God and Religion

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#31

Unread post by JC » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:49 pm

Areef,

It would have been better if you would have answered the four quesions of Danish.

We all must accept that Islam (or what Islam is seen these days) has to change with Time, Knowledge and Wisdom. We must be able to atleast challange and ask questions. When Muhammad brought Islam, he challanged the old system, though it was a peaceful and prosperous system - so why can not we, today, at his age and time, question some of his doings and teachings??!!

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#32

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:54 pm

Religion offers a path which leads to God,and as we know God is unknown, So a path can lead only to that which is known and not the unknown (God) because unknown is immeasurable.
LM,

Who told you God is Unknown? Just cos you have not seen god does not mean he is unknown. Also, someday if you see god will you believe in him?? I am sure you will still doubt him thinking whether he is real god or not... So if you do not believe in something no one can change your mind.
Mind lives in illusion, It has illusions about everything, about people, nations, religion and God.
May be you are living in the world of illusion. But I can say for myself that Allah exist for sure and there is no doubt about it. Doubt and illusions are the words for non-believers. For believers Allah is real and the only truth..

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#33

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:00 pm

JC,

There are no answers to blind hatred in the name of humanity. You are asking me to answer his four questions when he has failed to answer one question of mine. I will repeat it for your benifit

According to Danish this world is created by an intelligent entity. Can he provide us with concrete proof on this E.g. photograph of this entity???

Let him answer my question first and then I will answer his..

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#34

Unread post by JC » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:16 pm

Aareef,

In my humble opinion, there are two things -

1. God or No God. The whole concept of Creation, Universe, Galaxy, Life after death etc - which are apparently beyond human 'wisdom' of today.

2. Islam and life and teachings of Muhammad when it relates to 'worldly' matters such as marriage, inheritance, social, economical, political etc affairs - which can be tested and explained with and by human wisdom of today.

To me #1 is debatable and it becomes the matter of faith only. One believes in God, one does not - neither can prove anything as it is FAITH.

However, we can discuss #2. Why can not I challange what Mohammad taught in regards to say social or political system? Why cannot I challange his allowing men to marry four at a time? or Why interest is haram? If I donot ask, how will I learn? I want to have that Right and Option that 'may' be some of his teachings are out-dated ..... we used typewriters once upon a time, today we use computer - both are right as per their age and time, but who uses typewriter today??!! Marrying four at a time, may be is right and has some solid logical reasons - explain that OR atleast allow me 'ask' the question.

I hope I have made my point clear.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#35

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:58 pm

JC,

You've been asking these questions for a long time now. So when you say - "allow me to ask these questions", you are being allowed to ask these questions, that is the reason why you are asking these questions in the first place. Since you are being allowed to ask these questions, it automatically means that your questions have been answered.

People needed to take a leak 3000 years ago, people still need to take a leak, there is no computer program available that can help you with that is there?

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#36

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:13 pm

JC,

I agree with your second point. Even I am against certain practices like triple Talaq, Iddat for women etc. allowed in Islam. I think this is where we need to think logically and use our own judgement.

Just so that you know our Prophet(PBUH) allowed four marriages because during his time arabs were nomadic barbarians who believed in might is right. women were highly unsafe and promoting four marriages was a political issue more then religious... Hence, such practices are not valid anymore. But the interesting part is that muslims are changing with time. Today how many muslims have four wives??? In bohris triple talaq cannot be used to divorce your wife. If you read my posts carefully I am not against asking questions. What I am against is mocking the belief of others without any justification.

E.g. if a guy comes from Mars and sees people on earth fighting for food he will not understand anything. He will think why are these people fighting for certain kind of substances. He will not realize that these food substances are the source of life on earth.. Same is true for religion.. You are arguing because you know certain things now that you were not knowing. But then you do not know everything either. So when people negate the concept of god on half baked truths and say that teachings of prophets is a waste of time is simply childish... And I am against such people. If you cannot prove that god does not exist why ask me to prove that he exists...

saif
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#37

Unread post by saif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:14 pm

Not only Danish is a non-Muslim and anti-Muslim, he now admits being an atheist ("Just the thought of hell and this idiotic notion of this supreme man-made deity and his holy books literally weaken ones mind from rational thought and reason because they live their lives in fear brought about by once-upon-a-time prophets and messengers of gods and goddesses followed by the twisted versions of unscrupulous mullahs and priests who are the real thugs of our generation in contempt of natural civility and justice.")

and in his own words "an emotional monster" - confused, schizophrenic and neurotic!!

