There can be no comparison between the Sayedna and the Aga Khan in terms of taking care of the community. The latter has done a lot for the community and there's no question about it. Besides Ismailis generally are educated, progressive people. Or so it would seem. Blind devotion to the leader is rife in both communities. The imam, the bayah and his farman are taken unquestionably. There seems to as much cult about the Aga Khan as there is about the Sayedna. Wherever the imam goes Ismailis follow him in droves much like Bohra devotees following their Dai around the world.
In terms of the management of the community the general public has little idea. It can't be that things are so hunky-dory that people are completely satisfied. Or is dissent crushed like the way it is done by the Kothar?
By the way, do they have a name for their centralised administration like we have for the Kothar. How are funds collected, how much, and is there any accountability on how they are spent? What if you don't pay? What happens if you disobey the farman? What about the murids, how are they trained, appointed, what is their role/authority. I ask these questions because I'd really like to know, and I'm curious to know whether Ismailis have any problem with the system and the way it is managed and run.
Why don't we see any dissenting, questioning Islmailis on this board, I wonder. All I see Islmailis coming to here to defend their faith against "wahabis". Where are reformist Ismailis?
PS: I'm not questioning the faith and ideology of the Islmaili tariqa. I'm just concerned with the social setup, social power structure, the process of socialisation (brainwashing), tolerance of dissent and non-conformism, accountability and transparency etc. These are the concerns we Bohras are struggling with in our community. Do Ismailis have similar concerns?
Where are reformist Ismailis?
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Br. Humsafar
AS
Ismailism has degenerated into worshipping of "Taghuts"
Bohras are worshipping Husain, Mulla Burhan, His sons, Graves of various pious people.
Agakhnis are worshipping Karim Agakon. He is their Batini Allah.
Your first step should be to teach Bohras that Ismlam is not about worshipping Dead Imams or ‘Intezar’ of hidden Imam or Dai as his substitute.
One can be Bohra cast member and have cast leaders for Jamaat affairs but as far as religion is concerned you should be Muslim.
Wasalaam
.
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Taghut
The word “Taghut” covers a wide range of meanings: It means anything worshipped other then the REAL GOD [ALLAH], i.e. all the falls deities. It may be Satan, Devils, Idols, Stones, Sun, Stars, Angels, human beings (like Aga Kon,DAI, MULLAS, BHAI SAHEBS, SEHZADA’S ETC, ETC,) e.g., Messengers of Allah, who were falsely worshipped and taken as Taghut. Likewise Saints, graves, rulers and leaders (once again Dai)who are falsely worshipped and wrongly followed. Sometime Taghut means a false judge who gives a false judgment.
For reference to “Taghut” in Quran please study Ayahs 2:256- 257, 4:51, 4:60, 4:76, 5:60, 16:36, and 17:39
Comments in (***) are mine
-----
AS
Ismailism has degenerated into worshipping of "Taghuts"
Bohras are worshipping Husain, Mulla Burhan, His sons, Graves of various pious people.
Agakhnis are worshipping Karim Agakon. He is their Batini Allah.
Your first step should be to teach Bohras that Ismlam is not about worshipping Dead Imams or ‘Intezar’ of hidden Imam or Dai as his substitute.
One can be Bohra cast member and have cast leaders for Jamaat affairs but as far as religion is concerned you should be Muslim.
Wasalaam
.
----------
Taghut
The word “Taghut” covers a wide range of meanings: It means anything worshipped other then the REAL GOD [ALLAH], i.e. all the falls deities. It may be Satan, Devils, Idols, Stones, Sun, Stars, Angels, human beings (like Aga Kon,DAI, MULLAS, BHAI SAHEBS, SEHZADA’S ETC, ETC,) e.g., Messengers of Allah, who were falsely worshipped and taken as Taghut. Likewise Saints, graves, rulers and leaders (once again Dai)who are falsely worshipped and wrongly followed. Sometime Taghut means a false judge who gives a false judgment.
For reference to “Taghut” in Quran please study Ayahs 2:256- 257, 4:51, 4:60, 4:76, 5:60, 16:36, and 17:39
Comments in (***) are mine
-----
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
MF,
Humsafar is talking about the social aspects, not religious. Save your fumes for when you go home to your family.
Humsafar, I sent you a private message. Please respond.
Humsafar is talking about the social aspects, not religious. Save your fumes for when you go home to your family.
Humsafar, I sent you a private message. Please respond.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
MF,
I specifically said I'm not concerned with the religious issues and will not be drawn into it. However, let me say that your arrogance about who a "true Muslims" is is not only getting too self-righteous but runs contrary to the values of a true Muslim. A true Muslim is humble and non-judgemental. You mind your business and let Allah mind his.
One more thing, your definition of a muslim is so suffocating that if muslims actually accepted it 99% of them will die of asphyxiation. I'm sure you'll rather prefer that.
Anajmi, now please don't get provoked into flinging Yusuf Ali at me. I'm not interested.
Please all, do not divert this topic into a discussion that's beaten to death, over and over.
I specifically said I'm not concerned with the religious issues and will not be drawn into it. However, let me say that your arrogance about who a "true Muslims" is is not only getting too self-righteous but runs contrary to the values of a true Muslim. A true Muslim is humble and non-judgemental. You mind your business and let Allah mind his.
One more thing, your definition of a muslim is so suffocating that if muslims actually accepted it 99% of them will die of asphyxiation. I'm sure you'll rather prefer that.
Anajmi, now please don't get provoked into flinging Yusuf Ali at me. I'm not interested.
Please all, do not divert this topic into a discussion that's beaten to death, over and over.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Humsafar,
I prefer flinging you to yourself. That has actually proven more damaging. And no, I'm not interested in getting into that conversation either. You simply pretend to know what 99% of the muslims want.
