We are true bohras

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<br>Huzaif Said:-"And the Imams and the Dais are trustees to some of His secrets"<p>Prove this statement <p>Is it said in Quran?<p>Is it recorded in Sunnah of Rasul SAW?<p>If Immamat was devine, then, Why Allah SWT did not protect Imaamat like he has protected Quran?<p>Wasalaam<p>

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Dear Khairan,<br>First part we agree.<p>Second part.<br>You are partially correct...their is a fundamental difference between books of ilm and books of "education". The books you refer to as being readily available come with a purchase price and a retail thrust. If I wrote a book on engines...I would publish it for the point of selling it to the masses. You may know of the international copyright law which prohibits the copying of a patent "idea" for I believe 17 yrs (maybe 25 yrs). Then the "idea" is open for trade.<p>This is not the intent of the books of ilm. The books of ilm are available from a single source outlet who maintains and publishes them. You may think this repressive...but look at the alternative. The books of sunni hadiths have been proven munipulated by the publishers in editing and extracting parts of the hadiths. Even those books are approved by a sunni alim from either al'Azhar or King Fahd University or both before considered legimate. All authorized books of ilm of the twelvers are first approved and given permission to be published by the leading Ayatuallah at the time.<p>You consider this secretive...it is more to protect the books from being distorted.

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Qiyam<br>It is imposable for any sane person to accept your reply. It's ludicrous. Your first part is going on a wrong tangent. We are talking about books and ilms not intellectual property rights.<p>qiyam posted 09-12-2002 10:45 AM ET (US) <br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>"You consider this secretive...it is more to protect the books from being distorted."<p>What an idiotic claim you make sometimes. If you want to protect a book you open the book to people/public. The main reason why Al-Quran has not been distorted…because it is an open-book since the last 1400 century. And that is what maintain it integrity. It is most well known book and most read book. No one can distort this book because everyone knows the exact content of it to the letter that make up each and every sentence<p>The fact is these khotari criminal wanna keep the books to their slave of Dawaat and keep the mass ignorant. And to make the Bohras think they have something for salvation that no one in the world have so ppl thinks there are the chosen people in the world and that their dai can be potray as the most knowledgeable person.

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> it is more to protect the books from being distorted.<p>qiyam,<br>That's an interesting point, and one I hadn't really thought about. <br>However:<br>One of the things that bothers me about the bohra community is that they are absolutist in their belief that their way is the right way, and at the same time they consider themselves immune to the wiles of history. In this case - whereas I do think you've raised a point worth considering regarding preservation of text, jinx has also brought up a strong counterpoint, which leads in to my own concern.<p>Having batini knowledge creates an information monopoly (or chokehold, depending on how cynical one wants to be), and it results in an inherent inequality in the community. Because the layperson has no recourse to information other than through the clergy, there is no independent way of verifying what the clergy is saying. Thus, a clergyman can pretty much say anything and claim that this is true. I don't honestly think that all bohra amils run around lying through their teeth to take advantage of the common man, but it is an inherent weakness to the system, that can be abused by those that have a mind to.<p>Not that I think a perfect system exists, but my complaint is exactly that I feel the standard bohra line is that the Bohra system IS perfect, and that no other community that has anything to offer or to learn from. Please inform me if I am wrong in this perception.<p>I suppose I'm looking for the possibility of intellectual cross-hybridization, if you'll forgive that ponderous term...<p>Salaams and thanks to all for their input

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Syedna Moayyed ul Shirazi says - "He who tries to understand the Qur'an through its ordinary commentators will never get through its intricacies and he who tries to interpret like those who interpret according to their own whims will also be stuck up and will not know how to get out of it."<p>The Prophet says, "I am leaving two weighty things. The one is the Book of God and the second is my ‘Ahl-e Bait'. If you stick to them you will never lose the way. They are inseparable. They cannot part with each other until they return to Me and meet Me at the ‘hauz-e-Kausar'." Again the Prophet says, "Learn from the learned divines of ‘Ahl-e Bait' and from those who have learned from them. If you do so you will be secure from hell-fire". <p>I hope this clarifies why you need the Imam's and Dai's who are the talking Quran.

