Pray for the muslims in Iraq

[Humsafar]

AB,

Please stop distorting my comments. Nobody's talking about what happened 100 years ago. I'm talking about the current context - a context which is rooted in the continuation of American imperialism right from the days of Mark Twain.

Again, I'm not saying that Saudi wahabism is not to blame but you must understand that it does not operate in a vacuum. It is the American/Israeli brutalities that created the fertile grounds for it to grow and flourish - to be taught and learned. When it suited its purposes America actually supported and financed wahabism to be taught and learned (mujahideens in Afghanistan). It is fair to say there would be no Hezbollah if Israel had not invaded Lebanon, no Hamas and Islamic Jihad if Israel had left the Palestinians alone, no al qaeda etc. without Iraq sanctions, American bases. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? There is a cause - American policies - and there is its effect - wahabi inspired terrorism. Remove the cause and you get rid of the effect.

The fact that this phenomenon is relatively recent, has more to do with the rise of Wahabi influence, than with anything America has done as of late (after all the US has been doing that for at least a hundred years, and Israel has occupied Palestine prior to the first Gulf War, right ?)

True, the palestinian issue has been around for 50 years now so why no "Islamic terrorism" then? Because it took that long for Arabs to see through American duplicity. America said it was an honest broker between Israel and Arabs - and the Arab leaders for their own vested interests went along with that fiction. The Arab people were patient all along - but there are limits to anyone's patience. If Palestine was not enough, Lebanon was invaded, Iraq was attacked and made to suffer 10 years of inhuman, immoral and devastating sanctions, add to that the military bases and American control of Arab resource - oil. Do you see any relief, any ray of light in this scenario. When legitimate options to resolve conflicts are missing then the young and angry fall prey to fundamentalist crooks. (Even so, remember the pre-gulf war examples of Palestinian desperations - The first intifadah, Achille Laro, the 1972 Olympics???) It's America that largely creates conditions for terrorism and then proceeds to fight it. Nice racket there, eh!

It is important to have an introspective critical look at the current state of Islam separate from the Israeli Palestinian issue.

Yes it is important, but that is not the topic of this discussion. And if you care to read my posts on the board my criticism on the current state of Islam is more nuanced than your indiscriminate bludgeoning of all things Muslim and Islam with a stick of wahabism.

Once you begin to justify the targeted attack on civilians of any country or political affiliation, there is no turning back.

Correction: I'm not justifying attacks on innocent civilians. I'm trying to understand and explain why terrorists do such things. This is not the same thing as justifying. In any case, you must answer to a strange moral standard that "targeted" attack on civilians in New York, London and Madrid moves you so much but "targeted" attacks against civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Sudan (to name a few) resulting in hundreds of thousands of death does not elicit even a pretence of a complaint. Now that must say something about the world you live in and the culture that shapes your thinking.

Amicus,

In case you have not noticed, there's also America-bashing going on here.

[Al-Muizz]

"In any case, you must answer to a strange moral standard that "targeted" attack on civilians in New York, London and Madrid moves you so much but "targeted" attacks against civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Sudan (to name a few) resulting in hundreds of thousands of death does not elicit even a pretence of a complaint. Now that must say something about the world you live in and the culture that shapes your thinking."

Humsafar:

The "targeted" attacks on innocent Iraqis' and Afghanis' is not carried out under the umbrella of Christian Crusade--like the so called "fundamentalists" are portraying. We as Muslims have to adopt the policy of no-tolerance against these Islamic terrorists. If we justify their actions, and say that they do this because of the US/Israel, then how can you explain the atrocities commited by these folks from Imam Husayn's shahadat to the present? The history of Sunni rule is replete with terrorism. As of Sudan....how did the US perpetuate the ethnic violence in Sudan? How come the "Muslim" countries not interjected into the mess by sending troops, etc?

