separation of men and women in the masjid
separation of men and women in the masjid
I was asked a question by a non-bohri female friend of mine about why our men and women are separated in the masjid. They pray apart, listen to waaz from different sections of the mosques and eat their meals separately. Why is this? Can anyone provide examples in the quran or hadith that point to this? I know this is common practise throughout the Muslim world and my friend suggested this represents a physical manifestation of the fundamental inequality of the sexes within the Islamic faith. I didn't have an answer for that. Can the learned among you please educate me?
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Kalkandelen
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:01 am
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
Salam,
Look, I can't really speak for women but most men I know go around all day thinking about the opposite sex to one degree or another. The inforced division of men and women in the masjids gives us weak ones a chance to think about things other than women!
El Morisco
Look, I can't really speak for women but most men I know go around all day thinking about the opposite sex to one degree or another. The inforced division of men and women in the masjids gives us weak ones a chance to think about things other than women!
El Morisco
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
Morris!
I am sure you like me go around thinking about the fairer sex from time to time but your response doesn't really answer my question. Br Qiyam, Muslim First, others with a more knowledge then I; can you provide a response?
I am sure you like me go around thinking about the fairer sex from time to time but your response doesn't really answer my question. Br Qiyam, Muslim First, others with a more knowledge then I; can you provide a response?
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
Fatima Marnesi has written about the clash between Islamic religion and the culture of peoples who are Muslim.
As I understand it, one of her points is that Islam empowers women by making them sexual entities, unlike what the West has traditionally done (ie before the modern day) by assuming that women were asexual and only play a role in sex as an outlet for men.
Both traditional Western and traditional Muslim (before Islam) cultures are patriarchal, and the sexualized woman becomes a far more dangerous thing in a patriarchal culture, so Muslim cultures reacted by enveiling the female, so to speak. That is, because these societies could not desexualize womanhood as the West has done, they try to put increasing limits on the ways in which women can interact with their society. Various forms of covering dress, cliterectomies, limits on things like going to school and being able to drive (re Saudia) and so on.
It's an interesting argument...
salaam
As I understand it, one of her points is that Islam empowers women by making them sexual entities, unlike what the West has traditionally done (ie before the modern day) by assuming that women were asexual and only play a role in sex as an outlet for men.
Both traditional Western and traditional Muslim (before Islam) cultures are patriarchal, and the sexualized woman becomes a far more dangerous thing in a patriarchal culture, so Muslim cultures reacted by enveiling the female, so to speak. That is, because these societies could not desexualize womanhood as the West has done, they try to put increasing limits on the ways in which women can interact with their society. Various forms of covering dress, cliterectomies, limits on things like going to school and being able to drive (re Saudia) and so on.
It's an interesting argument...
salaam
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
Morisco
The inforced division of men and women in the masjids gives us weak ones a chance to think about things other than women!
Why should the strong be penalized for the admittedly weak excuses for men such as yourself ? Why not require the weak men to wear a Burqah so they are not exposed to the thought of go around all day thinking about the opposite sex to one degree or another
Perhaps you are weak because you haven't seen what's under the Burqah ????
The inforced division of men and women in the masjids gives us weak ones a chance to think about things other than women!
Why should the strong be penalized for the admittedly weak excuses for men such as yourself ? Why not require the weak men to wear a Burqah so they are not exposed to the thought of go around all day thinking about the opposite sex to one degree or another
Perhaps you are weak because you haven't seen what's under the Burqah ????
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
Sister Khairan
Thank you for your post. Do you have the details of Fatima Marnesi's book? Is she an academic? Is she a known feminist writer?
Are you suggesting that the separation of the sexes is predominantly an issue of cultural tradition rather then islamic theory? Does this imply that as long as women follow the tennets of the Quran in the manner prescribed that 'in theory' there should be no reason why the sexes should be separated? Not looking to put words into your mouth in any way, just curious
Salaam
Thank you for your post. Do you have the details of Fatima Marnesi's book? Is she an academic? Is she a known feminist writer?
Are you suggesting that the separation of the sexes is predominantly an issue of cultural tradition rather then islamic theory? Does this imply that as long as women follow the tennets of the Quran in the manner prescribed that 'in theory' there should be no reason why the sexes should be separated? Not looking to put words into your mouth in any way, just curious
Salaam
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
24 Surah Noor verses 30-31:
30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;…..
