Syedna in Mumbasa

[Humsafar]

History of Karbala has not changed why do you think there should be a new script If you have attended any event what fanfare do you see ? Don’t the Mumin do matam and weep. Why do you think it is wrong to buy a few merchandise or have some soft drinks or snacks.

You're right, script will not change and nobody is demanding that it does. The issue is the use of this script. As I said in my earlier post, is Sayedna drawing lessons from this script for this followers? Is he telling them the meaning and purpose of Karbala and making it relevant to their lives? No. Just regurgitating the script - like everybody else - is a waste of time and a waste of such powerful and emotional historical event.

Nobody is objecting to buying and merchandise and soft drinks. Why do you reduce every argument to such triviality? I was referring more to the general atmosphere of "celebration", the shopping, eating and sight seeing sprees - the unstated objectives - that attract huge crowds to such events. Colombo, Dubai and now Mombasa are cases in point.

Well what is your purpose of continued attack on Sayedna if it is not to take away his authority and run it the way you think it should be run.

Why has the sane world continually attacked W. Bush in the last eight years? Is it because they wanted to take his authority or his position? No. Leaders and public figures are open to public scrutiny and will face criticism and attacks for their wrong policies and actions. Reformists criticise Sayenda for the way he and his kothar have used religion to subjugate and exploit the community. We want reforms in the community and have no interest in taking over the power or authority of the Dai. Now say after me, reformists want reforms not the authority of the Dai.

So you want to retain the position but appoint someone you want…how can that be fair that you as a minority want to impose your person as a leader of Bohras and deny the current satisfaction majority have with Burhanudinn Saheb.

No we do not want to appoint anyone as Dai. We have no atuthority to do so. Only a Dai has the authority to appoint his successor. All we want is that the Dai look into the grievances of his "farzandoN". We may be a minority but that is no reason to ignore our grievances. All change in history has been initiated and brought about minorities. Even Islam when it started was a minority. The "majority satisfaction" you talk about is nothing but manufactured. I've explained earlier the reasons why people continue stay within the community despite all the problems. Their choice is born of expediency and convenience. Don't call it "satisfaction". They just grin and bear it. This reminds me of Ghalib's shair:
unke dekhe jo aa jaati hai mun pai raunak
woh samjhte hai ke bimaar ka haal achha hai

You are exaggerating, the issues are there but not as widespread as you state..not every step not every day. And let us be honest we have many amongst us who are culturally and racially misers…for example we cannot get away paying R5,000 a year wajebaat and sabeel and turn up for over 100 days to use the jamaat facilities, madrassas, Amil and meals and then say we are being squeezed.

From the time a child is born to the day he dies there are taxes. All this well documented - and more importantly - daily experienced by thousands of common bohras. If you think it is an exaggeration then all I can say that you are quite out of touch with reality. Yes, there are people in every group who want everything for nothing. But these are exceptions. Don't use exceptions to justify the rules.

You say it is tamasha because you see it as tamasha and over reacting. The tamasha happened outside the masjid and are not propgated..the only fault is they are not discouraging the gatherings and socialising of people…but I bet if they did enforce strict Islamic rules like they do in Saudi Arabaia they will be people on this board claiming fundamentalism and extremism. Your damned if you do damned if you don’t.

See my response above. It is a tamasha because the meaning and purpose of the occasion is lost in "having a good time". Strict rules, Islamic or otherwise, is not the answer. If only the Sayedna could show some sincerity of purpose all this tamasha will disappear automatically.

Where is it written that it is haram to live a luxurious life style...

It is written in the Quran and exemplified by the Prophet and Ali in their own lives. Besides, there is something called moral sensibility. Leaders concerned about and sensitive to the plight of their people would not think of living in palaces and travelling by chartered planes. The Dai is a spiritual leader all this luxury, pomp and occasion does not suit him.

and whatever they have added has not diminished Islamic values…let us be frank about it.

Let us be frank and say that you have no idea what "islamic values" are. Anything achieved by force and coercion is un-Islamic, and the bohra system is nothing but a regime of force and coercion. All kinds of taxes, ex-communication, forcing people to toe the line, deification of the Dai, the sajda to him, claiming to be haqiqi kaba and bolta koran are all un-Islamic practices.

