Ijtihad better than Jihad

[ozmujaheed]

Read article and note Ali Asgar Engineer recognized as a respected leader.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/khan08.htm

Mahhallah if Mr Engineer reads this my congratulations and wishes to him for continued success and strength for such effort.

[anajmi]

Muslim militants are sowing seeds of poison and hatred between Muslims and the rest of humanity by committing egregious acts of violence in the name of Islam.

What a load of croc. This guy completely forgets to mention the bombing and destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan by western bombs destruction of their economies and death of millions of innocents, the constant threat to Iran and the permanent imprisonment of the people of Palestine. These white painted muslims are worse than any militant muslims as they give justification to the enemies of Islam to keep killing muslims and stealing their resources.

[Human]

Oz, good article.

anajmi, so according to you people of Iraq and Afghanistan were happy before? What about the treatment of women in those countries. Women absolutely had no rights and were only as good as sex slaves and kid producing factories. Those kid would be taught hatred for the western world and false usage of 'jihad' and will grow up and go on a suicide mission. Are you supporting these things?

[anajmi]

Human,

So according to you, since they were not happy before, it is ok to make their condition worse than before?

[ozmujaheed]

Anajmi your attitude towards west is based on emotive hatred no amount of rationale argument is necessary anymore

[rania]

Anajmi your attitude towards west is based on emotive hatred no amount of rationale argument is necessary anymore

Credit where it is due and I do not want to come off as a bandwagon jumper , but I think anajmi is right on the money regarding his posts in this thread and other threads on the actions of west in this section !

It is you who is apologetic and wants to rewrite history ! So far in this section , you have not put forward any rational argument and take this as constructive criticism from a neutral who is not the biggest fan of anajmi and I think he knows that too !

[anajmi]

oz,

And what is your rationale? They were not happy in any case? They couldn'tve done any better? That is not a rationale. That is an excuse.

[Human]

Human,

So according to you, since they were not happy before, it is ok to make their condition worse than before?

anajmi,

Not quite. Lets take an example of North Korea as it is not invaded by the West (yet). I know its not an islamic country and you wouldn't give rats about it but still a valid example. They've got a dictator (like Saddam for Iraq) and he's investing all the money (whatever they have) in military forces and weaponary and the local people are starving. Now if West attacked them, surely there'll be civil casualties in the war. But looking at the bigger picture, people would have the right to food and the right to good living. Not living under a dictator's rule.

[Human]

rania and anajmi,

Being devout muslims does not mean you are supposed to hate the west with a passion. The religion doesn't require people to do that.

Going to the argument of "they were not happy in any case", is not valid if you consider the bigger picture. Post war era takes some time for the country to re-build and those countries wouldn't have given in totally. There are still notorious guerrilla groups that keep attacking the defence forces (which was why the civilians become casualties in the first place). If all the extremists groups take a chill pill and calm down and let democracy roll in, they would surely be better and would be 'HAPPY' in the future. If not them then their future generations. Countries like South Korea, England, Taiwan etc are very much under American influence/control. However the people there are happy. You can just compare the difference between south korea and north korea as they started in a similar fashion and see where they are at now. Its not hard to tell people of which country are happier. You show me one muslim country where people are happy. Then you might say that people in rich countries like Kuwait, Oman etc are happy. But are they really? Women get lashes for every small mistake. We are living in the 21st century and should not be expected to follow king's orders.

[anajmi]

people would have the right to food and the right to good living.

And Iraq and Afghanistan are a good example of that?

[anajmi]

If all the extremists groups take a chill pill and calm down and let democracy roll in, they would surely be better and would be 'HAPPY' in the future.

If most people had your kind of thinking we would still be living under the Roman Empire or the British Empire. Thank God we are not. There are people out there who still value their freedoms more than their lives. If people think that living under Saddam was better than living under a puppet American regime, then they have a right to believe that and fight for that. Not all people are cowards like some of us who take chill pills and let other's dictate how to live.

[anajmi]

You show me one muslim country where people are happy.

And you have spoken to majority of the people in all the muslim countries? Do you know the conditions that the Iraqis have been living under since the first gulf war under American sanctions? Do you know how many children died because of the sanctions and do you know what the then secretary of state said about the death of these children? Do you know the conditions that the Afghans are living under first under Soviet rule and now under an American puppet? Why am I even arguing with people with blinders on??