I prefer flinging you to yourself. That has actually proven more damaging. And no, I'm not interested in getting into that conversation either. You simply pretend to know what 99% of the muslims want.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Social setup of Nizari Ismaili community
In Nizari Ismailism, the two branches of ones life, religious and social, although separate issues, are encouraged to be kept in balance with each other. The religious affairs are under the absolute control of the Imam and although we are allowed to question as to what, where and how, no one ever questions the “why” in religious matters to challenge the authority of the Imam. When one gives “bayyah” to the Imam of the time, s/he is basically accepting the fact that the Imam has complete control over our lives (mind, body, material, etc.). Those who are not satisfied or question the Imam’s authority are free to either stay in the fold or seek guidance elsewhere. The very basic belief of Shia branch of Islam is the necessity of an Imam from the progeny of Prophet Mohammad to continue Allah’s guidance to mankind. When someone gives bayyah to the Imam and then questions his authority, it negates his bayyah and defeats the very purpose and basic belief in the necessity of Imam.
The religious affairs, like I said earlier, are under absolute authority of the Imam. No one from his family even exercises any authority or is involved in the religious matters unless and until one becomes the next Imam or asked to oversee any matter by the current Imam.
The social aspect of the community is governed by various institutions created for that purpose only. Aside from the National/Regional councils and the Tariqa Board, who in turn have a network under them to oversee and report on religiouis affairs as well as social, there are other institutions who look after the jamaat’s interests in social welfare further divided into committees and sub committees like Youth and Sports, Committee for the welfare of the elderly, Education Board, Economic Planning Board, Health Board etc. etc. All these institutions, committees and sub-committees are run by qualified and able office bearers from within the community on a voluntary basis for a specified term (between 1 and 3 years).
To my understanding, all these committees are answerable to the Imam for accountability and transparency in their affairs. Ofcourse, like in all communities, there are times where someone would accuse an office bearer of certain committee of favoritism but we have a very respected Reconciliation and Arbitration Board for those instances. Everything is resolved within the community if the parties so choose and it hardly ever reaches the Imam unresolved. This is the reason why we do not have any reformists. A reform movement, in my opinion, should be focused on reforming the subjects and matters of worldly importance and consequences. Not having the family involved in the affairs of the community, religious or social, is the best method of transparency by the Imam himself.
Brother Humsafar, you mentioned in your post that the Ismailis follow their Imam in “droves” wherever he goes. That is not completely true. There are very very few Ismailis who would travel to see the Imam nowadays, unless invited for official purposes. Remember we are in thousands and hundreds of thousands in some concentrations and do not need a show of further force. As a matter of fact, whenever the Imam visits a country he has meetings with the government officials of that country besides giving mulaqat to his murids. That requires privacy and space for the Imam to conduct his business outside of religious gatherings, like Deedars. The jamaat is sometimes requested not to travel to a certain country if the community in that country is at its capacity to accept more members from other countries causing inconvenience and unnecessary burden on the resident jamat. The jamaat is also requested not to go near the buildings where the Imam is conducting his business with government officials or other institutions.
You also asked about the religious dues, the disobeying of Farmans, etc. These questions fall into the religious affairs category. You mentioned in you answer to MF that you were not interested in religious affairs of Ismaili community so I would just give sort of a fly over. The Ismailis are expected to pay 12.5% of their income to the Institution of Imamat. There is no negotiating that amount. Members are never forced to pay, nor are they asked to produce their W2s or tax returns to prove their incomes. The business of Zakat is strictly between and individual and Allah so if you don’t pay your dues, Allah will decide in the matter on the Day of Judgment. The jamati leaders do not enforce any penalty or punishment like baraat etc. We also do not have system of raza, chitti, ziafat, etc. like in the Bohra community. Donations are requested, never required. Wajibaats are few aside from Zakat. Ushr, Khums, Saddaqa are considered included in the Zakat paid yet many Ismailis do not step back from helping others, family or not. Recently the Imam has asked for donation of "time and knowledge" for needy around the world. No emphasis on monetary donations.
Farman’s are guidance to the jamaat and applies to different individuals according to their circumstances and situations. If one decides to not act upon the Farmans of the Imam they are free to do so. There is a difference between Imam’s guidance and exercise of Authority of Imam. One may act or not act upon his guidance but when it comes to religious affairs one must obey, even then the last is saved for the judgment day.
As for the appointment, training, etc. of the murids – Here again the answer would be two pronged. Religious and social. People are appointed from within the community who are educated, professionals and/or experienced in their fields. Those are the ones who are entrusted the authority over the affairs of the community and are expected to be honest and fair in their dealings. As for appointment to religious committees, again the knowledge and education is considered. These people only oversee and report to the Imam through proper channel. The final authority is with the Imam. The training and advanced educational opportunities are available to those who qualify through IIS in London and also at certain International Universities and educational institutions. We have a government within a government and mostly everything is smooth sailing.
Hope this helps.
The bigots need not participate unless they have something useful to offer.
In Nizari Ismailism, the two branches of ones life, religious and social, although separate issues, are encouraged to be kept in balance with each other. The religious affairs are under the absolute control of the Imam and although we are allowed to question as to what, where and how, no one ever questions the “why” in religious matters to challenge the authority of the Imam. When one gives “bayyah” to the Imam of the time, s/he is basically accepting the fact that the Imam has complete control over our lives (mind, body, material, etc.). Those who are not satisfied or question the Imam’s authority are free to either stay in the fold or seek guidance elsewhere. The very basic belief of Shia branch of Islam is the necessity of an Imam from the progeny of Prophet Mohammad to continue Allah’s guidance to mankind. When someone gives bayyah to the Imam and then questions his authority, it negates his bayyah and defeats the very purpose and basic belief in the necessity of Imam.
The religious affairs, like I said earlier, are under absolute authority of the Imam. No one from his family even exercises any authority or is involved in the religious matters unless and until one becomes the next Imam or asked to oversee any matter by the current Imam.
