Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist

[East Africawalla]

The key message for people from Mainstream to come to this forum is finding more in detail some of any attrocities or curruptions of either Amils or his councillors - lets keep it to a local level and see how you can bring changes to people's thinking and perceptions but my biggest worry is that people like Zulfikar and co will put off people by putting out the same cassette over and over - I think people like Zulfikar and co do not want to instigate any change in the community, they would rather get the glory by continuing by do gaalis to Syedna so as to put off people visiting this sites.

Its in our blood to find any news or gossipps so lets give them what they want to hear, open the doors and see the changes

[like_minded]

that ramadan in chennai people were bold for that just one night .after which they caved in-there was no unity and no guts to stand up to the amil steadfastly

Why did they cave in? Unity plays an important part surely, but the reason here is different. The aamil warned them with dire consequences, Obviously because he enjoys strong backing from the rogues in Kothar, and we know the connection Kothar has world-wide, They are much bigger and stronger than mafias of the world.

I am sure such incidents do not go unnoticed and that Kothar must be well aware of what happened in Chennai during ramzan, Then why didn't Syedna or Kothar address this issue in public? Why no action against Kher? Simple.... because they all sail in the same boat! If you raise your voice against an aamil or anyone connected with this mafia (Kothar) then be prepared to face the consequences..

[East Africawalla]

We understand all you are saying but our point is widen the audience on the problems therefore people are more aware and can start commenting and discussions can start happening and changes will have to happen , at the moment they do not have a forum to express their views because this forum has been hijacked by likes of you who puts off people coming because you do not stop slagging off Syedna, its what is called playing the game

[like_minded]

We understand all you are saying but our point is widen the audience on the problems therefore people are more aware and can start commenting and discussions can start happening and changes will have to happen , at the moment they do not have a forum to express their views because this forum has been hijacked by likes of you who puts off people coming because you do not stop slagging off Syedna, its what is called playing the game

This forum has been active since many years doing a wonderful job for the community at large. Reform has to happen at grass root level, and that can happen only if people start challenging just about everything.

Democracy must prevail in the true sense, and for that, people involved in its administration must be held accountable including Syedna and his family. Corruption at the lower level will cease to exist if the higher level is made accountable.

Even if an aamil gets expelled for corruption by the higher-ups, It wont change the system. Because the garbage is at the higher level... Its time we accept this truth.

[like_minded]

The key message for people from Mainstream to come to this forum is finding more in detail some of any attrocities or curruptions of either Amils or his councillors - lets keep it to a local level and see how you can bring changes to people's thinking and perceptions but my biggest worry is that people like Zulfikar and co will put off people by putting out the same cassette over and over - I think people like Zulfikar and co do not want to instigate any change in the community, they would rather get the glory by continuing by do gaalis to Syedna so as to put off people visiting this sites.

Its in our blood to find any news or gossipps so lets give them what they want to hear, open the doors and see the changes

Look... this is nothing new, Many orthos openly condemn the aamils, but what happens? They are aware of the scandals involving aamils etc, but nothing happens! The reason is.... they are not able to see the bigger picture, The real culprit!

[East Africawalla]

Everyone have a view on the situation , why not share it and discuss in a forum , i know people talk to each other but why not give them a bigger audience , it makes a change well and good , if it doesn't what do you lose, you are throwing in the towel before its proved/unproved

[Ijtehadi]

AZ:
With all due respect, from your posts and the venom that you keep spiting, it appears that you have a very corrupt and twisted mind. I wonder how you treat your parents. It does not get into your thick head that we all agree to a great extent the points you raise. However, to tackle and to overcome we have to come up with an educated stragtegy, without hurting our religious beliefs, because that is what we are trying to keep in tact. This is a real Jihad, if you will. But you dont get it, all you want to do, on each and every post and on each and every topic is to curse Syedna and his family. Your game plan ends there. You think oh I'm so religious, I have served my purpose, or whatever.....

Please Bro for a moment hold your curses and let's come on a common platform. This is the problem of the entire Muslim Ummah, not 2 Mulsims can come to one thinking, then how can we collectively face the real enemy, when we ourselves consider each other enemies. This has to change - CHANGE WE CAN!!!