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<br>Huzaif said:- "He who tries to understand the Qur'an through its ordinary commentators will never get through its intricacies and he who tries to interpret like those who interpret according to their own whims will also be stuck up and will not know how to get out of it."<p>What proof you have that Dai does not interpret Quran as per his whim?<p>Huzaif Said:-"Imam's and Dai's who are the talking Quran"<p>Where is Imaam? Why he is hiding?<p>I do not thik after Prophet's demise any body is 'Talking Quran'<p>Once again tell me how many stars are there in the Universe?<p>1029!<p>Does that represent Number of Royal Family Members?<p>Go get more Sabak brother<p>Wasalaam<p>

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Dear Khairan,<br>"One of the things that bothers me about the bohra community is that they are absolutist in their belief that their way is the right way, and at the same time they consider themselves immune to the wiles of history."<p>---I don't bohras considers themselves immune from anyone or anything...look at the number of schism the Shiah have gone through since the times of Imam Husayn. Even during the times of the Imams as'Satr. It was an staunch holding on to the Imamate and Dawat that kept the bohras (considering themselves the true shiatul Ali) as they are now.<p>"Having batini knowledge creates an information monopoly"<p>---Do you think anyone had near the knowledge of the Imams? What about those they trained (the Dais)? What about the mullahs deputized by them. What you call a monopoly is incorrect. Anyone who wishes to gain further knowledge is welcomed to. Sabaqs are held daily in the most masjids...and most amils and mullahs will train you at their or your home if asked. No...they will not publish everything for the general public...because the general public wouldn't understand the proper context of esoteric..if read by themselves. This you know and I know. Knowledge is the only difference in the eyes of Allah...and He told us to seek knowledge from those who have it. The Prophet nor any Imam or Dai published books for education of this nature...so it is wrong to assume this is a new concept.<p>"Thus, a clergyman can pretty much say anything and claim that this is true."<p>---Those clergy that are at that level first must themselves obtain the right to teach. The right (raza) is authorization that they are knowledgable to teach this type of knowledge. Not everyone has this right...many amils do and don't have this right. Many sheikhs do and don't have this right. You can't just ask any mullah questions of batin nature...assume he has right. I will tell you I am not a mullah...this is why I limit my reply to info available to everyone...to as you say cross reference. Does that make your answer correct...no. But religion is not a debate.<p>"Bohra system IS perfect, and that no other community that has anything to offer or to learn from.."<p>---This is definitely a false idea. Bohra's believe the context of religion is perfect...but not the practice of it. And you will rarely hear anyone putting down another sect for their beliefs or practices. Bohras may not agree with them...but they will not ridicule them..solely on that.<br>

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Dear Sister Jinx,<br>Yes, the Quran is widely published and widely read. The taliban read the same Quran you do. Why is their beliefs so much different? The sunni read the same Quran you do. Why is their beliefs so much different?<p>Publishing a book in multitude doesn't make the book any more understandable to the public then not. How many scholars understand the Quran...few. During the time of the Prophet, how many sahaba understood the Quran...few. This is why we have the ulul amr. How many times did Maulana Ali correct Abu Bakr, Umar, etc regarding simple verses of the Quran...books have been written in regard to them.<p>Possessing a book doesn't make one understand it...it make one have a nice collection of books they don't understand. You still need someone to teach you.

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One point to add:<p>There is a hadith of the Prophet I have written before:<p>A old man came to the Prophet and said I cannot read nor write...please teach me something. The Prophet whispered something to him until the old man memorized it and understood it. One of the sahaba walked by and asked the Prophet who was the silly old man he was speaking to. The Prophet said the man is a shiekh al'sheikh (wise of the wise men). The sahabah asked what did you teach him. The Prophet said that the man learned and understood truly Surah Iklas. (paraphrased).<p>---The old man was the wisest of men..because he understood the true meaning of three ayats of the Quran.

