Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

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humble_servant_us
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#241

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:36 am

Have you seen this Imam? Has he been teaching anything to you?
Is vision the only criteria to believe in something.
Yeah I know there is a science of hadis and what it is called. Is that the best you answer you could come up with for my question? "I have no clue" would've been a more honest answer!!
This is still a honest answer, that there is a science of hadis which separates true hadis from the false. Using this science false claims could be negated

Muslim First
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#242

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:18 am

So who is your Imam? What is his name? Where does he live? If he is hiding then why?
Our imam is the one who will establish justice and equality on the earth which will be filled with injustice and tyranny. He is alive and his guidance reaches us similar to the sun's rays which reach us when covered with clouds. By the will of allah(swt) he is in Occultation.
If his guidance reaches us similar to the sun's rays which reach us when covered with clouds. Why his representative (Dai) is screwing (sorry to use this word) you guys royally? If his guidance reaches you and other shias why are shias not most just and god fearing community?
It is hard not to follow clear direction from Prophet SAW.
It is easy to follow clear direction from the prophet(pbuh), that is what we are doing. He said- "Whomsoever I am the master Ali(As) is his master" .
"Whomsoever I am the master Ali(As) is his master"
Really? Looking at shia world it seems Ali's guidance is ignored just as rest of Muslim Ummah.

It seems Shia would be more rightous since they have a Master annoited by Prophet SAW and also receiving Guidance from invisible Imaam but that is not a fact and there is no difference between them and rest of Ummah.
You mean to say Majority of Sahabas were dumb!!
Some were actually very intelligent to twist and fabricate the hadis of prophet(pbuh).
That is sweeping accusation can you give one example?

I can give one example right away, one about "Whomsoever I am the master Ali(As) is his master"

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#243

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:09 am

humble servant
Is vision the only criteria to believe in something.
In other words, you have no clue. Imam has to be present on earth. But he can be unseen? Can you show me where your scientifically authentic hadis talk about faith in unseen Imams?
This is still a honest answer, that there is a science of hadis which separates true hadis from the false. Using this science false claims could be negated
Let me repeat my original question.

You won't find hidden Imams or Dais or anything related to Imamat in any teachings of any of the first five shia ahlul bayt. Can you show us how you determined this through your "stringent" ways?

I am asking you specifically about Imams and Dais from the teachings of the first five shia ahlul bayt.

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#244

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:34 am

Where is Shaytan. How does he misguide you. Why do you curse him when you do something wrong. If you can believe in existence of Shaytan a source of misguidance, why not believe in a Imam who is a source of Guidance
The existence of shaytan is not a matter of debate because his existence and his misguidance are clearly mentioned in the Quran. Unseen Imams and Dais are not mentioned in the Quran are they? If I were to go by your logic, I will have to believe in hobbits and elves as well!!

humble_servant_us
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#245

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:37 am

If his guidance reaches us similar to the sun's rays which reach us when covered with clouds. Why his representative (Dai) is screwing (sorry to use this word) you guys royally? If his guidance reaches you and other shias why are shias not most just and god fearing community?
Allah(swt)'s infinite mercy reaches everyone on the earth but still People create mischief, that doesn't negate the existence of Allah(Swt)'s mercy
Really? Looking at shia world it seems Ali's guidance is ignored just as rest of Muslim Ummah.
You are correct. Had muslims followed the footsteps of Ali(as), this world would have been a much better place. the small period of Ali(As) khilafat is an example of the same
It seems Shia would be more rightous since they have a Master annoited by Prophet SAW and also receiving Guidance from invisible Imaam but that is not a fact and there is no difference between them and rest of Ummah.
You have hit the hammer on the nail. Atleast you have a thought that righteousness is associated with following a Master appointed by the prophet(pbuh)
Some were actually very intelligent to twist and fabricate the hadis of prophet(pbuh).
That is sweeping accusation can you give one example?
Prophet(pbuh) said I leave behind two things, quran and ahlulbait...., some sahabi said hasbe-kitabullah (quran is sufficient). This is one of the cause of most of the miseries of muslims.
I can give one example right away, one about "Whomsoever I am the master Ali(As) is his master"
If you deny event of ghadeer and hadis of mankunto, then probably you should throw out every hadis because the event of ghadeer is the most well documented event by both shias and sunnis

The existence of shaytan is not a matter of debate because his existence and his misguidance are clearly mentioned in the Quran. Unseen Imams and Dais are not mentioned in the Quran are they? If I were to go by your logic, I will have to believe in hobbits and elves as well!!
The issue is not on the debate of shaytan's existence but it was used to explain the rationale of existence of someone who is not seen.

