This is my first post but i have been visiting this forum for quite some time, and what i have noticed is that on religious as well as social issues Reformists have some different views. And among yourself also you are not on one level.
and their is a lot of tendency to ask questions and create doubts over what are the beliefs of Abdes, so for a change why dont Reformists answer a few questions and come clean on thier intentions because as of now your whole reform movement looks nothing more but hate campaign against individuals.
So here i go with my questions, i hope the answers will be purely question based. these questions are not to question your faith but to better understand it. You can take it as some one standing on the fence and your answers will help to decide on which side one wants to be.
1) What is the take of Reformists on 3 Khalifa’s appointed before Moula Ali (as)
2) How do you revere Aisha (First Khalifa’s daughter) as.
3) What Is the significance of fight of Jamal (camel) for you. Who was right Moula Ali(as) or Aisha. (if both then y they fought)
4) How do you take Imam Hassan(as) truce with Muawiya.
5) Do you believe that Imam Hussain (as) Shahadat read out by Dawoodi Bohra’s is not true, which are the points of disagreement.
6) Fatimid Imam’s of Egypt lived in palaces of grandeur as against the practice of Prophet (saw) and Moula Ali(as). What is the take of Reformists on this.
7) Do you believe in Imam in seclusion or is it a figment of imagination for you.
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
12) How many pillars of Islam are followed By Reformists 5 or 7. If its 7 whose Walayat.
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
18) Who collects Zakat for you, or every individual distributes as per his own wish.
19) In 2009 how much amount was collected from community and how was it disbursed.
20) How does common people under reform banner access dawat books, who authorizes or is it under a open library where anyone who can read and write can access them.
21) What is the official population of Reformists and why is a constant decline and switch over to the mainstream.
22) What is the number of schools, Madarsa, Hospitals that are run by reformists. Kindly do mention the standard of education and syllabus followed.
23) What is the number of people who lead the community services like Prayers, waez, mayyat tawalli. How are they selected and what is the qualification for the same.
24) Places where there are less Reformists and when people die and if the burial is to be done under Main stream dawoodi Bohra kabrastan, is it explicitly told to not keep ruku chitti (to honour the dead person’s wish, as this is what he would have wanted).
25) Do the widow sits for Iddat, what is the time period. Is it same as followed by main stream dawoodi Bohra’s
26) How many Masjids are under Reformists control.
27) A lot of reformists post circulars or instructions from Ejamaat website. Which is accessible through a user ID and password, here user ID being your Ejamaat number, why has the card not been surrendered and requested to delete all the data from the database, as reformists are against this type of data collection which according to them is a intrusion of their personnel space
28) Do Reformists go to Ziyarats, Kerbala, Hajj, and if they go where do they stay, to a very large extent all the places under main stream dawoodi bohra’s are accessible through Ejamaat card only.
29) Which are the ziyarat’s reformists give a miss, I suppose being ideological differences it should be Syedna Taher Saifuddin (aq) or there are more.
30) Do students and professionals give a miss to their exams or duty on the day of Ashura (10th Moharram).
31) Do Reformist man kiss the hand of their Mother in Law and sister in laws. as well as do Reformist women kiss the hand of their Father in law and Brother in laws
Reformists view
Re: Reformists view
welcome aqs.
your questions are very interesting.
I m not intelligent person like you,and few knowledge of history.But i read newspaper daily to live in present.
SO i ve only 2 very easy questions to ask you:
1.Do you and dai support narendra modi? or have ever accept/give any favor from/to him?
2.did maulana Ali collected money from his any of his follower in the name of wajebat,sabeel,salam,raza etc?
these r very simple questions,I hope u ll easily ansewer it .
thankyou very much
your questions are very interesting.
I m not intelligent person like you,and few knowledge of history.But i read newspaper daily to live in present.
SO i ve only 2 very easy questions to ask you:
1.Do you and dai support narendra modi? or have ever accept/give any favor from/to him?
2.did maulana Ali collected money from his any of his follower in the name of wajebat,sabeel,salam,raza etc?
these r very simple questions,I hope u ll easily ansewer it .
thankyou very much
Re: Reformists view
^
i knew this is the way few people will respond. again refer to these lines in my post
i knew this is the way few people will respond. again refer to these lines in my post
So here i go with my questions, i hope the answers will be purely question based. these questions are not to question your faith but to better understand it. You can take it as some one standing on the fence and your answers will help to decide on which side one wants to be.
-
guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Reformists view
wow..was this a attempt to bring him in ur side of fence or to kick him to other side?laloo wrote:welcome aqs.
your questions are very interesting.
I m not intelligent person like you,and few knowledge of history.But i read newspaper daily to live in present.
SO i ve only 2 very easy questions to ask you:
1.Do you and dai support narendra modi? or have ever accept/give any favor from/to him?
2.did maulana Ali collected money from his any of his follower in the name of wajebat,sabeel,salam,raza etc?
these r very simple questions,I hope u ll easily ansewer it .
thankyou very much
-
like_minded
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Reformists view
1) What is the take of Reformists on 3 Khalifa’s appointed before Moula Ali (as)
2) How do you revere Aisha (First Khalifa’s daughter) as.
3) What Is the significance of fight of Jamal (camel) for you. Who was right Moula Ali(as) or Aisha. (if both then y they fought)
4) How do you take Imam Hassan(as) truce with Muawiya.
5) Do you believe that Imam Hussain (as) Shahadat read out by Dawoodi Bohra’s is not true, which are the points of disagreement.
6) Fatimid Imam’s of Egypt lived in palaces of grandeur as against the practice of Prophet (saw) and Moula Ali(as). What is the take of Reformists on this.
7) Do you believe in Imam in seclusion or is it a figment of imagination for you.
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
12) How many pillars of Islam are followed By Reformists 5 or 7. If its 7 whose Walayat.
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
18) Who collects Zakat for you, or every individual distributes as per his own wish.
19) In 2009 how much amount was collected from community and how was it disbursed.
20) How does common people under reform banner access dawat books, who authorizes or is it under a open library where anyone who can read and write can access them.
21) What is the official population of Reformists and why is a constant decline and switch over to the mainstream.
22) What is the number of schools, Madarsa, Hospitals that are run by reformists. Kindly do mention the standard of education and syllabus followed.
23) What is the number of people who lead the community services like Prayers, waez, mayyat tawalli. How are they selected and what is the qualification for the same.
24) Places where there are less Reformists and when people die and if the burial is to be done under Main stream dawoodi Bohra kabrastan, is it explicitly told to not keep ruku chitti (to honour the dead person’s wish, as this is what he would have wanted).