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Dear Br Qiyam, so who is right in their interpretation of the Quran, shia, sunni, wahabi, al qaida,taleban, bohri mulla,or ???There are also many different authors who have written/translated the Quran in many diff. languages. The same question again arises, which language/translation is the right one?If one is right, then ofcourse the other one is wrong, as you can´t have half right or half wrong.In your reply to sis jinx,you wrote and I quote "How many scholars understand the Quran...few. During the time of the Prophet, how many sahaba understood the Quran...few."who are you to give this judgement,or where did you get this information and on what grounds? And lastly, who in the end is going to judge who is right or wrong, your moula, mulla omar (taleban)the ayahtolla, bush, or who????????I know most will say Allah, but I am talking of now and here.

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Dear Anwar,<br>"...who are you to give this judgement,or where did you get this information and on what grounds?"<p>--If you read the rest of the post..I refered to how many times Maulana Ali corrected the sahaba...so my judgement is based on the fact of Maulana Ali and the Imams after correcting so called scholars of Islam constantly.<p>Regarding the Quran..the Prophet, the wasi, and the Imams interpret the Quran. The Dai mediates in the time of satr. Shiah reference interpretation by Imam Jafar Sadiq, as do we. In this case...both are correct...because an Imam was referenced.<p>As the representative of the Imam as'Satr, the Dai's direction is the direction of the Imam...in all aspects. You are not answerable for any of your actions..except to Allah. The Dai guides you..just as the Imam, the Prophets guide all mankind.

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Qiyam,<p>"You are not answerable for any of your actions..except to Allah."<p>Can you please explain the concept of Safai Chitti, based on the above ?<p>Thanks.

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and also laanat, baraat, excomunication,

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"Shiah reference interpretation by Imam Jafar Sadiq, as do we. In this case...both are correct"<p>So Bohras now do not consider themselves to be Shiah?

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> But religion is not a debate.<p>qiyam,<p>In principle, I agree with you. Religion is a way of life - DIN - which is delivered to man, for man, by God. It is for us to follow and understand as best we can. Once we depart from that way and convert religion into what we want and are comfortable with, it ceases to be sacred. Eternal law transforms into temporal philosophy. <p>However: our situation is far from ideal. In the current situation, there are many different opinions as to whether God does or does not exist, and which religion is correct and which religions are not. Nobody, as far as I can tell, has any categorical way of establishing that they, and no one else, is right. <p>Thus, we have essentially lost a universal understanding of what the Way of God is. <p>Because this is so, debate is not only unavoidable, but in fact necessary. No one has an absolute claim on Truth, and my feeling is that we need to constantly push ourselves and test and challenge the limits of our beliefs - doing so lends integrity to the version of Truth that we ascribe to. I cannot justify the wholesale surrender of my own moral sensibility to another's discretion. <p>Salaam

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Qiyam<br>Not understanding something is different from denying people the book. Did our holy Prophet denied ilm/knowledge or The Kitab?? No he did not. That is what Sayedna and his gang is doing. Locking up books for his selected few.<p>Yes, Taleban has the same book- that proves it is not distorted and if they misunderstand the book then do you think this is the fault of our holy prophet?? NO! It is fault of people. <p>Talk some logic qiyam.