The social aspect of the community is governed by various institutions created for that purpose only. Aside from the National/Regional councils and the Tariqa Board, who in turn have a network under them to oversee and report on religiouis affairs as well as social, there are other institutions who look after the jamaat’s interests in social welfare further divided into committees and sub committees like Youth and Sports, Committee for the welfare of the elderly, Education Board, Economic Planning Board, Health Board etc. etc. All these institutions, committees and sub-committees are run by qualified and able office bearers from within the community on a voluntary basis for a specified term (between 1 and 3 years).
To my understanding, all these committees are answerable to the Imam for accountability and transparency in their affairs. Ofcourse, like in all communities, there are times where someone would accuse an office bearer of certain committee of favoritism but we have a very respected Reconciliation and Arbitration Board for those instances. Everything is resolved within the community if the parties so choose and it hardly ever reaches the Imam unresolved. This is the reason why we do not have any reformists. A reform movement, in my opinion, should be focused on reforming the subjects and matters of worldly importance and consequences. Not having the family involved in the affairs of the community, religious or social, is the best method of transparency by the Imam himself.
Brother Humsafar, you mentioned in your post that the Ismailis follow their Imam in “droves” wherever he goes. That is not completely true. There are very very few Ismailis who would travel to see the Imam nowadays, unless invited for official purposes. Remember we are in thousands and hundreds of thousands in some concentrations and do not need a show of further force. As a matter of fact, whenever the Imam visits a country he has meetings with the government officials of that country besides giving mulaqat to his murids. That requires privacy and space for the Imam to conduct his business outside of religious gatherings, like Deedars. The jamaat is sometimes requested not to travel to a certain country if the community in that country is at its capacity to accept more members from other countries causing inconvenience and unnecessary burden on the resident jamat. The jamaat is also requested not to go near the buildings where the Imam is conducting his business with government officials or other institutions.
You also asked about the religious dues, the disobeying of Farmans, etc. These questions fall into the religious affairs category. You mentioned in you answer to MF that you were not interested in religious affairs of Ismaili community so I would just give sort of a fly over. The Ismailis are expected to pay 12.5% of their income to the Institution of Imamat. There is no negotiating that amount. Members are never forced to pay, nor are they asked to produce their W2s or tax returns to prove their incomes. The business of Zakat is strictly between and individual and Allah so if you don’t pay your dues, Allah will decide in the matter on the Day of Judgment. The jamati leaders do not enforce any penalty or punishment like baraat etc. We also do not have system of raza, chitti, ziafat, etc. like in the Bohra community. Donations are requested, never required. Wajibaats are few aside from Zakat. Ushr, Khums, Saddaqa are considered included in the Zakat paid yet many Ismailis do not step back from helping others, family or not. Recently the Imam has asked for donation of "time and knowledge" for needy around the world. No emphasis on monetary donations.
Farman’s are guidance to the jamaat and applies to different individuals according to their circumstances and situations. If one decides to not act upon the Farmans of the Imam they are free to do so. There is a difference between Imam’s guidance and exercise of Authority of Imam. One may act or not act upon his guidance but when it comes to religious affairs one must obey, even then the last is saved for the judgment day.
As for the appointment, training, etc. of the murids – Here again the answer would be two pronged. Religious and social. People are appointed from within the community who are educated, professionals and/or experienced in their fields. Those are the ones who are entrusted the authority over the affairs of the community and are expected to be honest and fair in their dealings. As for appointment to religious committees, again the knowledge and education is considered. These people only oversee and report to the Imam through proper channel. The final authority is with the Imam. The training and advanced educational opportunities are available to those who qualify through IIS in London and also at certain International Universities and educational institutions. We have a government within a government and mostly everything is smooth sailing.
Hope this helps.
The bigots need not participate unless they have something useful to offer.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Wow pardesi, that's some detail. Thanks for taking the time to write that.
Two points: 1) You seemed to have glossed over the accountability and transparency bit. My question was more about the accountability to the public not the Imam. Does the paying public ever gets to know how their money is spent? Of course there's a great deal being done for the community so they can see where their money is going, but still for the sake of transparency what if a member wants to know what's happening to the community money?
2) Sorry, going down the religious road may be unavoidable. The bayah looks more like our misaq which has no doctrinal sanction. Does bayah have any? (Pardon my ignorance, several times I considered reading Daftary's book but it's daunting size deters me every time.)
I may have some more questions for later.
I must admit though that the Imam is wise to keep his family out of it, and what is important is that he does not - unlike the Kothar - rob people of their dignity.
Two points: 1) You seemed to have glossed over the accountability and transparency bit. My question was more about the accountability to the public not the Imam. Does the paying public ever gets to know how their money is spent? Of course there's a great deal being done for the community so they can see where their money is going, but still for the sake of transparency what if a member wants to know what's happening to the community money?
2) Sorry, going down the religious road may be unavoidable. The bayah looks more like our misaq which has no doctrinal sanction. Does bayah have any? (Pardon my ignorance, several times I considered reading Daftary's book but it's daunting size deters me every time.)
I may have some more questions for later.
I must admit though that the Imam is wise to keep his family out of it, and what is important is that he does not - unlike the Kothar - rob people of their dignity.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
The Imam is not an elected official therefore the question of accountability to the public does not arise. Besides, when one gives his religious dues to someone, in my opinion, the business is between Allah and the individual. Like in the Prophet's time, no one would dare ask for accountability from the Prophet because of the trust placed in him. Similarly when we give bayyah to the Imam, it is like placing complete trust in him. The individual is liable for the dues and therefore can't ask for accountability from whoever he gives his dues to. If you give zakat to a poor person you do not ask how and where he spent the money. This again is my opinion not an official Ismaili stand.