25) Do the widow sits for Iddat, what is the time period. Is it same as followed by main stream dawoodi Bohra’s
26) How many Masjids are under Reformists control.
27) A lot of reformists post circulars or instructions from Ejamaat website. Which is accessible through a user ID and password, here user ID being your Ejamaat number, why has the card not been surrendered and requested to delete all the data from the database, as reformists are against this type of data collection which according to them is a intrusion of their personnel space
28) Do Reformists go to Ziyarats, Kerbala, Hajj, and if they go where do they stay, to a very large extent all the places under main stream dawoodi bohra’s are accessible through Ejamaat card only.
29) Which are the ziyarat’s reformists give a miss, I suppose being ideological differences it should be Syedna Taher Saifuddin (aq) or there are more.
30) Do students and professionals give a miss to their exams or duty on the day of Ashura (10th Moharram).
31) Do Reformist man kiss the hand of their Mother in Law and sister in laws. as well as do Reformist women kiss the hand of their Father in law and Brother in laws
I am not a reformist but all the same, would like to answer these questions, just for the heck of it... It's my personal view only
1. I have no take on something which happened 1500 years ago....
2. Same answer
3. Same answer
4. Same answer
5. Imam Hussain's shahadat is a part of history... He did what he deemed right at that time, it has no connection with religion whatsoever..like how it is made out today by our shameless clergy.
6. I dont know if they lived in palaces... and I don't think it really matters
7. Imam in seclusion is the biggest lie one could ever imagine, This fairy-tale is purposely kept in place to fool the gullible sheep
8. Syedna Mohd Burhanuddin is a criminal, whose place should be behind the bars.
9. Mazoon is yet another criminal plus a womanizer, It's not safe for ladies to have him around.
10. How i offer prayers is something very personal, do not want to share it here
11. same as ans no.10
12. I follow my own self, rely mostly on my feelings
13. I got my religious education when I was a kid, and I can tell you it's bull shit and therefore I do not subscribe to this idea at all, unless you want your children to become zombies. I believe that a young child is more educated and spiritual than a so-called learned mullah
14. I don't know
15. Yes sometimes out of family compulsions
16. I don't know as I dont belong to the reformist community
I cannot answer the remaining questions for the reasons stated above.
2) How do you revere Aisha (First Khalifa’s daughter) as.
3) What Is the significance of fight of Jamal (camel) for you. Who was right Moula Ali(as) or Aisha. (if both then y they fought)
4) How do you take Imam Hassan(as) truce with Muawiya.
5) Do you believe that Imam Hussain (as) Shahadat read out by Dawoodi Bohra’s is not true, which are the points of disagreement.
6) Fatimid Imam’s of Egypt lived in palaces of grandeur as against the practice of Prophet (saw) and Moula Ali(as). What is the take of Reformists on this.
7) Do you believe in Imam in seclusion or is it a figment of imagination for you.
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
12) How many pillars of Islam are followed By Reformists 5 or 7. If its 7 whose Walayat.
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
18) Who collects Zakat for you, or every individual distributes as per his own wish.
19) In 2009 how much amount was collected from community and how was it disbursed.
20) How does common people under reform banner access dawat books, who authorizes or is it under a open library where anyone who can read and write can access them.
21) What is the official population of Reformists and why is a constant decline and switch over to the mainstream.
22) What is the number of schools, Madarsa, Hospitals that are run by reformists. Kindly do mention the standard of education and syllabus followed.
23) What is the number of people who lead the community services like Prayers, waez, mayyat tawalli. How are they selected and what is the qualification for the same.
24) Places where there are less Reformists and when people die and if the burial is to be done under Main stream dawoodi Bohra kabrastan, is it explicitly told to not keep ruku chitti (to honour the dead person’s wish, as this is what he would have wanted).
25) Do the widow sits for Iddat, what is the time period. Is it same as followed by main stream dawoodi Bohra’s
26) How many Masjids are under Reformists control.
27) A lot of reformists post circulars or instructions from Ejamaat website. Which is accessible through a user ID and password, here user ID being your Ejamaat number, why has the card not been surrendered and requested to delete all the data from the database, as reformists are against this type of data collection which according to them is a intrusion of their personnel space
28) Do Reformists go to Ziyarats, Kerbala, Hajj, and if they go where do they stay, to a very large extent all the places under main stream dawoodi bohra’s are accessible through Ejamaat card only.
29) Which are the ziyarat’s reformists give a miss, I suppose being ideological differences it should be Syedna Taher Saifuddin (aq) or there are more.
30) Do students and professionals give a miss to their exams or duty on the day of Ashura (10th Moharram).
31) Do Reformist man kiss the hand of their Mother in Law and sister in laws. as well as do Reformist women kiss the hand of their Father in law and Brother in laws
I am not a reformist but all the same, would like to answer these questions, just for the heck of it... It's my personal view only
1. I have no take on something which happened 1500 years ago....
2. Same answer
3. Same answer
4. Same answer
5. Imam Hussain's shahadat is a part of history... He did what he deemed right at that time, it has no connection with religion whatsoever..like how it is made out today by our shameless clergy.
6. I dont know if they lived in palaces... and I don't think it really matters
7. Imam in seclusion is the biggest lie one could ever imagine, This fairy-tale is purposely kept in place to fool the gullible sheep
8. Syedna Mohd Burhanuddin is a criminal, whose place should be behind the bars.
9. Mazoon is yet another criminal plus a womanizer, It's not safe for ladies to have him around.
10. How i offer prayers is something very personal, do not want to share it here
11. same as ans no.10
12. I follow my own self, rely mostly on my feelings
13. I got my religious education when I was a kid, and I can tell you it's bull shit and therefore I do not subscribe to this idea at all, unless you want your children to become zombies. I believe that a young child is more educated and spiritual than a so-called learned mullah
14. I don't know
15. Yes sometimes out of family compulsions
16. I don't know as I dont belong to the reformist community
I cannot answer the remaining questions for the reasons stated above.
Re: Reformists view
^
i'll wait till some learned people of Reform movement come ahead and answer these questions.
i'll wait till some learned people of Reform movement come ahead and answer these questions.
-
master.b00t
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:44 am
Re: Reformists view
Meri Nazar Se Gureja Bahoot Raho Lekin
Mere Khulus-E Muhubbat Se Bach Ke Ja Na Sakoge !
bhai ye sab sawwal karke kothar ki paise banane ki trick, aur dadagiri-goonda gardi haraamkhor niti thode hi chhip jayegi ?