There are many who live without raza and misaq and go about their daily lives

Again, you're using the exception to justify the status quo.

Travel the world and then update your reply..degenerating into what are the number of Bhoras dropping off…evolution and civilization will continue and has done for 1400 years.

I don't know what you mean, but my comment was more about how the bohras are degenerating from a decent, sensible community into a fanatic, bigoted cult.

Again you are looking at negatives…rida topi dhadhi are Sunna’s in Islam I have no issue with it ..if you see around you the Muslim Ummah as a whole is moving towards the demonstrating their Islamic identity..to mention a few Hashim Amla RSA cricket player, young women in the West going to court so they can wear Hijab..

Yes it is sunna. Not compulsory. It is enforced on people only be draconian regimes and bigoted Mullas. Muslims in free societies are free to demonstrate their "Muslim identity" in ways they choose, and by the same token they are also free Not to demonstrate their "Muslim identity" if they so choose. Bohras are not free to choose and hence theirs must be a draconian society. Force, coercion = un-Islamic.

I am stunned that Progressives have objection to some one who is encouraging Sunnah…it is a sad that our own Muslims do not respect our identity and yet we seek non-Muslims to respect our values more.

You are stunned because you're not understanding our reasoning. Progressive are not against the Islamic attire and modesty as such. We are against it being used - like so many other things - to control and manipulate people.

You are wrong…The surrender to the will of Dai as a conduit to the will of Allah is the basic fundamental of Fatimid-Ismaili theology..don’t you ask for Dua through Imams and Dais, My strife with you is you are cherry picking and deciding to justify your hate and opposition while playing around with your limited knowledge. If the rules are to be followed it applies to everything 100% not when you decide and when it suits you.

You're right. But the Dai is conduit to Allah ONLY in spiritual matters. For temporal and social matters he has no authority over the lives of people. Progressives are objecting to Dai's and his regime's insistence that bohras submit to their will in matters that have nothing to do with religion or spirituality.

This may be the case but its is the cost many have accepted. Why do you drag every one in your attacks…target the specific people who are corrupt and fleecing. Leave the dai alone and stop trashing around the whole community.

There are no "specific" people. No bad apples. This is the way system works, only some individual tend to be worse than others. Remember Abu Ghraib? Torture is endemic in American military but these few individuals stepped out of line and the administration tried to justify it as a case of a few bad apples. Staying with example, with all the depredations in Iraq and Afghanistan would you blame "specific" soldiers or their commander in chief in the White House? When things go wrong, the boss must take the rap.

Mind you what was illegal in 60’s is now quite ok in many countries..such as taking diamonds or large cash is ok as long as it is declared while in 60’s one could never export dollars…now thanks to economic globalisation.

Great! So long it's "legal" it's okay to do it. So now it's okay for mullas to carry (ill-gotten) diamonds in their pockets rather than hide them in their pagdis. It's okay for Sayedna and his handlers to fleece bohras in a foreign country and "legally" launder the money to secret bank accounts in Cayman islands and Swiss banks and other such safe havens. Don't you think we are missing something very simple and vital in all this: morality???

You use extreme words..”complete violation”.., prove to me within the context of our scriptures where Sayedna is breaching interpretations to the word by enforcing some of the rules ?

Proof? Open any of our source books and show me the justification for "raza" and "misaq" as they are being used today. Or for the sajda to the Dai. Or for the Dai being the sole owner of Bohra properties. Or for calling himself Sultan. Or for ex-communication. Or for extorting money from the community and not spending on its welfare. One could go on....

Do you think to govern 1 million people is easy with no rules and people an do what they like and when they like. Your concept is for Sayedna to be a preacher in a church and people do what they like…you forget Islam there is no separation of dunia and din. There is no compulsion to join Islam but when you join you have to follow strict rules. Research the concept for yourself.