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Well Qiyam..<p><B> the Old man have Raza to talk to Prophet?? Did the old man have raza to get some ilm from the greatest man in the world?<p>Do you see Khotars Hypocrisy.</B><br>

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Dear Believer,<br>"Can you please explain the concept of Safai Chitti, based on the above?"<br>--This is used to confirm you've paid your part of the local jamat's sabil. It also is used to classify your adherence to the jamat and its activities. The safai chitti is usually only to stay at the musafir khannas of the ziyarats, and for performing islamic rites at another jamat.<p>This has nothing to do with your practice of Islam outside of the Masjid/Markez.<p><br>Dear Anwar,<br>"and also laanat, baraat, excomunication"<p>--Please see surah taubah/barat.<p>Dear N,<br>"Shiah reference interpretation by Imam Jafar Sadiq, as do we. In this case...both are correct"<br>So Bohras now do not consider themselves to be Shiah?"<p>--Bohra consider themselve the true shiatul Ali or Shiah. I used "shiah" as a general term and the last statement to clarify that we are including in the group term shiah.<p>Dear Khairan,<br>In the context of what I was writing...the religion of the opponents is Islam so their was no debate just further understanding.<p>In general...I also don't believe in debating religion...because I don't believe in comparing Allah to other's interpretation of god. I believe in listening to their ideas...but not in a context of arguing.<p>Dear Jinx,<br>"Not understanding something is different from denying people the book."<p>---So it is better to let the people decide what they "think" the meaning of book is...instead of the correct teaching. This is what you call logic, huh?<p>"Did our holy Prophet denied ilm/knowledge or The Kitab?? No he did not. That is what Sayedna and his gang is doing. Locking up books for his selected few."<p>---No..this is a LIE. No one denies anyone the books nor the understanding of it. You just have to go to the "classes or sabaqs" to learn...and this is EXACTLY the way the Prophet, Imams, and Dais always taught. The Prophet did not just copy the Quran and send to everyone to read. The Qurans were sent with a person taught to teach from it. Person like Salman Al'Farsi, Maulana Ali, Abu Said al'Kudri, etc.<p>"Talk some logic"...Jinx.<p><br>

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You are using your personal opinion Qiyam. That is not part of the religion.<p>Al-Quran is book read by everyone on this planet. Whoever heard of Raza to read the book of God? We have copy of it available to people. <p>You are not thinking ..that in the 6-century people used to write on goats skin and bones of animal. You are again mixing up things to justify your Sayedna Burhanuddin Raza scams.<p>Classes of Our Imam were open to public. They were not stingy and hoarders of ilm like your Burhanuddin and his khotars.<p>It is not that Khotars are scared that message get distorted. Do you these common thieves have any dignity? No. Rather they are scared people will realize their money making scams and their un-Islamic tactics.

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Dear Jinx,<br>So are you using your personal opinion. You have neither facts nor one iota of proof to back up your claims...just heresay.<p>The things I have written are at least based on historical bases.<p>"Al-Quran is book read by everyone on this planet. Whoever heard of Raza to read the book of God? We have copy of it available to people."<p>---Yes...and few understand it. But there is blessings in just reading the Quran. But that's not the issue at hand..is it. Raza was practiced by the Prophet and the Imams. Please stop making statement as though you know what your talking about.<p>"You are not thinking ..that in the 6-century people used to write on goats skin and bones of animal. You are again mixing up things to justify your Sayedna Burhanuddin Raza scams."<p>---Huh, what does that have to do with anything. In Madinah, where almost everyone had access or possess a copy of the Quran...still had to obtain raza from Prophet to teach it. The Prophet himself gave halaqahs and sabaqs on the Quran and Islam. Everyone was allowed...but you had to go to it...he didn't come to you. So to today that knowledge is widely avaiable to those who go and seek it.<p>"Classes of Our Imam were open to public. They were not stingy and hoarders of ilm like your Burhanuddin and his khotars."<p>---No...tawil of the Quran was open to Ismaili in the Majalis Hikamahs...not just anyone. Yes, general Islam teaching was open to the public. This is very much how it is now.<p>"It is not that Khotars are scared that message get distorted. Do you these common thieves have any dignity? No. Rather they are scared people will realize their money making scams and their un-Islamic tactics."<p>---I think you are scared to go find out yourself the truth. You critcized this and that...but know very little on what actually goes on. Try going to a sabaq...there open to the public. Try going and getting raza for a sabaq on tawil...and find the truth. Then start telling people what happens.<p>I would remind you...I have just in the last two posts...corrected lies you've posted about the actions of our Prophet and Imams. Please refrain from doing so.