Mere Khulus-E Muhubbat Se Bach Ke Ja Na Sakoge !
bhai ye sab sawwal karke kothar ki paise banane ki trick, aur dadagiri-goonda gardi haraamkhor niti thode hi chhip jayegi ?
Re: Reformists view
Brother Aqs,
Salaam,
though the questions are for Reformists, but have you tried asking these question in any sabak or to any Aamil, i hope you would have got answers to all of your queries related to religion
Salaam,
though the questions are for Reformists, but have you tried asking these question in any sabak or to any Aamil, i hope you would have got answers to all of your queries related to religion
Re: Reformists view
1) What is the take of Reformists on 3 Khalifa’s appointed before Moula Ali (as)
=Maulana ALi never fought with them and have coordial relation with all these three.so do we.
2) How do you revere Aisha (First Khalifa’s daughter) as.
Maulana Ali tought us not to abuse women even during fight.
3) What Is the significance of fight of Jamal (camel) for you. Who was right Moula Ali(as) or Aisha. (if both then y they fought)
Maulana Ali pardoned his opponents after the battle without asking them right or wrong,who are we to question.
4) How do you take Imam Hassan(as) truce with Muawiya.
Imama hassan is a model for all of us.His truce brought peace to the community.
5) Do you believe that Imam Hussain (as) Shahadat read out by Dawoodi Bohra’s is not true, which are the points of disagreement.
Just because they read how Imam Hussain fought against injustice and act as yazeed army.
6) Fatimid Imam’s of Egypt lived in palaces of grandeur as against the practice of Prophet (saw) and Moula Ali(as). What is the take of Reformists on this.
7) Do you believe in Imam in seclusion or is it a figment of imagination for you.
It is high time Imam must come out to fight against kothar,we pray for it.
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
He is simply a businessman doing religion as his rozi roti.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
In zahir [open]he seemed to be supporting atrocities against bohras, Batin only Allah knows.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
We pray with good intentions,folding hands are secondary things.
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
The one which is approved by maulana Ali.
12) How many pillars of Islam are followed By Reformists 5 or 7. If its 7 whose Walayat.
We just don’t believe in pillars ,we actually know anything done with khushoo will make Almighty happy.
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
They are open to read whatever they want to learn,we just give our opinions not imposing orders.
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
When he start knowing the manners and become baligh.
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
If fees are not charged for the prayers.
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
They need to cover themselves decently.
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
We use to wear caps,Just to show respect and not to cover brains,
18) Who collects Zakat for you, or every individual distributes as per his o
wn wish.
We found people near us to help.it is good.
19) In 2009 how much amount was collected from community and how was it disbursed.
Come to Mr.Inasaaf residence we ll show you the books.
20) How does common people under reform banner access dawat books, who authorizes or is it under a open library where anyone who can read and write can access them.
You can see this forum and site as example.
21) What is the official population of Reformists and why is a constant decline and switch over to the mainstream.
we are continuously increasing ,u should not dream of any decline.
=Maulana ALi never fought with them and have coordial relation with all these three.so do we.
2) How do you revere Aisha (First Khalifa’s daughter) as.
Maulana Ali tought us not to abuse women even during fight.
3) What Is the significance of fight of Jamal (camel) for you. Who was right Moula Ali(as) or Aisha. (if both then y they fought)
Maulana Ali pardoned his opponents after the battle without asking them right or wrong,who are we to question.
4) How do you take Imam Hassan(as) truce with Muawiya.
Imama hassan is a model for all of us.His truce brought peace to the community.
5) Do you believe that Imam Hussain (as) Shahadat read out by Dawoodi Bohra’s is not true, which are the points of disagreement.
Just because they read how Imam Hussain fought against injustice and act as yazeed army.
6) Fatimid Imam’s of Egypt lived in palaces of grandeur as against the practice of Prophet (saw) and Moula Ali(as). What is the take of Reformists on this.
7) Do you believe in Imam in seclusion or is it a figment of imagination for you.
It is high time Imam must come out to fight against kothar,we pray for it.
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
He is simply a businessman doing religion as his rozi roti.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
In zahir [open]he seemed to be supporting atrocities against bohras, Batin only Allah knows.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
We pray with good intentions,folding hands are secondary things.
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
The one which is approved by maulana Ali.
12) How many pillars of Islam are followed By Reformists 5 or 7. If its 7 whose Walayat.
We just don’t believe in pillars ,we actually know anything done with khushoo will make Almighty happy.
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
They are open to read whatever they want to learn,we just give our opinions not imposing orders.
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
When he start knowing the manners and become baligh.
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
If fees are not charged for the prayers.
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
They need to cover themselves decently.
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
We use to wear caps,Just to show respect and not to cover brains,
18) Who collects Zakat for you, or every individual distributes as per his o
wn wish.
We found people near us to help.it is good.
19) In 2009 how much amount was collected from community and how was it disbursed.
Come to Mr.Inasaaf residence we ll show you the books.
20) How does common people under reform banner access dawat books, who authorizes or is it under a open library where anyone who can read and write can access them.
You can see this forum and site as example.
21) What is the official population of Reformists and why is a constant decline and switch over to the mainstream.
we are continuously increasing ,u should not dream of any decline.
Re: Reformists view
deleted
Last edited by laloo on Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Reformists view
dude aqs is not a abde like me...he is on fence...why givin him nonsensical replies.master.b00t wrote:Meri Nazar Se Gureja Bahoot Raho Lekin
Mere Khulus-E Muhubbat Se Bach Ke Ja Na Sakoge !
bhai ye sab sawwal karke kothar ki paise banane ki trick, aur dadagiri-goonda gardi haraamkhor niti thode hi chhip jayegi ?
Re: Reformists view
Laloo,
Maximum of the answers are ambigous and dont answer anything at all, y dont u leave answering to few learned people. at least you will learn something out of it.
Maximum of the answers are ambigous and dont answer anything at all, y dont u leave answering to few learned people. at least you will learn something out of it.
Re: Reformists view
Hello " aqs " ....
Real interesting questions ... But unfortunately speaking from experience of last 5-6 days on this forum , answers will not be forthcoming...
If you ask about their views on Zakah they will tell you to go read some book instead of posting it over there.. Or they will refer to how heavily taxed the Dawoodi Bohras are instead of talking about their own views...
Lets hope the Anti-Reformist Bohras from other sects of Islam do not label you as a " Pig " and other vile names..
The real purpose of this forum is to bitch about Dawoodi Bohras Sect ..The tag of " Reformist " is a just a Burqa or a veil for such cowards ...