Rules, yes. Coercsion, no. Even in religious matters. The role of the Dai is limited to the spiritual sphere. The Dai is the master of Din of his believers but not their Duniya. Yes, Islam does not distinguish between din an duniya but it leaves the matter between the believer and Allah. You're right about "no compulsions" but wrong about the rules. Islam and even our Bohra faith and traditon do not give anybody the authority to impose "rules" on others. Not even "religious rules" leave alone social and temporal rules.

I am now not sure you sound incencerely to be sympathetic of his health and welfare but opposed to his lifelong mission!

I do not have to prove my sincerity to you or anyone. However, I'm curious about Sayedna's "lifelong mission". Please do elaborate.

PS: Interesting some people on this board like spectators are cheering you with the classic Indian..waah waah ..thinking because one has posted long ended response he MUST have made the point to shut me up….mates bring it on!

GB, I've not intention to shut you up. As long as you have a question or comment I'll respond. But these things tend to get repetitive so from this point on I'll only respond to comments that have not already be answered one way or the other.

[Al Zulfiqar]

GB,

you started out on this thread by first defending the ashura picnic in mombasa on grounds of economic benefits. when that was shot down, you talked about yr patriotism for yr 'motherland'. based on my extensive travels to entire east africa and the hundreds of my relatives and friends there, i showed you how much love our people there have for their 'motherland' and vice versa how much love the blacks have for us indians and bohras, that they loot and rape us at the slightest excuse. not once but several times over the past several decades. so that argument of yrs also held no water.

then you started talking about majority and how the numbers cannot lie. when even that logic of yrs did not succeed, you reverted to the classic argument of, ' we have to change with the times', 'whats wrong if we get together and pray and do maatam' et al. and now finally when you have been deprived of all reasonable arguments, u bring out yr trump card - 'ok, so its a few bad apples, but the syedna is very innocent and look at his age, blah blah etc.' and what ever we do under him is all islamic etc.

is it? answer me this.

1) is it morally, ethically and on humanitarian grounds acceptable for a 'RELIGIOUS LEADER' who calls himself the NATIQ-E-QURAN and HAQIQI KAABA, who bills himself as ALLAH NA DAI, who compares himself with HUSSAIN, and who constantly lectures about compassion, peace and respect for life; to hunt wild animals like elephants, wild buffalo and lions, all of which are on the endangred species list, by bribing corrupt politicians in africa?????????? is this what a RELIGIOUS LEADER does for his shaukh?? now dont say that that it is legal and they give him special license for it. we all know how it is obtained. do you at all find it morally reprehensible and disgusting? a spiritual leader hunting animals??!!

if you have respect for him because of his fragile age, then how come at the age of 97, he can still have the cruel brutality in his soul to kill innocent animals? can u accept a religious leader like this? who talks about one thing and then does something else?

2) why does the syedna treat ordinary bohras with contempt as unequals and untouchables by forcing bohras to keep a rumaal between them and not touch his hand? but that rule is ignored when the bohra hands holds money? do you even know when and how this 'modern' practice came about?

3) why doesnt the syedna ever talk about his mother, or observe her remembrance in any way? are you even interested in knowing why? a mother's position in a man's life is higher in stature than his wife's. how come he has made his wife's grave a pilgrimage site and her urus is celebrated, sahifa's named after her etc, and his mothers memory has been deliberately obliterated?

4) why doesnt he ever visit a poor bohra's house, even if invited with all respect and dignity? have you ever tried yrself? do you know what are his monetary conditions?

5) do you know that all the high-powered hired employees of the syedna handling the family's finances are all non-bohras and non-muslims? why?? similarly in the west, many jamaats have hindu accountants. do we not have a single competent accountant in our communities here? many of whom are jobless or struggling at low salaries? for a good cause of the masjid there are many bohra accountants or CA's who wud donate their services for free. then why are they not employed?

6) why is the syedna, inspite of being invited and where much larger numbers of bohras can attend, where all resources and logistics are available, not hold his annual moharram picnic in towns where there are 10-15000 bohras in india? where bohras from abroad can also easily get visas and it is economical for them attend? why?? are u aware of the annual summons at saifee mahal where each town jamaat is asked to make its moharram sales pitch? do u know what it entails? are u even bothered to know?

there are many more questions, but for now, let us see u come up with sensible and convincing answers to the above. yr answers will determine whether it is worthwile debating anything in the future with u or ignoring you as a complete waste of time. take care to research yr answers thoroughly and dig deep before u just come back making wild and unsubstantiated general statements or personal attacks. since u say that all yr interactions with amils and shezaadas have always been very pleasant, u shud have no problem approaching them for answers.