[rania]

Oz, good article.

anajmi, so according to you people of Iraq and Afghanistan were happy before? What about the treatment of women in those countries. Women absolutely had no rights and were only as good as sex slaves and kid producing factories. Those kid would be taught hatred for the western world and false usage of 'jihad' and will grow up and go on a suicide mission. Are you supporting these things?

Which women are you talking about ? The ones that were gassed ( Kurds ) by Saddam who was supplied chemical weapons by USA and UK ?

Do not use treatment of women as an excuse for waging war and killing scores of innocents.UK has the highest rate of Teenage Pregnancies.Naive people like you may feel this is a good motive to attack UK to liberate the women there.

I hope you are well updated on the sexual assault figures in USA.Should other nations attack them ?

And do not try to rewrite history ! Women in Afghanistan voted and were taught in schools by Teachers brought in from Europe before the wars .And as for Iraq , read up on the Constitution of Iraq of 1970.It should be an eye opener for you !

Regarding the kids being taught hatred for the western world , you have forgotten these kids are the ones who have lost their fathers , mothers and other relatives because of greed for oil.

[rania]

Human,

So according to you, since they were not happy before, it is ok to make their condition worse than before?

anajmi,

Not quite. Lets take an example of North Korea as it is not invaded by the West (yet). I know its not an islamic country and you wouldn't give rats about it but still a valid example. They've got a dictator (like Saddam for Iraq) and he's investing all the money (whatever they have) in military forces and weaponary and the local people are starving. Now if West attacked them, surely there'll be civil casualties in the war. But looking at the bigger picture, people would have the right to food and the right to good living. Not living under a dictator's rule.

North Korea has one of the most secret societies in the world.How did you derive this information that the people are starving there ? What is the number of people starving there ? Did you hear it from the tabloids who said Iraq could attack UK in 45 mins flat along with the ones who cooked up the lies of WMDs ?

Now on the subject of investment in military forces , you will be surprised to see where America stands against the world !


World $1100 billion
Rest-of-World [all but USA] $500 billion

United States $623 billion
China $65.0 billion

Now to put things into perspective and to really shut you up for good ,

The figures for North Korea are less than Sweden ( WTF ? ) and features 24th on the list ,

Sweden $5.5 billion
North Korea $5.0 billion


Here is the link : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ending.htm

And I assume you are not going to tell everyone that there are no people starving in America ?

[rania]

rania ,

Being devout muslims does not mean you are supposed to hate the west with a passion. The religion doesn't require people to do that.

Just so we are really clear on this , please do not bring illogical comments like above to the table if you are really interested in having a debate !

I live in the West ! Criticizing foreign policies does not mean that I hate the west with a passion and Islam has nothing to do with my views whatsoever !

I million people marched in the streets to protest against the Iraq War.Do they all hate west with a passion ?

More than 50% of the people of Nato Countries like USA and UK think that Iraq and Afghanistan War should have never happened.Do they hate west with a passion ?

[anajmi]

rania,

I am beginning to like you. Very much.

[Fatwa Banker]

Rania,

You are a America hater and that is your prerogative, as long as you don't try to hide behind the "just the foreign policy" bullshit. As long as you are posting numbers, the US military spending is approximate 4% of GDP, and if your North Korean numbers are accurate then they are spending 20% of GDP, with Saudi Arabia and Oman at 10%. If you are going to post numbers, put them in context, absolute numbers by themselves are meaningless. When the Tsunami hits Indonesia or an earthquake hits Haiti I don't see your sorry Wahabis asses with boots on the ground, everyone relies on the US troops and money to lead the effort.

Go live under the Iraqi Constitution of 1970 if you like it so much

[Human]

people would have the right to food and the right to good living.

And Iraq and Afghanistan are a good example of that?

Bigger picture anajmi, things don't happen straightaway. It takes time.

[Human]

If all the extremists groups take a chill pill and calm down and let democracy roll in, they would surely be better and would be 'HAPPY' in the future.