humble_servant_us
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#246

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:38 am

In other words, you have no clue. Imam has to be present on earth. But he can be unseen? Can you show me where your scientifically authentic hadis talk about faith in unseen Imams?
-----
I am asking you specifically about Imams and Dais from the teachings of the first five shia ahlul bayt.
This is not a question which can be answered in one liner. If you are sincere in understanding shiites, please read shia literature on this. One of the links for you.
http://home.swipnet.se/islam/almahdi.htm

Muslim First
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#247

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:56 am

bR hsu
Nobody denies Ghadur event it is just how majority sees it.
Events after Ghadir proves that Hz Ali did not gain Mo 2 status after being called Maula,
Please read this

Hadith of Ghadir Khumm [A Sunni Perspective]
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/rebut ... adir-khumm

Muslim First
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#248

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:08 am

Prophet(pbuh) said I leave behind two things, quran and ahlulbait...., some sahabi said hasbe-kitabullah (quran is sufficient). This is one of the cause of most of the miseries of muslims
What is more relevent. Hadit of Quran and ahlubait or Quran and Sunnah. Ahlubait is not here except Aga Khan and who would take religious direction from hom.

Please read this

Hadith About the Quran and Sunnah
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/rebut ... and-sunnah

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#249

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:44 am

humble servant,
The issue is not on the debate of shaytan's existence but it was used to explain the rationale of existence of someone who is not seen.
Do you believe in hobbits and elves? They too are unseen, except in the head of someone!!

Let me explain again. There is no need to believe in unseen Imams and Dais as there is no evidence supporting them in the Quran.
This is not a question which can be answered in one liner. If you are sincere in understanding shiites, please read shia literature on this. One of the links for you.
I have read a lot of shia literature and a lot of links and short of asking me to believe in hobbits and elves, they give nothing new. So I am asking you one more time, is there any hadis from any of the first 5 shia ahlul bayt supporting hidden Imams and their required presence on earth? Just give me the hadis and do not worry about explaining it. Just tell me which hadis makes you believe in this!!

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#250

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:10 am

humble servant,

I did go through the first two sections of the link you posted. I want to mention one point regarding the chapter "How was this long life granted to al-Mahdi?". In the entire chapter, the author tries to explain why it is scientifically possible to have a person who is a thousand years old, but doesn't give any evidence of such a being from the Quran or the Sunnah. If he had this evidence, this should've been the very first line in this chapter. What he mentions is,

Why then should we accept Noah, who must have reached a thousand years at least, and yet reject al-Mahdi?

huh!!. That would mean we would have to accept the exitence of Ashwatthama, who has been living for thousands of years according to Hindu Mythology, as well.

porus
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#251

Unread post by porus » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:35 am

anajmi, MF,

We have been round this loop of Shia-Sunni quarrels many times over the last 10 years. I suggest you stick to Quran and Sunnah as you understand them and let others, like the Shia, stick to their versions of the Quran and Sunnah.

Do you remember some years ago Pope made a speech in which he quoted a Byzantine Emperor's unflattering remarks about the Prophet and Muslims? Among many responses of Muslims was to say that the Bible is corrupted and is superseded by the Quran. Their proof was that 'Quran says so'. Christians and Jews plainly do not accept that. That is where it stands.

Similarly, the Shia/Sunni divide is not going to be bridged. Neither side is going to accept the 'truth' of the other side. Sunnis should concentrate on the Muslim heresies of Wahhabis and Bohras should concentrate on heresies in the teachings of Ahlul Bayt, as they understand the term.

Regarding hidden Imam, I quote from one of the speeches of Ali ibn Abi Talib. This will be rejected by the Sunnis as being a fabrication just like Muslims believe that the current Bible has fabrications incorporated within it, and just like the Christians and Jews believe Quran to be a fabrication.

"O people! Remember that the present time is the time when something which has been promised will happen and events which you do cannot foresee or forecast will take place. During the trials and temptation, those who recognize the worth of the family of the Prophet will, like people walking in the dark with lamps in their hand, not only go safely through the times but will be of help to others and will act like pious people. This will continue until the true Imam of the time will clear the doubts created by heresy and schism, will free people from oppression and tyranny, will educate ill-informed and the ignorant, will introduce reforms in the society, and will cement the gaps which wickedness and impiety may have created in the true teachings of Islam. For some time he will be hidden from the eyes of the people in such a way that the greatest searcher of the day will not be able to find a trace of him, however exhaustive the search. But when he appears, he will educate people in such a way that human vision will expand through the teachings of the Quran, people will be able to acquire true wisdom, and their minds will be able to rise to higher planes of science and philosophy."

