Ismaili Interpretation of 2.28

[jawanmardan]

I have debated on this board

An amusing definition of your antics, but hardly apt.

You forgot…I copied and pasted from the website that you asked me to refer to

I didn’t forget. Although you and particularly you learned colleague “Muslim First”, seem to have a fetish for scouring the web without regard to referencing, and cross checking your material, or any other inconveniences which would stand in the way of your bigotries.

Here is one other question I have

Another one? Oh my!

Do you think that when Allah said he has perfected the religion he meant something different

First one must define “Perfection”, and then define “religion”.

Here are just some questions worth considering before you separate someone from their limb (after all they have been life long companions):

1) What aspect of the Qu’ran am I analyzing?
2) How can terms be defined?
3) What’s the relevance of the Arab population from which they were drawn ?
4) What is the context relative to which aspects are analyzed?
5) What are the limits of the analysis?
6) Who is the target of the inferences?
7) How does the construction and layout of the Qu’ran affect my analysis?

For me Islam is a collective of tangible universal values, and belief that evolves and develops, as human society evolves and develops, as technology evolves and develops, as my body is evolving and developing right now.

Salafi of course do not believe in evolutionary principles, and are already perfected (as we can see from the societies in which they reside).

According to you, I’m supposed have conjured “formless essence”, "Ta’wil" and "Batin" out of my top hat, along with a dapper white rabbit (I’ve named her Pom) Now thats magic!

Anajmi, before your literalist interpretation leads you to disaster; consider the words of Socrates:

“An unexamined life, is not worth living”.

Salaam

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
porus,

Is Daaimul Islam an interpretation or the quran?

This is a question from an ex-Bohra, who repudiated the religion of his parents, by claiming that he had studied all the religions of the world in his short life, and decisively concluded that Wahhabism/Salafism is the only true religion. He even claims to have experienced God.

Can you imagine a person who has experienced God to be in a state of bigotry? All others who have reported experience of God are in a state of all-inclusive love for all creation, regardless of class, creed or color.

How can he ask this question about Daaimul Islam if he had the slightest inkling of what it or Bohaism is? We can rest aside his claim about knowing the religion of Bohras or Ismailies from this question alone?

From the pont of view of the Bohras, anajmi is a Kafir because he has repudiated Imam. And that point is consistent with their theology. And Bohra bigots will sing the same song about anajmi being kafir as anajmi sings about me being a kafir.

As far as the Muslim First is concerned, I have pointed out before that his main purpose in life is to ridicule Bohras/Ismailies. And he scours the Net for any evidence he can lay his hands oon. He mostly gets it from the sites where ignorant Bohras/Ismailies steeped in the fantasy version of their religions have their say. He could, of course, spend his time learning about the fabulous treasure of enlightened Sunni thought. But no, fanaticism has more immediate appeal to him.

So, any question about esoteric Ismailism/Bohraism asked by these two individuals is best ignored. They do not ask to learn, but to ridicule.

[anajmi]

porus,

From the pont of view of the Bohras, anajmi is a Kafir because he has repudiated Imam. And that point is consistent with their theology. And Bohra bigots will sing the same song about anajmi being kafir as anajmi sings about me being a kafir.

Bohra theology is not what I am interested in. I am a kafir according to hindu theology too. Can a bohra show me that I am a kafir according to the quran? I can show that you are a kafir according to the quran, and you seem to agree with that definition. Or have you decided to change your mind?

And you are right, I no longer ask to learn cause there is nothing that you can teach me. In the beginning I was trying to learn but didn't get any answers. Never have and never will. Look at jawanmardan's response. Not a single question answered. The Ismailis or the bohras for that matter, cannot answer questions even about the fundamentals of their religion without going into taawil/batin which can't be verified from the quran or the sunnah.

jawanmardan,

Ismailis have developed an art of answering questions with more questions. Try answering a simple question with an answer for a change. Can you show me where in the quran does it say that you need to Obey Allah, the prophet and the Wali Al-Amr?

[anajmi]

porus,

All others who have reported experience of God are in a state of all-inclusive love for all creation, regardless of class, creed or color.

According to you, God cannot be experienced. So all the others who have reported experiences of God are just as delusional as I am. Besides, I don't hate anybody, I love everybody. Even those who cannot answer simple questions. You insist on my being something which I have stated time and again that I am not cause it becomes easier for you to disregard what I am saying. Remember the definition of a straw man that I linked to sometime back?

I consider you to be a coward who needs wahabism to defend his own misguided theories.

[porus]

I consider you to be a coward who needs wahabism to defend his own misguided theories.