[Al-Muizz]

You guys must be the dumbest bunch of Desis in the planet....PLEASE tell me you are not Indians, but Pakis?! At least that would explain the level of stupidity and magnanimous ignorancy in these postings!

MORONS! Do you know how hot Mombasa is? I'd like to see you uneducated taxi drivers wearing suits and shoes in a place like Texas. That would be a sight, seeing you idiots sweating like a fat man in a cage of hungry lions.

As Moula Ali (AS) so eloquently said "It is better to keep quiet and let people think you are an idiot, than opening your mouth and proving it!"

[GreatBarrier]

AZ, I am unable to provide answers for your questions because these questions should be asked to Sayedna directly and I do not have access to him..you could try.

Talking about his mother is his private matter, if he was so much against mothers he would not preach that we Mumin should respect our parents and pray At Tayat. Going or not going to poor could or could not have been done publicly and by doing so what is that he needs tor to proove and what is the definition of poor...I may be poorer than you are becase you drive a Benz and I drive a Mazda.

Hunting may be unacceptable in some societies but since he has accepted an offer to hunt where it is legal it does not make it a crime and infact the VP Chenney used to hunt birds and the US almost elected another Moose hunting VP.

However your questions or their answers do not affect me directly nor do I see how they impact the Dawood Bohra community generally nor change my faith similar to the few shortcomings of my individual children or parents do not change my loyalty or love for them. Overall his good outperfroms any shortcomings and that is why I regard him as the leader.

[Smart]

@GB
What a climbdown!
Form being the epitome of perfection, your concept of the Syedna has come to being a leader, whom you accept warts and all.
Fantastic change in just one thread. keep up your tryst with the truth and your eyes open and soon you will develop into a reformist.

[Al Zulfiqar]

gb,

what a classic cop out!! thanks for proving my point with yr perverted logic. for u a spiritual, religious leader like syedna and a corrupt political leader are the same. also perhaps a goonda like bal thackeray and dawood ibrahim. u see no difference? great!

in yr world anything appearing legal is perfectly ok, morality and ethics be damned. by feigning ignorance and yr final chickening out argument, 'i dont know, ask the syedna' crap which is a crock of bull, u have conclusively proved that you are a shamless coward and a liar. if u dont have any answers what were u doing here all this time defending an unethical, immoral spiritual leader who only pays lipservice to platitudes on preaching others. either u are the syedna himself to have been standing up for something which has no leg to stand on or u are a paid lackey sent here as cannon fodder to divert attention. we wish that u and yr fellow retards like jayanti, gulf et al continue for ever on this forum because it only shows and proves how morally corrupt yr leader and u are as his follower. May i say ghanu jeevo to all of u abdes? we need people like u to make us feel good about ourselves.

i repeat again:

you are a perfect example of a brainwashed bohra of today - outwardly educated, perhaps materially successful, but a coward through and through, deeply ignorant, shameless, spiritually illiterate and morally bankrupt.

[Aarif]

Hunting may be unacceptable in some societies but since he has accepted an offer to hunt where it is legal it does not make it a crime and infact the VP Chenney used to hunt birds and the US almost elected another Moose hunting VP.

GB,

Here you have gone a little overboard. Let's say in some country it is legally allowed to hunt human beings. So going by your logic in such a country one can kill humans in cold blood because it is legal. Is that what you are saying? Also, Syedna goes for this lavish hunting trips with his chamchaas using our community money. Does he have a right to misuse community funds on killing animals??? Can you imagine how much good he can do for the community by not going on one hunting trip and distributing that money to the poors... There are people in our community who cannot afford two square meals and here we have syedna who blows away million of dollors on his hobby of hunting... I am surprised when people like you come over this forum and try to justify such misdoings of Syedna... I am sorry to say but you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Bro. Arif,

may i humbly suggest that neither you, nor our other learned members on this forum shud waste their time with such fanatic rascals who have absolutely no ethics and morals. whether it is legal or not shud a spiritual leader be killing innocent wild animals? now that is something which this idiot accepts and even encourages. i for one, will not be responding to such inane posters from now on.

as for all my other questions he ran away with his tail between his legs, the coward.

