a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Porus,
I don't think the Bohras are buying into this whole scam for sipiritual reasons. They couldn't care less if the Dai was acting on Imam's authority or not. They are too ignorant to know the difference. Bohras are into it for social and cultural reasons. The system, no matter how flawed, provides them with a sense of identity and community, and so long as their customary rituals are ministered to and so long as they get their regular "spiritual" fix during ramazan and muharram I don't think they are moved either way by the doctrinal nitty-gritty of their faith. Spirituality is the least of their concern. Their traders and merchants, they choose the path of least conflict and controversy. Convinience is their guiding principle.
I don't think the Bohras are buying into this whole scam for sipiritual reasons. They couldn't care less if the Dai was acting on Imam's authority or not. They are too ignorant to know the difference. Bohras are into it for social and cultural reasons. The system, no matter how flawed, provides them with a sense of identity and community, and so long as their customary rituals are ministered to and so long as they get their regular "spiritual" fix during ramazan and muharram I don't think they are moved either way by the doctrinal nitty-gritty of their faith. Spirituality is the least of their concern. Their traders and merchants, they choose the path of least conflict and controversy. Convinience is their guiding principle.
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Ponga, I wish you'd not try to live up to your name. Please learn to let go and not insist on beating a dead horse. (Horse?? now chew on that.)
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
It is not going to help anyway even if throw away the theory of hidden Imam. Hidden Imam or no hidden Imam, Bohras follow the Dai, many out of blind faith and some out of fear of social boycott. Many Bohras are not even aware of the theory of the hidden Imam. They just believe in Da'i and want to be with the community. Most of us need support of the community, not for religious but for social reasons as well. Marriage, death, jamatkhana, social occasions, all this provides meaning to people's life.
The only way out is to show courage, vlaue freedom, throw away the rotten and corrupt system and form a value system that guarantees freedom of conscience and critical evaluation of community leadership, and that is it. Without our commitment to freedom and values, no problem can ever be solved.
The only way out is to show courage, vlaue freedom, throw away the rotten and corrupt system and form a value system that guarantees freedom of conscience and critical evaluation of community leadership, and that is it. Without our commitment to freedom and values, no problem can ever be solved.
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Huh! well designed thoughts...Originally posted by Asghar Ali Engineer:
It is not going to help anyway even if throw away the theory of hidden Imam. Hidden Imam or no hidden Imam, Bohras follow the Dai, many out of blind faith and some out of fear of social boycott. Many Bohras are not even aware of the theory of the hidden Imam. They just believe in Da'i and want to be with the community. Most of us need support of the community, not for religious but for social reasons as well. Marriage, death, jamatkhana, social occasions, all this provides meaning to people's life.
sorry for your bad luck!!!!!
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
All of the "intellectuals" have spoken?
None of the Abde-Sayednas (thanks)
Many have blind (will never see) faith
Some follow out of social boycott. Of these how many reformists?
My observation (Progressive could give better stats.) reformists have not increased dramatically, far out numbered by the blind abde-sayednas.
Over the years the khotar has not aggrivated majority members of a jumaat, as in Udiapur.(or may be the other way).
As there being no other reform but the Progressives, we have to STAY the course untill VICTORY is ours. InsallaH we shall succeed.
None of the Abde-Sayednas (thanks)
Many have blind (will never see) faith
Some follow out of social boycott. Of these how many reformists?
My observation (Progressive could give better stats.) reformists have not increased dramatically, far out numbered by the blind abde-sayednas.
Over the years the khotar has not aggrivated majority members of a jumaat, as in Udiapur.(or may be the other way).
As there being no other reform but the Progressives, we have to STAY the course untill VICTORY is ours. InsallaH we shall succeed.
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Sir, First of all thanks for taking the time to respond and secondly for sharing yr thoughts with us.Originally posted by Asghar Ali Engineer:
It is not going to help anyway even if throw away the theory of hidden Imam. Hidden Imam or no hidden Imam, Bohras follow the Dai, many out of blind faith and some out of fear of social boycott. Many Bohras are not even aware of the theory of the hidden Imam. They just believe in Da'i and want to be with the community. Most of us need support of the community, not for religious but for social reasons as well. Marriage, death, jamatkhana, social occasions, all this provides meaning to people's life.
