Important Questions urgent help Out there!

[zak]

[quote="porus"]
Ismailies have their living Imam. Bohras have lost theirs. Thus Bohras have attempted to substitute the Dai in his place in the metaphysical scheme. Thus the Dai becomes the Master of Taawil.

INDEED , the Shia Imami Nizari Ismailis do have a PRESENT and LIVING [ Hazar and Maujood ] Imam who cklaims DIRECT decendency from Prophet , thru Hazrat Ali and Bibi Fatima , leader of the Ismailis . [ref: AKDN.COM} please comment

[freeman]

aqs

Nothing of substance can be learned in any great depth from an open forum like this. This applies to Science, Philosophy, Politics, Religion or any other area of human knowledge. The forum’s value is to provide discussion about what people have learned and provide avenues and triggers for further individual explorations.

Studies of Ismaili metaphysics has continued unabated in the last 100 years primarily due to the efforts of the Ismaili Institute to make available hitherto unpublished material. Progressive Bohras and the Sulaymani Bohras have made their private libraries available to the Ismaili Institute. In this, the Aga Khan displays the true heritage of the Fatemi Imams, like al-Muiz who founded al-Azhar and Hakim bi-Amrillah, who founded Dar al-Hikma. During their times, all were welcome to participate in knowledge creation and acquisition whether they were Muslims, Sunni, Shia, Christians or Jews. In the West, we are now in a similar position and all can participate at whatever knowledge they possess.

No one in the West or the progressive world today believes that any knowledge is the sole property of any group of people. In fact, Bohras are one of the most ignorant people on earth when it comes to the knowledge about their religion. This applies to Amils too.

I appreciate Mubarak’s input. The idea that the first source of all knowledge was Adam Kulli, and that the knowledge has been renewed and re-presented to mankind by successive Prophets, is an idea that can be traced to Yaqub al-Sijistani. The latter, along with another great Ismaili, al-Farabi, created the Ismaili metaphysics which included a hierarchy of Intellect(aql), Soul(Ruh), Lawgiver(Nabi) and Interpreter of Law (Taawil). who is also identified as the wasi. (al-Farabi divides intellect into ten categories from aql-awwal to aashir-e-mudabbir, which he equates to Nabi). In our own age Nabi is Muhammad who brought the Shariat and Interpreter of Taawil is Ali. (This is the reason behind the Prophet saying that he is the City of Knowledge and Ali is its gate).

Both al-Sijistani and al-Farabi were influenced by Neo-Platonism, which they have incorporated in the Ismaili metaphysics.
I think that Mubarak’s error is that he considers the Ismaili Metaphysics as ‘Ultimate Truth’. I consider it as a speculation. Like similar speculative metaphysical structures, such as the Greek and Roman pantheon of Gods and ancient Egyptian religion, Ismaili Metaphysics is a mental construct to make sense of the world.

However we have changed. We put more value in scientific enterprise as a way of making sense of the world.

HI PORUS I m a new member of dis forum n i m highly impress wid ur knowledge is der n e way i can contact u or can u suggest me some readings

[porus]

freeman,

Welcome to the forum.

Most of the information that I have posted here is available freely on the Web. You google 'Ismaili Metaphysics', 'al=Sijistani' etc. For a scholarly introduction to Ismaili Metaphysics, I recommend writings of Farhad Daftary and Paul Walker. However they are not easy reading.

There is hardly any material available about Bohra Metaphysics. It is similar to the Ismaili one but there are significant differences between the two. If you have specific questions, post them here. I or others may be able respond.

[freeman]

freeman,

Welcome to the forum.

Most of the information that I have posted here is available freely on the Web. You google 'Ismaili Metaphysics', 'al=Sijistani' etc. For a scholarly introduction to Ismaili Metaphysics, I recommend writings of Farhad Daftary and Paul Walker. However they are not easy reading.

There is hardly any material available about Bohra Metaphysics. It is similar to the Ismaili one but there are significant differences between the two. If you have specific questions, post them here. I or others may be able respond.

thankr porus i will search on google but is der n e authentic website which u can suggest

[porus]

thankr porus i will search on google but is der n e authentic website which u can suggest

Except for snippets on Ismaili Institute website or some Orthodox Bohra website, there is no site dedicated to this Metaphysics. Ismaili Insitute lists a number of books that they have published. I am afraid you will need to purchase them though.

