hypocrites therefore dont get into false sense of security, none of them will come out therefore you are fighting a lost cause, the progs are very few and they dont take part anyway in the mainstream , unless you are inside you will not be able to change

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#49

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:58 am

Africawala,
I agree with you.
These disatisfied so called progs "hidden in closets" are nothing but "gossip happy", they are of no support to the prog cause. Personally I discourage any such talk with them. They are for all practical purposes with the Dai.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#50

Unread post by Alislam » Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:17 pm

Africawalla,

I dont think you r so dump that you dont understand the terror tactics of kothar.

Many people have no choice but to remain forcefully in the mainstream however averse they may be.

Kothar has divided families and friends and if a person leaves, his immidiate family and friends are warned not to have any contact with him.

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#51

Unread post by makberi » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:09 am

i know a lotta abde syednas who claim that they pay their dues without any compulsion....but they lie to amil abt their annual incomes so as to save on the wajebaat payable to them....y do they need to lie if the they are paying these dues without any sort of compulsion...y cant they honestly say that i have earned xyz and want to pay abc!!!!......

if an honest survey was done asking ppl how much wud they actually donate ...and how much they end up paying.....trust me theere wud be a huge difference...in the end most of these abde syednas grumble and crib abt how the amil persuaded them to pay such large amounts for wajebaat. wats the use...even if we are to some how assume that these funds are used properly...the niyat of most ppl is corrupted as they are not really making these payments to earn sawab...

africawalla
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#52

Unread post by africawalla » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:16 pm

Aislam

You seem to be out of it, the things you mention dont happen any more
Times have changed and people have become smarter, there is good PR machine

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#53

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:47 pm

Alislam,
Yes Africawala is right again.
There is no pressure on the friends & family members,atleast not in my case. My wife continues to attend as usual,my family is encouraged and are invited at the masjid/religious functions.My family & friends have continued to be friends (even those some pro.)
And as Africawala says there is a PR in place too.The Amil himself talks very well with us.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#54

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:07 pm

Hah, infact it is the other way arround for me. I am the one who is putting the pressure, albeit with very little effect.
Africawala, I cannot put agree with you, this reform is a lost case. If anything it shall never be, for may be it is what Allah has willed to take the Bhoris on this path.

Humsafar
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#55

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:07 pm

Most of you who pontificate about refroms being "the lost cause" have not even "found" the cause in the first place. A mere disapproval of the system and disengagement from its functions is not enough. When was the last time you did anything to promote the reform movement? Until you do something, until you make an effort and make a commitment and be a "part of the cause", please remember that none of you've earned the right to trash the reforms as a lost casue. The last thing we need is your lazy pessimism and idle comments.

africawalla
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#56

Unread post by africawalla » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:15 pm

touched a wrong nerve Humsafar

We have to understand the reality and work from there

I think we need to think in a higher level and try to do good for all the Bohoras without alieneting a few , as I said slagging off the clergy is not winning you any supporters more making people wary of ur organisation

Think about it that some of your audience have gone through a lot of majlis/madressas etc and slagging the clergy to them will not work

Humsafar
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#57

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:07 pm

Africawalla,

What makes you think that reform is just "slagging the clergy"? Extortion of money is the most obvious and blatant aspect of this corrupt system, and that's why it gets talked about the most, but this certainly is not the only thing reformist talk about. (By the way, it's those on the inside who never tire of bad-mouthing the clergy.)

Yes people are still part of this system despite all the troubles and humiliations they go through. There are several well understood and documented reasons for this. Not point in going over them yet again.

If anything, the mass support for such a corrupt system is a testament NOT to the failure of the reform movement but a testament to the moral bankruptcy and cowardice of bohras. The reform movement is not going to give you reforms on a platter. Every bohra will have to work for it.

africawalla
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#58

Unread post by africawalla » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:11 pm

It could also be a testament to failure of the reform movement from offering a 'real' alternative or an infrastructure to support any sort of alternative solution

It also means that there is a lack of real leaders with vision in the reform movement

Humsafar
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#59

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:29 pm

The real alternative is aleady there. Go to Udaipur and see how a reformist jamaat works and how they devote whatever little resources they have to the welfare of the community. We do not make any tamasha or hype about our achievements but there is one thing we enjoy which the likes of you (rich and prospersous and so-called educated bohras) can only dream of: no fear of amils and his henchmen.

BTW, will you pls quit talking from both sides of your mouths? In one breath you justify the corrupt system and in another criticise the clergy and its manipulative ways. Stop being wishy-washy. Take a stand.