[GreatBarrier]

Once gain you demonstrate emotions in a debate..calling me a coward and rascal....have you run out of comments...Look the so called learned Progressive..you will not convert me and I am not here to justify my faith or convert you or on a look out for an alternative society...

I have atleast succeeded in demonstrating that you get upset if you do not win an argument and you display the same bad oppressive mentality that you are asking us liberal Maula loving followers to disconnect from. If in your terms we are in frying pan then those who leave now we will be jumping into the fire if they followed you.

You seem to be on a mission that you hope by your methods Majority Orthodox bohras will leave Sayedna and cause degenerate (one of you even used the statement) the community in a mob mentality. My aim is to give those people who you do achieve to raise doubts in their minds to also have a third perspective which helps them not get carried away by your art of criticsing and relying on specific extracts that you may have cleverly targeted to achive your goals...you could call me trying to be an umpire or 7th sense for them so when they are slipping into your trap they can hold onto an anchor and reconsider their slide, get up or if they still want to join you then why bother holding them within the fold.

I am putting forward an argument against your criticism of a person, leader or society where you have serious spiritual disagreements. I am giving many Bohras who may be reading through this site a chance to see that if we use worldly behaviours and environment Orthodox and Moual is not that bad and if you do decide to leave there are other options to Progressives and I wish them well since they are free to choose their faith.

[Al-Muizz]

GB,

Al-Zulfikar is another example of the level of dumb dumbs in the PDB group of monkeys. On one hand their leader Engineer says they believe in the Dai but not the corruption, on the other they have taxi drivers like Ali Bhutto here who don't know wat he believes in....

DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB

[candela]

Assalaamu alaikum everyone, Great Barrier,

GB, I've got to give you credit for being one of the most level-headed posters on this thread, Alhamdullilah. Many of the Progressive Dawoodi Bohras responding to you have apparently "seen the light" enough to know that Burhanuddin is corrupt, but not enough to remove arrogance, rudeness and disrespect from their demeanors. You've been calling them on their rudeness and have been posing reasonable counterarguments and points, but some of them are so self-righteous that they have decided you're not worth talking to. But personally, I've been impressed with what you've had to say.

I've come to bring up some points in response to your second-last post, in order that issues might be raised and so we all might come closer to truth, insha-Allah. My points are:

-I can't even imagine someone having the courage to raise the points that Al Zulfiqar brought up to Dr. Burhanuddin and hearing an honest reply. Can you? Can you think of any examples where Dr. Burhanuddin addressed the Dawoodi Bohra community in response to concerns raised by brave individuals that brought Dr. Burhanuddin's character into question?

-You say: "Overall his good outperfroms any shortcomings and that is why I regard him as the leader." If you regard him as the leader, and agree w/ the notion that he's infallible, then how can you accept that he might have shortcomings? Of course, by shortcomings we mean actions or ways of his that or seem to or do contradict Islam. If he's infallible, then it can't be okay that he does the kinds of things Al Zulfiqar mentioned. And if he does those things, he's probably not infallible, in which case he's also a liar too (for saying he's infallible), in which case he cannot be the true Dai.

Thanks for your thoughts GB!

-Candela

[GreatBarrier]

WAS Candela..I am not deserving of any credit..we return to world the favours it has bestowed on us and thank Allah for the intelligence.

Let me respond to your queries

[I can't even imagine someone having the courage to raise the points that Al Zulfiqar brought up to Dr. Burhanuddin and hearing an honest reply. Can you? Can you think of any examples where Dr. Burhanuddin addressed the Dawoodi Bohra community in response to concerns raised by brave individuals that brought Dr. Burhanuddin's character into question?