This site has an article on Ismaili Tawil by Dr Asgarali Engineer which is a good place to start.

[Mubarak]

This site has an article on Ismaili Tawil by Dr Asgarali Engineer which is a good place to start.

There are technical and fundamental errors in Dr. Engineer Asgar Ali writing.

Moreover, Dr. Asgar Ali categorically wrote that amongst all Bohras is the most 'gumraha' sect!!!

Thus, his version is not unbiased and not per authentic Bohras faith.

[Al-Uqul]

freeman,

Welcome to the forum.

Most of the information that I have posted here is available freely on the Web. You google 'Ismaili Metaphysics', 'al=Sijistani' etc. For a scholarly introduction to Ismaili Metaphysics, I recommend writings of Farhad Daftary and Paul Walker. However they are not easy reading.

There is hardly any material available about Bohra Metaphysics. It is similar to the Ismaili one but there are significant differences between the two. If you have specific questions, post them here. I or others may be able respond.

hmm.yeah i ws wondering!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C0z sijistaniAl-sistani) is not bohra dai

the bohra base their metaphysichs from the works of Da3i muayaadh Fi'deen al-shirazi (r.a)

they uphold Wahdat al-Mawjood(wich is scientifically proven)and is most muslim beelif

wheeras the nizari uphold wahdat al Wujud(wich is kufr and shirk that everything is God it was created by ibn al-Arabi of spain considered heretic by most sunnis)

and no the Aqa khan is not a descendant of muhamamd his grandpa was a Twelver shia from Kerman ,iran

[Al-Uqul]

http://www.mostmerciful.com/history-1.htm

this site is from an ex-niazri ismaili but his stuff i would take with a Grain of Salt

as american proverb goes:''eat the fish leave the bone''''

he is giving incredible resources to his claim that agha khan is not a Sayed/alawi

[Al-Uqul]

http://www.harunyahya.com/matrix.php

wahdat al mawjud


and http://harunyahya1.com/matter8.php


matter another name for illusion


there was another site he had but i couldnt find it if i do i will Post inshaallah

[zak]

>>>and no the Aqa khan is not a descendant of muhamamd his grandpa was a Twelver shia from Kerman ,iran<<<

Firstly geographical origin has nothing to do with decendency .....the source of my comment is AKDN.com If you dispute that as He claims , that He is a direct decendent of Prophet pbuh , thru Hazrat Ali and Bibi Fateemah tu zohra , please let me know .

Thanks

[Al-Uqul]

>>>and no the Aqa khan is not a descendant of muhamamd his grandpa was a Twelver shia from Kerman ,iran<<<

Firstly geographical origin has nothing to do with decendency .....the source of my comment is AKDN.com If you dispute that as He claims , that He is a direct decendent of Prophet pbuh , thru Hazrat Ali and Bibi Fateemah tu zohra , please let me know .

Thanks

i know that.there are many iraqi sayeds and irani ones

but agha khan grandpa was paid to become a ismaili imam by the british

he has no Sharif/sayed descendancy what so ever

read the link plz

[Al-Uqul]

Guys can we get back to my original questions?

[Al-Uqul]

most important question for me

do you all beleive there cannot be 2 masoum people at the same time?

i heard this from one article from the Administrater

wouldnt that mean hasan and husayn and fatima and ali sinned when muhamad was alive?

[porus]

most important question for me

do you all beleive there cannot be 2 masoum people at the same time?

i heard this from one article from the Administrater

wouldnt that mean hasan and husayn and fatima and ali sinned when muhamad was alive?

I think that the quote is "That there cannot be two Imams at the same time." It goes on to say that if there were only two people alive on earth, one would be the Imam, as Imam must always be present.

However, we must now change this to say that 'there cannot be two Ismaili Imams at the same time', no two Ithna-ashari Imams at the same time and so on.

[Al-Uqul]

most important question for me

do you all beleive there cannot be 2 masoum people at the same time?

i heard this from one article from the Administrater

wouldnt that mean hasan and husayn and fatima and ali sinned when muhamad was alive?