The only way out is to show courage, vlaue freedom, throw away the rotten and corrupt system and form a value system that guarantees freedom of conscience and critical evaluation of community leadership, and that is it. Without our commitment to freedom and values, no problem can ever be solved.
I do agree about the social aspects and the age old customs which when practised together provide solace, comfort and a sense of belonging and something which lends some meaning to life and the routine business of living.
The only problem is that when individuals decide to stand up, challenge and show defiance, they are easily dealt with, by throwing them out and boycotting them. Then the kothar claims that it does not make an iota of difference as the overwhelming majority are with them. Its only when a group of people oppose en masse' that they are noticed, and if more people instead of observing from the sidelines join in courageously, then a mass revolution starts. That will be the turning point.
I suppose a tipping point has to come when this mild, generally peace-loving community feels pushed to such an extent, as if on the brink of a precipice, that they can no longer suffer in silence, or some bold, innovative approach is taken by a group which really creates a buzz, attracts peoples' attention and stirs their conscience to fight.
As it stands today, the situation seems almost hopeless, one can only thrash about in rage and rave and rant and nobody listens....whilst the syedna's paid muscles make cheap fun as they come here and do on this forum.
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Mr Engineer has been fighting the Kothar for a long time but has not had much success in getting support from the mainstream bohoras , why?
When you guys get an answer then may be work from there to understand what have you got to offer which they are not getting from mainstream
1) Socially its a very good get together
2) Status wise , people do enjoy the status provided
3) Their offsprings have an identity in a foreign land
4) People are more prosperour therefore money is not a problem any more
5) they get to attend all the important religious days and get to do namaz etc in a descipline way
6) It does provide a financial service like karza hassana which i know a lot people have benefitted
7) You always get 1 bad apple but that does not mean all the Kothar are bad or all the Amils are bad
Inspite of continues slagging off of the mainstream guys they are ok, we don't get much hassle
9) There are educated and business people who keep a low profile but do attend the mosques and you get an intellectual discussions
Question I have is, do the progressive have the infrastructure to provide any of this and the answer is negative , you are too few to make an impact
Most of the issues you keep on talking about are of the past, things have moved on, you have been out too long to understand the reality
When you guys get an answer then may be work from there to understand what have you got to offer which they are not getting from mainstream
1) Socially its a very good get together
2) Status wise , people do enjoy the status provided
3) Their offsprings have an identity in a foreign land
4) People are more prosperour therefore money is not a problem any more
5) they get to attend all the important religious days and get to do namaz etc in a descipline way
6) It does provide a financial service like karza hassana which i know a lot people have benefitted
7) You always get 1 bad apple but that does not mean all the Kothar are bad or all the Amils are bad
Inspite of continues slagging off of the mainstream guys they are ok, we don't get much hassle
9) There are educated and business people who keep a low profile but do attend the mosques and you get an intellectual discussions
Question I have is, do the progressive have the infrastructure to provide any of this and the answer is negative , you are too few to make an impact
Most of the issues you keep on talking about are of the past, things have moved on, you have been out too long to understand the reality
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Mr asgarali engg where have u been and whats going on with u.so wass up what u have plan now.
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
wellsaid by africawala..
Jazaak Allah Khairan
Jazaak Allah Khairan
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Africawalla quote
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you are too few to make an impact
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Imam Husain only had 72 people as compared to Yazid's army but we still do PURJOSH Mataam
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you are too few to make an impact
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Imam Husain only had 72 people as compared to Yazid's army but we still do PURJOSH Mataam
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Oma stop! dreaming.. enough is enough
ask your husband whether he supports you.
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ask your husband whether he supports you.
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
africawalla,
There are two things here. 1) The truth and the rightness of the reform movement. 2) The lack of support for this cause from the mainstream bohras.
Let's not confuse the two. The second point does not invalidate the first. As I keep saying on this board, the mainstream bohras are lazy, docile and passive - they do not have the guts or even temprament to rock the boat. They will just go with the flow because it is easy and convenient. Those who can afford, pay up the "protection money" to the clergy and those who cannot, they pay up anyway because they want to remain a part of the "protection racket" otherwise knon as a community.
