we are not seeing a constructive debate on this particular issue, it should be the issue for all of us who call themselves bohras. it is known fact that syedna saheb is ill, he is over 94 years old, he would hardly be able to lead the dawat in future, even in near future. i am sure right now in his own family, this is a question, being by probed by every one in his inner and outer circles, all vested intrest should be playing their own cards, the intriguing nature of succession has made it more worldly than heavenly,it is like prince(s) fighting to grab the very throne, they had clung for so many years.
at the age of 94 syedna saheb is very active. but having ruled for such a long time should be exhausting, and then he also knows, that what are differences in his own family, between his sons and his brothers. mazoom saheb in distant past had claimed that he is the holder of nuss, and then if we could recall the nafisa ali episode, and the whole thing was thumped down, for past several years, muffadal bhai saheb was the hot favourite, but since last two years, he has actually faded from the scene, now that leaves syedna saheb's eldest son qaid joher bhai saheb. so far as i know that he has an attitude, he was not very active in his earlier years, his sons and other family members were not that active compared to muffadal bhai saheb family, specially his inlaws, like syedul khai bs who was an amil of surat, and juzer bs, who was incharge of zarih in jordon, and his sons. his brother in law had complication with mazoom saheb and his family. in all this intrigue are we able to find sprituality and essence of religion anywhere. it seems like this is an old fashion imperial style monarchy, which has deal with the enourmous wealth it has gather, now need to be taken/handed over. where and what is the status of follower, they have never been consulted before, will they be taken into account before deciding, which i doubt. in all previous nass, mazoom had played the important role, now the charis of mazoom and mukasir are no longer rendered important, and in all respect, syedna saheb's sons were running the affairs. though even according to jamia version of interpretation of our belief, dai's son do not occupy any specific place in the whole scheme. so when they were running the whole show, were they fullfilling the religious sermons, or just using the benefit of being born in syedna's family. lately there was not much mention of immam uz zaman narrations, his comminucation with the dai, so now the question arises that the next dai, will be nominated by present dai, let us put it like this that the next dai will be a mere nominee of dai, or will he claim to be nominted in accordance with immam uz zaman's ilham(divine order).
succession
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accountability
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Re: succession
I would specially like Mr.Insaf to shed some light on this, as he is well versed in our history, if he may tell us how other nuss (take over) were performed, and what actuall went immediatley after the nuss, were all our dais nominated before the death of the incumbent, or was it after the death that it happened. I have heard that one dai was only nominated a manager dai, not the dai mutlaq.Originally posted by accountability:
we are not seeing a constructive debate on this particular issue, it should be the issue for all of us who call themselves bohras. it is known fact that syedna saheb is ill, he is over 94 years old, he would hardly be able to lead the dawat in future, even in near future. i am sure right now in his own family, this is a question, being by probed by every one in his inner and outer circles, all vested intrest should be playing their own cards, the intriguing nature of succession has made it more worldly than heavenly,it is like prince(s) fighting to grab the very throne, they had clung for so many years.
at the age of 94 syedna saheb is very active. but having ruled for such a long time should be exhausting, and then he also knows, that what are differences in his own family, between his sons and his brothers. mazoom saheb in distant past had claimed that he is the holder of nuss, and then if we could recall the nafisa ali episode, and the whole thing was thumped down, for past several years, muffadal bhai saheb was the hot favourite, but since last two years, he has actually faded from the scene, now that leaves syedna saheb's eldest son qaid joher bhai saheb. so far as i know that he has an attitude, he was not very active in his earlier years, his sons and other family members were not that active compared to muffadal bhai saheb family, specially his inlaws, like syedul khai bs who was an amil of surat, and juzer bs, who was incharge of zarih in jordon, and his sons. his brother in law had complication with mazoom saheb and his family. in all this intrigue are we able to find sprituality and essence of religion anywhere. it seems like this is an old fashion imperial style monarchy, which has deal with the enourmous wealth it has gather, now need to be taken/handed over. where and what is the status of follower, they have never been consulted before, will they be taken into account before deciding, which i doubt. in all previous nass, mazoom had played the important role, now the charis of mazoom and mukasir are no longer rendered important, and in all respect, syedna saheb's sons were running the affairs. though even according to jamia version of interpretation of our belief, dai's son do not occupy any specific place in the whole scheme. so when they were running the whole show, were they fullfilling the religious sermons, or just using the benefit of being born in syedna's family. lately there was not much mention of immam uz zaman narrations, his comminucation with the dai, so now the question arises that the next dai, will be nominated by present dai, let us put it like this that the next dai will be a mere nominee of dai, or will he claim to be nominted in accordance with immam uz zaman's ilham(divine order).
Re: succession
About concept of Nass in our faith I would try to trace the history as briefly as possible.
According to Bohra Ismaili Faith, the succession of Dai is governed by Divine right of Nass (inspired by Imamuz-Zaman) and not by inheritance or democratic election.
The best and most learned member of the community (who has been educated and trained in Fatami Lodge, like Jamiya-Saifiyah and has been upgraded as Mulla, Saikh, Mazoon and Mukasir) is chosen by the existing Dai before his death, and his choice is approved by Divine inspiration from Imam and nomination is further declared publicly in an assembly of faithful.