I think that the quote is "That there cannot be two Imams at the same time." It goes on to say that if there were only two people alive on earth, one would be the Imam, as Imam must always be present.

However, we must now change this to say that 'there cannot be two Ismaili Imams at the same time', no two Ithna-ashari Imams at the same time and so on.

I See ....So why did asghar ali engineer claim two masoum people at the same time?

it was in one of his article about the Da'i and his father taher saifudeen??????

that si tru even masnad ahmad hanbal say the earth must be present with memeber of ahl ul bayt otherwise universe wil ebnd

ill quot e it later enshallah

[Al-Uqul]

''Ismaili Metaphysics, as elaborated by al-Sijistani and his successors, is a post hoc attempt to make sense of Islamic mythical history as it developed following sectarian conflicts amongst early Shia.''''

There Are Three ismaili sects



The Nizari who were from the former brahmin caste and were the Khoja ethnic Group ,live in india,pakistan,afghanistan,tajikistan and 150 countries of the Globe they are about 5-15 million some people say they are over Estimated,





after alamut era theyre imamate Line has been broken multiple times and Split a few times into variuois Sects with the agha khan line surviving today

the foloowers of other lines accepted his line

in fact among the earlier alamut ismailis it was held that the Hasan-i Sabbah's grandson was a ''spiritual'''rather then physichal descendant of Nizar ibn imam al-mustansir Bi'llah

since both al-Hadi ibn Nizar and Al-Nizar were Executed by Ahmad al-Musta'ali billah's Government

and even this lineage was broken when the mongols under Hulagu Khan killed everyone at alamut and the ismailis were left without an imamlike when hassan al-sabbah eshtablished alamut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

theyre metapyshics is wahdat al-wujud a invention al-arabi a sufi shaykh of al-andalus


and theyre du'a'a't are sijistani and Nasir Khusraw who formulated theyre metaphysics

[Al-Uqul]

then You have The Musta3ali they were followers of Ahmad al-musta3ali ibn al-Mustansir billah(a.s) and his Successer Al-Amir bi AhkamAllah(a.s)

they live in India,Pakistan,Yemen and Saudi Arabia aswell as East africa and Europe

they number about 3 Million including all their Branches


they had two Groups al Hafiziyyah wich is extinct ,they followed al-hafiz li dinillah who was al-amir's uncle i beelive

the dais had to say it passed to brother to brother as in case of al-hasani Wa al-Hussein(alayhum al-salam)

Salahudeen al-Ayyubbi a Former Fatimid Minister , the famouis General who Defeated the Crusaders overthrew his lineage and declared the Ayyubbid dynasty in the name of the Abbassids in his friday sermon

thus was the end of the Fatimid dynasty

with its End the Hafizi branch became extinct


then you had the Amiriyyah branch wich became known as the Tayyibiiyah the sulayhid queen of yemen Sayyeda Arwa bint ahmad al-sulayhiya(a.s) upheld the rights of imam tayyib(a.s) who went into seclusion

theyre metaphyisichs is based on that of Al-muayyadh Fi Deen Al-Shirazi(r.a)

and is TOTALLY DIFFERENT then that of the nizari(sijistani and al-farabi)

[Al-Uqul]

the last ismaili sect is the Druze or al-Darooziyah

Druze live in Syria,Lebanon,israel,Palestine and Yemen and number i beleive about 1- 2 million

Druze beleived that imam Husayn Al-Hakim Bi AmrAlla(a.s) went to hiding and is the promised Mahdi

they rejected al-Hakims son and appointed successer Imam ali al-Zahir Li Zaz dinillah (a.s)and they in one of their Diaries claim that the Fatimid army of Imam Al-Zahir li Zaaz dinillah(a.s) massacred them in Syria and modern day southern Turkey wich was Fatimid Territorry


They are a whole set of beleifs diffrent from islam even though some of Druzes consider themselves muslim,they forbid conversion(though they allowe dit they forbid it because of Danger and Persecution issues) and beleive in re-incarnation

Druze are secretive like the nusayriya 12ers

The Druzes have no imams or Dais Left but rather a spiritual Sheikhdom/Preisthood known as the Uqul(the Wise Ones)