This site is not for the likes of Danish and people who wish to ape him. This is an Islamic site, predominantly to discuss the Progressive Bohras and their struggles against the mainstream Kothar and their sycophants - as the name indicates. If you wish to indulge in mindless Islamophobic or atheist discourses or your so-called intellectual masturbation, please find yourselves other forums to satisfy your depraved and plagiarised opinions and discourses.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#38

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:17 pm

Originally posted by Aareef:
According to Danish this world is created by an intelligent entity.

Let him answer my question first and then I will answer his..
Originally posted by Danish:
I became a humanist with the notion that there exists a "Creator" (an intelligent entity), nothing less nothing more ~ Dead-End?

I get the notion that there exists an "intelligent entity" due to the fact that our planet Earth and our entire Cosmological Universe must have been "created" by virtue of its harmonious relations and unparallel settings governing the very essence of existence. Now the question begs to answer who or what this very "entity" exactly is whenceforth no human can fathom nor perceive, hence this "entity" remains fathomless and unperceivable. This “intelligent entity” could be anything; Spirit, Light, Heat, Energy, or a Spec of Anything/Whatnot. Note that all these entities possess the same characteristics and attributes of a man-made fathomable “deity”, i.e. omniscience, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, etc. and possessing exactly the opposites as well.

It is you who have a god named Allah to choke upon, so the onus to prove this fathomless yet fathomable male chauvinist deity lies onto you, not me.
-----------------------------------------------
Can he provide us with concrete proof on this E.g. photograph of this entity???
I just emailed this entity via my super charged wireless connections and requested for a photograph as an attachment in supreme quality jpeg format. I shall forward the picture as soon as available. :)
Originally posted by Aareef:
Who told you God is Unknown? Just cos you have not seen god does not mean he is unknown.
We all know where your Allah is hidden and locked away!!!....a fathomless yet fathomable deity. :(

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#39

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:25 pm

I just emailed this entity via my super charged wireless connections.
Oh! so you need super charged connections to contact this entity... In that case it is highly primitive... I think it should be able to retrieve information by logging remotely into your brain if it is really intelligent the way you portray it. See that's why I was advicing you against free thinking. This entity has dragged you back into caveman days... Maybe the next primitive question that you will come up with is why do people wear clothes in this age :D :D

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#40

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:41 pm

Originally posted by saif:
Not only Danish is a non-Muslim and anti-Muslim, he now admits being an atheist
The first half of your statement is half-baked with a lie and the second is a fully cooked one.
This site is not for the likes of Danish and people who wish to ape him. This is an Islamic site,...
Hmmm I get it, in other words all truth must be abandoned and only half-baked and wholesome lies must become your constitutional tolerance and judicial rights. But then again, why do you spout venom against your own belief systems?

O well, I guess it's time for me to take a break since I've received enough dose of lies and cries my good mind can handle. ;)

saif
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#41

Unread post by saif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:57 pm

Danish:

I'll second your proposal and agree to your intention of taking leave.

However, I've got a problem with your classifying your mind (if any) "good mind". I suppose it is "mind over matter" - I don't mind and you don't matter (and you incidentally don't seem to have gray/grey matter over in your mind either")

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#42

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:02 pm

Danish is nothing but human excreta. All that he spews is simply hatred for the muslims. It has nothing to do with the muslim rituals or customs but something to do with what a muslim has done to him earlier in his life. May be a muslim beat the shit out of him (easy to do since he is excreta himself) when he was little, who knows. But that muslim probably did us all a big favor. :D

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#43

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:03 pm

Originally posted by Aareef:
Oh! This entity has dragged you back into caveman days...
You've just found that out after presenting you the vivid picture of who and what Muhammad was all about and his fake god Allah.
Maybe the next primitive question that you will come up with is why do people wear clothes in this age :D :D
That's an easy one and I shall tell you all about it once I get off the hook, line and sinker syndrome with an ex-wife of Muhammad; young beautiful Aisha whom you give lanats to (primitively speaking).

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#44

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:10 pm

Originally posted by Above Average Bohra:
Danish is nothing but human excreta. All that he spews is simply hatred for the muslims. It has nothing to do with the muslim rituals or customs but something to do with what a muslim has done to him earlier in his life. May be a muslim beat the shit out of him (easy to do since he is excreta himself) when he was little, who knows. But that muslim probably did us all a big favor. :D
It's Tits for Tats Since you're lovin it, I am doing sadaqa in return.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#45

Unread post by porus » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:15 pm

Originally posted by Danish:

This “intelligent entity” could be anything
And it could be "nothing".