As for knowing where the money is being spent, again, one needs look no further than his surroundings and the AKDN website. And let Allah be the judge. When we give, we do not expect anything in return other than Allah's mercy and blessings.
Bayyah is more symbolic for us compared to your misaq. I read a misaq translation document and boy. Our Bayyah is given to the Imam of the time and misaq, as I understand, is taken in the name of the Dai who supposedly represents the Imam in concealment. The terms are somewhat similar between the both but for us there is nothing that forces us to do or uphold our part.
Trust me, and you are right, we are not robbed.
As for knowing where the money is being spent, again, one needs look no further than his surroundings and the AKDN website. And let Allah be the judge. When we give, we do not expect anything in return other than Allah's mercy and blessings.
Bayyah is more symbolic for us compared to your misaq. I read a misaq translation document and boy. Our Bayyah is given to the Imam of the time and misaq, as I understand, is taken in the name of the Dai who supposedly represents the Imam in concealment. The terms are somewhat similar between the both but for us there is nothing that forces us to do or uphold our part.
Trust me, and you are right, we are not robbed.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
One more thing. I think an enquiring mind should read Dr. Farhad Daftary's book. It is independent of any bias and written by a non-Ismaili without any or much influence from the institution. He is a Shia 12er and has described things according to his perspective.
Its a good source to start with.
Its a good source to start with.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Br. Humsafar
Pardesi is snake oil salesman.
Tru picture of Aga khais only can be gleamed from what common AK says.
Visit http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... file=index and spend some time reading thru various posts.
Truth comes out of Babes mouths.
Wasalaam
.
Pardesi is snake oil salesman.
Tru picture of Aga khais only can be gleamed from what common AK says.
Visit http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... file=index and spend some time reading thru various posts.
Truth comes out of Babes mouths.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Pardesi, thank you for your responses. I'm kind of busy now and would like to resume this conversation later.
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muhammad khan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Hi Humsafar,
Here are some of the things that “I Think” is different in Nizaris then in Bohras
No one will ever ask you a single penny for donation. If you don’t want to pay any zakat, wajebat, salam, etc. No one will ever know that you are not paying. In all most all of the donations there will be an option where you pay the money in a cover (with out your name on it) and not even a collector knows who is paying what amount. Collectors are instructed not to open and count the cover individually, but they mix all the money before counting. It becomes their duty to keep things in secrete, so there will not be any discrimination in Jamat Khana.
When donations are raised and If you want to pay and show the collector that you are paying, you inform the collector that you want to pay and they come to you with a plan of where the money will be spend. If you are a big donor then you are many times invited to visit the project, so that you can see how the money is getting spent. But it is assumed that once you pay you should pay in good faith and don’t become dictator. As no one is forcing you to pay.
Majority of the people who work in institutions are volunteers and they get changed ever 1 – 3 years. So we hardly see any corrupt people in the institution. But we do see people doing partiality to their relatives. But not in terms of money, as money does not go to a individual person and the panel decides how to spend the money. Since volunteer leader get a chance to lead an institution for just a year of two, most of the people try not to be partial. People are hired only for those works which needs full time commitment otherwise leaders are volunteers. Many times you will see these volunteers paying the most donations as they want the Jamat to grow the most under their leadership.
Here are some of the things that “I Think” is different in Nizaris then in Bohras
No one will ever ask you a single penny for donation. If you don’t want to pay any zakat, wajebat, salam, etc. No one will ever know that you are not paying. In all most all of the donations there will be an option where you pay the money in a cover (with out your name on it) and not even a collector knows who is paying what amount. Collectors are instructed not to open and count the cover individually, but they mix all the money before counting. It becomes their duty to keep things in secrete, so there will not be any discrimination in Jamat Khana.
When donations are raised and If you want to pay and show the collector that you are paying, you inform the collector that you want to pay and they come to you with a plan of where the money will be spend. If you are a big donor then you are many times invited to visit the project, so that you can see how the money is getting spent. But it is assumed that once you pay you should pay in good faith and don’t become dictator. As no one is forcing you to pay.
Majority of the people who work in institutions are volunteers and they get changed ever 1 – 3 years. So we hardly see any corrupt people in the institution. But we do see people doing partiality to their relatives. But not in terms of money, as money does not go to a individual person and the panel decides how to spend the money. Since volunteer leader get a chance to lead an institution for just a year of two, most of the people try not to be partial. People are hired only for those works which needs full time commitment otherwise leaders are volunteers. Many times you will see these volunteers paying the most donations as they want the Jamat to grow the most under their leadership.
-
muhammad khan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Hi Humsafar,
Here are some of the things that “I Think” is different in Nizaris then in Bohras
No one will ever ask you a single penny for donation. If you don’t want to pay any zakat, wajebat, salam, etc. No one will ever know that you are not paying. In all most all of the donations there will be an option where you pay the money in a cover (with out your name on it) and not even a collector knows who is paying what amount. Collectors are instructed not to open and count the cover individually, but they mix all the money before counting. It becomes their duty to keep things in secrete, so there will not be any discrimination in Jamat Khana.
When donations are raised and If you want to pay and show the collector that you are paying, you inform the collector that you want to pay and they come to you with a plan of where the money will be spend. If you are a big donor then you are many times invited to visit the project, so that you can see how the money is getting spent. But it is assumed that once you pay you should pay in good faith and don’t become dictator. As no one is forcing you to pay.
Majority of the people who work in institutions are volunteers and they get changed ever 1 – 3 years. So we hardly see any corrupt people in the institution. But we do see people doing partiality to their relatives. But not in terms of money, as money does not go to a individual person and the panel decides how to spend the money. Since volunteer leader get a chance to lead an institution for just a year of two, most of the people try not to be partial. People are hired only for those works which needs full time commitment otherwise leaders are volunteers. Many times you will see these volunteers paying the most donations as they want the Jamat to grow the most under their leadership.