I appeal to all the likes of AZ to keep your venom to your selves for now or spit it somewhere else, while we all together as one brethren come up with a plan to handle this, going forward.

Nara-e-Takbeer: ALLAH-O-AKBAR!!!!!

[Al Zulfiqar]

The key message for people from Mainstream to come to this forum is finding more in detail some of any attrocities or curruptions of either Amils or his councillors - lets keep it to a local level and see how you can bring changes to people's thinking and perceptions but my biggest worry is that people like Zulfikar and co will put off people by putting out the same cassette over and over - Its in our blood to find any news or gossipps so lets give them what they want to hear, open the doors and see the changes

does anyone here understand the sinister plan of the abdesyednas on this forum after reading the above? see the section i have highlighted above. here is what i posted on another thread:

the argument of the abdes is very devious. if an amil is a crook, its not the syedna's fault, but if anything good is achieved by any bohra anwhere in the world on his/her own merit, then it is due to mola's dua.

no matter how openly corrupt, rude and tyrannical any amil or shezaada is, the dai is always innocent and human, how can he know, is their oh-so-innocent argument.

but on the other hand they attribute to him miraculous powers of being ghaib na maalik, bolta quran and haqiqi kaaba, who can pardon all yr sins at one stroke with his ruku chitthi and overturn Allah's judgement for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

so its like heads u win, tails i lose. their concerted attempt on this board is to protect the syedna at all costs and to that end they are flooding this board daily with posts to fulfill their sinister goal. i am surprised that more people are not able to see through this game plan of theirs...

you may keep cutting off as many evil heads of the monster as you like, but unless u do not choke off the main jugular vein, the fount of all evil, the evil will not only survive, it will spread manifold as it has done over the last 2 syednas..

[East Africawalla]

Zulfikar, You are stuck on a tangent , you think all of us have ulterial motive , we are all trying to assist in helping people , they are our brethren , pls cool down on your anti syedna tirade and lets try what we are trying to achieve

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

Zulfikar, You are stuck on a tangent , you think all of us have ulterial motive , we are all trying to assist in helping people , they are our brethren , pls cool down on your anti syedna tirade and lets try what we are trying to achieve

EAW,

I think we would have to stop answering Zulfikar's post....he is like a dog's tail...(U know what i mean)

[Aarif]

we are all trying to assist in helping people , they are our brethren , pls cool down on your anti syedna tirade and lets try what we are trying to achieve

EAW,

Can you pls explain how you are trying to assist and help people??? Also, I do not understand who are your brethren out here??? If you are talking about the orthos than they are actually quite unhappy with the way kothar is treating them. Now Syedna is the boss of Kothar. So definitely the boss is responsible for the actions of his subordinates (atleast a good boss will always take the responsibility). Also, what steps and awareness you are talking about?? Reforming the corrupt aamils is like cutting off the branches from the tree of corruption. Unless we get to the root and cut it off new branches will keep growing time and again. You remove one corrupt aamil and he will be replaced by another... Unless you have something concrete to say please stop beating around the bush...

[Al Zulfiqar]

EAW,
I think we would have to stop answering Zulfikar's post....he is like a dog's tail...(U know what i mean)

thanks, pls do.

[mutmaeen]

Why did they cave in? Unity plays an important part surely, but the reason here is different. The aamil warned them with dire consequences, Obviously because he enjoys strong backing from the rogues in Kothar, and we know the connection Kothar has world-wide, They are much bigger and stronger than mafias of the world.

unity is a vital tool when you stand up against oppression-a place called coimbatore in tamil nadu is a prime example of that

[Regal]

LOL why are the orthos that come here so obssessed with the syedna?? Anyone can say whatever he wants as long as its humane...If anyone is saying something against the syedna..it is well-earned.

EAW or AMZ or others...before you come to this forum or before analysing anything related to change...keep an open mind...for a moment keep everything taught to you in the past aside and then try to see the change in the different light.Accept first that everything can not be as it seems . then only you can understand...