I am a coward, but I have never used Wahabism to defend my theories. I have a model of god, man and universe which I put forward as one possible explanation of life. I do not claim it to be the truth, the only truth, and the whole truth.

Both you and Muslim First protest that you are not Wahabis. From what I know of them, your postings reveal a great deal of Wahabism in it. May be you have unconsiously imbibed their teachings.

Even Bohras and Ismailies will call me a Kafir. That would be accurate from their point of view. I do not call you a Kafir, but you are according to the Bohra faith.

As usual, you can have the last word on this thread. I only hope Ismailies do not respond any further. You rightly say that they, like me, have nothing useful to say to you or MF, both perfect Muslims.

[porus]

I consider you to be a coward who needs wahabism to defend his own misguided theories.

I am a coward, but I have never used Wahabism to defend my theories. I have a model of god, man and universe which I put forward as one possible explanation of life. I do not claim it to be the truth, the only truth, and the whole truth.

Both you and Muslim First protest that you are not Wahabis. From what I know of them, your postings reveal a great deal of Wahabism in it. May be you have unconsiously imbibed their teachings.

Even Bohras and Ismailies will call me a Kafir. That would be accurate from their point of view. I do not call you a Kafir, but you are according to the Bohra faith.

As usual, you can have the last word on this thread. I only hope Ismailies do not respond any further. You rightly say that they, like me, have nothing useful to say to you or MF, both perfect Muslims.

[anajmi]

porus,

If you can answer simple questions with simple answers, we can avoid these idiotic posts which are pointless. As I said before, wahabism is your defense for avoiding questions that you do have answers for. You need wahabism more than I do. If you think I am a wahabi, then fine. Now answer my question. Where in the quran does it say that you have to Obey Allah, the prophet and the Wali Al-Amr or the Waliullah? Not that I expect an answer since you've already posted your last post but what the heck.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
porus,

Now answer my question. Where in the quran does it say that you have to Obey Allah, the prophet and the Wali Al-Amr or the Waliullah? Not that I expect an answer since you've already posted your last post but what the heck.

OK, I will respond.

I think your question has been answered by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq in his commentary on several ayats, whose revellations he sets in historical context (asbab an-nuzul). This has been adequately summarized in the chapter on Walaayat in Daaim al_Islam. Please get a copy of Poonawal translation from Amazon.com.

[anajmi]

porus,

Is that the Pillars of Islam? It is not $60. A used one is available for $303. Is this what I am looking for?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... 203&sr=1-6

If it is then unfortunately $303 is not what I am ready to spend at this time.

[anajmi]

porus,

Would this be the correct one?

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/s ... 0195684353

[porus]

anajmi,

The amazon link is the correct one. I see they have no copy left to sell. The OUP link is for the Da'aimul Islam chapter on "Prayer" only.

Your best bet is to get a copy from a major University Library. If you have friend in one of these Universities, ask him/her to borrow it for you.

The chapter on Walayat is quite long, running over 100 pages in the Arabic version. So, to make a summary may not do justice to the original.

[anajmi]

porus,

The OUP link says 591 pages which is only a page less than on Amazon.

[porus]

anajmi,

The OUP link does not indicate the Volume but a similar book at Amazon.co.uk refers to this book as Volume I.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/toc/ ... 8&n=266239

I think this is incorrect. Having looked at the contents on the above link, this is Volume II of Daaimul Islam. The chapter on Walaayat is in Volume One, which would appear to be no longer available.

[anajmi]

porus,

I just ordered the book from OUP. I think it is the correct book. Check out this link

http://www.amazon.com/Pillars-Ismail-Ku ... 26-4488817

This is the hardcover version of the paperback that I ordered from OUP. This is what the Table of Contents looks like. There is a link to search inside the book. The Table of contents looks like this -

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0195655 ... eader-link

[porus]

anajmi,

Unfortunately the OUP link does not give the table of contents for verification.

The amazon.com links you posted are for the correct book.

My doubt arises from this:

Amozon.com book has ISBN of 0195655354, whereas the OUP book you just ordered has ISBN of 0195684354.

It is possible that they are the same book and the ISBN difference is due to one being hardcover and the other paperback. Good luck. I will be interested in your comments after you have read the book at least until the completion of the chapter on Walaayat.

[anajmi]

If the paperback is not the correct book then I will order the book from amazon. I will let you know what I think afterwards.

[porus]

It appears that the Poonawala translation of Volume I does not have "Volume I" in the title.

[anajmi]

I can only hope that it consits of both the volumes although I doubt it, as volume 2 is a 600 page book by itself. Since I've already ordered it I'll just wait and see.