As for your laundry list, I could respond to it point by point but I think it would be a waste of time. You have a lot to learn. The points you list are nothing new. Any private club or organisation can guarantee all this. But the Dawoodi Bohra faith is not a club. So long as the Dai claims to follow the Islamic and fatimid mustalian faith and considers himself the representative of the Imam, he and his administration are duty bound to respect the tenets and traditions of our religion. The point is not how mainstream bohras have "adjusted" to the new reality and are seemingly happy, but whether the Dai is doing the right thing, whether he is fullfilling the imperatives of faith or even the norms of simple morality and justice.
There are two things here. 1) The truth and the rightness of the reform movement. 2) The lack of support for this cause from the mainstream bohras.
Let's not confuse the two. The second point does not invalidate the first. As I keep saying on this board, the mainstream bohras are lazy, docile and passive - they do not have the guts or even temprament to rock the boat. They will just go with the flow because it is easy and convenient. Those who can afford, pay up the "protection money" to the clergy and those who cannot, they pay up anyway because they want to remain a part of the "protection racket" otherwise knon as a community.
As for your laundry list, I could respond to it point by point but I think it would be a waste of time. You have a lot to learn. The points you list are nothing new. Any private club or organisation can guarantee all this. But the Dawoodi Bohra faith is not a club. So long as the Dai claims to follow the Islamic and fatimid mustalian faith and considers himself the representative of the Imam, he and his administration are duty bound to respect the tenets and traditions of our religion. The point is not how mainstream bohras have "adjusted" to the new reality and are seemingly happy, but whether the Dai is doing the right thing, whether he is fullfilling the imperatives of faith or even the norms of simple morality and justice.
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Africawala,
Any jamaat in the world will have more no. of people discussing the wrongs happening in their jamaat ie., how money is extracted from them at different times and goes for the luxuries of aamil, jamaat goons, shazadas, shahzadees and royals.
I have travelled throught india and around the world and have interacted with the bohras (orthrodox) and a majority of them hate the way they are exploited and looted.
A few who belong to the exploiting class will keep on harping about everything is good in the community and the progressives in the community are very few and cannot harm them.
In fact there are more progressives within the orthrodox group than in the baraat group.
It is only due to the terror of kothar that the general bohra is unwilling to rise up openly and take head on with the goons.
surely, i see the time is near when there will be a revolt from within and the goons who exploited will be looted and killed.
Any jamaat in the world will have more no. of people discussing the wrongs happening in their jamaat ie., how money is extracted from them at different times and goes for the luxuries of aamil, jamaat goons, shazadas, shahzadees and royals.
I have travelled throught india and around the world and have interacted with the bohras (orthrodox) and a majority of them hate the way they are exploited and looted.
A few who belong to the exploiting class will keep on harping about everything is good in the community and the progressives in the community are very few and cannot harm them.
In fact there are more progressives within the orthrodox group than in the baraat group.
It is only due to the terror of kothar that the general bohra is unwilling to rise up openly and take head on with the goons.
surely, i see the time is near when there will be a revolt from within and the goons who exploited will be looted and killed.
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Anajmi
"Check out this most interesting DVD. This is how the bohra MEN (not buffalos) have to take care of themselves:
(I had asked my son to get me a dhama dhami movie DVD and he got me:
300: in which 300 spartans fought to death against Xerxes
Humsafar,
You may enjoy this one, no metas though. But a good "fix"
"Check out this most interesting DVD. This is how the bohra MEN (not buffalos) have to take care of themselves:
(I had asked my son to get me a dhama dhami movie DVD and he got me:
300: in which 300 spartans fought to death against Xerxes
Humsafar,
You may enjoy this one, no metas though. But a good "fix"
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
this Xerxes has many many abdes (salves).
And looks very weird has an army of animals (elephants,rhinos......no sheep or buffalos)
And looks very weird has an army of animals (elephants,rhinos......no sheep or buffalos)
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
The progressives keep stressing that there are a lot of people in the Mainstream who are unhappy, then why are they still coming in droves to the mosques , still paying all the so called demands for money , running and fighting to get a chance to do Qodambosis to Amils/bhaisahebs etc and thats 90% of the people i come in contact with.
