Haqiqi Qibla?

[anajmi]

Here is the irony, most muslims don't even know that such an ayah exists in the quran (and most who beat their wives - and muslims are not an exception, don't need the quran to justify their actions. In fact muslims are amongst the minority, I don't know of a single muslim who beats his wife.). It is the enemies of Islam that bring out these ayahs to depict the muslims as 7th century cavemen. In America, every police vehicle has a label "There is no excuse for Domestic Violence", you think they are referring to muslims?

[porus]

Quite a good attempt to interpret 4:34 avoiding adribu to mean beat:

http://www.flwi.ugent.be/cie/bogaert/bogaert4.htm

[jawanmardan]

Humsafar,

Salaam brother, and thank you for a very thought provoking post.

The notion that the Qu’ran as interpreted by the majority of scholars should not only allow, but also endorse domestic violence against women ought to be troubling to all Muslims, regardless of whether the non-Muslim world views us as civilised or not, and regardless of whether we all share the same interpretation of Islam or not.

So while agree with you that the search for One absolutist interpretation of Islam is entirely futile and that a man with the mindset of a 7th century caveman will justify domestic violence by holding to orthodox ulemas view, while another more evolved consciousness will realise that such behaviour goes against the most basic norms of his moral consciousness and rightly feel embarrassed.

I believe with due note of my pretension that a highly evolved conscious Muslim owes a duty of care to his 7th century counterpart, who may have never had the opportunity to consider a different view. I believe the majority of Muslims if given the choice would reject immoral interpretations of the Qu’ran, and search for an answer that they can rationalise intellectually and with their own moral, and spiritual conscious as individuals.

Incidentally I think you have fallen into the trap set by some members of this board of assuming that the primary purpose of spiritual exegesis are to explain away embarrassing and out dated aspects of Islam, this is not so; forms of exegesis may only occasionally involve the realignment of exoteric norms, but only in so far as they facilitate the explorations of the esoteric, and only within the confines of changing circumstances which may hamper the efforts materially or spiritually of anyone undertaking a spiritual journey. As such Talim and Batin are primarily concerned with achieving an altered state of consciousness awareness which leads to a direct mystical insight into divine natures. They represent a deep intellectual, and emotional yearning for the spiritual, and their historical origins have greater integrity then you give them credit for.

[anajmi]

The notion that the Qu’ran as interpreted by the majority of scholars should not only allow, but also endorse domestic violence against women ought to be troubling to all Muslims

Unfortunately, I haven't seen an alternative explanation either from the Ismaili Imams or the Bohra Dais. If you have, kindly post the correct interpretation/translation of the ayah 4:34. Thanks.

[turbocanuck]

The Ismaili community has never faced the question of 4:34, because they DONT ABUSE THEIR WIVES in the name of religion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58

If an Ismaili husband abuses his spouse, which all communities do i'm sure, then they are just that CRIMINALS. They dont seek justification from their Imam, as they have been brought up to believe violence has no place in Islam.
now i challenge,Anjali or Anajma or whoevers face is called, show me where there HAS been justification of 4:34 from our Imam in the name of Islam.
What a loser you are Anjali.

Turbonut

[anajmi]

I think my point about Ismailis and their "bolta quran" has been made one more time.

I won't be wasting any more time trying to figure out the Ismaili interpretation of the quran. At least, till the next batch of Ismailis comes around talking about the wahhabi misinterpretation of the quran.

[Muslim First]

.

The Ismaili community has never faced the question of 4:34, because they DONT ABUSE THEIR WIVES in the name of religion

Yes and every time so called Muslim whoe even does not know or understand meaning of Surah Fatiha but beats his wife says before beation her. I am beating you bacause 4:34.

For non Muslim it is domestic abuse for Muslim it Penal code 4:34!!!!

With devients knoking Islam who needs enemy?
.

[salim]

Dear Muslim First,

I saw the link you posted about Edhi foundation. I respect this foundation a lot. If you see the good work of Edhi Foundation, you will realize that there is a lot of similarity between Aga khan foundation and Edhi Foundation.