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#252

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:54 am

porus,

I do not reject this speech of Hazrat Ali. Infact it simply confirms my understanding that the hidden Imam doesn't provide guidance from hiding. Someday, he will reveal himself and then guide mankind. Besides, when Hazrat Ali says - "For some time he will be hidden from the eyes of the people" doesn't necessarily mean that he is alive today and hiding, and has been for a thousand years and will be for a thousand more till the time comes for him to reveal himself. I think it simply means that he will be hidden like Musa (as) was hidden till it was time for him to reveal himself.

By the way, can you tell me where you found this speech of Hazrat Ali?

Muslim First
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#253

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:21 pm

For some time he will be hidden from the eyes of the people in such a way that the greatest searcher of the day will not be able to find a trace of him, however exhaustive the search.
Br Porus

I am also sure there is a speech by Hz Ali predicting number of Imamas plying hide and seek with different groups of Shias.

humble_servant_us
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#254

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:39 am

"For some time he will be hidden from the eyes of the people" doesn't necessarily mean that he is alive today and hiding, and has been for a thousand years and will be for a thousand more till the time comes for him to reveal himself. I think it simply means that he will be hidden like Musa (as) was hidden till it was time for him to reveal himself.
Something which does not exist cannot be concealed or hid from eyes because by its nature of non-existence it is not visible.
But when we talk about something hidden from eyes, it means it exists but not visible

Since porus has already quoted from Ali(as), i need not add any more hadis to it. By the way here is one sample from sunni source,

The Prophet(SAW) said:

Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my family and just before the day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression.
(Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, P. 99)

humble_servant_us
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#255

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:52 am

I am also sure there is a speech by Hz Ali predicting number of Imamas plying hide and seek with different groups of Shias.
Just some out of many

Sahih Bukhari:-# ^ Sahih Bukhari 89.329
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."


Sahih Muslim -# ^ Sahih Muslim : Book 020: Number 4477, 4478, 4480, 4481, 4482, 4483
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."[2]

Sunan Abu Dawood :# ^ Sunan Abu Dawood : Book 36: Number 4266
The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh." [3]

Sunan al-Tirmidhi : # ^ Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic) Chapter of Fitan,
2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)
Hadith #2149 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)
The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh." [4]

Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal # ^ Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 1, pg 398
Masrooq relates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel"" [5]


Please list the 12 caliphs (not tyrants please)

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#256

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:33 am

humble servant,

The Imam will come out when it is time. He is not guiding anyone from hiding. If he were, he wouldn't have to come out to eradicate tyranny. Obviously, his guidance from hiding is not working very well!!

Besides Hazrat Ali says he will be hidden For some time and not for hundreds of years. Do you know what "some time" means in normal language?

By the way, do you know from what source porus produced the speech? When I asked him, he ran away.

Muslim First
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#257

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:46 am

humble servant,

Hadith of the Twelve Caliphs [A Sunni Perspective]
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/rebuttals/12-caliphs

porus
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#258

Unread post by porus » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:49 am

anajmi wrote: By the way, do you know from what source porus produced the speech? When I asked him, he ran away.
The speech is reproduced in "Textual Sources for the study of Islam". Look up page 135. Here is a link for the book's description.

http://www.amazon.com/Textual-Sources-S ... 729&sr=8-4

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#259

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:52 am

Yes, I managed to do that much research to figure that out. But the book doesn't mention the source of this speech, or at least in the portions of it that I read online. Although I haven't done extensive research, my preliminary search in nahjul balagha didn't show this speech. Nahjul Balagha is supposed to be the best source for the sermons and letters of Hazrat Ali.

porus
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#260

Unread post by porus » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:00 am

anajmi wrote:Yes, I managed to do that much research to figure that out. But the book doesn't mention the source of this speech, or at least in the portions of it that I read online.
The source is mentioned on page 202 in the Bibliography which starts on page 199.