Islam propagates the strict segregation of non-mehram sexes; as that is better and purer for both, the believing men and the believing women. The foundation or ‘usool’ in Islamic Law is that if anything is declared ‘haraam’ or prohibited, all the roads that lead to that prohibited act are also haraam. Allah and His Messenger (saws) have declared the act of ‘zina’ haraam for the believers, and the mixing of sexes is a route that may lead one to the evil path of ‘zina’, and thus the mixing of non-mehram sexes is also considered prohibited.
‘Mixing’ of the sexes would mean anyplace where men and women gather and can see each other without any restrictions. It would be purer and better for a believer to stay away from such gatherings, and do not give an opportunity to the avowed and cursed enemy of man (The Shaitaan) to put any evil thoughts into their minds.
30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;…..
Islam propagates the strict segregation of non-mehram sexes; as that is better and purer for both, the believing men and the believing women. The foundation or ‘usool’ in Islamic Law is that if anything is declared ‘haraam’ or prohibited, all the roads that lead to that prohibited act are also haraam. Allah and His Messenger (saws) have declared the act of ‘zina’ haraam for the believers, and the mixing of sexes is a route that may lead one to the evil path of ‘zina’, and thus the mixing of non-mehram sexes is also considered prohibited.
‘Mixing’ of the sexes would mean anyplace where men and women gather and can see each other without any restrictions. It would be purer and better for a believer to stay away from such gatherings, and do not give an opportunity to the avowed and cursed enemy of man (The Shaitaan) to put any evil thoughts into their minds.
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
sheikh,
The book in question is called Beyond the Veil. Mernissi is a university professor in Morocco, and this book is pretty well-known, as far as I know.
Her argument is very complex, and I can't really do justice to it here. Don't get me wrong, though - she is by no means an Islamic apologist, and she does not attempt to exonerate Islam or the Qur'an from the patriarchy in Muslim culture. But very roughly put, her argument is that Islam gives women a great measure of power, and that power must then be contained so as not to threaten that patriarchy.
I don't actually agree entirely with her argument, and I find some of the ways in which she chooses to support it questionable, but it is nevertheless an interesting commentary.
(by the way, I'm a guy)
salaam
The book in question is called Beyond the Veil. Mernissi is a university professor in Morocco, and this book is pretty well-known, as far as I know.
Her argument is very complex, and I can't really do justice to it here. Don't get me wrong, though - she is by no means an Islamic apologist, and she does not attempt to exonerate Islam or the Qur'an from the patriarchy in Muslim culture. But very roughly put, her argument is that Islam gives women a great measure of power, and that power must then be contained so as not to threaten that patriarchy.
I don't actually agree entirely with her argument, and I find some of the ways in which she chooses to support it questionable, but it is nevertheless an interesting commentary.
(by the way, I'm a guy)
salaam
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
This is a true story from the days in the 60's in London England.
The Jamaat had just been formed after Kothar forcefully disbanded the Bohra Students Union - when there was no separation between men and women when we met for any Bohri ocassion - social or religious!!
We used to meet at the Islamic Cultural Centre near Baker Street/Regents Park, I think!!- where the "new" Islamic Mosque has now been constructed. There was no Bohri Marqaz or Mosque or many immigrant Bohris then - mainly foreign Bohris students.
The Bohris were celebrating the Golden Jubilee of the then Muqaddas Moula, Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb, one week-end. There was this most beautiful Bohri lady I have ever known - (Rashidaben if I remember) married to a Dr. Moiz Bhai Saheb arrived for the function. The Jamaat had already started separating men and women at their functions - men on one side and women on the other side.
When Rashidaben arrived in her usually most exquisite attire (NO Ridahs existed during those days - just Saaris!!), some of the chamchi ladies requested her to sit at a specially made screen/purdah for her.
Rashidaben refused the offer telling the ladies very courteously and in no uncertain terms that she had just arrived to the Centre by Public Bus and Tube (subway)and she did not hide her face from any of the non-Muslim non-Mehram passengers or passers-by. And now she has no wish to hide or conceal her face from her Bohri brothers (mumin bhaio) either - who are all the followers of Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb.
Not only she declined to sit in the special purdah corner, she recited beautiful madeh etc. in honour and praise of Muqaddas Mouala in presence of everyone - men and women, on a public address system. I saluted her then and I salute her now. I always give this as the example of a most sophisticated LADY to my daughter, nieces, grand nieces as an example to follow and emulate.
PS: I wonder if any one knows of the whereabouts of these spunky and sporty lady. Her grace, elegance and beauty is still embedded in my mind/heart. Wow!!!!