I hope they don't start on the remaining 71 sects as soon as they get bored with the Bohras...
Real interesting questions ... But unfortunately speaking from experience of last 5-6 days on this forum , answers will not be forthcoming...
If you ask about their views on Zakah they will tell you to go read some book instead of posting it over there.. Or they will refer to how heavily taxed the Dawoodi Bohras are instead of talking about their own views...
Lets hope the Anti-Reformist Bohras from other sects of Islam do not label you as a " Pig " and other vile names..
The real purpose of this forum is to bitch about Dawoodi Bohras Sect ..The tag of " Reformist " is a just a Burqa or a veil for such cowards ...
I hope they don't start on the remaining 71 sects as soon as they get bored with the Bohras...
-
guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Reformists view
actual motive is to have some share of the huge money..which they wont get anyways.............
Re: Reformists view
Aqs,
You would find different answers for your questions, as it would be based on individual's view on them.
However, i feel that your saying that you are sitting on the fence and our answers would make the decision for you to make the move is just another ploy for asking these questions. If i see your question, it is laced with certain kind of contempt against reformist or bohras in general. Besides, i dont think that any one's answer would (for that matter, should) make the decision for you.
Most of your question has already been answered on this board umpteen number of times. I would request you to search the forum for it and for further readings, try and go through the site and you would find lot of things.
Nonetheless, I would try to answer few of your question
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
For all practical purposes, he occupies the office of daiship, however we belive that clergy's (read kothar and the dai's extended family) role should be limited in relegious and spiritual spheres only.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
For us, Mazun is an official serving the dawat, and nothing beyond that.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
These 2 question intend to denigrate either of the practice that general ummah follow, however reformists follows the same azan and namaz as mainstream. You may find few or more (depends on who you find) reformist who might have different thoughts on it
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
There are people who have learned themselves about relegious matters and they teach kids. There is no particular qualification or age. I know couple of young guys in my community who teaches arabic and quran to those who are intrested.
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
I dont see how does this matter. There is no standard practice on this, but i have seen few adults praying alongside kids and vice versa, at ocassions when mosque is full.
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
We have no objections/restrictions in praying in any mosque, however mostly reformists are not allowed in mainstream masjids. Same is the case with relegious functions, however on certain sociorelegious ocassions, people do join each other's functions.
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
There is no restrictions on clothings as normally women/men coming to offer prayers wear decent clothes.
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
Again there is no standard practice. The typical pillbox cap that you are talking about, is worn by many of us. But you would find people wearing different type of caps.
18) Who collects Zakat for you, or every individual distributes as per his own wish.
Zakaat amount is voluntary and each jamaat collects it. Individuals also distribute Zakaat as per thier own wish.
19) In 2009 how much amount was collected from community and how was it disbursed.
All the monies that are collected by individaul jamaats are aacounted and audited. All jamaats publishes its account to members of the community. It is usually disbursed in day today running of jamaat. Besides, it is spent in the welfare of the community via different societies that has been established.
20) How does common people under reform banner access dawat books, who authorizes or is it under a open library where anyone who can read and write can access them.
Yes, all the books which are available either with some individual or where we have established some sort of library are accessible to any one who wish to.
21) What is the official population of Reformists and why is a constant decline and switch over to the mainstream.
Well i dont have exact numbers. but yes, there have been decline in numbers. Tere are plenty of reasons. Few leave because they succumbed to peer pressure, few were lured by establishment , few more just got disenchanted or were not committed enough. You see, its difficult being an open reformist as it involves some kind of hostility, socitey related problems to name a few.
22) What is the number of schools, Madarsa, Hospitals that are run by reformists. Kindly do mention the standard of education and syllabus followed.
Well, there are atleast 2 schools in udaipur, one hospital cum medicare center, one library. Aurangabad jamat has one center. So does malegaon jamaat. In Western world, open reformists are few and scattered, but i beleive they also have established thier centers and doing the best they can.
23) What is the number of people who lead the community services like Prayers, waez, mayyat tawalli. How are they selected and what is the qualification for the same.
Any one who has learned these rituals can do that, there is no qualifications.
24) Places where there are less Reformists and when people die and if the burial is to be done under Main stream dawoodi Bohra kabrastan, is it explicitly told to not keep ruku chitti (to honour the dead person’s wish, as this is what he would have wanted).
Well again it depends in case-to-case basis. In some cases, I have seen people not keeping ruku chitthi as per dead person' wish.In one case ,one guy refuse to bury his mother in bohra graveyard as he was asked to get the raza. He instead buried her in the muslim graveyard.
26) How many Masjids are under Reformists control.
As told before wherever there is reformist population we have established some sort of centers/masjid for prayers etc. You would find deatils of it under reformist jamaat section on this website.
27) A lot of reformists post circulars or instructions from Ejamaat website. Which is accessible through a user ID and password, here user ID being your Ejamaat number, why has the card not been surrendered and requested to delete all the data from the database, as reformists are against this type of data collection which according to them is a intrusion of their personnel space
Well as far as i know, no open reformist would be issued ejamaat card. There are lot of sympthisers to the movement who are in the mainstream and prefers to fight from inside.
28) Do Reformists go to Ziyarats, Kerbala, Hajj, and if they go where do they stay, to a very large extent all the places under main stream dawoodi bohra’s are accessible through Ejamaat card only.
Yes Reformists do go to kerbala and hajj. They stay as the normal ummah stays. Certainly reformist would not be allowed in dawat owned places. Until recently, reformist were not allowed to go for ziyarats. However, few years back, the establishment has relented and allows reformists to go for ziyarats (may be to lure them to mainstream) or something. I dont personally go for ziyarats, hence dotn have whats the current status.
30) Do students and professionals give a miss to their exams or duty on the day of Ashura (10th Moharram).
Again it depends on individual's choice, if some one wants to give a miss to thier office or school on the day of ashura its his/her choice. No one forces any member to do so. As far as exams are concerned, mostly no one misses the exam.
31) Do Reformist man kiss the hand of their Mother in Law and sister in laws. as well as do Reformist women kiss the hand of their Father in law and Brother in laws.
I again dont see any point in this. Its again invidual's choice. Since few people consider them to be non-mehram and dont do it.
I hope you have got answers to you query and you may use them to debate further, or denigrate reformists view or something to that effect. But you would certainly agree to the fact that you can atleast ask questions here, repudiate the answer, laugh on them if you dont like them or just choose to ignore. I dont see that happening in Mainstream under any circumstances for near future, though i stilll remain hopeful...