Due to political situation the concept of Dawat (Ismaili propaganda) was devised just before the death of 5th Ismaili Imam Molana Jaferus-Sadiq in 763 A.D. Political situation was so bad that his son 6th Ismaili Imam, Molana Ismail Mastur went seclusion in Basra. Dais (propagandists) were spread all over the Muslim world during 11th Imam, Molana Mahdi. During Imams’ time Dais worked under the direct orders of the Imams and their Hujjas (pontiffs). Looking to the human weaknesses of Dais during 18th Imam Molana Mustansir Billah Dai Ahmed bin Mohammed Neshapuri listed down 94 qualifications for Dai. This itself shows that Dai is NOT infallible otherwise there was no need for the Imam to prescribed the qualities essential for Dai.
When 20th Imam Molana Amir-Billah and his lieutenant (Dai-Balag) Yahya were murdered the charge was given to Maulatana Hurratul-Malaka. She was the Hujjat of Imam, a position superior to Dai. Hurratul Malaka was Hujjat, Sayedna Khttab was her Dail-Balag and Sayedna Zoeb was her Dail-Mutlaq. After the death of Maulatana Hurratul-Malaka the post of Hujjat and Dail-Balag disappeared and chain of Dail-Mutlaq started with Sayedna Zoeb.
First requirement is that a Dai must the best and most learned member of the community, his choice must be approved by Divine inspiration from Imam and the existing Dai must declare his nomination openly and publicly in an assembly of faithful. But then there came few turns in the history when we see some diversions.
1588 A.D. 26th Dai Sayedna Daud bin Ajabshah chose Daud bin Kutubshah as 27th Dai. But one Suleman disregarded his nomination by showing a letter of late Sayedna Daud bin Ajabshah, which divided the Bohras into Daudis and Slemanis. If 26th Dai had appointed 27th Dai with divine inspiration of Imam and had declared it publicly and openly why this dispute?
In 1840 A.D. 46th Dai Sayedna Mohammed Badruddin Saheb at the young age of 30 suddenly died because of poisoning, without appointing his successor. Sayedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb became the 27th Dai but many ulemas even today believe that he was validly appointed and he can be accepted as Nazim-Dai (charge de facto) and not as Dail-Mutlaq.
According to late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb’s statement in Burhanpur Dargah case “After Sayedna Zoeb there has been no authentic record of any Dail-Mutlaq having established contact with the hidden Imam. He also quoted the incident of Sayedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb and described how two Bohras went in search of Imamu-zaman but came back without any trace of him.
According to Bohra Ismaili Faith, the succession of Dai is governed by Divine right of Nass (inspired by Imamuz-Zaman) and not by inheritance or democratic election.
The best and most learned member of the community (who has been educated and trained in Fatami Lodge, like Jamiya-Saifiyah and has been upgraded as Mulla, Saikh, Mazoon and Mukasir) is chosen by the existing Dai before his death, and his choice is approved by Divine inspiration from Imam and nomination is further declared publicly in an assembly of faithful.
Due to political situation the concept of Dawat (Ismaili propaganda) was devised just before the death of 5th Ismaili Imam Molana Jaferus-Sadiq in 763 A.D. Political situation was so bad that his son 6th Ismaili Imam, Molana Ismail Mastur went seclusion in Basra. Dais (propagandists) were spread all over the Muslim world during 11th Imam, Molana Mahdi. During Imams’ time Dais worked under the direct orders of the Imams and their Hujjas (pontiffs). Looking to the human weaknesses of Dais during 18th Imam Molana Mustansir Billah Dai Ahmed bin Mohammed Neshapuri listed down 94 qualifications for Dai. This itself shows that Dai is NOT infallible otherwise there was no need for the Imam to prescribed the qualities essential for Dai.
When 20th Imam Molana Amir-Billah and his lieutenant (Dai-Balag) Yahya were murdered the charge was given to Maulatana Hurratul-Malaka. She was the Hujjat of Imam, a position superior to Dai. Hurratul Malaka was Hujjat, Sayedna Khttab was her Dail-Balag and Sayedna Zoeb was her Dail-Mutlaq. After the death of Maulatana Hurratul-Malaka the post of Hujjat and Dail-Balag disappeared and chain of Dail-Mutlaq started with Sayedna Zoeb.
First requirement is that a Dai must the best and most learned member of the community, his choice must be approved by Divine inspiration from Imam and the existing Dai must declare his nomination openly and publicly in an assembly of faithful. But then there came few turns in the history when we see some diversions.
1588 A.D. 26th Dai Sayedna Daud bin Ajabshah chose Daud bin Kutubshah as 27th Dai. But one Suleman disregarded his nomination by showing a letter of late Sayedna Daud bin Ajabshah, which divided the Bohras into Daudis and Slemanis. If 26th Dai had appointed 27th Dai with divine inspiration of Imam and had declared it publicly and openly why this dispute?