The Uqul Can be Women or men learned in druze doctrine

and to the exception of the Scarce information they share with us through the internet noone knows exactly what Druze beleive except a few things like they Pray to imam al-Hakim Bi amrallah (a.s)and consider him to be the first Druze

there is a Myth al-hakim Ws insane and upheld he was allah,but recent research ahs proven he Punished whoever did that,and invited Al-kirmani a Da'i to refute Druze aqidah on official bases

Nasibi Sunni historians such as Al-Antaki who lived all the way in Iran made this Up

numerouis Sijjilat have have been Preserved prove he was a Capable and Magnificent Ruler Loved by his Subjects

Druze Beleive the Imams Hasan,Husayn ,Zayn al abideen,Baqir ,al-Sadiq down to Al-hakim Were all God on Earth and Re-incarnates of ali ibn Abu Talib who Druze beleive is God on Earth


From personal Experience Darooziyah are Cool people and did alot like they Created The state of Lebanon but they Are Silent like a Mouse if You ask them anything on Religion ,i tried Really Scary..........


here is discusson about theninsanity of imam al-hakim

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=104798

[Al-Uqul]

Thus these Three,Musta3ali,Nizari,and Druzes Are ismaili in Name and have basically nothing in common with each other except theyre common Fatimid heritage and they carry the name ismaili for themselves


But they are 3 diffrent religions basically

the Bohra are most close to Fatimid Tradition and uphold sharia

while the nizari abandoned Fatimid Sharia on'''' the Day of Qiyamah''when theyre imam ala zikrihi salam(to his mentioning be Peace)



(yup they dont know his name even)


declared Shariah void during Ramadhan in a large gathering of nizariyah from around the wolrd


The Da'i Hasan al-Sabbah was Something he killed his son for Drinking alcohol Unlike the Agha Khan Whose Hotels Serve Alcohol.................




so please dont compare the Three and call us cousins when this is like comparing oranges with Apples!!!!!!!!!!!

[porus]

so please dont compare the Three and call us cousins when this is like comparing oranges with Apples!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for reviewing history. My reading confirms what you wrote and I totally agree with your conclusions.

Comparing is useful in the sense that one can make a sense of evolution of Ismaili metaphysics in different subsects as they have common origin. I would add that Dai Hamiduddin Kirmaini was a major influence in the way Bohras evolved their Metaphysics.

[Al-Uqul]

so please dont compare the Three and call us cousins when this is like comparing oranges with Apples!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for reviewing history. My reading confirms what you wrote and I totally agree with your conclusions.

Comparing is useful in the sense that one can make a sense of evolution of Ismaili metaphysics in different subsects as they have common origin. I would add that Dai Hamiduddin Kirmaini was a major influence in the way Bohras evolved their Metaphysics.

do Bohras beilive in a Apocoptylical period or Dajjal -anti-chtist system before Judgement Day?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of8udqXbUT4&feature=fvst The Arrivals pt.49 (The Arrival of the Dajjal)
Actuelly this group has evidence pertraining to the hadiths that it is the period of dajjal right now.

[Al-Uqul]

so please dont compare the Three and call us cousins when this is like comparing oranges with Apples!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for reviewing history. My reading confirms what you wrote and I totally agree with your conclusions.

Comparing is useful in the sense that one can make a sense of evolution of Ismaili metaphysics in different subsects as they have common origin. I would add that Dai Hamiduddin Kirmaini was a major influence in the way Bohras evolved their Metaphysics.

yes but hamidudeen al-kirmani (r.a)was a servant of imam al-Hakem(a.s),Qadhi numan(r.a) of imam mansoor (a.s)and al-mu'izz (a.s)whereas both Al-sijistani and Al-Nasir al-Khusraw of the agha khani''s NEVER met any single ismaili imam........

its from their own website http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?C ... anchor24_7 and http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106542

[Al-Uqul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YelRGLX4 ... re=related

Jesus did indeed Die!mustaalis are right!





Salli ala muhamamd wa aali muhamad

i think This Religon is Truer then i Expected!

[Al-Uqul]

Bohras believes: all born will die. Prophet Eesa (a.s.) lived his life and died.

The Quran 4:157-158 states that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified but Allah raised him into Himself (rafa'a'hu Allah ilayhi).

This is a bit mysterious. It could mean that he died.

it means he was Raised in honoor,not a physchical Resseruction.