I do not know of an example..but I can only comment the dispute is surrounded by emotions on both sides. However I know he has sent emisaries to invite the progessives back into the fold. I know he and his adminstration are quite strong on forgive and forget.

These disputes are referred to regularly in sermons and as recently as in Muharam 1430 he did acknowledge that enemies (opposition) have been around and we should expect them to be around. This statement is a positive in my opinion that shows in a healthy democracy one expects that not everyone will agree 100% of the time.

If you regard him as the leader, and agree w/ the notion that he's infallible, then how can you accept that he might have shortcomings? Of course, by shortcomings we mean actions or ways of his that or seem to or do contradict Islam. If he's infallible, then it can't be okay that he does the kinds of things Al Zulfiqar mentioned. And if he does those things, he's probably not infallible, in which case he's also a liar too (for saying he's infallible), in which case he cannot be the true Dai.

I have not assumed his infallible neither he has personally stated so. He has always stated he is Imams Dai which means he is a delegate of the Imam and not equal or superior. In his Namaaz he recites Duas which request forgiveness from Allah. However we have fanatics who exagerate his attributes in their own praises but more from love and blind faith rather than relaying his thoughts.

Regarding the other statement shortcomings I do not blieve he intends to contradict Islam, shortcomings are perceived by us when we observe the indirect consequences of the instructions eg when he says women should wear beards and the over zealous local priest goes and forces people.

While liar in my view is someone who intentionally falsifies and I do not have evidence that he has done that.

[SBM]

GB Quote
"However I know he has sent emisaries to invite the progessives back into the fold. I know he and his adminstration are quite strong on forgive and forget".
Since you made a very powerful statement that YOU KNOW he has sent emissaries, can you please name them and who, when and where he sent those emissaries. Beating up of relatives of Mukasir saheb, looting the house of Dr. Engineer and then killing and hurting the members in Surat, Udaipur by some of the Kotharis Goons and students of Jamiya are not considered as emissaries of peace but as PIRATES OF SOMALIA.
You also have not answered AZ's question about the silence on Syedna's mother, with your deep knowledge and connection, would you elaborate on the subject and that way you can quite AZ and others once and for all on that particular subject.

[Al Zulfiqar]

oma,

this guy gb is a closed minded fanatic and a coward slippery eel who keeps shifting his stances and his answers every time. he will come up with a thousand excuses not to answer directly to the point. when he wants to provoke, he shows as if he knows everything personally, but when you ask him, he pretends ignorance and then answers, 'i dont know, ask the syedna.'

what can u expect from a slave, (abde syedna) a follower of a religious leader who murders animals for a hobby?

[Humsafar]

Candela, you raise good points about the way some progressives are conducting this conversation. I sincerely urge them to tone down their anger and rhetoric. We have to realise that many orthodox bohras who come here have a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings about the reform movement and are also often ignorant of Bohra faith and tradition. As progressives it is our obligation to inform and "educate" them. Calling them names and condemning them outright is not at all helpful. Please give this a thought - we spend a lot of time and energy writing our posts here and it would be a shame and such a waste if they do not create any positive influence or dismissed as "emotional" rants. True, some of them come here to confuse and obfuscate, but if we are patient and polite and stick to the points we would defeat their purpose. Sorry for being "preachy" but I thought it had to be said.

Great Barrier, You have evaded the questions Candela asked you. You must show more substance and intellectual honesty. And you have ignored my posts. I tried to respond to all your questions and comments, and I'm sure you cannot be completely satisfied with them. Don't you have anything more to say? I'm willing to continue the conversation. Awaiting your response.

[makberi]

WAS Candela..I am not deserving of any credit..we return to world the favours it has bestowed on us and thank Allah for the intelligence.

I do not know of an example..but I can only comment the dispute is surrounded by emotions on both sides. However I know he has sent emisaries to invite the progessives back into the fold. I know he and his adminstration are quite strong on forgive and forget.

These disputes are referred to regularly in sermons and as recently as in Muharam 1430 he did acknowledge that enemies (opposition) have been around and we should expect them to be around. This statement is a positive in my opinion that shows in a healthy democracy one expects that not everyone will agree 100% of the time.