Anajmi's reaction is typical of an ignorant and bitter human being, who acts on impulse. When we Muslims make ourselves accountable to a higher standard of conduct, then and only then can we expect the world to work with us. To say that Israel and US is responsible for all the sufferings in the Muslim world is plain dumb! Where did you go to school, Anajmi?? You need to read more than just the Wahabi texts for your source of inspiration! We Americans may be "dumb" but I don't see your kind complaining when you want to adopt our lifestyles, and our freedoms of worship. I don't have to hide and pray as a Shia, like I do in Saudi Arabia and other "Sunni" dominated muslim countries. My wife doesn't fear being punished for driving, because she is a woman. I am actually sophisticated enough to believe all people have the right to worship any which way they want, unlike Pakistan and Saudi ,among others. You cannot possibly understand, Anajmi, because you are so primitive in your thinking and so consumed by your jealousy of our freedoms that anyone who says contrary to what you believe is wrong...guess what? NO ONE GIVES A S##T WHAT YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE! JUST DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE THE GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO IMPOSE THEM ON ANYONE!

You can make all excuses in the world about frustrations, lack of jobs, poverty, etc, etc. As long as you have idiots like Anajmi walking around, we will continue to perpetuate such conditions, because it is never us Muslims who created these conditions...no, NO! It's us Americans, Brits, Europeans, Shia, Hindus, etc,etc! The morons we breed in this world!

[Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

I don’t subscribe to your basic premise that the Arabs are resorting to terrorism as a righteous act in support for the Palestinians cause. This is what the Muslim masses have been duped into believing, but their actions prove that they do not give a damn about Palestinians. I urge you to study the treatment of Palestinian refugees in Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Civilized societies offer more basic human rights and dignity to their enemies. To this day Egypt will not grant citizenship to children of Egyptian women who are married to Palestinians, even though they recently passed a law allowing such rights for most other foreigners. Kuwait expelled 10’s of thousands of Palestinians for siding with Saddam, the US didn’t. These are just a few examples exposing the hypocrisy of this so-called Palestinian support you claim these same people are dying for. You may also want to research the Casablanca Protocol, why it was necessary and why none of the Arab states are adhering to it.

In most of the countries mentioned above, a Palestinian does not have a right of re-entry, employment, owning property or access to state funded education. Saeb Erekat himself stated that “host countries should provide the refugees with a dignified living. ... The host countries should allow the refugees to work, to live and to move in dignity until they achieve their right of return”. To most this sounds more like a request to an enemy, than a friend. It is also a fact that Palestinians living in Israel have more basic human rights than those living in the countries that claim to care for for them.

I trust that this blows a hole [no pun intended] in your Blame America First theory. Yes, you are right, there is an indiscriminate bludgeoning of all things American going on.

[Amicus Mellitus]

Whatever their bizzare and twisted logic for some brutes it is OK to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian Muslims ( or even red Vietnamies for that matter), but it is not ok to kill a stray dog on American soil!!!!

If it is the KILLING OF INNOCENT HUMANS we are talking about:
Isralis have killed far more Paletenians than the Palestenias have killed isrelis.
Americans are by far the top most killers of innocent humans. Anyone who tells that American are civilized, is not telling the truth. Barely you will find a country on the face of earth where America has not killed innocents.The only country to have used Atomic bombs on civilians.

NEVER MIND YOUR WRAPPERs, Muslims are the vistims, and likes of AB and Al-Muizz want to tell us stories!!!

Now Al-Muiz.... I just reminded you of Hassan Bin Sabbah and you speak of Sunni Terrorism, you must be out of your mind. As I indicated even the word Assassin in English dictionary has its roots in Shia Terrorism.

On the rights of Shia praying in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan: Al-Muiz I am sorry to say that YOU ARE REALLY IGNORANT:

May I ask
Have you BEEN TO SAUDI ARABIA or PAKISTAN?:

Facts are so obvious that I do not have to prove anythig to you but let me narrate an incident to you.
It was Asr time and I parked my car by the road side and started praying. There comes a Shia: and shouts the hell out of his throat..WHY? because I was praying the sunni way. He was truly mad.

Al-MUIZZ WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS HAPPENED? It happened in Saudi Arabia....Eastern Saudi Arabia....now how would you know about such Shias discrimination against Sunnis in Saudi Arabia ifr you had never been there and speak out of your dreams only

Now you will say Shia mosques blah blah.....Shia are in a very inferior minority in Saudi Arabia and there are more Shia mosques than their population ratio calls for. Every country has its building control procedures, Saudi government will not allow a shia mosque right in the middle of a road simply because of Shia demands and complaints, sunni masjids have similar controls. In neighboring Bahrain (Now how come I speak of Bahrain.....the likes of Al-Muizz should look at the map and then be informed that there is a causeway connecting Bahrain to Saudi Arabia) so in Bahrain there are far too many Maatams than the few sunni masjids. Shias there call their places of worship Maatams and not masjids don't ask me why.