In 1840 A.D. 46th Dai Sayedna Mohammed Badruddin Saheb at the young age of 30 suddenly died because of poisoning, without appointing his successor. Sayedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb became the 27th Dai but many ulemas even today believe that he was validly appointed and he can be accepted as Nazim-Dai (charge de facto) and not as Dail-Mutlaq.
According to late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb’s statement in Burhanpur Dargah case “After Sayedna Zoeb there has been no authentic record of any Dail-Mutlaq having established contact with the hidden Imam. He also quoted the incident of Sayedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb and described how two Bohras went in search of Imamu-zaman but came back without any trace of him.
Re: succession
Please read as .... many ulemas even today believe that he was NOT validly appointed and he can be accepted as Nazim-Dai (charge de facto) and not as Dail-Mutlaq.
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accountability
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Re: succession
thankyou insaf for your valuable informations, there was a movement in late or mid eighties, that present mazoom sahbe has declared that he is the successor after syedna burhanuddin, and i have heared that many elderlies from jamia also validated his claim, but were driven out of jamia. can you enlighten me that religiously can a dai appoint successor upon successor, if the nuss had to be validated by divine order, and if so, and if claim of mazoom saheb was really valid, then the question arises, even he somehow opts out of the race for any reason. but his appointment was valid and according to our faith, then whoever gets nominated besides mazoom saheb, will not be the true dai, and will lack the legitimacy and also lack the divine order. i think this is a very important question, and the answer to this is vital for our faith.
Re: succession
What is it?
Is the Imam inspired to choose the next Dai or is the Dai inspired to choose his successor?
Does Imam approve the Dai's choice, having confirmed his inspiration?
And do pigs fly?
Since Imam is not in communication with Dai, this discussion is pontless. Bohra orthodoxy requires no input from Imam. It is the Dai's choice. Whether he is divinely inspired or not, or whether he decides on the basis of politics, the faithful will go along with whoever is nominated.
Dai's word is final. And Imam can go and jump........
Is the Imam inspired to choose the next Dai or is the Dai inspired to choose his successor?
Does Imam approve the Dai's choice, having confirmed his inspiration?
And do pigs fly?
Since Imam is not in communication with Dai, this discussion is pontless. Bohra orthodoxy requires no input from Imam. It is the Dai's choice. Whether he is divinely inspired or not, or whether he decides on the basis of politics, the faithful will go along with whoever is nominated.
Dai's word is final. And Imam can go and jump........
Re: succession
There is a very minute sub sect in bohras called "Mehdi Baugh Wallas" OR "Nagpur Wallas" (as they originated from Nagpur and still a majority lives there). They have defected some three or four dais back over the validity of a Nass. I am curious to know if that is the sect which split away after the 46th dai Sayedna Badruddin. They have their own dai and mazoom (minus the opulance of kothar). Till the last decade, the dawoodi bohras were prohibited from having any social relations with this minute sub sect but recently the dai has given "raza" to invite the mehdi baugh wallas in jamatkhanas during personal jamans. I also heard that they are willing to get back in the Dawoodi fold with a mass misaq but it may as well be a kothari propoganda.Originally posted by S. Insaf:
In 1840 A.D. 46th Dai Sayedna Mohammed Badruddin Saheb at the young age of 30 suddenly died because of poisoning, without appointing his successor. Sayedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb became the 27th Dai but many ulemas even today believe that he was NOT validly appointed and he can be accepted as Nazim-Dai (charge de facto) and not as Dail-Mutlaq.
Re: succession
Bohras - Sects and Sub-sects
Sulemani Bohras – Dr. Brown in his book ‘Literary History of Persia and Al-Fakhri, the historian of Addaside and Fatimi dynasties say that Suleman could only influence the majority of Ismaili Bohras in Yemen about his claim of Sayedna Daud bin Ajabshah’s successor; therefore the majority of Sulemani Bohras remained and they still live in Yeman and their main Da'i also stays in Yemen. Most of them are of Arabian stock. It should also be noted that there are no substantial theological and doctrinal differences between the Sulemanis and Dawoodis. The dispute related to the question of succession alone. They also believe in doctrine of Misaq but Misaq is taken for Imam and their Dai uses no compulsion for it.
The Alia Bohras – When 29th Dai Sayedna Abdul Tayeb Zakiuddin succeeded Sayedna Sheikh Adam Safiyuddin in 1612 A.D. the community once more split on the question of succession. Sayedna Sheikh Adam Safiyuddin's grandson, Ali became the claimant this time. Ali took the matter to the court of Jehangir in Lahore who, according to the Bohra sources, gave decision in favour of Sayedna Abdul Tayeb Zakiuddin Saheb. However, a small group followed Ali bin Ibrahim and came to be known as Alia Bohras. Their number does not exceed 10,000.
Nagpuri Bohras – After the dispute about ‘nass’ during 47th Dai 47th, 48th, 49th and 50th Dais did claim the title of Dail-Mutlaq. Even 51st Dai Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb did not claim the title of Dail-Mutlaq in Chandabhoy Galla case and Burhanpur Dargah case. But after defeat in thse two cases he started writing Dail-Mutlaq in front of his name. That became a matter of dispute among Dawoodi Bohra ulema. So the split among the Dawoodis again occurred in the late 19th century on the question of 'nass.' A new sect Nagpuri Bohras was formed. They say that the 46th Da'i, Syedna Badruddin died before making proper 'nass and Sayedna Abdul Qader Najmuddin Saheb took over, but he was not accepted as the Dai'i unanimously. Many accepted him only as a nazim (in charge), not as a legitimate one. Among all the sect maximum Lanats (curses) are showered on Nagpurias.