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Qiyam,<p>Your explanation is contradictory with your statement "You are not answerable for any of your actions..except to Allah."<p>Which one do you really believe in ? Just trying to understand because I had to deal with conflicting statements such as these anytime I tried to better understand the Dawoodi Bohra faith.<p><p>

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---Yes...and few understand it. But there is blessings in just reading the Quran. But that's not the issue at hand..is it. Raza was practiced by the Prophet and the Imams. Please stop making statement as though you know what your talking about.<p>>> Well..Qiyam..It is very obvious that it is you who is very well acquainted with these crap - Raza and Sajda and Qadam bosi of the holy Prophet and Imam. I should ask you to please stop rambling. <p>---Huh, what does that have to do with anything. In Madinah, where almost everyone had access or possess a copy of the Quran...still had to obtain raza from Prophet to teach it. The Prophet himself gave halaqahs and sabaqs on the Quran and Islam. Everyone was allowed...but you had to go to it...he didn't come to you. So to today that knowledge is widely avaiable to those who go and seek it.<p>>>That is incorrect. He went to medina; he went to all corners of makkah and taif to teach people ilm. Our holy prophet knows what his responsibility was. Religious was not a money making scheme like what your Burhanuddin and his family is doing<p>---No...tawil of the Quran was open to Ismaili in the Majalis Hikamahs...not just anyone. Yes, general Islam teaching was open to the public. This is very much how it is now.<p>>> You said we have the same Quranic interpretation as Imam Jaffar Sadiq. I presume you do not even know who this Imam was. You are ignorant of his method of teaching and the size of his class and the people who were his student. You think our Imam gave out Sabaq. What a laugh!<p>---I think you are scared to go find out yourself the truth. You critcized this and that...but know very little on what actually goes on. Try going to a sabaq...there open to the public. Try going and getting raza for a sabaq on tawil...and find the truth. Then start telling people what happens.<p>>> Do you think I need your Raza crap to get knowledge and be educated?? Knowledge is everyway and not in your khotars pocket. They do not even understand basic religious ruling and you ask me to learn from these fakes? Allah swt didnt give Burhannudin and his evil man monopoly of religion. <p>>> And as for sabaqs. That is kiddie’s stuff. Only suitable for someone who is at your level. <p><br>I would remind you...I have just in the last two posts...corrected lies you've posted about the actions of our Prophet and <br>Imams. Please refrain from doing so. <p>>> If you noticed the discussion on this board,,, it is always you who has never stop lying.<p>I dont have any hope that you will ever be honest

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Well I did take sabakh to be told:<br>" Allah upper chei, moulla Mumbai ma, anne mae ammil here....treat me as moulana, how you behave with moulla you do for me, same for moulla - Allah......."<br>What a sabak. <br>If that is not the right sabakh than the ammils should first be re educated...what a waste of the jamia education given already.<p>Q now I can state you are fully fucked up.<p>Now we shall hear from simple simon.

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<br>Br. qiyam<p>Do you have Raza to participate on this board?<p>Wasalaam<p>

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Dear Believer,<p>Your explanation is contradictory with your statement "You are not answerable for any of your actions..except to Allah."<p>---Who is the Dai...the authority of the Imam az'Zaman. Who is Imam az'Zaman...the authority of Allah on this earth. So what is conflicting??<p>I am answerable to Allah for my sin...one of those sins is denying Allah's representative on this earth. It is a denial of the shahadat not to believe both in Allah and His representative on earth the walayat of the Prophet and the Imams.

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Dear MuslimFirst,<br>I don't need raza to talk about things that are zahir..like the pillars of islam and other things. I have said this many times.