Get your facts right and remember the true Islamic way is What Allah swt and His Rasool (PBUH) taught us.

Amicus

[porus]

Originally posted by Average Bohra:


I don’t subscribe to your basic premise that the Arabs are resorting to terrorism as a righteous act in support for the Palestinians cause.

Not all Arabs and not all Muslims are resorting to terrorism in support of Palestinian issue.

Those who engage in terrorism would also soon destroy all Arab regimes mentioned. Why? One reason is they do not support the Palestinian issue.

Al-qaeeda, now an amorphous leaderless movement, has pan-Arab and pan-Islamic creed at its core. This is based on their interpretation of scriptures. US-UK is a Zionist terror axis rooted in Zionist Christian interpretation of scriptures which equate Islam/Muslims as anti-christ. The Lesser Bush is a Zionist and believes in literal interpretation of Deuteronomy (13:7-11)

Transformation of US-UK civilization into proto-fascism has been achieved by stealthily destroying all the gains of Enlightenement. Ironically, Enlightenment of Western Civilization was made possible by Muslims. But Enlightement bypassed Muslim Civilization.

Enlightement was always opposed by a ruling cabal which had to wait until recent times to show its teeth by developing a military-industrial complex in the West controlled primarily by Zionists.

Not only the Muslims have been duped by this cabal but also most of the US and UK populations. Bush is a Zionist puppet.

Main aim of the Zionist is to usher a war of civilizations. Perpetual war is what benefits them. Study Fox News, a propoganda channel masquerading as News organization.

While the aims and methods of terrorists are questionable, indeed evil, their diagnosis of the present conditions of Mulims is almost completely correct.

[beria85]

Found this interesting piece...makes good reading..

We have deleted this article because we discourge users to cut and past long articles here - it takes up unncessary server space. It's always better to provide a hyperlink to articles you want people to read.

Hope you understand. Thanks.

Admin

<small>[ 07-13-2005, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

[Muslim First]

.

God have mercy on all muslims if Stephen Schwartz and his friends are victorious.

.

[Humsafar]

AB,

Now you're not only distorting my comments and changing tack but also indulging in a "straw man" fallacy.

Nowhere have I said that my basic premise is that "the Arabs are resorting to terrorism as a righteous act in support for the Palestinians cause". You set up this "Palestinian cause" straw man and then proceed to thrash it by giving a laundry list of examples of how Arabs hate Palestinians, how they mistreat refugees etc. and at the end of it, exhausted but triumphant from your keen intellectual exercise, you declare that that should suffice to blow a hole in my "America First" theory.

First of all my basic premise is not what you think it is. Second, intra-Arab racism and contradictions no matter how true is not the topic of discussion here.

My basic premise is this:
"Islamic terrorism" is a response to American terrorism. That both are bad and evil goes without saying. But that doesn't mean that their crimes are equal in terms of moral culpability. One is clearly an aggressor and the other a defender. The aggressor commands the most powerful and deadly military machine the world has ever known and the defender is weak and desperate and whose defence therefore is necessarily flawed, counter-productive and ultimately tragic.

My conclusion is this:
Let America end its terrorism and thus help put an end to "Islamic terrorism".

My beef is this:
Why do people who rant and rave uncontrollably against "Islamic terrorism" turn a blind eye to American terrorism? What kind of moral world they must live in that they can see one evil but not the other - and, this gets my goat, yet have the gumption to talk about civilised behaviour and human rights?

Yes, you are right, there is an indiscriminate bludgeoning of all things American going on.
My comment on America bashing was meant to be an ironic self-parody. But of course, like everything else, you missed the point. I'm not your typical, garden-variety America basher. If it is of any comfort to you, I'm also an India basher (kashmir), China basher (tibet), Turkey basher (kurds), Indonesia (suharto) basher (East Timor - now free), sayedna bahser (bohras), mullas/priests basher (fundamentalism/orthodoxy) etc. etc.- in short, all kinds of aggression and exploitation basher where the powerful exploit and prey on the weak.