Here are some of the things that “I Think” is different in Nizaris then in Bohras
No one will ever ask you a single penny for donation. If you don’t want to pay any zakat, wajebat, salam, etc. No one will ever know that you are not paying. In all most all of the donations there will be an option where you pay the money in a cover (with out your name on it) and not even a collector knows who is paying what amount. Collectors are instructed not to open and count the cover individually, but they mix all the money before counting. It becomes their duty to keep things in secrete, so there will not be any discrimination in Jamat Khana.
When donations are raised and If you want to pay and show the collector that you are paying, you inform the collector that you want to pay and they come to you with a plan of where the money will be spend. If you are a big donor then you are many times invited to visit the project, so that you can see how the money is getting spent. But it is assumed that once you pay you should pay in good faith and don’t become dictator. As no one is forcing you to pay.
Majority of the people who work in institutions are volunteers and they get changed ever 1 – 3 years. So we hardly see any corrupt people in the institution. But we do see people doing partiality to their relatives. But not in terms of money, as money does not go to a individual person and the panel decides how to spend the money. Since volunteer leader get a chance to lead an institution for just a year of two, most of the people try not to be partial. People are hired only for those works which needs full time commitment otherwise leaders are volunteers. Many times you will see these volunteers paying the most donations as they want the Jamat to grow the most under their leadership.
-
muhammad khan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Jaman’s are not very appreciated. Though we do have Jaman 3 – 4 times a year. Some Jamat use to have Jaman everday, or 2-3 times a week, but now the Imam wants Jamat to save that money and give to some poor person for starting a business or for their kids education.
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muhammad khan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
We don’t doubt the money we give to institute. Because each and every Ismaili is the beneficiary of one or more institutions of Aga Khan. We give voluntarily because we are paying back to the community our debts. And when we get involved in the institution we know where the money is going. Here are some of the institutions which we get benefited from. These institutions are the part of Jamat Khana. All jamat khana’s have these institutions .
Education is given a lot of importance.
With No Child Left Behind policy, it is the duty of Jamati leaders to make sure ever child gets the topnotch education. The success rate of this is very high. Even the Bachelors who are under 30 are now considered “Drop Outs”. They are encouraged to take further education. Institute pays for collage donation and college fees for the needy. Instituion also shares the education expense with the lower middle class family. If the lower middle class families don’t want their kids to go to school because of economical constraints then institution gives partial loan and partial scholarship so that the kid is zero burden on the family. Other non-lower middle class families get loan for their studies. These are no interest loans.
Health –
Every one are appreciated to take health insurance. Since the insurance is take in group, one gets very big discount as a part of Jamati group insurance.
Institution pays for the insurance of the Jamat who are bellow poverty line. For lower middle class, institution shares insurance expenses.
In many countries, institution ties up with big hospitals and get discount cards, which are distributed free of cost to jamat or for min. cost. In my city they charge Rs 5 per card (equal to 12.5 cents per card). This way Jamat can get discount in the hospital for the services that are not covered in insurance.
Most of the towns where ismaili live have ismaili hospital or ismaili health center which is run by jamati funds
Economic -
If some one is over 30 and do not have a job, there are IGPs (Income Generation Programs) where they are taught about new opportunities and businesses. They are also given interest free loans to start their business. To qualify for this they need to be bellow poverty line.
For middle class people, the biggest hit of last decade was Second earner program. The aim of this program is/was to generate 2nd earner in the family. This helps family to prosper a lot. Gradually these families strengthen economically.
Senior Citizens:
This group enjoys the most benefits from all. They get free health check ups, insurances, picnic, different entertainment programs, library, English and computer classes, religious classes, etc.
Pregnancy and Birth – Takes care of pregnant mothers and new born child in terms of their education, health, nutrition, and vaccine shots. Imam is very strict with this. Utmost measures are taken so that no child is infected with polio and other disease which can be saved by vaccines.
School Grading – Institute takes surveys of the schools and grade them A, B, C and D. Parents are encouraged (monetarily and emotionally) to move their children from lower grade to higher grade schools.
Holiday Learning - for kids where they take personality development classes
Youth Institute – anti-social habit awareness, Exercise, fitness, personality development, career counseling, socializing, regional, national and international level games.
Welfare Institute – Counseling and helping people to get out of anti-social habits like drinking and gambling.
Associations – forming business unions. People doing same business are encouraged to buy the product together in bulk, MBA’s from top universities are hired to guide these associations to stand in front of big businesses like Wal-Mart. Ex - Nizari association of Atlanta GA has more than 1100 gas stations. They get the best Pepsi and Coke deals in the world.
Engineers, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, footwear, clothing, bakery, motels, gas stations, groceries, employees seeking jobs, furniture, etc have their own associations.
Burial Committee – take care of all ismaili’s regardless of them being rich or poor, paying zakat or not paying zakat.
Women’s Association – Take care of uplifting women and helps woman in need.
Housing Board – Helps first time home buyers in buying homes. Gives interest free mortgage for lower middle class and poor people, runs Rent to Own Schisms, helps every Ismaili to own a house by creating societies.
Emergency Board – makes relations with local, regional and national politicians, so that at the time of crisis, they can help. I have great respect for this board. When Taliban attacked our Ismaili town in Afghanistan. They killed and raped many Ismailis. Forced us to follow their form of Islam. Any one who disagree to follow their way, they use to beat them to death. They destroyed the Jamat Khanas. This board with the help of Indian, Pakistani and us diplomats helped us to move to India and Pakistan. They helped not only ismailies but other shia’s and moderate sunnis to get out of Afghanistan.
Crisis Board – Helps family under sudden crisis.
Pre-marital and post marital counseling and help
Arbitration board
Scouts, Guides, rangers, ever ready group, band group, etc.