.

i dont think he really is open minded...he terms the progressives as "dawaat na dushmano" doing "fitnat"....as if to be open minded and to challenge wud amount to blasphemy......mention the name of asghar ali engineer to any conservative bohra and the reaction will be proof itself.....

I have not assumed his infallible neither he has personally stated so. He has always stated he is Imams Dai which means he is a delegate of the Imam and not equal or superior. In his Namaaz he recites Duas which request forgiveness from Allah. However we have fanatics who exagerate his attributes in their own praises but more from love and blind faith rather than relaying his thoughts.

Regarding the other statement shortcomings I do not blieve he intends to contradict Islam, shortcomings are perceived by us when we observe the indirect consequences of the instructions eg when he says women should wear beards and the over zealous local priest goes and forces people.

While liar in my view is someone who intentionally falsifies and I do not have evidence that he has done that.

i have heard many sermons where he has referred to himself as masoom i.e. infalliable...(in a recent bayan in mombasa he said "dai ni zaat masom hoi che")..he asks for forgiveness for the common bohras not for himself......
he speaks a lot abt valayat i.e. dai ne mohabbat...which is mandatory for acceptance of all ur deeds..u mite pray 5 times a day but if u dont love the dai ur namaaz is not qabool.....its things like this tht make u wonder...cuz as far as my interpretation u have to have valayat for the Imam..not the dai.....

[Al Zulfiqar]

""Great Barrier, You have evaded the questions Candela asked you. You must show more substance and intellectual honesty. And you have ignored my posts.""

people like gb, muizz, jayanti, gulf, pig, frog, bird et al, suffer from a disease called 'abdesyedna'.

this disease affects both hemispheres of the brain.

in the left side of the brain, nothing is right.
on the right side of the brain, nothing is left.

this disease spreads slowly but rather insidiously. causative factors identified are: a) attending too many majalises. b) attending sabaks. c) doing purjosh maatam several times in a day, esp. after going to sleep and before waking up. d) severe engorgement of food after maatam and resultant strain on delicate abdominal muscles and finally reduction of vital blood and nervous supply to the medulla oblongata and cerebral cortex. the vagus nerve suffers spasms and haemorrhages may result in the gastric lining and skull cavity. e) the patient finally enters into a dull, zombie like state whereby their actions are controlled remotely by their masters and triggered by certain key words, such as "ya hussain, aqa maula, haq na dai, dawat na dushman and ghanu jeevo". f) a complete matamorphosis then occurs wherein patient alternately cries, goes into bouts of hysteria, shouts religious slogans, curses and abuses imagined enemies and attacks food with the gusto of a starved wolf, showing signs of complete loss of control over normal cognitive functions.

such diseased souls, having been rejected by the usual health system and its normal balances and checks, are then buried by their masters and handlers with a stone and promissory note, placed on their chests, abandoned to their fate.

the abdesyedna disease leaves a patient 'impotent' with few resources to fight it. if i may take poetic license with the shayari of bahadur sher shah zafar, the last mughal emperor..

umr daraaz maangkar laaye they chhe inch,
teen khatanat mein kat gaye,
teen dai ke misaaq mein.....

[GreatBarrier]

Humsafar what question have I not commented on ?

The only I thing which Candela may have not got the answer as expected for is whether Sayedna has specifically referred to the questions Progressives raise and may have generalised and said these enemies instead. But what is the fundamental issue...if i were in his position why would I discuss Al Zulfikar or Ghulam M by name and provide unneccessary publicity and raise their profile.

[mutmaeen]

pppl like al zulf canbela danish like minded and their ilk suffer from a chronic ailment called dawatphobia.the causative factors are usually envy bred by the unflinching ta at of fellow muminen and their proseperity.this leads to unintellectual diarrhea which obsures any good done by the dai and it tends to see negatives in all positives that he does.the patients lament the supposed murder of dais mother without proof.they hallucinate about corruption in kothat without substantiating coz if they had solid proof they cud hv approached any legal authority and got a redressal.in short these patients show a tendency that they wud oppose anything the dai says or does and they wud hv done so if they were alive in the zamaan of imam vasi or nabi

[like_minded]

Mutmaeen

The atrocities of these God pedaling faith jockeys (syedna and his family) is pretty eminent, Religion and God for them is means to control, enslave and loot the community members, If they really believed in God and his messenger or at least had some decency, morals, ethics and compassion, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing now.