The question you have to ask yourselves is whay has the mainstream on offer that its so popular which you have not got to offer
The strategy of winning people over by slagging off the mainstream malpractices does not seem to be working
unless you can come to the conclusion that the majority of people in the mainstream are not intelligent or not courageous to take any stand
If thats the case then why are you guys bothered so much to fight their cause when they themselves are not interested in your support
I think the only thing they get from you is a bit of gossip which the bohras love to indulge in
Unless you participate and work from within you have no chance as your contact with the people in the mainstream will remain minimum for you to instigate any change
So guys think of a winning strategy as being not majority you need to be more street wise
The question you have to ask yourselves is whay has the mainstream on offer that its so popular which you have not got to offer
The strategy of winning people over by slagging off the mainstream malpractices does not seem to be working
unless you can come to the conclusion that the majority of people in the mainstream are not intelligent or not courageous to take any stand
If thats the case then why are you guys bothered so much to fight their cause when they themselves are not interested in your support
I think the only thing they get from you is a bit of gossip which the bohras love to indulge in
Unless you participate and work from within you have no chance as your contact with the people in the mainstream will remain minimum for you to instigate any change
So guys think of a winning strategy as being not majority you need to be more street wise
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Africawala,
100% of the "of the people i come in contact with" are speaking against the Syedna.
I guess you are like Mum refusing to LOOK outside your box.
There are a mumber of Progs that are to be LOOK at, just do not ignore them.
Salaams
100% of the "of the people i come in contact with" are speaking against the Syedna.
I guess you are like Mum refusing to LOOK outside your box.
There are a mumber of Progs that are to be LOOK at, just do not ignore them.
Salaams
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
ponga bhori
You may be right that 100% you meet are against but will they support you when it matters , i would think not , they all like the good things they get from the community, there are a lot of hypocrites therefore dont get into false sense of security, none of them will come out therefore you are fighting a lost cause, the progs are very few and they dont take part anyway in the mainstream , unless you are inside you will not be able to change
You may be right that 100% you meet are against but will they support you when it matters , i would think not , they all like the good things they get from the community, there are a lot of hypocrites therefore dont get into false sense of security, none of them will come out therefore you are fighting a lost cause, the progs are very few and they dont take part anyway in the mainstream , unless you are inside you will not be able to change
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Africawala,
I agree with you.
These disatisfied so called progs "hidden in closets" are nothing but "gossip happy", they are of no support to the prog cause. Personally I discourage any such talk with them. They are for all practical purposes with the Dai.
I agree with you.
These disatisfied so called progs "hidden in closets" are nothing but "gossip happy", they are of no support to the prog cause. Personally I discourage any such talk with them. They are for all practical purposes with the Dai.
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Africawalla,
I dont think you r so dump that you dont understand the terror tactics of kothar.
Many people have no choice but to remain forcefully in the mainstream however averse they may be.
Kothar has divided families and friends and if a person leaves, his immidiate family and friends are warned not to have any contact with him.
I dont think you r so dump that you dont understand the terror tactics of kothar.
Many people have no choice but to remain forcefully in the mainstream however averse they may be.
Kothar has divided families and friends and if a person leaves, his immidiate family and friends are warned not to have any contact with him.
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
i know a lotta abde syednas who claim that they pay their dues without any compulsion....but they lie to amil abt their annual incomes so as to save on the wajebaat payable to them....y do they need to lie if the they are paying these dues without any sort of compulsion...y cant they honestly say that i have earned xyz and want to pay abc!!!!......
if an honest survey was done asking ppl how much wud they actually donate ...and how much they end up paying.....trust me theere wud be a huge difference...in the end most of these abde syednas grumble and crib abt how the amil persuaded them to pay such large amounts for wajebaat. wats the use...even if we are to some how assume that these funds are used properly...the niyat of most ppl is corrupted as they are not really making these payments to earn sawab...
if an honest survey was done asking ppl how much wud they actually donate ...and how much they end up paying.....trust me theere wud be a huge difference...in the end most of these abde syednas grumble and crib abt how the amil persuaded them to pay such large amounts for wajebaat. wats the use...even if we are to some how assume that these funds are used properly...the niyat of most ppl is corrupted as they are not really making these payments to earn sawab...
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Aislam
You seem to be out of it, the things you mention dont happen any more
Times have changed and people have become smarter, there is good PR machine
You seem to be out of it, the things you mention dont happen any more
Times have changed and people have become smarter, there is good PR machine
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Alislam,
Yes Africawala is right again.