You would find different answers for your questions, as it would be based on individual's view on them.
However, i feel that your saying that you are sitting on the fence and our answers would make the decision for you to make the move is just another ploy for asking these questions. If i see your question, it is laced with certain kind of contempt against reformist or bohras in general. Besides, i dont think that any one's answer would (for that matter, should) make the decision for you.
Most of your question has already been answered on this board umpteen number of times. I would request you to search the forum for it and for further readings, try and go through the site and you would find lot of things.
Nonetheless, I would try to answer few of your question
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
For all practical purposes, he occupies the office of daiship, however we belive that clergy's (read kothar and the dai's extended family) role should be limited in relegious and spiritual spheres only.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
For us, Mazun is an official serving the dawat, and nothing beyond that.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
These 2 question intend to denigrate either of the practice that general ummah follow, however reformists follows the same azan and namaz as mainstream. You may find few or more (depends on who you find) reformist who might have different thoughts on it
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
There are people who have learned themselves about relegious matters and they teach kids. There is no particular qualification or age. I know couple of young guys in my community who teaches arabic and quran to those who are intrested.
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
I dont see how does this matter. There is no standard practice on this, but i have seen few adults praying alongside kids and vice versa, at ocassions when mosque is full.
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
We have no objections/restrictions in praying in any mosque, however mostly reformists are not allowed in mainstream masjids. Same is the case with relegious functions, however on certain sociorelegious ocassions, people do join each other's functions.
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
There is no restrictions on clothings as normally women/men coming to offer prayers wear decent clothes.
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
Again there is no standard practice. The typical pillbox cap that you are talking about, is worn by many of us. But you would find people wearing different type of caps.
18) Who collects Zakat for you, or every individual distributes as per his own wish.
Zakaat amount is voluntary and each jamaat collects it. Individuals also distribute Zakaat as per thier own wish.
19) In 2009 how much amount was collected from community and how was it disbursed.
All the monies that are collected by individaul jamaats are aacounted and audited. All jamaats publishes its account to members of the community. It is usually disbursed in day today running of jamaat. Besides, it is spent in the welfare of the community via different societies that has been established.
20) How does common people under reform banner access dawat books, who authorizes or is it under a open library where anyone who can read and write can access them.
Yes, all the books which are available either with some individual or where we have established some sort of library are accessible to any one who wish to.
21) What is the official population of Reformists and why is a constant decline and switch over to the mainstream.
Well i dont have exact numbers. but yes, there have been decline in numbers. Tere are plenty of reasons. Few leave because they succumbed to peer pressure, few were lured by establishment , few more just got disenchanted or were not committed enough. You see, its difficult being an open reformist as it involves some kind of hostility, socitey related problems to name a few.
22) What is the number of schools, Madarsa, Hospitals that are run by reformists. Kindly do mention the standard of education and syllabus followed.
Well, there are atleast 2 schools in udaipur, one hospital cum medicare center, one library. Aurangabad jamat has one center. So does malegaon jamaat. In Western world, open reformists are few and scattered, but i beleive they also have established thier centers and doing the best they can.
23) What is the number of people who lead the community services like Prayers, waez, mayyat tawalli. How are they selected and what is the qualification for the same.
Any one who has learned these rituals can do that, there is no qualifications.
24) Places where there are less Reformists and when people die and if the burial is to be done under Main stream dawoodi Bohra kabrastan, is it explicitly told to not keep ruku chitti (to honour the dead person’s wish, as this is what he would have wanted).
Well again it depends in case-to-case basis. In some cases, I have seen people not keeping ruku chitthi as per dead person' wish.In one case ,one guy refuse to bury his mother in bohra graveyard as he was asked to get the raza. He instead buried her in the muslim graveyard.
26) How many Masjids are under Reformists control.
As told before wherever there is reformist population we have established some sort of centers/masjid for prayers etc. You would find deatils of it under reformist jamaat section on this website.
27) A lot of reformists post circulars or instructions from Ejamaat website. Which is accessible through a user ID and password, here user ID being your Ejamaat number, why has the card not been surrendered and requested to delete all the data from the database, as reformists are against this type of data collection which according to them is a intrusion of their personnel space
Well as far as i know, no open reformist would be issued ejamaat card. There are lot of sympthisers to the movement who are in the mainstream and prefers to fight from inside.
28) Do Reformists go to Ziyarats, Kerbala, Hajj, and if they go where do they stay, to a very large extent all the places under main stream dawoodi bohra’s are accessible through Ejamaat card only.
Yes Reformists do go to kerbala and hajj. They stay as the normal ummah stays. Certainly reformist would not be allowed in dawat owned places. Until recently, reformist were not allowed to go for ziyarats. However, few years back, the establishment has relented and allows reformists to go for ziyarats (may be to lure them to mainstream) or something. I dont personally go for ziyarats, hence dotn have whats the current status.
30) Do students and professionals give a miss to their exams or duty on the day of Ashura (10th Moharram).
Again it depends on individual's choice, if some one wants to give a miss to thier office or school on the day of ashura its his/her choice. No one forces any member to do so. As far as exams are concerned, mostly no one misses the exam.
31) Do Reformist man kiss the hand of their Mother in Law and sister in laws. as well as do Reformist women kiss the hand of their Father in law and Brother in laws.
I again dont see any point in this. Its again invidual's choice. Since few people consider them to be non-mehram and dont do it.
I hope you have got answers to you query and you may use them to debate further, or denigrate reformists view or something to that effect. But you would certainly agree to the fact that you can atleast ask questions here, repudiate the answer, laugh on them if you dont like them or just choose to ignore. I dont see that happening in Mainstream under any circumstances for near future, though i stilll remain hopeful...
-
guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Reformists view
afta,
i admire ur guts and efforts in replyin to aqs,most other reformists(so called) here are more concerned about wat others do wrong rather than wat they do right..................
i admire ur guts and efforts in replyin to aqs,most other reformists(so called) here are more concerned about wat others do wrong rather than wat they do right..................
Re: Reformists view
aftabm, thank you for replying to aqs. Your answers are sensible and to the point, just like a true reformist's. This again proves, if proof was needed, that people who are attached to the reform movement and are committed seldom come here riding on high horses and shouting curses and calling dai names. It is generally the frustrated and repressed insiders - the loose canons - who find this free forum as a godsend and come here and explode. No wonder this forum gives the impression of being anti-sayedna. The abdes with their limited calibre come here with a limited agenda: to find hatred and hostility towards sayedna, and that's what they find in abundance and then keep harping about how "reformists" are full of adawat. Of course this is not what reformists are about, but this is the perception the abdes get and we are partly to be blamed for creating this distorted reality. I'm beginning to feel that the wonderful freedom of expression this forum provides could actually be hurting the reformist cause. As the axiom goes, freedom without responsibility is not a good thing.