It's time folks like you wake up and see the truth, before it's too late!

[Al-Muizz]

COME ON!

Can one of you clowns PUHLEEEEZ clarify WHERE ON GOD'S BLESSED EARTH YOU STAND?

Mr. Engineer says HE BELIEVE IN THE DAI, BUT IS AGAINST THE CORRUPTION IN THE JAMAAT.

That stance says that MR. ENGINEER BELIEVES IN THE LEGITIMACY OF AQA MOULA AS THE RIGHTFUL LEADER OF THE COMMUNITY!

So, then, what do the rest of you jokers believe in? Some of you, like Danish, are half-insane in need of serious medication to curb down their delusions on whether they are Shia or Wahabi...other jokers like AZ...well empty cans make the most noise!

IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE LEGITIMACY OF THE DAI, THEN HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU HAVE YOUR OWN MAJLIS YOUR OWN IMAMAT, ETC???? DOESN'T THIS GO AGAINST THE VERY TEACHING OF THE PROPHET? IT MAKES YOU ALL NON-MUSLIMS!

GET YOUR BEARINGS STRAIGHT!!!!!!!!!

[like_minded]

So, then, what do the rest of you jokers believe in?

I believe in my own self, Is it hard for you to contemplate? For me it's very easy and simple.


DOESN'T THIS GO AGAINST THE VERY TEACHING OF THE PROPHET? IT MAKES YOU ALL NON-MUSLIMS!

Try teaching, the teachings of Prophet to your bawa shafiq! He is the one, badly in need of it!

Tell you what.... why don't you take those pages which he reads out during his bayaans, bind them up, make a book out of it.... then shove it up his back side ... sideways and hammer it up... That will surely do him some good.

[mutmaeen]

lm

what u say is too general and sweeping and a sort of a fashion symbol preferred by the anti-establishment elements like you.if the human rights were assurped and finacial impropriety so rampant and as u and ur ilk profess oodles of education and intelligence it should be easy for u folks to take up cudgels for the supposedly victimised bohras and fight for them legally either in human rights commision or any tax fora? can u do it? have u the substantial evidence? if no than its plain that the enimity is with the persona of the dai and nothing more

[Maqbool]

Does any one knows about stempad in Mombasa on Asura wher 100 injured and few died?

[Danish]

Does any one knows about stempad in Mombasa on Asura wher 100 injured and few died?

Perhaps not in Mombasa but in Iraq, Pakistan and elsewhere.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... apse_x.htm

http://pakistantimes.net/2004/03/03/top.htm

http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Ashura

[Aarif]

Maqbool,

I think its a rumor.. No such thing happened in Mombassa.

[Al Zulfiqar]

admin, its time now to close this thread dont u think, because people have run out of things to say about syedna in mombasa.

[East Africawalla]

I heard that there was a stampede with 4 people died and about 10 hurt.

They were all trying to rush to do kadambosi to Molana

[GreatBarrier]

Is there an authentic source of this information...my sources in Mombasa or media has no record of deaths ?

Even if death was cuased these are our brothers in race, religion and culture we may have the same genes whether in or out we should not make syncial or sarcastic threads....Islam requires us to behave diffrently ! Let us show indiffrence here...just when our Palestinian brothers are butchered we show compasion and sympathy our symapthy to any inncoent Bohra who is hurt..If inncocent people have been injured then it is regretable..they were just going about prcatising their faith.

I may disagree with Progressives on issues and views but I draw the line in the sand that I will not cross it and to wish you death or celebrate your grief.

[Maqbool]

The information what I have received is from the person who was present at Mombasa.
Due to this stamped the organizing committee also changed immediately. The responsible are Kher and his hatch men who take control of Asara management just to make money.

I do not know why GreatBarrier has expressed his views in this forum since no body in this forum has celebrated the deaths on the contrary the fanatics are making mockery of deaths, can be verified in other threads.