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#261

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:09 pm

porus,

Are you giving me the traditional shia runaround? What is the source of the speech? It is a simple enough question. Is this book referring to another book as its source?

humble_servant_us
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#262

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:04 am

The Imam will come out when it is time. He is not guiding anyone from hiding. If he were, he wouldn't have to come out to eradicate tyranny. Obviously, his guidance from hiding is not working very well!!
Good atleast you agree there will be a Imam who will come out when it is time. This is sufficient to prove you accept that imamat as a Divinely appointed post because he will come out not by his own but by will of Allah(Swt). If you agree on this why not agree on Ali(as) as a divinely appointed imam.
Besides Hazrat Ali says he will be hidden For some time and not for hundreds of years. Do you know what "some time" means in normal language?
In the context of time of earth, some time could be even a million years. Here we are just talking about 100 of years.

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#263

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:34 am

humble servant,

People who believe in hidden Imams guiding them, are idol worshippers. Unless of course like the shaytan, Imam is also a jinn!!

incredible
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#264

Unread post by incredible » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:47 am

no shia worships Imam and he is very much human like muhammed (saw),worshiper of abu bakar usmaan and umar who are nothing but idols shud keep mouth shut while discussing holy Imammain(s)

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#265

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:05 am

no sunni worships Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman. You won't find any Sunni claiming that they are hiding and guiding them from their hiding places. Shias, of course, do believe in hidden superhuman Imams. So, shia are idol worshippers of the Imam.

Consider this, the shia consider Imam guiding them from hiding.
The shia consider the Imam to be omnipresent. They consider the Imam to be all hearing. He can hear people in Japan and in Europe at the same time (without the phone or the internet, unless he is running a help site from his hiding spot). They consider him to be forever living. What this means is that they have attributed Allah's qualities to the Imam. Hence the shia have turned into idol worshippers of the Imam.

humble_servant_us
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#266

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:31 am

People who believe in hidden Imams guiding them, are idol worshippers. Unless of course like the shaytan, Imam is also a jinn
Wrong things if shouted out loudly doesn't make it right. For shias, Imam is a creation of Allah(swt), so basically a creator and creation cannot be compared. What makes prophet(pbuh) different from other human beings is that he was the chosen one from Allah(swt), likewise imams are also chosen creation of Allah(swt). Shias give due acknowledgment to their status which other muslims do not , hence it makes them feel that shias worship them.
They consider him to be forever living. What this means is that they have attributed Allah's qualities to the Imam.
This is a false allegation. Imam is not going to live forever. He has only been given a longer life which is scientifically possible. Allah(swt) has many qualities, for eg if he is Merciful, any human can have this quality which doesn't mean he is Allah(swt). Humans can have attributes of Allah(swt) but the distinction is humans having attributes in its finite sense while Allah(swt) possesses them in infinite quanta.

It is OK , you may not believe in living Imam, his guidance but you will have to agree that there is a chosen Guide who will come at the end of time(Promised Mehdi). Belief in a chosen guide means that islam the concept of chosen guide (imam) exist and is not mocked up story as muslims accuse shias of.

Muslim First
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#267

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:49 am

likewise imams are also chosen creation of Allah(swt).
Any proof in Qur'an? Show mw a single Aya which says there will be chosen people called Imams after Prophet SAW.
Why most important aspect of Islam after Prophethood is not mentioned in Qur'an?

anajmi
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#268

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:13 am

humble servant,

Even the corrupt Dai is a chosen creation of Allah. That is neither here nor there. Everything is a creation of Allah, except idols. Idols are created by humans. The pagans of Mecca presented a similar argument that the idols that they had created were not Allah but a means to approach Allah.

incredible
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#269

Unread post by incredible » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:50 am

Muslim First wrote:
likewise imams are also chosen creation of Allah(swt).
Any proof in Qur'an? Show mw a single Aya which says there will be chosen people called Imams after Prophet SAW.
Why most important aspect of Islam after Prophethood is not mentioned in Qur'an?

i can understand u are on life support system but i dont think ur brain is already dead coz u keep repeating stuff,i already mentioned before that even how to pray namaz is not mentioned in namaz,so we follow the sunnah on Muhammed(saw),rasullah use to lift hasan and hussain on his shoulders to show world that they and there progeny gonna be imam till rest of life on this word.

Muslim First
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Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#270

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:22 pm

Incredible
AS

Even though exact method of Namaaz is not in Quran, Namaaz is mentioned more then 90 time. Wadhu sitting standing etc etc is mentiond, Times of prayers and number of prayers (5) is mentioned. Now how come most important aspect of shia belief in not mentioned even once:

Comeon smarty take this challange.

The Quran Challenge
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... -challenge

The Quran Challenge, Part II
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-2

The Quran Challenge, Part III
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-3

The Quran Challenge, Part IV
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-4

If you do not have brains to respond at least read it.