Thereafter again a new sect came into existence when a young talented businessman of Kapadwanj claimed to have established communion with the Imam in seclusion, and that he was appointed hujjat (the highest functionary after Imam). Those who followed him are known as Mehdibaghwala.
Atab-e-Malak Vakil - However, this tiny community again split on the question of succession Abdul Husain Jiwajee who now called himself Hujjat-e-Qa'im appointed Maulana Vakil Saheb who proclaimed himself as the Qa'im. He also had appointed one Ghulam Hussain (Khan Bahadur H.H.Malik) as hijab (an important functionary of Imam).
Some accepted his son, Muhammad Rleso as his rightful successor. They were known as Mehdibaghwala where as the former group was called Atab-e-Malak Vakil.
Sulemani Bohras – Dr. Brown in his book ‘Literary History of Persia and Al-Fakhri, the historian of Addaside and Fatimi dynasties say that Suleman could only influence the majority of Ismaili Bohras in Yemen about his claim of Sayedna Daud bin Ajabshah’s successor; therefore the majority of Sulemani Bohras remained and they still live in Yeman and their main Da'i also stays in Yemen. Most of them are of Arabian stock. It should also be noted that there are no substantial theological and doctrinal differences between the Sulemanis and Dawoodis. The dispute related to the question of succession alone. They also believe in doctrine of Misaq but Misaq is taken for Imam and their Dai uses no compulsion for it.
The Alia Bohras – When 29th Dai Sayedna Abdul Tayeb Zakiuddin succeeded Sayedna Sheikh Adam Safiyuddin in 1612 A.D. the community once more split on the question of succession. Sayedna Sheikh Adam Safiyuddin's grandson, Ali became the claimant this time. Ali took the matter to the court of Jehangir in Lahore who, according to the Bohra sources, gave decision in favour of Sayedna Abdul Tayeb Zakiuddin Saheb. However, a small group followed Ali bin Ibrahim and came to be known as Alia Bohras. Their number does not exceed 10,000.
Nagpuri Bohras – After the dispute about ‘nass’ during 47th Dai 47th, 48th, 49th and 50th Dais did claim the title of Dail-Mutlaq. Even 51st Dai Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb did not claim the title of Dail-Mutlaq in Chandabhoy Galla case and Burhanpur Dargah case. But after defeat in thse two cases he started writing Dail-Mutlaq in front of his name. That became a matter of dispute among Dawoodi Bohra ulema. So the split among the Dawoodis again occurred in the late 19th century on the question of 'nass.' A new sect Nagpuri Bohras was formed. They say that the 46th Da'i, Syedna Badruddin died before making proper 'nass and Sayedna Abdul Qader Najmuddin Saheb took over, but he was not accepted as the Dai'i unanimously. Many accepted him only as a nazim (in charge), not as a legitimate one. Among all the sect maximum Lanats (curses) are showered on Nagpurias.
Thereafter again a new sect came into existence when a young talented businessman of Kapadwanj claimed to have established communion with the Imam in seclusion, and that he was appointed hujjat (the highest functionary after Imam). Those who followed him are known as Mehdibaghwala.
Atab-e-Malak Vakil - However, this tiny community again split on the question of succession Abdul Husain Jiwajee who now called himself Hujjat-e-Qa'im appointed Maulana Vakil Saheb who proclaimed himself as the Qa'im. He also had appointed one Ghulam Hussain (Khan Bahadur H.H.Malik) as hijab (an important functionary of Imam).
Some accepted his son, Muhammad Rleso as his rightful successor. They were known as Mehdibaghwala where as the former group was called Atab-e-Malak Vakil.
Re: succession
Please read as ....47th, 48th, 49th and 50th Dais did NOT claim the title of Dail-Mutlaq.
Re: succession
Very sorry friends, a gross mistake has occurred in giving reference. It is due to summarizing the data from the database.
Dr Brown and Al-Fakhri have reflected their views about the dispute between the followers of Imam Ismail Mastur and Imam Musa Kazim.
About the dispute between Sulemani and Daudi Bohras the reference is from Prf. A.A.A. Fazee’s book on ‘History and philosophy of Ismailis’.
Dr Brown and Al-Fakhri have reflected their views about the dispute between the followers of Imam Ismail Mastur and Imam Musa Kazim.
About the dispute between Sulemani and Daudi Bohras the reference is from Prf. A.A.A. Fazee’s book on ‘History and philosophy of Ismailis’.
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jamanpasand
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Re: succession
S.Insaf
What is difference between Dai-Balag and Dai-Mutlaq. Who is more superior?
What is difference between Dai-Balag and Dai-Mutlaq. Who is more superior?