Porus,
Thanks for your post. But I'm not sure whether I agree with your "Zionist" theory. I normally respect your views as sensible and knowledgeable, so I'm sure you have your reasons to make such a claim. I'll defer my judgement on that. But the policy of "perpetual war" that you mention is quite valid. It reminds me of a book by Gore Vidal by the name "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace ". It's a short and perceptive book, and Vidal is a pleasure to read given his erudition and sardonic humour - a ture inheritor of Mark Twain.

Al Muizz,
So what if The "targeted" attacks on innocent Iraqis' and Afghanis' is not carried out under the umbrella of Christian Crusade--like the so called "fundamentalists" are portraying. The point is not the Muslim propaganda and how they portray American attacks. It doesn't matter under what "umbrella" it is carried out - it is terrorism nonetheless. And, for god's sake I'm not justifying "their (Muslims') actions". Sure, we should have "no tolerance against these Islamic terrorists". But you are forgetting the vital part of the equation: we should have no tolerance against American terrorism too.

[Muslim First]

.

Why Are They Killing Us?
by Patrick J. Buchanan

http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=6630

Terrorism Comes with Empire
by Jacob G. Hornberger,

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0507c.asp

.

[porus]

Humsafar,

I make the "Zionist" claim on the basis of two strands of Zionism which have recently found common cause with the US political establishment.

First there is Jewish Zionism dedicated to expand boundaries of Israel beyond their 1948 boundaries by annexing to Israel lands belonging to what is currently Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Iraq.

Second there is Christian Zionism which emboldened itself at the same time as the creation of the state of Israel. THese Christian Zionist saw the creation of Israel as the fulfilment of Biblical prophecy. This to them is a harbinger of end-time and re-appearance of Christ. They believe that it is their duty to arm Israel to prepare for and hasten the arrival the Messiah, who will then convert all Jews to Christianity.

Of course, Jews know of this stand of Christian Zionists but they support the movement for their own ends. That is, they know that the Bush is an ardent Christian Zionist and can thus be manipulated by Israel to serve its purpose.

I have always considered "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a document planted by anti-Jews. But its strategy is too successful for most of us to ignore.

The Project for New American Century authors, the neo-cons are mostly Jewish Zionists and serve Israel. Jews are preponderent in the US and UK media, Entertainment and Finance. They have disproportionate representation, relative to their numbers, in US Congress and the UK parliament.

How is it possible that a US president is able to serve the interests of relatively small number Jews against a billion Muslims? This has been a remarkable success story of the Jews. There is an act of congress, recently passed, which criminalizes any criticism of Israel on media as well as college campuses. This is because of total sway over the hearts and minds of Americans by 5 generations of Jewish propaganda. Bush is puppet because he is subject to the same culture as every American.

Finally, the military-industrial complex is only possible if the mind of average american has been completely dumbed down by media.

Congress, at the behest of Zionist masters, play on fears and allocate most of the taxpayer monies to Defence which in turn provides contracts to favored Industries like Haliburton. Industries, in turn, create armaments, which need to be disposed of because new ones are continually developed. They destroy these old weapons by inventing wars all over the world. And cycle repeats ad infinitum.

Conspiracy theory? Too close to truth as I see it.

ps I too like Gore Vidal. I have not read Mark Twain. I started reading Huck Finn, but language put me off. That was many years ago. But, of course, I have seen movies of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn.

[porus]

MF, Thanks for the link to Pat Buchanan article.

Assertion here is that suicide bombing is a result of foreign occupation of Muslim Lands and not anything to do with "Islamic Fundamentalism". I wonder whether it is possible to differentiate between terror attacks in Muslim lands and those carried out in non-Muslim or occupied Muslim Lands. Are suicide attacks confined to the latter?

Complete and eye-opening interview with Robert Pape, author of "Dying to Win : The Logic of Suicide Terrorism" is at
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le9453.htm

[Humsafar]

Porus,

I would agree with you at a very general level. The Zionist/Jewish influence on the media, government policy is probably true. And with the ascendancy of the Rapture movement and the American Century Project in recent years it is obvious that Zionist agenda has a role to play in US/UK policies. And perhaps a larger role to play in the current US administration.