Sine now Ismailis are becoming self –sufficient imam wants Ismailis to help other non-Ismailis. Every institution and committee is encouraged to help non-Ismailis. No non-ismailis are asked to get converted. This is not done to convert anyone.
This is the social aspect. Religious aspect is bigger than this, which I may cover latter.
Education is given a lot of importance.
With No Child Left Behind policy, it is the duty of Jamati leaders to make sure ever child gets the topnotch education. The success rate of this is very high. Even the Bachelors who are under 30 are now considered “Drop Outs”. They are encouraged to take further education. Institute pays for collage donation and college fees for the needy. Instituion also shares the education expense with the lower middle class family. If the lower middle class families don’t want their kids to go to school because of economical constraints then institution gives partial loan and partial scholarship so that the kid is zero burden on the family. Other non-lower middle class families get loan for their studies. These are no interest loans.
Health –
Every one are appreciated to take health insurance. Since the insurance is take in group, one gets very big discount as a part of Jamati group insurance.
Institution pays for the insurance of the Jamat who are bellow poverty line. For lower middle class, institution shares insurance expenses.
In many countries, institution ties up with big hospitals and get discount cards, which are distributed free of cost to jamat or for min. cost. In my city they charge Rs 5 per card (equal to 12.5 cents per card). This way Jamat can get discount in the hospital for the services that are not covered in insurance.
Most of the towns where ismaili live have ismaili hospital or ismaili health center which is run by jamati funds
Economic -
If some one is over 30 and do not have a job, there are IGPs (Income Generation Programs) where they are taught about new opportunities and businesses. They are also given interest free loans to start their business. To qualify for this they need to be bellow poverty line.
For middle class people, the biggest hit of last decade was Second earner program. The aim of this program is/was to generate 2nd earner in the family. This helps family to prosper a lot. Gradually these families strengthen economically.
Senior Citizens:
This group enjoys the most benefits from all. They get free health check ups, insurances, picnic, different entertainment programs, library, English and computer classes, religious classes, etc.
Pregnancy and Birth – Takes care of pregnant mothers and new born child in terms of their education, health, nutrition, and vaccine shots. Imam is very strict with this. Utmost measures are taken so that no child is infected with polio and other disease which can be saved by vaccines.
School Grading – Institute takes surveys of the schools and grade them A, B, C and D. Parents are encouraged (monetarily and emotionally) to move their children from lower grade to higher grade schools.
Holiday Learning - for kids where they take personality development classes
Youth Institute – anti-social habit awareness, Exercise, fitness, personality development, career counseling, socializing, regional, national and international level games.
Welfare Institute – Counseling and helping people to get out of anti-social habits like drinking and gambling.
Associations – forming business unions. People doing same business are encouraged to buy the product together in bulk, MBA’s from top universities are hired to guide these associations to stand in front of big businesses like Wal-Mart. Ex - Nizari association of Atlanta GA has more than 1100 gas stations. They get the best Pepsi and Coke deals in the world.
Engineers, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, footwear, clothing, bakery, motels, gas stations, groceries, employees seeking jobs, furniture, etc have their own associations.
Burial Committee – take care of all ismaili’s regardless of them being rich or poor, paying zakat or not paying zakat.
Women’s Association – Take care of uplifting women and helps woman in need.
Housing Board – Helps first time home buyers in buying homes. Gives interest free mortgage for lower middle class and poor people, runs Rent to Own Schisms, helps every Ismaili to own a house by creating societies.
Emergency Board – makes relations with local, regional and national politicians, so that at the time of crisis, they can help. I have great respect for this board. When Taliban attacked our Ismaili town in Afghanistan. They killed and raped many Ismailis. Forced us to follow their form of Islam. Any one who disagree to follow their way, they use to beat them to death. They destroyed the Jamat Khanas. This board with the help of Indian, Pakistani and us diplomats helped us to move to India and Pakistan. They helped not only ismailies but other shia’s and moderate sunnis to get out of Afghanistan.
Crisis Board – Helps family under sudden crisis.
Pre-marital and post marital counseling and help
Arbitration board
Scouts, Guides, rangers, ever ready group, band group, etc.
Sine now Ismailis are becoming self –sufficient imam wants Ismailis to help other non-Ismailis. Every institution and committee is encouraged to help non-Ismailis. No non-ismailis are asked to get converted. This is not done to convert anyone.
This is the social aspect. Religious aspect is bigger than this, which I may cover latter.
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jawanmardan
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
The Agha khan has set up the Agha Khan development network for the welfare of not just his own community but also as in Cairo for example to help Sunni Muslims, or Christians in Uganda.Originally posted by Humsafar:
There can be no comparison between the Sayedna and the Aga Khan in terms of taking care of the community. The latter has done a lot for the community and there's no question about it. Besides Ismailis generally are educated, progressive people. Or so it would seem. Blind devotion to the leader is rife in both communities. The imam, the bayah and his farman are taken unquestionably. There seems to as much cult about the Aga Khan as there is about the Sayedna. Wherever the imam goes Ismailis follow him in droves much like Bohra devotees following their Dai around the world.
In terms of the management of the community the general public has little idea. It can't be that things are so hunky-dory that people are completely satisfied. Or is dissent crushed like the way it is done by the Kothar?
By the way, do they have a name for their centralised administration like we have for the Kothar. How are funds collected, how much, and is there any accountability on how they are spent? What if you don't pay? What happens if you disobey the farman? What about the murids, how are they trained, appointed, what is their role/authority. I ask these questions because I'd really like to know, and I'm curious to know whether Ismailis have any problem with the system and the way it is managed and run.
Why don't we see any dissenting, questioning Islmailis on this board, I wonder. All I see Islmailis coming to here to defend their faith against "wahabis". Where are reformist Ismailis?