I know this is hard since you were brought up in a very orthodox environment ( i mean one of my cousins tried to force me to speak dawat ki zaban at all times and implied its anti-bohri if i dont) but i assure you it wont hurt. Open your eyes and just look around you. Dont you see blind following of just one person.?? Dont you see people paying a huge chunk out of their pockets in the name of this one person?? dont you see photos of this one person in every bohri house?? dont you see that everything that is done is credited to this one person?? (Aqa molla created this masjid here, aqa molla did that there, aqa molla ni shan si ...., when he didnt do anything...his family doesnt have a halaal kamai that you can claim that the aqa molla built this n that ... all the money he gets is exhorted) ....

As is said by someone famous i forgot...." People should only keep opinions..not beliefs. Because beliefs can never be changed"

[Regal]

and as far as your argument that people are put off coming to the forum cuz of anti-syedna rants....maybe it is true maybe it is not...but people can only change if they want to be changed...if they are put off then good-riddance.

[like_minded]

The problem with blind-followers is that they are too lazy to shift from the comfort zone which they believe they are in at present. Anything which threatens their comfort zone, they either dismiss it or become vindictive.

Comfort zone here implies to the blind-faith in syedna, believing that he is the solution to all worldly and after-life problems, that he has powers to perform miracle, and that with his guidance they can lead a comfortable life.

However, when they face rude realities involving corruption and all other evils in the system, they cannot comprehend the fact that syedna being the spiritual head of this system is actually responsible for it, Their conditioning does not allow them to... It is here that they conveniently segregate the higher level with the lower level, to justify themselves.. On a much broader perspective actually they are fooling themselves!

[Regal]

Yeah that is true.
I say that discussions cannot continue to progress if the orthos keep running away from some questions... lets start by this simple and oft-repeated one.

"How can the syedna and his blind followers claim that the Syedna has knowledge of the "ghaib" is the bolta quran etc etc ...but he cannot catch corrupt amils/his own family members? He is a very very powerful position and if he wants to ..he can do something abt it. so dont give the same Hazrat Ali accepting the first three khalifas bullshit.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that either A- the syedna is involved in this. B- the dai and the current syedna is not the bolta quran - or has ghaib ka alm. ie. just a fool like the rest. Unless someone answers and proves me wrong.

[East Africawalla]

As I have said some of you guys are stuck on a tangent, you do not wish for a change, this rhetorics keeps you going , you are the best selling medicine for keeping out the orthos from any discussions , you just want to talk to each other who are stuck on slagging off Syedna and makes you popular how much hatred you can portray or how much past knowledge you keep on talking, lets try to be positive and actually make a difference to sort out issues at local levels first, i wish you people could look at bigger picture

[Regal]

lets try to be positive and actually make a difference to sort out issues at local levels first, i wish you people could look at bigger picture

as i have stated before solving issues at local levels is just a short-term issue which u resort to keep urself satisfied that the change is coming. Yes, i wish that people like yourself can look at the bigger picture.

[East Africawalla]

so your solution is? overthrow the whole system ? , that brilliant strategy

[like_minded]

so your solution is? overthrow the whole system ? , that brilliant strategy

Why not? A system which is rotten, does not deserve to stay in place. For the change in system, the first issue is to understand and be open minded about everything which is connected to it. The stupid beliefs, rituals etc, People who are responsible in keeping the followers dull and dependent... all this has to be challenged.

Merely getting a few aamils kicked out of their jobs wont change the system, Kick out the stupid beliefs which are embedded in our minds with years of conditioning by the vested interests.

[Regal]

overthrow the whole system? thats one on the alternatives. Overthrow the current establishment and install another is another one.

A reform is a correction of abuses; a revolution is a transfer of power.
Sure we can create a revolution and kick the corrupt amils/higherups and bring a new board of directors ...it will still be the same. What we need to do is get rid of all the unislamic beliefs and additions to the true religion that have been made and curb the powers of the amils and syedna himself so all this stops now. No syedna in the future can abuse his power then.