But at a more basic level, imperial policies (whether of US, Britain, Ottoman, Roman) stem from straightforward power concepts: control of world resources for profit and pleasure of the powerful sectors of society. It so happens that currently Zionist agenda dovetails famously with this perennial elitist, ruling class agenda.

If, for argument's sake let's say, it was in Zionism's interest to leave Muslims and their oil alone, I don't think the military-industrial complex would have gone along with that. The military industrial complex is the defining reality. Zionists are piggybacking on it. And quite a ride it is.

[Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

My understanding of your basic premise was derived from your statements quoted below.

America's financial and military support for Israel's cruel, inhuman and unjustified occupation of Palestine is the primary cause of "Muslim" anger and “terrorism

there would be no 9/11 or the so-called "islamic terrorism" if Israel had not occupied Palestine

Regards,

-AB

[Humsafar]

AB,
We may have our difference of opinion but please don't make me lose respect for you. You quote me selectively. In both instances you forget to notice I also mention the presence of American occupation/troops as a factor. So here they are again (sorry to inflict this again on readers):

1:
much of the "Muslim" trouble that we have in the world today is the result of America's single-minded aim to control countries and its resources. America's financial and military support for Israel's cruel, inhuman and unjustified occupation of Palestine is the primary cause of "Muslim" anger and “terrorism”. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are no doubt authoritarian states but are by no means the "biggest terrorists". It is the US that has invaded and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, it's Israel that has occupied Palestine. They are the biggest terrorists.

2:
there would be no 9/11 or the so-called "islamic terrorism" if Israel had not occupied Palestine and the US did not have military bases in Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia.

[porus]

Originally posted by Humsafar:

But at a more basic level, imperial policies (whether of US, Britain, Ottoman, Roman) stem from straightforward power concepts: control of world resources for profit and pleasure of the powerful sectors of society.

Absolutely. And it is the economically impoverished in Imperial Countries that pay the heaviest price in terms of blood and lives. This point is made in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911". Families of Congressmen do not put themselves in harms way. It is the blacks and poor whites, who get sucked into patriotic mumbo-jumbo.

Originally posted by Humsafar:
Porus,

It so happens that currently Zionist agenda dovetails famously with this perennial elitist, ruling class agenda.

Not only that. Zionism, I believe, is the puppet-master of this elite as far as the Muslim World is concerned. They have stranglehod on American power and Muslims bear the brunt of their adventures to subjugate the world. It would be interesting to see what response India and China come up with. I fear for India, because its elite would soon join anti-Muslim crusade, and they could not care less about how many Indians they kill in the process. And Israel is only too willing to manipulate the Indian elite.

I hope that my perception and conclusion is incorrect.

[anajmi]

porus,

I think your perception and conclusion is absolutely correct, however, you need to be a little more optimistic.

The Zionist agenda has been thrown into disarray because of the iraqi insurgents. And the christian right that is working towards hastening the arrival of the messiah is hastening its own downfall.

Allah says in Surah Ale-Imran

003.054
YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
PICKTHAL: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
SHAKIR: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

[Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

I am hoping we can engage in civil discourse without taking things personally or losing mutual respect.

Porus,

In a voluntary army, it is common to have the economically impoverished sign up in droves, as the compensation is meager and the risks very high. This is not unique to the US, but a prevalent phenomenon worldwide.

The biased support for Israel in the United States is more basic (for lack of a better term) than the Zionist Conspiracy theory you espouse. The average American doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Zionism, or Israel and the majority don’t know what Zionism is. The reason is entrenched in domestic politics.

Of the 270 votes needed to be elected president, NY, CA, and FL account for 113 or 41%. Approximately 3.3 million or 55% of the 6 million Jewish Americans live in those 3 states. 80% of those eligible Jewish voters vote and are politically active. It is unlikely that one can be elected the President of the US by losing NY, CA and FL. The median income of Jewish Americans is significantly higher than the rest of the population. More importantly they are very involved in local politics, civics, legal, media and political issues. They contribute heavily to both parties, are very conservative but generally vote Democratic primarily because they fear the Christian Coalition support for the Republican party.