Abdul Sitar Edhi is way more Ismaili then a Wahabi. Abdul Sitar Edhi is a very good Muslim. Do not count him in your Wahabi sect. Show me one sentence on his website which proves your point of him being wahabi. Show one sentence on his website where he is asking people to kill, rape, burn, destroy in the name of Allah. Rather it looks like he is strongly against of Wahabism. He is promoting honesty, peace, love, pluralism, diversity,

At the end let me quote Edhi -

“Mosques are useless if they are locked outside of prayer times and do not have a wider social role.”

[muhammad khan]

Many Wahabies have tried to kill this man. Let me Quote National Geographic Magazine.
-----------------------------------------------
Despite his selfless deeds, Edhi is often attacked as "un-Islamic" by Pakistan's hard-line mullahs, who cite his policy on infidels. He has none. Edhi never asks whether an abandoned child, a psychiatric patient, a dead person, or a battered woman is Sunni or Shiite, Hindu or Christian—or, for that matter, Punjabi or Sindhi, Baluchi or Pashtun, Mohajir or Kashmiri. "I'm a Muslim," says Edhi, "but my true religion is human rights."
-----------------------------------------------

[Muslim First]

.
Dear Salim

I am not speaking for Wahabi, Wahabi is label pinned by others to me because I believe that Islam is to be practiced as close to prophet's way.

If you want call to me Wahabi then that is your choice.

I pointed Edhi foundation because deviants are tooting charity by 'Bolta Quran'. My point is there are other Muslims who give silently and/or publicly billions and do not use it to show their Muslimness. AgaKhani's are good charitable people and that does not make them Muslim. They are deviants as far as I am concerned.
Have a good day

Have a good day
.

[muhammad khan]

Some more

--------------------------
Such rhetoric only emboldens the Islamists, whose influence is growing across Pakistan. Edhi gets half a dozen death threats a week, ranging from crank calls to serious warnings that made him temporarily flee the country. Religious militants harass his offices—a campaign orchestrated, Edhi believes, by Pakistan's Islamist political parties, which compete with him for financial support. A few years ago, a new Edhi Foundation hospital, which cost three million dollars to build, was taken over by students from a radical madrassa north of Karachi. Intimidated by the mullahs, the police refused to act on Edhi's complaint, and his hospital is now a dormitory, with student laundry—black turbans favored by the Taliban—flapping from the windows, like flags over conquered territory.
-------------------------------------------

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.

The Ismaili community has never faced the question of 4:34, because they DONT ABUSE THEIR WIVES in the name of religion

Yes and every time so called Muslim whoe even does not know or understand meaning of Surah Fatiha but beats his wife says before beation her. I am beating you bacause 4:34.

For non Muslim it is domestic abuse for Muslim it Penal code 4:34!!!!

With devients knoking Islam who needs enemy?
.

HUH???

Brother MF, you are as confused as a Deer in headlights. Wow!! you're losing it Buddy. First instead of defending your Wahabbi spin, you quote a website that is actually a Christian fundamentalist site which tore apart your original argument, now this........
Go and learn more from the Wahabbi thugs that have so brainwashed you. BTW, what was the point of invoking EDHI? we all know and admire of their Philantropic beliefs, which are so similar to The AKDN network in the Health sector. Find something new to work on..

"Islam for Peace"

Turbonut

[muhammad khan]

And Here is the Source.

National Geographic magazine.
Wahabies against Humanity

Wahabi Vs True Islam

[Muslim First]

“Mosques are useless if they are locked outside of prayer times and do not have a wider social role.”

I agree with it and that is why we are building Islamic Cultural Centers in my adopeted homeland. Jamat Khanas are closed to non Ismailies.

Also see this progressice cultural center in Suburban Boston. Look into 'about us' then Building Expansion.

One is conservative other is liberal.

Both work for me so long as they do not practice Devient version.

When Jamat Khanas will be open to Public?
.