Illusion is a Delusion only if you take it seriously.
Originally posted by Danish:

there exists an "intelligent entity" due to the fact that our planet Earth and our entire Cosmological Universe must have been "created" by virtue of its harmonious relations and unparallel settings governing the very essence of existence.
by virtue of what?

where did you get that notion? Wouldn't an intelligent entity be capable of creating a totally chaotic universe? In fact, that is what it is. Chaotic.

On the other hand, think about what in your intelligent make-up gives you the ideas of harmony, chaos, good, evil and all other polarities?

Remember, illusion is a Delusion only if you take it seriously.

You are not supposed to make sense of this post.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#46

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:20 pm

Originally posted by saif:
However, I've got a problem with your classifying your mind (if any) "good mind". I suppose it is "mind over matter" - I don't mind and you don't matter (and you incidentally don't seem to have gray/grey matter over in your mind either")
I have similar classification but not really a problem. There are instances of doubts "no-doubt" as in gray/grey matter but those are rather colorfully painted.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#47

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:35 pm

I've received enough dose of lies and cries my good mind can handle.
Your good mind has two halves. The left brain and right brain. Your left brain has nothing right in it and your right brain has nothing left in it... If you do not understand what I am saying pls send an email to that primitive idiot and it will give you the answer.. :D :D

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#48

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:50 pm

Originally posted by porus:
Originally posted by Danish:

This “intelligent entity” could be anything
And it could be "nothing".
No, it cannot be "nothing" for nothing itself must be "something" in existence.
Illusion is a Delusion only if you take it seriously.
Agreed.
by virtue of what?

where did you get that notion?
You left out the rest of the statement on both counts to get the answer already built in.
Wouldn't an intelligent entity be capable of creating a totally chaotic universe? In fact, that is what it is. Chaotic.
From our entire cosmos point of view I have no idea. Besides, the "intelligent entity" is just a NOTION, (a thought) nothing else.
On the other hand, think about what in your intelligent make-up gives you the ideas of harmony, chaos, good, evil and all other polarities?
They are all parallel circumstances in existence and defining their own ways independently in relationships.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#49

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:57 pm

They are all parallel circumstances in existence and defining their own ways independently in relationships.
If the entity is intelligent why didn't it filter out negative traits like anger, lust, frustration from human specie?? Why should there be any scope for the existence of these behavours??? Or may be there is a bug in the program of universe building and all these are outcomes of that bug :eek:

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#50

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:06 pm

Originally posted by Aareef:
I've received enough dose of lies and cries my good mind can handle.
Your good mind has two halves. The left brain and right brain. Your left brain has nothing right in it and your right brain has nothing left in it... If you do not understand what I am saying pls send an email to that primitive idiot and it will give you the answer.. :D :D
I sent the email to that primitive idiot (Allah) as Supreme Priority but instead got an immediate response from His hibernated assailant (Muhammad) who threatend me to warm you to release the primitive idiot from his misery and sufferings in order for my email to pass through. :p

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#51

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:09 pm

but instead got an immediate response from His hibernated assailant (Muhammad)
Anybody still thinks that Danish is not completely insane???

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#52

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:14 pm

Originally posted by Aareef:
but instead got an immediate response from His hibernated assailant (Muhammad)
Anybody still thinks that Danish is not completely insane???
Not me, as Saif pointed out the cyclic classification and phenomenon of "I don't mind and you don't matter", so lets continue with the entertainment you all so much fancy. :cool:

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#53

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:23 pm

Originally posted by JC:
It seems Danish has some valid points and questions. Will there be any answers??

Bro Danish,

I would highly appreciate your thoights on Abortion and Homosexuality vis-a-vis Islam and Others. It is well known that Islam and Muslims are totally againt these, though I feel, there should be some exceptions.
Thanks JC for your much needed anitcipation. I was in a bit of playing mood with the "kids" and got distracted from getting back to your excellent and serious questions. I shall return in favor soon.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#54

Unread post by Alislam » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:40 pm

Originally posted by JC:
It seems Danish has some valid points and questions. Will there be any answers??