In a nutshell, to be elected, or re-elected to a political office in the US, you need that support, regardless of your personal feelings toward Israel. It has nothing to do with the biblical prophecy you mention. Politicians in America are knowingly biased toward Israel. Any other minority can claim the same influence if they can match the demographics. Alas, the wonder of free democracies.

I am really curious to learn about the legislation recently passed, which criminalizes any criticism of Israel on media as well as college campuses.. I normally stay on top of legislation regarding issues I am interested in, and that one I missed.

I would sincerely appreciate a link or more information so I can read up on it.

Regards,

- AB

[porus]

AB,

Why would anyone voluntarily choose to get into armed forces in a land of opportunity? No one would. But, ruling elite deliberately rations education and industry to ensure recruits through brochures and jingoistic brainwashing. Those with money and education can get away even if it was not a voluntary army.

Americans are dumb and they do not know the subtle manipulation of their minds in support of Zionism, whether they consciously recognize it or not. Zionists have succeeded to a degree which makes it impossible for an average American to see any positive in ordinary Arabs/Muslims. They will say they do not know about Zionism nor do they care about it. That only underlines the deep degree of brainwashing they have received.

Like anti-terrorist legislation in Britain which is used against British Muslims, the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act 0f 2004, will be used against anti-zionist (read anti-israel) sentiments, especially in colleges. The act is supposed to monitor foreign countries. But all legislation have counter-intuintive results. Act will produce most "criminals" in the US of Arab/Muslim stock. Far right white groups will escape.

Anti-Jewish conspiracy theory? If you think that, you have been too deeply embedded into unelightened American culture.

[porus]

AB,

I am not talking about US election farce taking place every so often. I am talking about an elitist cabal which has most politicians in its pockets.

[tahir]

porus,

I fear for India, because its elite would soon join anti-Muslim crusade, and they could not care less about how many Indians they kill in the process. And Israel is only too willing to manipulate the Indian elite.

These fears would have come true if the rightist party BJP had stayed in power for a second consecutive term. They had almost succeded in brainwashing the "elite" of India towardrs blind patriotism closely associated with anti muslim notions. It was shocking to see the majority of Indian professionals (mostly IT) in US supporting the rightist ideology and generously funding them even in the face of Gujrat pogrom of 2001.

Fortunately now, the winds are changing. INC (Congress party) is back in power. Though this party has a history of using muslims as a vote bank, they for one, do not make opportunistic international alliances which could result in suppression. Jawaharlal Nehru founded Non Allign Movement (NAM) and avoided being clubbed with any of the two poles of the world - the NATO and the Eastern communist block. He stood his ground inspite of all the brow beating by the US against the economically and politically frail India of 50s. And I must say that INC still carries that vision even if Nehru is no more around. It may have economic relations with Israel but would never accept a modicum of its political ideology.

[Al-Muizz]

AM:

Yes, i have been to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, etc, etc. I have not been to India or Pakistan. We have worked with many hospitals and agencies involved with healthcare.

You assume the US created Al-Qaeda and that terrorism is in response to "American" terrorism. Well, the US went to Afghanistan on their mission to rid off the Soviets and the communists-who, by the way, were opposed by the entire Muslim country, communism being ungodly and all. The mistake we did was to think that the Afghanis' would settle down and be peaceful after Soviet withdrawal. The other mistake we did was to let the Afghani border be so porous...the same problem in Iraq. Our forces have to secure the borders of Iraq and prevent by force all those "Jihadists" flooding from Afghanistan, Saudi, Pakistan, Kuwait, etc.

BUT the BIGGEST underlying issue is this. How can you convince RELATIVELY WELL TO DO KIDS, WHO ARE EDUCATED to be suicide bombers? It's easy, actually. You tell them that they are educated in the western culture and see how corrupt the culture is? See how anti-Islamic it is? See how their cultural influences are eroding Islam in "Muslim" countries? You tell these kids that they have the opportunity to know the real evil of the west and that others who are poor are there because the west provides all the resources to Israel and not to the Palestinians. You encourage them to think they can make a change in western policies by killing a few of them to make your point that they do not listen to you-and you teach them that's all kosher by Islamic laws!