Aqs, it is good to ask questions, and as aftabm says it's not the answers that will help make up your mind. There are two perspectives from which to look at the Kothar and its doings :
1) From a purely secular perspective it is an authoritarian administration which aims to control every action and behaviour of the individual. If it were a political organisation it would be called fascist. The collection and extortion of money from the community without any accountability is another unacceptable aspect. So on secular grounds alone one should have enough reasons to reject the current system and join the reformists to change it.
2) From the religious - dawoodi bohra faith and history - perspective the current administration is way more egregious and out of line. The various un-islamic practices and the near worship of the dai goes against Islamic principles and dawoodi bohra faith. There's is no religious justification for the Kothar to exist or for the dai to behave like a sultan or to allow kadambosi or allow his family be treated like royalty or... the list goes on. So on religious grounds also one should have enough reasons to reject the current system and join the reformists to change it.
But from your questions it seems you are interested in neither of these perspectives. You are merely looking to leave one "social" club and joining another. Let me assure you, all your "religious" needs in terms of rituals and functions will be met by reformists. If you live in a city where there are not many reformists your "bohra" life can be a little dry and isolated. Being a reformist is not an easy thing. It is not business as usual - that is why people keep opting out. If you have convictions join us but if you are looking for a new comfort zone then don't.
Aqs, it is good to ask questions, and as aftabm says it's not the answers that will help make up your mind. There are two perspectives from which to look at the Kothar and its doings :
1) From a purely secular perspective it is an authoritarian administration which aims to control every action and behaviour of the individual. If it were a political organisation it would be called fascist. The collection and extortion of money from the community without any accountability is another unacceptable aspect. So on secular grounds alone one should have enough reasons to reject the current system and join the reformists to change it.
2) From the religious - dawoodi bohra faith and history - perspective the current administration is way more egregious and out of line. The various un-islamic practices and the near worship of the dai goes against Islamic principles and dawoodi bohra faith. There's is no religious justification for the Kothar to exist or for the dai to behave like a sultan or to allow kadambosi or allow his family be treated like royalty or... the list goes on. So on religious grounds also one should have enough reasons to reject the current system and join the reformists to change it.
But from your questions it seems you are interested in neither of these perspectives. You are merely looking to leave one "social" club and joining another. Let me assure you, all your "religious" needs in terms of rituals and functions will be met by reformists. If you live in a city where there are not many reformists your "bohra" life can be a little dry and isolated. Being a reformist is not an easy thing. It is not business as usual - that is why people keep opting out. If you have convictions join us but if you are looking for a new comfort zone then don't.
Re: Reformists view
crap and nothing but crap after reading this replies i dont think any sane person will ever join this crapy moment,where nothing is at place.
Re: Reformists view
Replay per Dawoodi Bohras Youth, Ismailiya Shia (Fatimia Dawat) faith in red colour below ur queries:
1) What is the take of Reformists on 3 Khalifa’s appointed before Moula Ali (as)
In all the mosques serviced by Bohra Youth Udaipur, especially on Moharram 10th, Progressives categorically and vociferously send lanat on trio
2) How do you revere Aisha (First Khalifa’s daughter) as.
On ground of Gadeer-a-Khum Prophet Mohammed announced enemy of Ali is enemy of Allah, same treatment like above
3) What Is the significance of fight of Jamal (camel) for you. Who was right Moula Ali(as) or Aisha. (if both then y they fought)
Mola Ali was right and Aaisha was wrong
4) How do you take Imam Hassan(as) truce with Muawiya.
Imam Hasan (a.s.) was right and Mawiya was wrong
5) Do you believe that Imam Hussain (as) Shahadat read out by Dawoodi Bohra’s is not true, which are the points of disagreement.
What Dawoodi Bohras read is only true
6) Fatimid Imam’s of Egypt lived in palaces of grandeur as against the practice of Prophet (saw) and Moula Ali(as). What is the take of Reformists on this.
Your knowledge and contention is wrong. All Imams are and were in line per Shariyat a Mohammadi
7) Do you believe in Imam in seclusion or is it a figment of imagination for you.
Imam is in seclusion, but shame on Taher Saifuddin he told in Dargah case (Burhanpur) in court that Imam is fiction and not real!!!! shame on him.
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
Official stand especially in court is Burhanuddin is Dai-a-Mutlaq, ground truth is otherwise.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
India Today magzine had published photos of Mazoon sahib enjoying swiming with the then Miss India Nafisa Ali - this characterless men like characterless Burhanuddin sahib and his family who takes kiss of 'gair-mehram' ladies on their hands and legs are anti-Dawoodi Bohras.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
You have wrong information, Prophet kept his hands straight and Dawoodi Bohras Youth (Progressives) follow suit.
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
Ali name
12) How many pillars of Islam are followed By Reformists 5 or 7. If its 7 whose Walayat.
7 - Mola Ali(a.s.)
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
Sheikh Sajjad Hussain (Ustad of Burhanuddin sahib), Sheikh Abdullah Palanpur Wala, Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj, Sheikh Ali Ahmed, Sheikh Hasan Ali, Sheikh Yaqoob Ali Raj, Mull Saleh Mohammed Baroda Wala, - their pupils
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
After Misaaq
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
Depend on city/village of ur domicile
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
Taher Saifuddin in his book 'Agarul Majlis' wrote that Molatina Salma w/o Prophet Mohammed wore/claded in black color cloth to mark the protest and sadness for Imam Hussain martyr. Burhanuddin ordered that to differentiate between Bohra Youth (Progressives) and Bohra Shabab - Shabab ladies will clad themselves in colorful dresses!!! 25years back every one of Bohras ladies wore black to mark Noharram. Burhanuddin sahib do not hape aptitude to manage religious affairs he has great aptitude only how to make money!
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
Same
You have asked too much, for now I am stopping, later will resume, Inshallah.
1) What is the take of Reformists on 3 Khalifa’s appointed before Moula Ali (as)
In all the mosques serviced by Bohra Youth Udaipur, especially on Moharram 10th, Progressives categorically and vociferously send lanat on trio
2) How do you revere Aisha (First Khalifa’s daughter) as.