The Jamaat had just been formed after Kothar forcefully disbanded the Bohra Students Union - when there was no separation between men and women when we met for any Bohri ocassion - social or religious!!
We used to meet at the Islamic Cultural Centre near Baker Street/Regents Park, I think!!- where the "new" Islamic Mosque has now been constructed. There was no Bohri Marqaz or Mosque or many immigrant Bohris then - mainly foreign Bohris students.
The Bohris were celebrating the Golden Jubilee of the then Muqaddas Moula, Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb, one week-end. There was this most beautiful Bohri lady I have ever known - (Rashidaben if I remember) married to a Dr. Moiz Bhai Saheb arrived for the function. The Jamaat had already started separating men and women at their functions - men on one side and women on the other side.
When Rashidaben arrived in her usually most exquisite attire (NO Ridahs existed during those days - just Saaris!!), some of the chamchi ladies requested her to sit at a specially made screen/purdah for her.
Rashidaben refused the offer telling the ladies very courteously and in no uncertain terms that she had just arrived to the Centre by Public Bus and Tube (subway)and she did not hide her face from any of the non-Muslim non-Mehram passengers or passers-by. And now she has no wish to hide or conceal her face from her Bohri brothers (mumin bhaio) either - who are all the followers of Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb.
Not only she declined to sit in the special purdah corner, she recited beautiful madeh etc. in honour and praise of Muqaddas Mouala in presence of everyone - men and women, on a public address system. I saluted her then and I salute her now. I always give this as the example of a most sophisticated LADY to my daughter, nieces, grand nieces as an example to follow and emulate.
PS: I wonder if any one knows of the whereabouts of these spunky and sporty lady. Her grace, elegance and beauty is still embedded in my mind/heart. Wow!!!!
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
Khairan
I'm sorry. I feel rather sheepish given the subject of this topic. Ironic, isn't it how a man talking about an Islamic book written by a woman on the subject of the sexes in Islam is automatically assumed to be a woman too.
I'm sorry. I feel rather sheepish given the subject of this topic. Ironic, isn't it how a man talking about an Islamic book written by a woman on the subject of the sexes in Islam is automatically assumed to be a woman too.
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
I seek refuge in GOD from Satan the cursed.
PEACE to all.
Thus the concept of 'ridha', 'burkha' and 'segregation' is traditional, rather hadithic and not Quranic.
PEACE.
I seek refuge in GOD from Satan the cursed.
PEACE to all.
I belive majority of what we are taught today are primarily nothing but rituals and traditions passed on by some unscrupulous scholars, leaders and traditionalist, not authorized in Quran. Nowhere in the Quran does it mention the ‘separation of sexes’.Sheikh's quote:
Are you suggesting that the separation of the sexes is predominantly an issue of cultural tradition rather then islamic theory? Does this imply that as long as women follow the tennets of the Quran in the manner prescribed that 'in theory' there should be no reason why the sexes should be separated?
In my understanding, it is entirely upto an individual, male or female, to live his/her life in the way he/she wants it be. In order to attain righteousness and HIS mercy, one must follow certain guidelines as ordained in the Quran to the best of ones abilities. Besides, there are GOD's signs, provisions, miracles, prophets/messengers and HIS creations, that one can ponder upon. Although there is no compulsion in Islam, there exists only two paths; GOD's and Satan's. Who leans towards who's path, more or less, decides his/her fate. GOD Almighty has shown us numerous ways in order to believe in HIM and evidently enough, so has Satan. You decide.Abdulla's Quote:
‘Mixing’ of the sexes would mean anyplace where men and women gather and can see each other without any restrictions.
Thus the concept of 'ridha', 'burkha' and 'segregation' is traditional, rather hadithic and not Quranic.
PEACE.
Re: separation of men and women in the masjid
sheikh,
no worries - I took no offense.
On the note of social separation of the sexes, I do think that it is to some extent (at least in the context of jamaat) symbolic. Islam doesn't seem to mandate that men and women remain separate in social contexts, only that their behaviour and dress around one another remain modest.
In Bohra society, for one, men and women seem to mix pretty freely.
no worries - I took no offense.
On the note of social separation of the sexes, I do think that it is to some extent (at least in the context of jamaat) symbolic. Islam doesn't seem to mandate that men and women remain separate in social contexts, only that their behaviour and dress around one another remain modest.
In Bohra society, for one, men and women seem to mix pretty freely.