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jamanpasand
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Re: succession
S.Insaf write-up was written in haste and carrries
errors in dates and order of events.
The undermentioned article on this site will give a good insight of the splits.
Inter-sectarian disputes among Indian Isma'ilis
The Badri-Vakili Controversy
By Yoginder Sikand
errors in dates and order of events.
The undermentioned article on this site will give a good insight of the splits.
Inter-sectarian disputes among Indian Isma'ilis
The Badri-Vakili Controversy
By Yoginder Sikand
Re: succession
Dear Accountability! 43th Dai Abdeali Saifuddin was son of 41st Dai Sayedna Abdul Tayed Zakiuddin, 44th Dai Mohammed Izzuddin was 1st son of Sheikh Jeewanji, and 45th Dai Tayeb Zenuddin was 2nd son of Sheikh Jeewanji, 46th Dai Mohd. Badruddin was son of Abdeali Saifuddin.
Then came 47th Dai Abdulqdir Najmuddin son of Tayeb Zenuddin and grandfather of 51st Dai Sayedna Taher Saifuddin who was a disputed Dai. 48th Dai Abdulhusain Hushamuddin was also a son of Tayeb Zenuddin, 49th Dai Mohd. Burhanuddin was son of Abdulqadir Najmuddin and 50th Dai Abdullah Badruddin was son of Abdulhusain Hushamuddin. 51st Dai Taher Saifuddin was son of 49th Dai Mhd. Burhanuddin.
Dai Abdulqdir Najmuddin and Abdulhusain Hushamuddin were sons of Tayeb Zenuddin. This shows that since Abdulqadir Najmuddin the Dawat has remained in one family of Tayeb Zenuddin.
This was before the concentration of huge wealth in Taher Saifuddin’s family. But since 51st Dai could amass unimaginable huge wealth he hurriedly declared his son Burhanuddin as next Dai. Therefore in my personal opinion there is hardly any chance of Dawat going out of Taher Saifuddin’s family now.
51st Dai and thereafter any member of his family had NOT gone through the required education in Jamiyah to be Mulla, Sheikh, Mukasir, Mazoon and Dai.
Mazoon Khuzema Qutbuddin and Mukasir Husain BS are the brothers of Sayedna Burhanuddin from the same mother, Husaina I-saheba. You are right that initially Sayedna Tahir Saifuddin did try to project Mazoon Khuzema as the next Dai after Burhanuddin but Yusuf Najmuddin had differed. He made his son Sayedul Khair Sayedna’s son-in-law and started defaming Mazoon by projecting him as womanizer. This tussle is still on.
Reason why four senior ustads of Jamiah Surat were severely beaten and driven out was to threaten the other teachers, students and Amils who had started raising their voices against Kothar’s repressive policies. The charge by Yusuf Najmuddin against these ustads was that they did not consider the Dais after 46th Dai as legitimate. Later I found out from Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj that this is true.
Dear porus! Theoretically Dai chooses the best persons from among the community members and declares him Dai after the approval of Imamuz-Zaman. You are since Dai is not in contact of Imam this point is pointless. But that the appointed person should be the best and well qualified and the declaration of his appointment as next must be open and public leaving no ambiguity still remain valid.
Dear Jamanpasand! When Imams were rulers Dail-Balag used be their lieutenants. The last Dail-Balag Yahya bin Lamak was the governor of Yemen and lieutenant of 20th Imam Amir-Billah. There used to be three categories during Imam as rulers, Hujjat (Senior Pontiff), Dail-Balag (lieutenant) and Dail-Mutlaq (propagandist). Bilkise-Islam Maulatena Hurratul Malaka was Hujjat, 1st Yemeni Dai Sayedna Zoeb was Dail-Balag. There after Dais were as Dail-Mutlaq. So Balag is a superior position than Mutlaq.
Then came 47th Dai Abdulqdir Najmuddin son of Tayeb Zenuddin and grandfather of 51st Dai Sayedna Taher Saifuddin who was a disputed Dai. 48th Dai Abdulhusain Hushamuddin was also a son of Tayeb Zenuddin, 49th Dai Mohd. Burhanuddin was son of Abdulqadir Najmuddin and 50th Dai Abdullah Badruddin was son of Abdulhusain Hushamuddin. 51st Dai Taher Saifuddin was son of 49th Dai Mhd. Burhanuddin.
Dai Abdulqdir Najmuddin and Abdulhusain Hushamuddin were sons of Tayeb Zenuddin. This shows that since Abdulqadir Najmuddin the Dawat has remained in one family of Tayeb Zenuddin.
This was before the concentration of huge wealth in Taher Saifuddin’s family. But since 51st Dai could amass unimaginable huge wealth he hurriedly declared his son Burhanuddin as next Dai. Therefore in my personal opinion there is hardly any chance of Dawat going out of Taher Saifuddin’s family now.
51st Dai and thereafter any member of his family had NOT gone through the required education in Jamiyah to be Mulla, Sheikh, Mukasir, Mazoon and Dai.