On ground of Gadeer-a-Khum Prophet Mohammed announced enemy of Ali is enemy of Allah, same treatment like above
3) What Is the significance of fight of Jamal (camel) for you. Who was right Moula Ali(as) or Aisha. (if both then y they fought)
Mola Ali was right and Aaisha was wrong
4) How do you take Imam Hassan(as) truce with Muawiya.
Imam Hasan (a.s.) was right and Mawiya was wrong
5) Do you believe that Imam Hussain (as) Shahadat read out by Dawoodi Bohra’s is not true, which are the points of disagreement.
What Dawoodi Bohras read is only true
6) Fatimid Imam’s of Egypt lived in palaces of grandeur as against the practice of Prophet (saw) and Moula Ali(as). What is the take of Reformists on this.
Your knowledge and contention is wrong. All Imams are and were in line per Shariyat a Mohammadi
7) Do you believe in Imam in seclusion or is it a figment of imagination for you.
Imam is in seclusion, but shame on Taher Saifuddin he told in Dargah case (Burhanpur) in court that Imam is fiction and not real!!!! shame on him.
) Is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Dai al Mutlaq or Dai al Nazim.
Official stand especially in court is Burhanuddin is Dai-a-Mutlaq, ground truth is otherwise.
9) Do you believe that present Mazun Saheb is a Mazun in zahir only and there is someone else in Batin.
India Today magzine had published photos of Mazoon sahib enjoying swiming with the then Miss India Nafisa Ali - this characterless men like characterless Burhanuddin sahib and his family who takes kiss of 'gair-mehram' ladies on their hands and legs are anti-Dawoodi Bohras.
10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
You have wrong information, Prophet kept his hands straight and Dawoodi Bohras Youth (Progressives) follow suit.
11) Which Azan is used by Reformists, one with Ali’s name or one which was prescribed by second Khalifa
Ali name
12) How many pillars of Islam are followed By Reformists 5 or 7. If its 7 whose Walayat.
7 - Mola Ali(a.s.)
13) Who gives religious education to your kids, what is the qualification of the teacher.
Sheikh Sajjad Hussain (Ustad of Burhanuddin sahib), Sheikh Abdullah Palanpur Wala, Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj, Sheikh Ali Ahmed, Sheikh Hasan Ali, Sheikh Yaqoob Ali Raj, Mull Saleh Mohammed Baroda Wala, - their pupils
14) When does a kid starts to offer Salat (prayer) with elders in the same saf (line). What is the standard practice.
After Misaaq
15) Do you offer prayers or attend any religious functions in mainstream Bohra’s Masjid.
Depend on city/village of ur domicile
16) What does you women wear in the mosque (rida as worn by Main stream Bohra’s or any clothing decent enough)
Taher Saifuddin in his book 'Agarul Majlis' wrote that Molatina Salma w/o Prophet Mohammed wore/claded in black color cloth to mark the protest and sadness for Imam Hussain martyr. Burhanuddin ordered that to differentiate between Bohra Youth (Progressives) and Bohra Shabab - Shabab ladies will clad themselves in colorful dresses!!! 25years back every one of Bohras ladies wore black to mark Noharram. Burhanuddin sahib do not hape aptitude to manage religious affairs he has great aptitude only how to make money!
17) What kind of skull cap is worn by Men under Reform movement, as the cap worn by mainstream Dawoodi bohra’s came into existence in last 60-70 years.
Same
You have asked too much, for now I am stopping, later will resume, Inshallah.
Re: Reformists view
Mubarak bhai,Mubarak wrote: 10) How do you offer prayers. Do you fold your hand as was the practice of Prophet (SAW).
You have wrong information, Prophet kept his hands straight and Dawoodi Bohras Youth (Progressives) follow suit.
Please comment on this:
Rasulullah used to fold his hands in prayer like Sunnis do until today. After the Ghadeer address following the revelation of the ayat 5:67, Rasulullah stopped folding his hands.
The reason for Rasulullah’s address at Ghadeer-e-Khum nominating Ali as his successor was Allah’s command to him in the following ayat:
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِي
"O Messenger, deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message; and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.”(5:67) [Shakir translation]
Upto this point in time Rasulullah used to fold his hands in prayer like Sunnis do until today. After the Ghadeer address ollowing the revelation of the above ayat, Rasulullah stopped folding his hands.
Soon afterwords, the following ayat was revealed:
الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسْلاَمَ دِينًا فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ فِي مَخْمَصَةٍ غَيْرَ مُتَجَانِفٍ لِّإِثْمٍ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
“…This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion…” (5:3) [Shakir translation]
Re: Reformists view
@all,
though few have tried to answer, but none has said that this reply is unanimously followed by all Reformists. kindly let some one of a bit authority from Reform movement to come ahead and answer.
though few have tried to answer, but none has said that this reply is unanimously followed by all Reformists. kindly let some one of a bit authority from Reform movement to come ahead and answer.
-
guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Reformists view
there is no authority in reformist...how can there be when their agenda iotself is no autoritarian rule...freedom to all...nooone will answer you and even if they do ull get different replies only...moreover on this board there are only 1 or 2 reformist most are on middle path some not on either some on the path where they get malai on that particular day...........
Re: Reformists view
aqs, i feel pity for you. The people like you have spent your whole life so looking up to "authority" that you can't understand and accept anything that does not come from an "authority". The replies you got are based on the actual practices of reformists - these are ground realities, it happens every day in their lives. How can a "bit of authority" change the truth of the matter in any way. BTW, every reformist has a bit of authority - we are not slaves - and there's no "the authority". If you don't like the replies or if they do not fit your preconceived notions then say so, don't beat about the bush and make a fool of yourself.aqs wrote:@all,
though few have tried to answer, but none has said that this reply is unanimously followed by all Reformists. kindly let some one of a bit authority from Reform movement to come ahead and answer.
Re: Reformists view
@hamsafar,
oh please save ur pity for your brothers from reformist movement. as it has been the norm of every ummat to look upto haq na saheb, and we have got ONE. you better look for yourself and your ilk.
you talked about my preconceived notions, yes i had one that Reformists are not ONE and they are a loose bunch of rabble rousers who might have got pissed off due to some local administrative misconduct and in their pursuit of justice started abusing Syedna (TUS) himself.
and one more thing i had my doubts but your different answers to religious practices alone have given me a lot of time to ponder upon my decision. Definitely You gave a big push to the other side of the fence. And instead of coming up with some lousy excuse that i was always a one (Abde SYedna), try to come with answers to questions raised by me
oh please save ur pity for your brothers from reformist movement. as it has been the norm of every ummat to look upto haq na saheb, and we have got ONE. you better look for yourself and your ilk.
you talked about my preconceived notions, yes i had one that Reformists are not ONE and they are a loose bunch of rabble rousers who might have got pissed off due to some local administrative misconduct and in their pursuit of justice started abusing Syedna (TUS) himself.
and one more thing i had my doubts but your different answers to religious practices alone have given me a lot of time to ponder upon my decision. Definitely You gave a big push to the other side of the fence. And instead of coming up with some lousy excuse that i was always a one (Abde SYedna), try to come with answers to questions raised by me
Re: Reformists view
Talking of authority - every civilization needs a leader who has the authority and who speak for his followers. A bunch of people with no leader should rather go to jungle and follow jungle rule where there is no single authority and every being is authority in its own.