If most people had your kind of thinking we would still be living under the Roman Empire or the British Empire. Thank God we are not. There are people out there who still value their freedoms more than their lives. If people think that living under Saddam was better than living under a puppet American regime, then they have a right to believe that and fight for that. Not all people are cowards like some of us who take chill pills and let other's dictate how to live.

No, not at all. There are better ways than hijacking planes and planting suicide bombers everywhere. You'd have surely heard of Gandhiji and his movement to get independence for India.

[Human]

You show me one muslim country where people are happy.

And you have spoken to majority of the people in all the muslim countries? Do you know the conditions that the Iraqis have been living under since the first gulf war under American sanctions? Do you know how many children died because of the sanctions and do you know what the then secretary of state said about the death of these children? Do you know the conditions that the Afghans are living under first under Soviet rule and now under an American puppet? Why am I even arguing with people with blinders on??

Come on anajmi, you didn't give me a name of the country. I get to speak to many people from different countries especially suffering people in poorer countries, that's the nature of my job. Unfortunately I do not know of any single muslim country where people are happy. Women are treated like third class citizens unfortunately.

[Human]

Which women are you talking about ? The ones that were gassed ( Kurds ) by Saddam who was supplied chemical weapons by USA and UK ?

I'm talking about the general women of Islam who would be already suffering by being one of the four wives of one man or by being a mother of 10 kids. If you think war is the only thing that brings suffering then you're dreaming.

Do not use treatment of women as an excuse for waging war and killing scores of innocents.UK has the highest rate of Teenage Pregnancies.Naive people like you may feel this is a good motive to attack UK to liberate the women there.
I hope you are well updated on the sexual assault figures in USA.Should other nations attack them ?

Your arguments are silly. Teen pregnancies or sexual assaults and you want to wage war? Those countries are taking action against the violence or atleast there are laws to prohibit these. How about islamic countries? They have laws to punish the women savagely and men get their free will. Women are forced to wear burqa and if they don't want to they are subject to torture. Women are subject to torture and are victims or honour killings if they dare wish to pursue marriage with someone from another religion.

Regarding the kids being taught hatred for the western world , you have forgotten these kids are the ones who have lost their fathers , mothers and other relatives because of greed for oil.

So according to you it is okay to teach kids hatred so they turn into terrorists? A friend of mine lost both his parents and his home and business premises in the Gujarat riots. Does that mean he is supposed to go around with a gun and kill the Hindus? Or does that mean he's supposed to teach hatred to his kids so they grow up to be suicide bombers? Your way of thinking is pathetic. With your views, there can never be peace in the world. Luckily that friend of mine is a humanitarian worker too and he believes in forgiving and has forgiven them. By the way he's a sunni muslim living in Bangalore right now. Shame on you for promoting violent views. Because of extremist people like you, the western world creates muslim stereotypes and generalises on every muslim.

[Human]

North Korea has one of the most secret societies in the world.How did you derive this information that the people are starving there ? What is the number of people starving there ? Did you hear it from the tabloids who said Iraq could attack UK in 45 mins flat along with the ones who cooked up the lies of WMDs ?

Now on the subject of investment in military forces , you will be surprised to see where America stands against the world !


World $1100 billion
Rest-of-World [all but USA] $500 billion

United States $623 billion
China $65.0 billion

Now to put things into perspective and to really shut you up for good ,

The figures for North Korea are less than Sweden ( WTF ? ) and features 24th on the list ,

Sweden $5.5 billion
North Korea $5.0 billion


Here is the link : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ending.htm

And I assume you are not going to tell everyone that there are no people starving in America ?

I can only laugh the way you think and compare the military spending of countries without considering their GDP. Fatwa Banker has already given you a fitting reply. It should only take you a search engine like google and a few news websites to find out that people are actually starving in North Korea and they are not a secret society like FreeMasons etc. They are a country and they win gold medals in archery and shooting in Olympics, nothing secret about that. Now lets see your starving people in USA. There is no comparison because the ones you're talking about are the ones you see on the street begging for a dollar. These are the guys who use up the help money provided by the governments buying alcohol and smokes and then complain about no food. Wake up my friend. You should try visiting poorer nations and you'll see what real starvation is. Not being able to buy McDonalds or KFC is not called starvation.