Mazoon Khuzema Qutbuddin and Mukasir Husain BS are the brothers of Sayedna Burhanuddin from the same mother, Husaina I-saheba. You are right that initially Sayedna Tahir Saifuddin did try to project Mazoon Khuzema as the next Dai after Burhanuddin but Yusuf Najmuddin had differed. He made his son Sayedul Khair Sayedna’s son-in-law and started defaming Mazoon by projecting him as womanizer. This tussle is still on.
Reason why four senior ustads of Jamiah Surat were severely beaten and driven out was to threaten the other teachers, students and Amils who had started raising their voices against Kothar’s repressive policies. The charge by Yusuf Najmuddin against these ustads was that they did not consider the Dais after 46th Dai as legitimate. Later I found out from Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj that this is true.
Dear porus! Theoretically Dai chooses the best persons from among the community members and declares him Dai after the approval of Imamuz-Zaman. You are since Dai is not in contact of Imam this point is pointless. But that the appointed person should be the best and well qualified and the declaration of his appointment as next must be open and public leaving no ambiguity still remain valid.
Dear Jamanpasand! When Imams were rulers Dail-Balag used be their lieutenants. The last Dail-Balag Yahya bin Lamak was the governor of Yemen and lieutenant of 20th Imam Amir-Billah. There used to be three categories during Imam as rulers, Hujjat (Senior Pontiff), Dail-Balag (lieutenant) and Dail-Mutlaq (propagandist). Bilkise-Islam Maulatena Hurratul Malaka was Hujjat, 1st Yemeni Dai Sayedna Zoeb was Dail-Balag. There after Dais were as Dail-Mutlaq. So Balag is a superior position than Mutlaq.
Re: succession
Hujjat, al-Balagh, al-Mutlaq, al-Maazoon and al-Mukasir were all appointees to extend the function of the daawa during the latter part of the khulafa of Bani Fatema. There was no suggestion then that these were "divine" appointments. Only the last three remain in Bohras.
Imam, Hujjat and al-Balagh are gone and they are completely irrelevant today to succesion issue. Imam is invoked to maintain a tenuous link to orthodoxy since all the prayers make reference to him and his ancestors.
Imam, Hujjat and al-Balagh are gone and they are completely irrelevant today to succesion issue. Imam is invoked to maintain a tenuous link to orthodoxy since all the prayers make reference to him and his ancestors.
Re: succession
When Dawat was a mission to call people of other faith and pursue them to accept the Ismaili faith, it was the function of Mukasir to have dialogues with them and it was Mazoon's function to further convinced them and once they are convinced take them to Dai and convert them. Today no such functions are seen. On the contrary those who are born in the faith are asked to leave. Mullas, Mashaikh, Mukasir and Mazoon are NOT qualified from Jamiya and have come their position progressively. This is my personal feeling that the present Dai must be asking some heavy price even for the next Dai. That is why there is such a delay. Therefore I have not mentioned the name of Mazoon or Mukasir.
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: succession
S.Insaf
Your write-up on inter-relationship of past dais was very interesting.
It has gone in my permanent collection.
It would be interesting to the readers, if you could put some facts on the inter-relation of some of the heavyweights from this list :
BEHLA BHAI SAHEB MOHIYUDDIN DR. MOIZ BHAI SAHEB
SYEDI MUKASIR SAHEB JIVANJEE BHAI SAHEB SHZ.HATIM BHAI SAHEB HAMIDUDDIN JOONE BHAI SAHEB ZAKIUDDIN SHZ.QASIM BHAI SAHEB HAKIMUDDIN JUZER BHAISAHEB NAJMUDDIN
SHZ.ALI ASGER BHAI SAHEB KALIMUDDIN KHADIR BHAISAHEB ZAKIUDDIN
SHZ.SHABBIR BHAI SAHEB NOORUDDIN KAUSERALI BHAISAHEB NAJMUDDIN
SHZ ABBAS BHAI SAHEB FAKHRUDDIN MEHLAM BHAI SAHEBYUNUS BHAI SAHEB SHZ.MOHAMMADUL BAQIR JAMALUDDIN MUDER BHAI SAHEB JAMALUDDIN
SHZ.QAID JOHER BHAI SAHEB EZZUDDIN MUDREKA BHAI SAHEB ZAKIUDDIN
SHZ.MUFADDAL BHAI SAHEB SAIFUDDIN MUNIRA BEN SAHEB TAMIM BHAI SAHEB SHZ.MALEKUL ASHTER BHAI SAHEB SHUJAUDDIN MURTAZA BHAI SAHEB SHEHABUDDIN SHZ.HUZEFA BHAI SAHEB MOHIYUDDIN MUSTAFA BHAI SAHEB ABIALI BHAI SAHEB SHZ.IDREES BHAI SAHEB BADRUDDIN 3682236 SHAMOIL BHAI SAHEB SHEHABUDDIN SHZ.QUSAI BHAI SAHEB VAJIHUDDIN TAHA BHAI SAHEB HAKIMUDDIN
SHZ.AMMAR BHAI SAHEB JAMALUDDIN YUNUS BHAI SAHEB SHZDI.AMATUZ-ZEHRA BENSAHEB YUSUF BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
SHZDI SAKINA BENSAHEB ABDULHUSAIN BHAI SAHEB JAMALUDDIN
SHZDI BATUL BENSAHEB SHABBIR BHAI SAHEB NOMANI SHZDI HUSENA BENSAHEB ISMAIL BHAI SAHEB EZZI
SHIRIN BENSAHEB HUSAMUDDIN ABDEABITURAB BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
BILQIS BENSAHEB ZAKIUDDIN ALIASGER BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
FATEMA BENSAHEB NAJMUDDIN JUZER BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
SHIRIN BENSAHEB SHEHABUDDIN ZOEB BHAI SAHEB A .NOMANI ABDE-MUSTAALI BHAI SAHEB ZAKIUDDIN SAFFUDDIN . BHAI SAHEB NOMANI
ABDO-ABITALIB BHAI SAHEB HUSAMUDDIN
ABIALI BHAI SAHEB HUSAMUDDIN
ABIZER BHAI SAHEB HUSAMUDDIN
BADRUL JAMALI BHAI NAJMUDDIN
Your write-up on inter-relationship of past dais was very interesting.