Re: Reformists view
Leader should be a Guide not a Dictator.
Rasulullah (s.a.) is known as "servar-e or Sarkar-e-Aalam" and Hazrat Ali (a.s.) as "Mola-e-Kainat" meaning "Lord of Universe" - but they never exercised their authority on their umma. They were kind even to their worst enemy, they were accountable to the people, and they always fought in self defense in the way of Allah never to take revenge or make any one obey to them. They never ask their subject to write them as "Slave of the Prophet" or "Slave of Ali" and compel them perform sajda in front of them. All this is beside exemplary simplicity.
Rasulullah (s.a.) is known as "servar-e or Sarkar-e-Aalam" and Hazrat Ali (a.s.) as "Mola-e-Kainat" meaning "Lord of Universe" - but they never exercised their authority on their umma. They were kind even to their worst enemy, they were accountable to the people, and they always fought in self defense in the way of Allah never to take revenge or make any one obey to them. They never ask their subject to write them as "Slave of the Prophet" or "Slave of Ali" and compel them perform sajda in front of them. All this is beside exemplary simplicity.
Re: Reformists view
We used to refer to abdes as the orthos. Orthodoxy is a reputable attitude. However, orthodoxy needs to be challenged continually.
I see that it would be an insult to orthodoxy to call abdes orthos. They are correctly called abdes or slaves.
Abde cannot think for himself. He always looks to a nod from his master. Witness that on this board, no abde is able to engage in any meaningful discussion on a large variety of subjects. When Reformists were asked about their views on Zakaat, they responded in droves. When abdes were asked their views, no one had anything to say. They did not have any knowledge.
Abde cannot even discern what knowledge is. They do not learn and they do not think. They have a guide who can say or do no wrong. They will not open the Quran to verify what their Guide is telling them is correct. So, to prove myself right let us invite abdes to consider what a leader should be as a guide.
Let us start with that we consider Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and Quran is the message from Allah. Would an abde question his guide if it contradicts the Quran? No, that requires knowledge and a discerning mind which an abde lacks. Nonetheless, let us try.
1. Quran commands that we pray five times a day.
2. Sayedna says that we pray five times a day
A. Match. Reformist agrees and Sayedna is redundant unless you cannot or will not read the Quran, like an abde. In any case, there a million guides who will say the same as the Quran
Now another;
3. Quran says 'do not do sajda to anyone except Allah'
4. Sayedna says 'do sajda to me'
B. Violation of Quran. Reformist points out the violation and considers Sayedna's guidance un-Islamic. An abde looks to Sayedna for a sign, does not question him and follows in violation of the Quran, in the full agreement that Sayedna is right.
Leader as a guide? Who checks the guide?
I see that it would be an insult to orthodoxy to call abdes orthos. They are correctly called abdes or slaves.
Abde cannot think for himself. He always looks to a nod from his master. Witness that on this board, no abde is able to engage in any meaningful discussion on a large variety of subjects. When Reformists were asked about their views on Zakaat, they responded in droves. When abdes were asked their views, no one had anything to say. They did not have any knowledge.
Abde cannot even discern what knowledge is. They do not learn and they do not think. They have a guide who can say or do no wrong. They will not open the Quran to verify what their Guide is telling them is correct. So, to prove myself right let us invite abdes to consider what a leader should be as a guide.
Let us start with that we consider Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and Quran is the message from Allah. Would an abde question his guide if it contradicts the Quran? No, that requires knowledge and a discerning mind which an abde lacks. Nonetheless, let us try.
1. Quran commands that we pray five times a day.
2. Sayedna says that we pray five times a day
A. Match. Reformist agrees and Sayedna is redundant unless you cannot or will not read the Quran, like an abde. In any case, there a million guides who will say the same as the Quran
Now another;
3. Quran says 'do not do sajda to anyone except Allah'
4. Sayedna says 'do sajda to me'
B. Violation of Quran. Reformist points out the violation and considers Sayedna's guidance un-Islamic. An abde looks to Sayedna for a sign, does not question him and follows in violation of the Quran, in the full agreement that Sayedna is right.
Leader as a guide? Who checks the guide?
Re: Reformists view
Well said porus. The abdes can't think beyond the Dai and Aqa moula. Their deen starts and ends with him. In recent months many new abdes have joined the forum but only to heckle and create confusion.
aqs, people have answered your questions, I'm not sure what else are you looking for. If still interested, let us know which questions have not been adequately answered. And don't worry about authority. Knowledge does not come with authority. Actually, quite the contrary is true: authority generally eschews knowledge.
If you have made up your mind - which by the way was made up even before you came here - then you're wasting everybody's time.
aqs, people have answered your questions, I'm not sure what else are you looking for. If still interested, let us know which questions have not been adequately answered. And don't worry about authority. Knowledge does not come with authority. Actually, quite the contrary is true: authority generally eschews knowledge.
If you have made up your mind - which by the way was made up even before you came here - then you're wasting everybody's time.
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guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Reformists view
wat r u sayin they have their haq na saheb,,it is asgar,mazoon is insaaf,the fight is for no.3 ..the contenders are az porous.anajmi etc...(the fight is brutal cuz some not much though money is involved)aqs wrote:@hamsafar,
oh please save ur pity for your brothers from reformist movement. as it has been the norm of every ummat to look upto haq na saheb, and we have got ONE. you better look for yourself and your ilk.
you talked about my preconceived notions, yes i had one that Reformists are not ONE and they are a loose bunch of rabble rousers who might have got pissed off due to some local administrative misconduct and in their pursuit of justice started abusing Syedna (TUS) himself.
and one more thing i had my doubts but your different answers to religious practices alone have given me a lot of time to ponder upon my decision. Definitely You gave a big push to the other side of the fence. And instead of coming up with some lousy excuse that i was always a one (Abde SYedna), try to come with answers to questions raised by me