[Human]

Just so we are really clear on this , please do not bring illogical comments like above to the table if you are really interested in having a debate !
I live in the West ! Criticizing foreign policies does not mean that I hate the west with a passion and Islam has nothing to do with my views whatsoever !

It is not illogical rania. It makes perfect sense, think about it. Just so that its the inconvenient and the uncomfortable truth, it doesn't mean it becomes illogical. I have to admit that it is very sad that you live in the West. It is sad on the country you live. Its not so much criticising foreign policies, its more so the supporting of extremists views and terrorism that sums up my original comment.

I million people marched in the streets to protest against the Iraq War.Do they all hate west with a passion ?
More than 50% of the people of Nato Countries like USA and UK think that Iraq and Afghanistan War should have never happened.Do they hate west with a passion ?

No, they do not hate west with a passion. They are more so protesting for humanity reasons and that is very fair. Its more about the false 'jihad' that the terrorist groups do people like you support their views. I'm even wondering how would one protest against those?

[anajmi]

Human,

The worst off Muslim nations today are Iraq and Afghanistan and they are ruled by puppet western regimes. If women are treated like 3rd class citizens and if the Americans are so concerned about them, may be the Americans should bring them here instead of going into their nations and destroying whatever little they have.

[Human]

^
I'm not advocating for America or their political decisions. Of course many of the things America do are unethical and inhumane too. Here, I'm just trying to highlight the problems in muslim countries. I'm a human first and muslim later when it comes to ethics, truth and humanity.

[rania]

Rania,

You are a America hater and that is your prerogative, as long as you don't try to hide behind the "just the foreign policy" bullshit. As long as you are posting numbers, the US military spending is approximate 4% of GDP, and if your North Korean numbers are accurate then they are spending 20% of GDP, with Saudi Arabia and Oman at 10%. If you are going to post numbers, put them in context, absolute numbers by themselves are meaningless. When the Tsunami hits Indonesia or an earthquake hits Haiti I don't see your sorry Wahabis asses with boots on the ground, everyone relies on the US troops and money to lead the effort.

Go live under the Iraqi Constitution of 1970 if you like it so much

Repeating myself for the last time , criticizing actions of a Government doesn't mean that I hate the particular government ! 1 million people on the streets of UK doesn't mean that they are haters of the West !

When the point about Military spending by countries was mentioned and the relation to starving people was mentioned there was no talk about the GDP of the particular nation.GDP is the economic progress of the country and having a good GDP doesn't entitle a country to spend to the tune of 600 Billion on defense.If you are taking the GDP in account , then I suggest you take every economic factor into account like Debt , Budget Deficit and so forth.

Regarding ' your sorry wahabis asses ' , this phrase proved you to be a stereotyping rabble rousing idiot !Sweetie , anyone criticizing the Americans is not a Wahabbi nor does he/she become a sympathizer of Wahabbis as a Default ! Your narrow minded thinking really did made me chuckle !

And on topic of natural disasters and relevant aid efforts , you missed on a certain Hurricane Katrina !

One more thing , you don't understand the concept of AID , it is not just give relationship but it is give and take relationship.It is not an act of humanity like you perceive it to be.The instance of Israel given aid by Americans will help you to educate yourself and people like Human .

[rania]

And you have spoken to majority of the people in all the muslim countries? Do you know the conditions that the Iraqis have been living under since the first gulf war under American sanctions? Do you know how many children died because of the sanctions and do you know what the then secretary of state said about the death of these children? Do you know the conditions that the Afghans are living under first under Soviet rule and now under an American puppet? Why am I even arguing with people with blinders on??

Come on anajmi, you didn't give me a name of the country. I get to speak to many people from different countries especially suffering people in poorer countries, that's the nature of my job. Unfortunately I do not know of any single muslim country where people are happy. Women are treated like third class citizens unfortunately.

Approximately at what number would you put ' Many ' at ? The population of China is more than 1 billion.How many Chinese people you have talked to ?

When you are having a debate on World Affairs , try not to be emotive or a know-it-all chap who has seen every corner of the world and whose mind is closed ! It will help not make an idiot of yourself.To be honest , I am not complaining even if you do !

Out of curiosity , I assume you have visited the Ukrainians , the Poles , The Colombians , the Cubans , the Slums of West London , slums of USA , Aborigines in Australia , Native Americans of America , Tribes of the Amazon , People of Kenya ?