[muhammad khan]

Inshallah soon Jamat Khanas will be open to public. The trend has started in Canada. According to me one of the reason to keep Jamat Khana closed for outsiders are many close minded hardliners, who believe that only their form of Islam is the one and the only way to god and others who follow the way which is not similar to their own should be harassed.

[baburao]

MF (you really did choose a moniker that when abbreviated denotes what you really are and what the rest would prefer to call you)

You continually refer to anyone who does not share your totalitarian views as deviants - it was people of your ilk who got Ahamdiyyas classed as non-Muslims in Pakistan. The Islam that the Prophet lived, taught and no doubt hoped would survive was an inclusive, tolerant and perfectly natural faith. It is people like you and Ana Bibi who are deviants. Why are you so concerned about what the other sects of Islam practice - is there a nagging doubt in your mind that maybe theirs is the correct interpretation? Do you feel so much anger and animosity towards Christians - they do not share your beliefs.

And just to correct another misconception of yours - Jamat Khannas are not mosques; they are community halls where prayers are also recited - but I guess such subtleties are wasted on anyone who believes that Surah Fatiha is difficult to understand

[baburao]

Muhammad Khan,

Very interesting link on Edhi.

Is it not sad to read

"I'm a Muslim," says Edhi, "but my true religion is human rights."

Is Islam against human rights - do we have to apologise for being Muslim? Given the excesses of the Mullahs, maybe we do.

[Muslim First]

.
Baburao
Salaam

I have not abused you or your religion. baburao,

.I shouldn't be wasting my time with you. Thanks.
.

[Sajid Zafar]

You are wasting every ones time. Three fingures points you before you point someone else.

[anajmi]

sajid,

The same thing applies to you too, unless you have only one finger on your hands.

[baburao]

MF - you have plenty of time. Giving any of that to enlighten us is clearly of no use - anamji bears witness to that as the Prophet said so. Please just humour us with your quotes from the collection of "novels" written decades after the death of the Prophet and apparently recording verbatim the conversations between the Prophet and his companions.

[salim]

Hi, this is for Anajami.

I took 4 days off from my school and went back to home. While having dinner I had an opportunity to discus this ayah with my parents.

". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (4:34)

And I asked my mom and dad what is the Ismaili interpretation of the above ayah. And my dad said:

“He doesn’t know any official Ismaili interpretation of the above ayah.”

But he said it is very important to understand the context, before we try to understand the word meaning of this ayah. This Ayah came down in a context when beating women was norm in Arab society. Women had very less rights. In those days when men use to go out for business for months, some women use to indulge in extramarital activities. When Men use to find out their Ill conduct, they use to beat the hell out of women and give them divorcee. This act of beating the hell out of women and giving them divorce was making the problem worse. With this act extra marital affairs started increasing because of the increase in single mother families. Plus the future of children was also in danger.

Allah and prophet gave women more rights. In the above ayah Allah asks Muslims not to beat women very hard (Because this might end their marriage). Rather Allah asks men to admonish them first if they do ill conduct. Then if she redo it, refuse to share her bed, and if still she does again, beat them lightly.

Allah wants to reconcile the marriage and save people from divorce. Because the result of divorce is worse then that of above act. Allah asks Muslims to give their wife a couple of chance to improve herself.

Also my dad told me that it is very important to read complete ayah and don’t pick up lines from in between. He told me the rest of ayah. And here is the rest of the ayah.

….But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

In Islam women is respected way more than in the western world. If a woman cheats a man in western world, that instance is more than enough for that man to get a divorce. But Islam wants the man to give women one more chance.

When I heard this, the word that came out from my mouth was ‘Mashallah”

Also my dad told me that the word used in the ayah for beating does not translate correctly to beating, actually is it some thing less than beating. English does not have the right word for that, so Yousuf Ali used couple of words to describe it “beating lightly”

[anajmi]

salim,

I have understood that ayah and the context behind it very well. For some reason Ismailis believe that I haven't and that they have understood it better because of their Hazar Imam, so I ask for the Hazar Imam's interpretation of that ayah and guess what, as you father corroborated, none is available.