WE HAVE TO GO AFTER THESE CORRUPT MULLAHS!

[anajmi]

How can you convince RELATIVELY WELL TO DO KIDS, WHO ARE EDUCATED to be suicide bombers? It's easy, actually. You tell them that they are educated in the western culture and see how corrupt the culture is? See how anti-Islamic it is?

And how come it didn't work with you? Cause you are an uneducated moron? Just asking.

[tahir]

An instance of how the tags are attached and public opinions formed

Reformers and hardliners

[anajmi]

Al-Muizz,

As far as foreign "jihadists" are concerned, some background information is in order. See, the American Administration is banking upon the thinking power of morons like you to be able to continue their illegal wars to kill innocents and steal their resources.

This foreign "jihadists" is more bull shit that is being fed to you and you are lapping it up. They want you to believe that the Iraqis are very happy with the american "liberators", its the foreigners that want chaos, even though I guarantee that you haven't seen a shred of evidence. Or may be a Syrian passport mysteriously appeared in a blown car when everything else was burnt to dust!!

How educated do you need to be to figure that one out? I guess a little bit more than you are!!

[Humsafar]

Al-Muizz,

You say you are medical doctor - and I'm sure a good one - so please stick to that and continue to do the good stuff you're doing for the humanity.
Social and political commentary is not your thing. I'll not directly respond to your comments because they are too asinine to even contemplate.

I'll just say this: If I say you are brainwashed you will find it offensive. So let me put it this way. You've been very well "educated" to look at the world and life from the narrow perspective that dominant culture provides. Your source of information on world (American) affairs I can pretty well guess is no more than the cable networks. You don't read anything more than the local rag - or perhaps the NYT, the establishment paper. With these sources of news and analysis at your command, is it any wonder that you conclude "WE HAVE TO GO AFTER THESE CORRUPT MULLAHS!" ? (Of course, you did not mean the ones in the Kothar?)

You speak in defence of the Kothar on this board. And you support your (American) government's policies. Do you detect a pattern here? No? Let me tell you. You are aligned to power - without even knowing about it. Your upbringing, education etc. have schooled you to accept authority of your masters (Dai, president, boss, bureaucrat, news anchor) without question. You've been socialised into the ways of seeing the world as you are told to see it. You've internalised the values of your masters - the elite of which - as a doctor - you're no doubt a part.

Think about it, it's people like you who support and help perpetuate corrupt outfits like the Kothar and the brutal, imperial powers like the US. Please read Aldous Huxley's "The brave new world" and see if you can identify yourself in it.

Of course all this may not make sense to you. But it will the day you figure out the irony and the mindset embedded in your statement: "that's all kosher by Islamic laws!"

[Average Bohra]

Porus,

The land of opportunity provides the opportunity but does not feed it with a spoon. I am unsure of the point you are trying to make. People join the military for various reasons including patriotic, financial, benefits, retirement or education. This is just one of the many opportunities available to them. Furthermore, it is arrogant and condescending to assume that people who don’t agree with your elaborate conspiracy theories are somehow dumb, brainwashed and manipulated, thought it does give one a false sense of a superiority complex.

The method used by the Zionists to influence US policy is available to any other group, should they choose to use it; the Muslim don’t.

If elections are a “farce”, a free market is “rationing” of industry, a public education system is rationing education, and everyone needs to be guaranteed the identical opportunity, as you seem to suggest, then that utopian vision has already been tried by the communists and failed miserably.

[Al-Muizz]

Anajmi:

I'm a Harvard educated surgeon. Who are you, moron?

[Al-Muizz]

Humsafar:

The likes of you and anajmi, i'm afraid, will always remain backwords. Go on to your internet cafes and pretend you know that the world actually buys your BS... .the rest of us actually make a difference in this owrld...that's what separates losers like you and the rest of us.

The pnly pattern I see, Humsafar you loser, is that you and your cronies in Saudi and Pakistan love the cycle of laziness and ineptitude. Perhaps you should work in any firm in the US and see how things are done in a successful country!