Oh wait they do not fit your stereotype of suffering people in poorer countries.

[rania]

If most people had your kind of thinking we would still be living under the Roman Empire or the British Empire. Thank God we are not. There are people out there who still value their freedoms more than their lives. If people think that living under Saddam was better than living under a puppet American regime, then they have a right to believe that and fight for that. Not all people are cowards like some of us who take chill pills and let other's dictate how to live.

No, not at all. There are better ways than hijacking planes and planting suicide bombers everywhere. You'd have surely heard of Gandhiji and his movement to get independence for India.

Can you please tell us more on the ' hijacking planes ' bit ? Did this take place in Iraq or Afghanistan ?

'Will you please put in a request to Haliburton to give these people the State-Of-Art Weapons to help protect themselves against the Occupiers ?

You believe Gandhi brought independence to India ? I laughed ! Second World War totally screwed up the British Empire or you will tell us there was a Gandhi present in every colony of British Empire ?

You must be the same kind that would call the likes of Bhagat Singh and the ones who fought against the Nazis as ' Terrorists ' , Funnily enough the Indians and the world celebrate their actions.

[rania]

Which women are you talking about ? The ones that were gassed ( Kurds ) by Saddam who was supplied chemical weapons by USA and UK ?

I'm talking about the general women of Islam who would be already suffering by being one of the four wives of one man or by being a mother of 10 kids. If you think war is the only thing that brings suffering then you're dreaming.

Do you mean the ones gassed by the chemical weapons of UK and USA do not fit into your stereotype of women who you think are suffering ?

Have the NATO forces made a law to not have 10 kids ?

The laws of Polygamy have been reformed bringing in more restrictions in cases where the Man may marry another woman.The Kurdish Party is quite opposed to this by using the shield of Islam.

Surely in your view , Islam is a problem then ?

[rania]

Do not use treatment of women as an excuse for waging war and killing scores of innocents.UK has the highest rate of Teenage Pregnancies.Naive people like you may feel this is a good motive to attack UK to liberate the women there.
I hope you are well updated on the sexual assault figures in USA.Should other nations attack them ?

Your arguments are silly. Teen pregnancies or sexual assaults and you want to wage war? Those countries are taking action against the violence or atleast there are laws to prohibit these. How about islamic countries? They have laws to punish the women savagely and men get their free will. Women are forced to wear burqa and if they don't want to they are subject to torture. Women are subject to torture and are victims or honour killings if they dare wish to pursue marriage with someone from another religion.

You can't even comprehend my posts.Forget about debating them !

You think Sexual assaults deserves less attention then women beaten up or being forced to wear burqa ? You are one heck of a humanitarian.

The Islamic country which you are talking about is Saudi Arabia.I keep wondering why don't the NATO countries and sheep like yourself don't attack Saudi Arabia ? Surely you would like to see the oppressed women over there to be liberated ?

The simple fact is these Iraq and Afghanistan wars were not waged to liberate the women.You trying to use ' women ' is pathetic.These same brand of American soldiers who you think want to liberate the Iraqi women were freely raping them or killing them at their mercy.So please do not try to insult my intelligence by suggesting that the war was about the treatment of women and the West's empathy towards the Middle East.

Women get tortured in America and honor killings have happened in America and India as well.Doesn't give the other nations the license to wage a full out war against the innocents.

The same Saddam who was supported by the Americans against Iranians in the 8 year war is the best evidence you will see it has never been about instilling democracy or caring of the people of Iraq.The simple fact that America has waged more wars then any other nation in the last 40 odd years or so and has been overthrowing Democratic Governments right from the start of 50s.

The biggest example is Iran.When the Oil of Iran was nationalized , UK and USA overthrew the democratic government there and installed the Puppet Shah of Iran in its place who made sure the major revenues went to the Oil Companies of UK and USA and the people of Iran remaining impoverished and not being able to take advantage of their own country's national resources.

You want to know why Iraq War happened ? Look no further then the simple fact that Saddam had changed the oil trading currency to Euro from Dollar. And over a period of time , the value of Dollar would have seriously diminished.

I would say , Shame on you for using ' women ' as an excuse to kill Thousands of people.