[East Africawalla]

And how are going to do that personally - any suggestions ? easy to talk , what are you actually going to do apart from the rhetoric

[Humsafar]

"Overthrow the system" sounds nice and dramatic. But my guess is that the real change will come in slow increments. Bohras being bohras, they will not do anything unless they see "fayda" (profit) in it. Our effort should be to show them that there is real profit in not paying up. Resist the unreasonable demands of the amil, and when enough members of the jamaat take a stand the amil will have to back down. To reach this point will take slow and patient organising - and perhaps outside support (possibly form reformists). If one jamaat can do it, others will surely follow and we will have a domino effect - and before long we'll have the "royal family" on the run. Call it "overthrow of the system" if you will. The new system will have a benevolent and spiritually inspired Dai who will guide them in deen and leave the matters of duniya to bohras and their jamaats and let them manage their own affairs. That is the vision we should work towards. Even we get half way there it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

[Regal]

how is it going to be done? LOL its a secret

[East Africawalla]

Thats the discussion point on how and what , ideas welcome apart from total overthrow of the system

We need people who are politically aware, understand how to play the game, able to get various info

The key point should be no Anti Syedna tirade otherwise information gathering will stop.

We need some adults in this venture not ranting kids

[Regal]

oh i almost forgot....the question u ran away from again...scroll up.

[Maqbool]

In this discussion it seems that EAW wants that whatever reforms is required it should be addressed keeping Sayedna out.

That means do not call a kana a kana. When you say any thing regarding the affairs of our community it ends at Sayedna. Amil always do what ever he likes, but says that he is doing this because sayedna wishes. It may be increase of sabil or not giving safai chitty on any foolish reason.

I have raised the cost of the mosque question in another thread. The cost of building of the mosque is less then inauguration cost. This is a fact and every bohras knows this. We can call this a dadagiri or gundagiri or corruption. Now if this you consider a gali then how to address this?

You abruptly increase sabil, you do not give any account on this. When a new jamat comes in to power and finds that lots of money has been robbed, the new amil says that forget the past and start with new. The same will be repeated again in the future. And this all is done in the name of Sayedna.

We have written lots of letter complaining to Sayedna and all has gone in to waste paper, not a single is acknowledged. On the jamat level one time they have tried to jailed one person here in Chennai by spending a 15lacks Rs. collected by selling massala space in masjid.

Now I ask EAW tell me in this entire situation what mumenin should do. And if they come here and call Sayedna corrupt or something else, is this is a Gali?

If a popped eye person is to be cured you have to tell him that you are kana. Here if some body is corrupt you have to address him as corrupt.

Please note that I am a Dawoodi Bohra and paying all my dues either collected voluntary or by dadagiri.

[Al Zulfiqar]

In this discussion it seems that EAW wants that whatever reforms is required it should be addressed keeping Sayedna out.

That means do not call a kana a kana. When you say any thing regarding the affairs of our community it ends at Sayedna. .

maqbool, i am glad that atleast you have seen through the sinister and devious plans of the abdes... i have been saying this since some time, but unfortunately many gullibles are swallowing the abdes' strategy and agreeing to keep the syedna out, when he and his family are the mastermind behind all the corruption, injustice and loot being perpetrated in our community in the name of religion..!!

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

maqbool, i am glad that atleast you have seen through the sinister and devious plans of the abdes... i have been saying this since some time, but unfortunately many gullibles are swallowing the abdes' strategy and agreeing to keep the syedna out, when he and his family are the mastermind behind all the corruption, injustice and loot being perpetrated in our community in the name of religion..

Ok....even if your rubbish is to stand.....you say that people are being looted.....we today see more n more wealth and prosperity in the Dawoodi Bohra community....if u see that this loot (Nauzobillah) is bringing prosperity to u.....i m sure u will allow this.

Have people gone Bankrupt who give Ziyafat to Aqa Moula??? who do khidmat of building masjids??? does Murtaza Dahodwala after donating Rs52crore became begger??? does Fakruddin Sadriwala (Dubai) came on road after donating AED 14million on the niyat of Aqa Moula to do Khidmat of Zari in Jannat ul Baqi......There are thousands of such examples.....

May Allah grant a long and healthy life to our beloved Aqa Moula...Ameen.