[porus]

anajmi,

And the Volume I (from the OUP link) is actually volume II of the original publication.

I am afraid you have ordered the wrongbook. It is worth having, though, if you are interested in the Bohra fiqh. I suggest you cancel your order and instead order this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Pillars-Ismail-Ku ... 63&sr=11-1

It is $55.87. (Or you can wait to confirm that it is the right book)

[anajmi]

porus,

I checked this on OUP before ordering

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/? ... sults=true

It has volume 2 as a separate book. I ordered the one which has no volume label on it assuming it would be volume 1 as the description matched the one on Amazon. The description of volume 2 on OUP matches the description of volume 2 on Amazon.

The paperback edition on Amazon (which has a volume 2 label) has the exact same ISBN as the paperback on OUP for Volume 2

http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/genera ... 0195689075

http://www.amazon.com/Pillars-Islam-Per ... 63&sr=11-1

I think I have ordered the right book. But I'll just wait and see.

[anajmi]

Check out this link on Amazon.ca

http://www.amazon.ca/Pillars-Islam-Devo ... 41&sr=1-10

It has the same ISBN as the one I ordered and you check the table of contents link of another edition of this book and it has the chapter on wilaayat.

[Shahu]

The Pillars of Islam Hardcover Volume I ISBN: 0195655354

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195655354/

The Pillars of Islam Hardcover Volume II ISBN: 0195667840

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDet ... D0%26x%3D0

[jawanmardan]

Anajmi,

The book is Qaidi Al-Numans Fatimid Islamic jurisprudence, based on Imam Jaffar Al-Saddiq.

[muhammad khan]

Congratulations for the new Baby! May Allah bless you, your Baby and your family.....Ameen

as God ordered his creatures to obey Him, the Prophet and Wali Al-Amr.

Can our Ismaili brothers point out where in the quran does Allah order his creatures to obey Him, the prophet and Wali Al-Amr?

Anajami Bro, Dr. Sheikh Khodr Hamawi indtroduction is not an official one. I have not seen any documents where Aga khan endorsed his book as official shia ismaili introduction. As I told you in the past Ismailies are free to have their own interpretation.

Anyway for your question of GOD ordering his creatures to obey Him, the Prophet and Wali Al-Amr

Here from Quran

O YE WHO BELIEVE ! OBEY ALLAH, AND OBEY THE MESSENGER , AND THOSE CHARGED WITH AUTHORITY (Ulil Amr) AMONG YOU.(QUR'AN 4:59)

I don't know the Sunni interpretation but we ismailies believes that 'Ulil Amr' hear means Imam of the time.

[muhammad khan]

Here is one other question I have. In the quran Allah mentions that he has perfected the religion of Islam for mankind and no other religion will be accepted of them.

Ismailism, as we all know, has introduced many modifications to the Islam as it was preached by the prophet. Do you think that when Allah said he has perfected the religion he meant something different? What is the taawil/batin of that particular ayah of the quran according to your living Imam?

Bro Anajami,

Here is the answer

We Shias believe that Allah perfected the religion , and the religion become perfect when prophet muhammad obeyed allahs farman by making Ali as the leader of muslims after his dealth.

The Messenger of Allah [s] declared:

"It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise).

For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).

"O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

For the answer please read this article and then we will discus.

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

[porus]

The chapter on Walaayat in Da'aimul Islam begins with the quotation of ayat 4:59. Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and his father Imam Muhammad al-Baqir then elaborate on Walaayat by explaining other ayats of the Quran.

[jawanmardan]

Salaam, Porus,

I’m grateful to you brother for pointing out that Da’imul Islam is available in the west. I had tried ordering it several years ago from India and was unable to obtain a copy.

Do, you have a copy, yourself?

Jazak’Allah khair

[anajmi]

br. Muhammad Khan,

If you had been a day early in your reply, you would've saved me $35.

[muhammad khan]

Money spend for the search of the knowledge is not waste.

May be GOD wants you to read this book.

[muhammad khan]

Ismailism, as we all know, has introduced many modifications to the Islam as it was preached by the prophet.

I don't agree. Because we believe that there can not be a single change to Islam.

A few Khoja Ismailies (which I am not) who are converted from hindus might have kept their Hindu traditions (diminishing in number very fast). But other than that neither majority of Ismailies (including many khoja ismailies) nor Ismaili Imamat goes against of Sunnath of Rasul.

As now I live among so many khoja Ismailies, their tradition is a little different than mine, but I don't feel there is any wrong in their tradition as they are following same Allah as I do with a little different rituals. But they do follow fundamental values of Quran as all Muslims do.