It has gone in my permanent collection.
It would be interesting to the readers, if you could put some facts on the inter-relation of some of the heavyweights from this list :
BEHLA BHAI SAHEB MOHIYUDDIN DR. MOIZ BHAI SAHEB
SYEDI MUKASIR SAHEB JIVANJEE BHAI SAHEB SHZ.HATIM BHAI SAHEB HAMIDUDDIN JOONE BHAI SAHEB ZAKIUDDIN SHZ.QASIM BHAI SAHEB HAKIMUDDIN JUZER BHAISAHEB NAJMUDDIN
SHZ.ALI ASGER BHAI SAHEB KALIMUDDIN KHADIR BHAISAHEB ZAKIUDDIN
SHZ.SHABBIR BHAI SAHEB NOORUDDIN KAUSERALI BHAISAHEB NAJMUDDIN
SHZ ABBAS BHAI SAHEB FAKHRUDDIN MEHLAM BHAI SAHEBYUNUS BHAI SAHEB SHZ.MOHAMMADUL BAQIR JAMALUDDIN MUDER BHAI SAHEB JAMALUDDIN
SHZ.QAID JOHER BHAI SAHEB EZZUDDIN MUDREKA BHAI SAHEB ZAKIUDDIN
SHZ.MUFADDAL BHAI SAHEB SAIFUDDIN MUNIRA BEN SAHEB TAMIM BHAI SAHEB SHZ.MALEKUL ASHTER BHAI SAHEB SHUJAUDDIN MURTAZA BHAI SAHEB SHEHABUDDIN SHZ.HUZEFA BHAI SAHEB MOHIYUDDIN MUSTAFA BHAI SAHEB ABIALI BHAI SAHEB SHZ.IDREES BHAI SAHEB BADRUDDIN 3682236 SHAMOIL BHAI SAHEB SHEHABUDDIN SHZ.QUSAI BHAI SAHEB VAJIHUDDIN TAHA BHAI SAHEB HAKIMUDDIN
SHZ.AMMAR BHAI SAHEB JAMALUDDIN YUNUS BHAI SAHEB SHZDI.AMATUZ-ZEHRA BENSAHEB YUSUF BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
SHZDI SAKINA BENSAHEB ABDULHUSAIN BHAI SAHEB JAMALUDDIN
SHZDI BATUL BENSAHEB SHABBIR BHAI SAHEB NOMANI SHZDI HUSENA BENSAHEB ISMAIL BHAI SAHEB EZZI
SHIRIN BENSAHEB HUSAMUDDIN ABDEABITURAB BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
BILQIS BENSAHEB ZAKIUDDIN ALIASGER BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
FATEMA BENSAHEB NAJMUDDIN JUZER BHAI SAHEB SHAKIR
SHIRIN BENSAHEB SHEHABUDDIN ZOEB BHAI SAHEB A .NOMANI ABDE-MUSTAALI BHAI SAHEB ZAKIUDDIN SAFFUDDIN . BHAI SAHEB NOMANI
ABDO-ABITALIB BHAI SAHEB HUSAMUDDIN
ABIALI BHAI SAHEB HUSAMUDDIN
ABIZER BHAI SAHEB HUSAMUDDIN
BADRUL JAMALI BHAI NAJMUDDIN
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: succession
quoted from S.Insaf
This is my personal feeling that the present Dai must be asking some heavy price even for the next Dai. That is why there is such a delay.
Unquote
At this age of 94, what he will do with heavy price? Take from one son and give it to others or take from his brother and give it to his sons.
Come on. Be realistic!!!
This is my personal feeling that the present Dai must be asking some heavy price even for the next Dai. That is why there is such a delay.
Unquote
At this age of 94, what he will do with heavy price? Take from one son and give it to others or take from his brother and give it to his sons.
Come on. Be realistic!!!
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: succession
Not making a succession plan was the biggest failure of Syedna Burhanuddin.
What prevented him from doing so? I my opinion, it was the threat of Yusuf Najmuddin in the beginning period, then Mazoon – Nafisa Ali scandal and finally he sees a real confrontation amongst his many grown up sons. If one son gets the honour, not only other sons will be sidelined but their entire generation will be forgotten.