[kalim]

Average Bohra mentioned that any minority can have as great a influence on US as the Jewish lobby does only if it can "match the demographics". This is very naive thinking. One reason for the influence of Jewish lobby in the US is that since the 1970s there has been a strong alignment of evangelical Christianity with conservative Jews. Such a alignment would not have been possible in the past. Evangelical Christan's, who were anti-semitic just a few decades ago, are now the greatest supporters of Israel. Their thinking is in a large part driven by Biblical and messianic ideas. Christian conservatives provide political base for most Republicans and many of them, specially the leadership, are deeply influenced by messianic ideas. It is then not surprising that they can pressurize politicians to take strong pro-Israel stands. For example, Senator James Inhofe of Oklahoma gave a speech in which he said that he supports Israel because it is a strategic ally, and "because God said so". Backed by evangelical Christians, conservatives in Congress have worked to drive US policy to the right, taking an even more pro-Israel stand than the administration. Even liberal Jewish people wanting a negotiated settlement with Palestine are alarmed by the political clout of the evangelicals. They fear that strengthening of the hardliners in Israel and the US can mean that it is more difficult to take the peace process forward.

To see how much acceptable the Christian support is to the Jewish lobbyist I will cite two examples. Jerry Falwell, in 1999, declared that the Antichrist is alive and Jewish. In spite of this Falwell was not castigated by the same Jewish groups who would have otherwise made a ruckus. Some Christian groups, called the "Dispensationalists" support Israel because they believe that it helps Christianity: once Jews occupy the Holy Land Jesus will rise again and destroy all unbelievers (which includes Jews and Muslims) in the ensuing Apocalypse. Despite knowing this many Jewish leaders are still accepting their support as long as their (the Christians) support advances Israel's prosperity, security and survival.

I don't see how Muslims could every place themselves in this sort of influential positions. The American public is unfortunately very poorly informed about everything except football, baseball or other sport scores. Due to intense media focus on the Jewish suffering during the Holocaust they have developed a deep collective guilt. So they are ready to support, without any true understanding, politicians and church leaders who take a pro-Israel stand. With the September 11th attacks and ensuing spotlight on Muslim violence, most Americans consider Muslims as terrorists. Now with the attacks in London some question even if seemingly well educated and westernized Muslims may not one day blow themselves up for their "hatred for all things Western". In such a political climate how can the Muslims make themselves a politically influential minority?

Muslims too are driven by scriptural thinking. Those who keep harping that terrorism is not "Islamic" conveniently forget that the terrorists use the same Qur'an and hadith to justify their violent actions. If following the Qur'an and sunnah are considered to be a sign of a "true Muslim" then these terrorists can be labeled as such. It is the "moderate" Muslims who have not looked carefully enough at the Qur'an and hadith to know this. Even the Bohras can't take a moral high ground. Read the chapter on Jihad in Daim al-Islam and you will discover that the ideas the Imams espouse are no different than other virulent forms of Islam we all criticize so much on this board.

Only if humans realize they are humans and not "Muslims", "Christians", "Jews" etc. can any progress be possible. A humanistic ethics and morality, not driven by the conception of God and not dictated by His scriptures, is possible. I know that many on this board share this view (of secular humanistic ethics) even though they call themselves "Progressive Bohras". Only such an ethics can highlight the true "human-ness" of all people irrespective of the religion they belong to.

[Average Bohra]

Kalim,

One reason for the influence of Jewish lobby in the US is that since the 1970s there has been a strong alignment of evangelical Christianity with conservative Jews.

This is very naive thinking. Let's get one thing straight; the Jewish lobby in the US is aligned with every politically significant group in the US, and this is common knowledge.

Now let's separate fact from fiction. Jewish Americans vote overwhelmingly Democratic and are no fans of the Christian Coalition. Furthermore, 25/26 Congressman and 9/11 Jewish Senators are Democrats and among the most vocal opponents of Bush and the Iraq War. Having said that, the lobby does have extremely close ties to the evangelicals, Baptists, Hispanics, Asian and Black politicians. They are very astute students of politics, diplomacy and influence, and every other minority should and can learn a lot by studying their strategy, instead of being critical of it, while the muslims should start with introducing the word "diplomacy" in their vocabulary.

Regards,

-AB