There is no pressure on the friends & family members,atleast not in my case. My wife continues to attend as usual,my family is encouraged and are invited at the masjid/religious functions.My family & friends have continued to be friends (even those some pro.)
And as Africawala says there is a PR in place too.The Amil himself talks very well with us.
Yes Africawala is right again.
There is no pressure on the friends & family members,atleast not in my case. My wife continues to attend as usual,my family is encouraged and are invited at the masjid/religious functions.My family & friends have continued to be friends (even those some pro.)
And as Africawala says there is a PR in place too.The Amil himself talks very well with us.
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Hah, infact it is the other way arround for me. I am the one who is putting the pressure, albeit with very little effect.
Africawala, I cannot put agree with you, this reform is a lost case. If anything it shall never be, for may be it is what Allah has willed to take the Bhoris on this path.
Africawala, I cannot put agree with you, this reform is a lost case. If anything it shall never be, for may be it is what Allah has willed to take the Bhoris on this path.
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Most of you who pontificate about refroms being "the lost cause" have not even "found" the cause in the first place. A mere disapproval of the system and disengagement from its functions is not enough. When was the last time you did anything to promote the reform movement? Until you do something, until you make an effort and make a commitment and be a "part of the cause", please remember that none of you've earned the right to trash the reforms as a lost casue. The last thing we need is your lazy pessimism and idle comments.
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
touched a wrong nerve Humsafar
We have to understand the reality and work from there
I think we need to think in a higher level and try to do good for all the Bohoras without alieneting a few , as I said slagging off the clergy is not winning you any supporters more making people wary of ur organisation
Think about it that some of your audience have gone through a lot of majlis/madressas etc and slagging the clergy to them will not work
We have to understand the reality and work from there
I think we need to think in a higher level and try to do good for all the Bohoras without alieneting a few , as I said slagging off the clergy is not winning you any supporters more making people wary of ur organisation
Think about it that some of your audience have gone through a lot of majlis/madressas etc and slagging the clergy to them will not work
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
Africawalla,
What makes you think that reform is just "slagging the clergy"? Extortion of money is the most obvious and blatant aspect of this corrupt system, and that's why it gets talked about the most, but this certainly is not the only thing reformist talk about. (By the way, it's those on the inside who never tire of bad-mouthing the clergy.)
Yes people are still part of this system despite all the troubles and humiliations they go through. There are several well understood and documented reasons for this. Not point in going over them yet again.
If anything, the mass support for such a corrupt system is a testament NOT to the failure of the reform movement but a testament to the moral bankruptcy and cowardice of bohras. The reform movement is not going to give you reforms on a platter. Every bohra will have to work for it.
What makes you think that reform is just "slagging the clergy"? Extortion of money is the most obvious and blatant aspect of this corrupt system, and that's why it gets talked about the most, but this certainly is not the only thing reformist talk about. (By the way, it's those on the inside who never tire of bad-mouthing the clergy.)
Yes people are still part of this system despite all the troubles and humiliations they go through. There are several well understood and documented reasons for this. Not point in going over them yet again.
If anything, the mass support for such a corrupt system is a testament NOT to the failure of the reform movement but a testament to the moral bankruptcy and cowardice of bohras. The reform movement is not going to give you reforms on a platter. Every bohra will have to work for it.
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
It could also be a testament to failure of the reform movement from offering a 'real' alternative or an infrastructure to support any sort of alternative solution
It also means that there is a lack of real leaders with vision in the reform movement
It also means that there is a lack of real leaders with vision in the reform movement
Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....
The real alternative is aleady there. Go to Udaipur and see how a reformist jamaat works and how they devote whatever little resources they have to the welfare of the community. We do not make any tamasha or hype about our achievements but there is one thing we enjoy which the likes of you (rich and prospersous and so-called educated bohras) can only dream of: no fear of amils and his henchmen.
BTW, will you pls quit talking from both sides of your mouths? In one breath you justify the corrupt system and in another criticise the clergy and its manipulative ways. Stop being wishy-washy. Take a stand.
BTW, will you pls quit talking from both sides of your mouths? In one breath you justify the corrupt system and in another criticise the clergy and its manipulative ways. Stop being wishy-washy. Take a stand.