Whatever little knowledge the Ismailis have of the quran is not because their Hazar Imam but it is because of the works of Sunni scholars and historians. They like to attribute it to the Hazar Imam, simply to maintain the illusion of being under the guidance of this Imam who is going to lead them to salvation. The other option is far more difficult for them to comprehend and follow.

[ponga bhori]

Anajmi,

Well said.
And had the father have an official explaination,
we would have a slinging match all over again.
But is this explaination correct?
Is the wife/husband to be given changes on adultery?

[anajmi]

And had the father have an official explaination,

That is like saying if pigs had wings they would fly and if ponga bhoris had more...... I'd rather not get into a slinging match with you, cause you are so smart!!

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by ponga bhori:
Anajmi,

Well said.
And had the father have an official explaination,
we would have a slinging match all over again.
But is this explaination correct?
Is the wife/husband to be given changes on adultery?

What a load of crap!! This Anajma likes a bit of attention every now and then. Interpretation of 4:34 has never been mentioned by OUR Hazer Imam, because......there has never been an Ismaili incident of wife abuse based on RELIGION or justification thereof!! now get that Anjali, once and for all. But you are so thick, you will go on and on......
BTW, a second chance to the wife for adultery?? this is turning into a comedy. Go ask the Women who have been stoned to death because there werent 4 witnesses to her rape!! ALL based on the Holy Quran,
what do you expect.....
Wahabbi Dummy after Wahabbi Dummy.

[anajmi]

Interpretation of 4:34 has never been mentioned by OUR Hazer Imam, because......

turbonut,

Bring the interpretation of any ayah of the quran (there are more than 6000 of them) according to the Hazar Imam. I repeat, ANY AYAH, not just 4:34!! If you can't, then your Hazar Imam is no better than a dummy. Actually, a dummy can't do charity cause he can't separate a fool from his money, so I guess he is better than a dummy.

[jawanmardan]

The very idea that one should debate whether its acceptable to beat a woman is absurd, and possibly insulting to any woman/children who suffer(ed) the effects of domestic violence.

The very idea you discuss it with someone ill in the head enough to condone domestic violence is worse.

Are you expecting the penny to drop, the light bulb to come on…for that “ah ha!” “eureka” moment of civilised understanding?

‘yes these things are all rather barbaric! You were right all along, I shall no longer beat my wife, perish the thought! I only can’t understand why I didn’t think of it myself before…how odd’

I mean really, is that what you people are expecting?

[turbocanuck]

Anajma, what you've taken a respite from thumping your disobedient wife in the name of the Holy quran? 4:34.?
You are nothing but an imbecile who has had issues since childhood, what with your abusive dad(s) who knows and who cares.........
anyway, since your petty mind likes to get some validation at times....here you go.

TOLERANCE
O humankind! We created you from a single [pair] of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you Sura( 49: 13.)

CHARITY
"Spend (in charity) out of the sustenance that We have bestowed on you before that time when death will come to someone, and he shall say: "O my Lord! If only you would grant me reprieve for a little while, then I would give in charity, and be among the righteous." – (Quran, 63:10)

We are proud to see our Imam in his glory every day, anywhere in the world. we dont hide. his splendour is inexplicable. He does not thump his Quran on the pulpit as your Holy thugs, or you very own Wahabbi master does. He does it by example. He does not need to read and shout his interpretation of the Quran it is shown to the world through his Tolerance and pluralism towards others on this earth.
So there Anjali.........read and be"green" with jealousy and envy. because you cant be apart of this glory.
So who is a Dummy here? You and your Wahabbi and Intolerant Sunni thugs that you call your sahabas. Why dont you resume beating your wife as it is quite allowed in "your" religion.
Wow!! for someone to be as DUMB as you are, your Sire must have been a Dumbf#@k too as the saying goes, a Dummy begets a Dummy!!

[muhammad khan]

Salim's interpretation sounds like the interpretation of many Ismailies. Salim’s father was being generous and open minded when he said he don’t know the official interpretation of Ismailism. He doesn’t want to force his interpretation on entire community and he wants to give the community their right which Allah has given them to interpret the Quran according to them.