PS: I'm not questioning the faith and ideology of the Islmaili tariqa. I'm just concerned with the social setup, social power structure, the process of socialisation (brainwashing), tolerance of dissent and non-conformism, accountability and transparency etc. These are the concerns we Bohras are struggling with in our community. Do Ismailis have similar concerns?
The community is governed by a World Constitution.
Each State, has a National, regional and Local council, council members meet and fill various portfolio's, including legal Aid, Womens Issues, Religious education, Health, Education, Financial Aid, Religious Law.
Council members are chosen from amongst the congregation and appointed for a fixed term 3-5 years, based on their abilities,
we do not have an organized clergy or priests, they are not payed for their service and have full time careers.
Ismailis may give directly to the Imam in which case the money is for his personal use, or to his institutions, 12.5% is recommended but their is no compultion, or checks done...if you do not give its a personal choice with not penalty.
If that Farmen is about health like giving up smoking its your personal choice to follow or not follow, your health. If the Farman regards a spiritual matter then one must follow it, the whole point of ismailism is to seek the guidance of the Imam of the age.
The AKDN is well acknowledged as a leader in health, education, financial development as well as arts and cultural preservation, MA development studies in prestigious educational institutions such as the London School of Economics and Political studies have used the AKDN as an example NGO. the AKDN is transparent and publishes annual reports of income and expenditure...
the Imam has a personal fortune, which he may choose to invest in the setting up of a new institution or he may choose to use for his personal life, that is like every private citizen.
hope this helps...
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
i do not doubt for an instant that whatever these ismaili brothers have written is not true. i have many ismaili friends and know from them personally how their community works, as i have been sometimes involved in donations or help in organising. what i have seen is that they will put their maximum effort in helping their own people first, when it comes to arrangements, eg. transport, food, supplies etc. they will first seek an ismaili who can supply them, only then will they go for outsiders.
i wish the syedna would learn from how the ismailis operate. in canada, ismailis own the majority of car rentals and motels in the metro areas. what the agakhan does for his community and humanity at large is undisputed. whereas what the syedna does is only to give lip service and fool not only his community but the world at large. he and his family are ruthless conmen who care 2 hoots for their own community. even if the agakhan takes big sums from his people (without force) he gives back to the world in an equally magnanimous way.
so all the talk about the syedna being a true muslim and following the 5 or 7 pillars of islam is futile when he only takes and takes and gives a thenga, while whether the ismailis follow islam as the orthodox want or not, atleast they are doing concrete deeds of nobility which islam encourages.
so now u be the judge, one follows islam to the letter theoretically but then lives off the loot from his community, while the other does not exactly conform to the strictly held beliefs of the religion by the majority, yet carry out good deeds and put them into action on a grand scale.
i wish the syedna would learn from how the ismailis operate. in canada, ismailis own the majority of car rentals and motels in the metro areas. what the agakhan does for his community and humanity at large is undisputed. whereas what the syedna does is only to give lip service and fool not only his community but the world at large. he and his family are ruthless conmen who care 2 hoots for their own community. even if the agakhan takes big sums from his people (without force) he gives back to the world in an equally magnanimous way.
so all the talk about the syedna being a true muslim and following the 5 or 7 pillars of islam is futile when he only takes and takes and gives a thenga, while whether the ismailis follow islam as the orthodox want or not, atleast they are doing concrete deeds of nobility which islam encourages.
so now u be the judge, one follows islam to the letter theoretically but then lives off the loot from his community, while the other does not exactly conform to the strictly held beliefs of the religion by the majority, yet carry out good deeds and put them into action on a grand scale.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Thank you brother Al Zulfiqar. This is what Islam is all about, like you just showed, tolerance and understanding of others and if we need to criticize someone then look no further than ourselves.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Bro. pardesi, i have always held the agakhanis and agakhan in respect because of what they do for their own people, vis-a-vis our syedna and his leach family.
i have personally seen the far-sightedness of the aga khan's office which advises ordinary ismailies where they should invest or not, where they should live and when they should leave to save themselves and their businesses, re-locating and re-settling them elsewhere, such that they bounce back with even greater vigor!
that in my opinion is the greatest single act of humanity and wisdom that surpasses any dollar value. whatever the tenets of yr deen, i see an overwhelming influence of reasonableness, practical wisdom and tolerance, and the ability to adapt and blend in of the ismailies, wherever they live. that is why, once again i state regrettably, that i do not see any sense in the approach that turbo has adopted, viz, fighting ignorance or criticism from others with bad language and more hatred in return.
i see that you take a more measured approach and are more restrained in yr speech. anyways u know best what u are doing. i would suggest that let your deeds speak louder than your words.
i have personally seen the far-sightedness of the aga khan's office which advises ordinary ismailies where they should invest or not, where they should live and when they should leave to save themselves and their businesses, re-locating and re-settling them elsewhere, such that they bounce back with even greater vigor!
that in my opinion is the greatest single act of humanity and wisdom that surpasses any dollar value. whatever the tenets of yr deen, i see an overwhelming influence of reasonableness, practical wisdom and tolerance, and the ability to adapt and blend in of the ismailies, wherever they live. that is why, once again i state regrettably, that i do not see any sense in the approach that turbo has adopted, viz, fighting ignorance or criticism from others with bad language and more hatred in return.
i see that you take a more measured approach and are more restrained in yr speech. anyways u know best what u are doing. i would suggest that let your deeds speak louder than your words.
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Thanks Zulfikar for the nice words.
As on this form Humasar is asking about the things in which Ismailis are struggling or failing to achieve. I will highlight some of them here.
While Ismailis are portrayed as very educated and rich people, this is not always true. Especially in 3rd world countries.
Pakistan - 100’s of thousands of Ismailis in northern Pakistan though educated are very poor. They have no opportunity to grow. Even with 99% literacy rate, they are having hard time to survive.