Can there be other angles ?
What prevented him from doing so? I my opinion, it was the threat of Yusuf Najmuddin in the beginning period, then Mazoon – Nafisa Ali scandal and finally he sees a real confrontation amongst his many grown up sons. If one son gets the honour, not only other sons will be sidelined but their entire generation will be forgotten.
Can there be other angles ?
Re: succession
At this age of 94, what he will do with heavy price? Come on. Be realistic!!!
It is said that there is a voice coming out from HELL constantly "Hul mun muzeed" (I want more). That symbolises greed for money. And Sayedna Saheb's greed for money at this advanced age is so obvious. He is still charging huge price for Navazishat, like NKD, MKD, Sheikh etc.and collecting huge fund in the name of wajebat, Iftitahs etc. from the community. Still developing properties. One may say that this is all done by his greedy family. But he can stop them rather he is encrouging them by his direct involvement. Nothing is free in his administration. That gives me a feeling about appointment of next Dai.
It is said that there is a voice coming out from HELL constantly "Hul mun muzeed" (I want more). That symbolises greed for money. And Sayedna Saheb's greed for money at this advanced age is so obvious. He is still charging huge price for Navazishat, like NKD, MKD, Sheikh etc.and collecting huge fund in the name of wajebat, Iftitahs etc. from the community. Still developing properties. One may say that this is all done by his greedy family. But he can stop them rather he is encrouging them by his direct involvement. Nothing is free in his administration. That gives me a feeling about appointment of next Dai.
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: succession
I agree Syedna can say "Hul mun muzeed" (I want more) as he has many,many years to spend there.
But here he is 94 – merely few years to go. It is beyond me to grasp.
But here he is 94 – merely few years to go. It is beyond me to grasp.
Re: succession
Wow!!! I'm totally amazed that our Dawat has such a rich history of succession. However, I am quite perplexed that the references are from authors who are essentially non-bohras!!! Don't we have any scholars who may have written a definitive history in English for us to read and refer to please?
As for the greed of our Dai, I really don't think it's our Dai who is asking for these ridiculously huge amounts, but rather, it's the people around him. Here are a few examples of what people around the Dai have done. The Aamil of London never got posted to another country? He has wielded power absolutely! The Jamaats in East Africa have been totally corrupt in dealing with the poor mumineens, yet no action, whatsoever, taken on any one of the so called corrupt ayans? Which Jamaat - in ANY part of the world - has accounted for the monies collected and spent from Sabeel?
And here is one last question to all the faithfuls: "If we are so pure and clean in our Imaan, then how come we are not even practising the ONE thing we have always been taught, and that is...ACCOUNTABILITY to the very people who have contributed so much for the cause of Dawat?"
How nice to run a community, just like a State, and yet no one to account to?!!!
As for the greed of our Dai, I really don't think it's our Dai who is asking for these ridiculously huge amounts, but rather, it's the people around him. Here are a few examples of what people around the Dai have done. The Aamil of London never got posted to another country? He has wielded power absolutely! The Jamaats in East Africa have been totally corrupt in dealing with the poor mumineens, yet no action, whatsoever, taken on any one of the so called corrupt ayans? Which Jamaat - in ANY part of the world - has accounted for the monies collected and spent from Sabeel?
And here is one last question to all the faithfuls: "If we are so pure and clean in our Imaan, then how come we are not even practising the ONE thing we have always been taught, and that is...ACCOUNTABILITY to the very people who have contributed so much for the cause of Dawat?"
How nice to run a community, just like a State, and yet no one to account to?!!!
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: succession
That is the delima of our community, running like a state and not be accounted for, actually the state is a kingdom, kings dont like accounting, and kings take their people as properties and poccession, which they can spend, do away with or just throw them in garbage if need is done. i shall quote you an example, syedna saheb was in one maqdam majlis, i was there too, well there were not many people, but all those around him were pushing abusing people, i just stood in the corner, it was beyond me to be treated like that, so i did not try to salam, one elderly shaikh whom i knew was an old fashioned person, who believed in syedna saheb more than himself, but was not a big shot or the one who had bought sheikhdom for lacs of rupees, when he tried to go ahead and salam, one gaurd pushed him so badly that he fell down, he should be around 70 years old, and this is 20 year old story, almost of syedna saheb's age, not a single person tried to help the old man to stand up, i noted he lied ther for around whole minute, he was trying on his own but could not get hold of anything, it was impossible for me to be a mere spectator, i went to him helped him stand up, and he again was trying to do qadambosi, the way syedna saheb was sitting he should have witnessed the whole thing, but he was mere onlooker, i was filled with anger and frustration, but moreso i was feeling sorry, that what have become of us, not an iota of compassion and humanity left in us. i was thinking why syedna saheb wants us to be humilated, and downgraded, i was there because i had promised my mother and wife that i will go. even now when i think about this attitude, the utmost respect that he gets from his follower, why doesn't he reciprocate, everybody including me is ready to believe that he is our dai, and we are to respect him, but in exchange if we demand a similar attitude, from his coterie, that should not be much in asking.