--- JC, these questions have been raised many a times on this forum and even answered in detail.
Just browse through the previous posts.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#55

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:46 pm

I was in a bit of playing mood with the "kids" and got distracted from getting back to your excellent and serious questions.
Which question was a serious one??? The one on abortion or the one on homosexuality?? :D

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#56

Unread post by porus » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:55 pm

Originally posted by Danish:

No, it cannot be "nothing" for nothing itself must be "something" in existence.
Actually, "nothing" is "everything".

Illusion of "things" arise because "mind" likes to make distinctions. If I had "no-mind", then there would be neither Danish nor porus.

I met Dalai Lama once. I asked him to talk about Non-Duality and Maya. He just smiled. One illusion to another.

You are not supposed to make sense of this post.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#57

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:40 pm

JC,

As far as abortion is concerned, I agree, there should be exceptions. Danish should've been an exception. :D

Now asking these questions to Danish "vis-a-vis Islam" is like asking a wolf about vegetarianism in the middle of a meat yard. The problem with you is that you are looking for someone who will give an answer that you want. Even the hate mongering human excreta will do!!

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#58

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:11 pm

Not me, as Saif pointed out the cyclic classification and phenomenon of "I don't mind and you don't matter", so lets continue with the entertainment you all so much fancy.
Small correction: "You do not have the mind and hence, you do not matter" :D :D

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#59

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:29 pm

Originally posted by JC:
I would highly appreciate your thoights on Abortion and Homosexuality vis-a-vis Islam and Others. It is well known that Islam and Muslims are totally againt these, though I feel, there should be some exceptions.
This is rather a complex topic because of conflicting views, circumstances, several factors and ofcourse location. I shall present my own perspectives and briefly touch upon the abortion part only, since sodomy is an entirely different subject and may be discussed seperately. My appologies, JC.

I believe most Muslims generally are anti-abortionists and apply their rule on the basis of the commands in the Quran that condemns those who take life of children (6:151 & 17:31). Notice that both these verses are contradictory, in that, one calls for justice and the other reputes it. The problem here is of confusion and significantly serious which I must point out because children, as per my understanding, do not include fetuses and miscarriages and represent a fully grown embryo, a child, a minor or even an adult. In any case, the major concern in Islam is that of adultery and rape, where regardless of her being pregnant or not, she is severely punished or even killed. That by default is not only punishing and/or killing the injustice (on the women) but also the innocent (on the unborn). So then what’s the point of 6:151 or 17:31 in relations to 24:2-4, 4:15 & 4:34? (these verses are also in contradiction).

The most significant point is the consensus of both the husband and the wife. If one fervently disagrees even after much negotiations and family interactions, then the relationship may become sour and dissolve which, in all factuality, brings about much greater sorrows and complications. But if both agree in favor of abortion or even adoption for that matter for whatever reasons, then I don't foresee any problems in their best interest.

There are also other factors such as single parent abortions, economic difficulties, health conditions, abnormalities, etc. which may contribute and lead to several other problems must the abortion be nullified.

I personally believe it must rest solely upon the parents in justifying their ultimate decision and must understand that it is no business of religionist to promote fear of hell and damnation upon them, must they carryout abortions for whatever logical reasons.

Remember, as a side note, that human life is essentially “sacred” but the reality is that people kill, get killed and die out day-in and day-out. And all the experiences and attachments that an already born or an elderly dying human leaves behind are indescribably superior to an unborn abortionist. Humans can be procreated to bring about more children of unknown nature but an old man already known and gone through the phases of life cannot. It is a framework of mind and I support abortion. Criticisms are welcomed.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: God and Religion

#60

Unread post by Danish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:27 pm

Originally posted by porus:
Originally posted by Danish:

No, it cannot be "nothing" for nothing itself must be "something" in existence.
Actually, "nothing" is "everything".
In that case, I consent, since "everything" must be "something". :)
Illusion of "things" arise because "mind" likes to make distinctions. If I had "no-mind", then there would be neither Danish nor porus.
Hey, we are after all, the real brothers in faith.
I met Dalai Lama once. I asked him to talk about Non-Duality and Maya. He just smiled. One illusion to another.
Dalai Lama is certainly right in deciphering mind over matter. I've read the "Dalai Lama" and watched many of his videos on youtube. He is one of the many gurus that I admire the most.

How do you justify the attrocites embolden on the Tibetians by the Han Chinese? It's a pitiful yet rather helpless situation.
You are not supposed to make sense of this post.
I must take heed and meditate. :)