India – Gujarat has a big population of poor Ismailis. Many of them are struggling to meet their basic needs.
Tajikistan – Gorno Badakhshan Ismailis are highly educated, but still struggling to meet their basic needs. Many of them are struggling to make 10 dollar a day.
Afghanistan – Trying to survive in war torn zone. Majority makes less than a dollar a day.
Africa – Good opportunity, people are make money, but no education, no hospital…..
And many more.
In Tajikistan, Aga khan recently started a university dedicated for mountain people. The university is carrying intense research in collaboration with UK’s top universities to find ways for the mountain people to grow economically to meeting their bassic needs.
In India, Pakistan, and east African countires, Aga khan started/starting aga khan acadey and university in collaboration with top universities in USA and Canada. They will try to provide education for the chirldrens of those who want to try their luck with the opportunities in 3rd world.
In Afghanistan – Aga khan started vocations schools to help people learn skills.
He is also developed/ing institutions which will help people in 3rd world to get in connections with knowledge society of the west, this way they can prepare themselves for the global village.
Now here is the issue. Can the issues of 3rd world be solved with the plan developed in Harvard University? Can the people living in US and Canada understand the issues of someone living in the village of Gujarat? Even if people are ready to help, is that person living in Gujarat will be able to understand the plan?
Theoretically it is possible, but practically this I very tough.
Do Ismailis have enough budget to do this? With Aga khan emphasizing more and more to help non-Ismaili neighbors, a good portion of institution budget is going to help non-Ismailis.
So now the money is divided into 4 different segments
1. Solving the problem in the local jamat where the funds is being rasied
2. Help their non-ismaili neighbors
3. helping Ismailis of the 3rd world
4. Helping people of the 3rd world where Ismailis live.
One thing I can say for sure is that there are many Ismailis are working very hard to help others get out of poverty.
As on this form Humasar is asking about the things in which Ismailis are struggling or failing to achieve. I will highlight some of them here.
While Ismailis are portrayed as very educated and rich people, this is not always true. Especially in 3rd world countries.
Pakistan - 100’s of thousands of Ismailis in northern Pakistan though educated are very poor. They have no opportunity to grow. Even with 99% literacy rate, they are having hard time to survive.
India – Gujarat has a big population of poor Ismailis. Many of them are struggling to meet their basic needs.
Tajikistan – Gorno Badakhshan Ismailis are highly educated, but still struggling to meet their basic needs. Many of them are struggling to make 10 dollar a day.
Afghanistan – Trying to survive in war torn zone. Majority makes less than a dollar a day.
Africa – Good opportunity, people are make money, but no education, no hospital…..
And many more.
In Tajikistan, Aga khan recently started a university dedicated for mountain people. The university is carrying intense research in collaboration with UK’s top universities to find ways for the mountain people to grow economically to meeting their bassic needs.
In India, Pakistan, and east African countires, Aga khan started/starting aga khan acadey and university in collaboration with top universities in USA and Canada. They will try to provide education for the chirldrens of those who want to try their luck with the opportunities in 3rd world.
In Afghanistan – Aga khan started vocations schools to help people learn skills.
He is also developed/ing institutions which will help people in 3rd world to get in connections with knowledge society of the west, this way they can prepare themselves for the global village.
Now here is the issue. Can the issues of 3rd world be solved with the plan developed in Harvard University? Can the people living in US and Canada understand the issues of someone living in the village of Gujarat? Even if people are ready to help, is that person living in Gujarat will be able to understand the plan?
Theoretically it is possible, but practically this I very tough.
Do Ismailis have enough budget to do this? With Aga khan emphasizing more and more to help non-Ismaili neighbors, a good portion of institution budget is going to help non-Ismailis.
So now the money is divided into 4 different segments
1. Solving the problem in the local jamat where the funds is being rasied
2. Help their non-ismaili neighbors
3. helping Ismailis of the 3rd world
4. Helping people of the 3rd world where Ismailis live.
One thing I can say for sure is that there are many Ismailis are working very hard to help others get out of poverty.
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muhammad khan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
Bro Salim, your tone does not sound good. Islam teaches to help others. If allah has blessed us with wealth, the best way to use it is to help others in growing. Islam doesn’t believe in gaining wealth for the purpose of accumulation. If you have gained wealth beyond your needs be generous with it.With Aga khan emphasizing more and more to help non-Ismaili neighbors
No country can grow, with only one segment of it growing. Look at the consequences in US, when the blacks were left behind. The same thing is happening in Gujarat. Muslims are left behind. This will not make Gujarat a peaceful state.
Remember Islamic civilization, countries prospered because nobody was neglected.
"By no means shall you attain righteousness unless you give freely from that which you love. And whatever you give, Allah knows it well" (Qur'an 3:92).
Here Allah does not say - "Just give you Muslims".
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muhammad khan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:01 am
Re: Where are reformist Ismailis?
This is defiantly an issue. In the path of progress, along with the victories there will be many failures. One should keep on learning from the failures and mistakes. And try to improve every time.Can the issues of 3rd world be solved with the plan developed in Harvard University? Can the people living in US and Canada understand the issues of someone living in the village of Gujarat?
Today Ismailis have more than 99% of literacy rate in Northern Pakistan where the literacy rate in 1980’s was less than 40%. This is defiantly an improvement. More than 80% youngsters are attaining Masters in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. This is more than achievement. This is great. Though they don’t have any opportunities now, but in forthcoming years they are ready to grab the opportunity. And I am confident that the new wave of globalization that India received will reach to Pakistan and central Asian countries soon. Dear bro salim – The success is because of the initiatives taken by the plans made in Harvard.
North America and Europe is leading the knowledge societies, and we should not feel ashamed in learning from them. There was a time when we Muslims use to be the driving forces in the knowledge societies, they learnt from us. We should not be ashamed of learning from them what our forefather taught them.