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Dear Jinx,<br>"Well..Qiyam..It is very obvious that it is you who is very well acquainted with these crap - Raza and Sajda and Qadam bosi of the holy Prophet and Imam. I should ask you to please stop rambling."<p>---You reply clearly so your enmity towards the Prophet and Imams. Maybe you should stop.<p>"That is incorrect. He went to medina; he went to all corners of makkah and taif to teach people ilm. Our holy prophet knows what his responsibility was. Religious was not a money making scheme like what your Burhanuddin and his family is doing"<p>---Again..you speak of what you don't know. The Prophet spent a majority of the his prophhethood in Madinah.<p>"You said we have the same Quranic interpretation as Imam Jaffar Sadiq. I presume you do not even know who this Imam was. You are ignorant of his method of teaching and the size of his class and the people who were his student. You think our Imam gave out Sabaq. What a laugh!"<p>---Again, show your ignorance of the Imams. Imam Jafar Sadiq..our fifth Imam..taught in sabaqs from his house and in the masjid, usually in secret. This was because of Abbasid khaliphs fear of the Imam teachings correct Islam. His students included the like of the sunni imams malik and hanifa. He and his father established the Ikwan as'Safa and transmitted their teachings through Dais across arabia. For one who know little about his history...you love mocking other that do.<p>"Do you think I need your Raza crap to get knowledge and be educated?? Knowledge is everyway and not in your khotars pocket. They do not even understand basic religious ruling and you ask me to learn from these fakes? Allah swt didnt give Burhannudin and his evil man monopoly of religion."<p>---No...you don't need me for anything. It seems your perfectly happy in your own selfmade world of knowledge. Most of what you is based on your belief that its true...with little research behind it. <p>"And as for sabaqs. That is kiddie’s stuff. Only suitable for someone who is at your level."<p>---Seem in your line of thinking you would say this. You mock sabaqs...while never attending one. You mock the use of them...though the Prophet and Imams restricted teaching through them.<p>"If you noticed the discussion on this board,,, it is always you who has never stop lying. I dont have any hope that you will ever be honest"<p>---Please quote where? You keep saying I have lied...yet never state where. If you're refer to historical references...I can quote and document each statement I make...in facts most of my statements have been document on this very board before on other threads. You on the other hand, make blanket statements based solely on your opinion. Please do so.<br>

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Qiyam,<p>So now you have reduced this powerful statement to "...except to Allah, and his representatives " ? <p>Who is a Waali Mulla ? authority of the Aamil, Who is an Aamil ? Authority of the Dai,"---Who is the Dai...the authority of the Imam az'Zaman. Who is Imam az'Zaman...the authority of Allah on this earth. <p>So now that we have elevated everyone's position and cheapened the meaning of this statement you ask ...<p>So what is conflicting??<p>Well nothing...now !<p>

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<br>Qiyam wrote:-"---Again, show your ignorance of the Imams. Imam Jafar Sadiq..our fifth Imam..taught in sabaqs from his house and in the masjid, usually in secret. This was because of Abbasid khaliphs fear of the Imam teachings correct Islam. His students included the like of the sunni imams malik and hanifa. He and his father established the Ikwan as'Safa and transmitted their teachings through Dais across arabia. For one who know little about his history...you love mocking other that do."<p>Imaam Malek and Imaam Hanafi went on to teach their follower Fikh and ultimately two out of four sunni Madhabs were formed. These Madhab are lot different then Madhab after Imaam Jafar (Shiasm as known today). Probabaly Imaams Hanifa and Malik were not given Raza to learn secret lessons from Imaam Jafar.<p><p>

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Dear Qiyam<br>Imam Jaffar Sadiq had over 10 000 student at his school. I doubt you know the hell you are bullshitin' about.<p>Please dont degrade our Imam with giving sabaq and such. <p>Muslim First, <br>Qiyam has just attacked your Imam Abu Hannifa and Imam Malik. Aren’t you going to defend them?? Or at least say something