ya sayyida_sh-shuhadaa:i

[aqs]

During my visit to Mecca, the local amil gave waaz in Arabic language to suit the yemeni bohras who do not speak lasan E dawat. There is no yard stick as such.... I agree with brother oma.. Amil should use the local language in order to engage young/old bohras. Otherwise people are just sitting there and playing with your mobile phone.

Agreed,
when Dawat can adapt to gujarati from Arabic to propagate then might be english is not far away.

[profastian]

During my visit to Mecca, the local amil gave waaz in Arabic language to suit the yemeni bohras who do not speak lasan E dawat. There is no yard stick as such.... I agree with brother oma.. Amil should use the local language in order to engage young/old bohras. Otherwise people are just sitting there and playing with your mobile phone.

Agreed,
when Dawat can adapt to gujarati from Arabic to propagate then might be english is not far away.

I don't think any old language would do. The reason for choosing Gujrati was not only because a number of bohra spoke and understood it but also because it was capable of expressing the tenets of faith (as it contains a strong Arabic flavor).

[Conscíous]

Agreed,
when Dawat can adapt to gujarati from Arabic to propagate then might be english is not far away.

I don't think any old language would do. The reason for choosing Gujrati was not only because a number of bohra spoke and understood it but also because it was capable of expressing the tenets of faith (as it contains a strong Arabic flavor).

"AA SU CHE" ... gujrati is such a funny language.. everything is CHE....hehe and why does syedna saheb have a tone of a child, when he is giving speech to his slaves??

[S. Insaf]

The credit of "ya sayyida_sh-shuhadaa:i" should be given to the poetic genius and scholarship in Arabic language of late Shaikh Ali Husain Saheb, the ustad of Jamiyah Saifia- Surat who composed it for late Syedna Saheb.
He had told me this in a personal meeting and when I checked it later, the statement/claim was supported by Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj and his brother Shaikh Yaqoob Ali saheban at Udaipur.

[aziz]

my sources at badri mahal(m khuzema something) tell me that its asger engineer who wrote ya sayidas shohoda
marsiya,as he is a islamic scholar,now insaap tell us its somebody else ,this is shirk against engineer,
mr (reknowned) islamic scholar is is hopping mad at his loyal lucifer for giving credit to someone else,
insaap will now provide proof of his stupid stupid allegations by providing originals of the marsiya which were given to him by the so called ustaads to escape his bosses anger on this forum within one or two days or else engineer will demote him from lucifers post

[porus]

The credit of "ya sayyida_sh-shuhadaa:i" should be given to the poetic genius and scholarship in Arabic language of late Shaikh Ali Husain Saheb, the ustad of Jamiyah Saifia- Surat who composed it for late Syedna Saheb.

He had told me this in a personal meeting and when I checked it later, the statement/claim was supported by Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj and his brother Shaikh Yaqoob Ali saheban at Udaipur.

I had previously heard of this attribution but I believe that this is the first time I have heard of a personal testimony. Further corroboration of the story by others would increase its credibility. I also wonder about the authorship of “fulku_l-Husaini bi-karbalaa:i”, which was putatively composed by Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin. That marthiya is a very recent composition and, generally, this type of 'creative' works are written by people in their prime of life.

We have been made aware that Sayedna Taher Saifuddin has written several 'risala' each of which omits a letter of Arabic alphabet completely. I have also attended sabaks where they were discussed although I have personally not read any of them nor do I have a copies. However, it would be quite a feat writing an entire risala without Alif or Nun or Ta. Imagine writing philosophical essay in English without the letter 'e'!

Of course, it is not unknown for devotees to compose works which they attribute to their masters. A well-known example is a mystical interpretation of ayat 35 of Surat an-Noor (24:35) which is claimed to be written by the Aga Khan and is published in books and internet forums. However, some Ismailies have claimed that it was authored by one of his followers. I had read the name of the author who had publicly claimed it for himself but I cannot now lay my hands on it.

[S. Insaf]

Friends,
I have received a copy of the misaq in Lisan-e-Dawat. Since it say it is for the Imam and Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb I assume it must be the latest version. Please see the copy of last two pages posted here. Anyone interested in translating it in English please write to me at sinsaf@yahoo.com and I will send you a copy.

[labbaikyaHussain]

porus will be the correct person for next venture

[Biradar]

The credit of "ya sayyida_sh-shuhadaa:i" should be given to the poetic genius and scholarship in Arabic language of late Shaikh Ali Husain Saheb, the ustad of Jamiyah Saifia- Surat who composed it for late Syedna Saheb.
He had told me this in a personal meeting and when I checked it later, the statement/claim was supported by Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj and his brother Shaikh Yaqoob Ali saheban at Udaipur.

This is a rather ridiculous claim. Why is so hard to believe that S. Taher Saif al-din wrote this piece? I am sure he and S. Mohammad Burhan al-din are both accomplished Arabic scholars and could have written these pieces. It is not enough for someone to claim they wrote it: they could be lying to get the credit and cast aspersions on the real author. We should not believe any such claim without skepticism. It reduces the credibility of the person making it and the person spreading it.

[Biradar]

Friends,
I have received a copy of the misaq in Lisan-e-Dawat. Since it say it is for the Imam and Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb I assume it must be the latest version. Please see the copy of last two pages posted here. Anyone interested in translating it in English please write to me at sinsaf@yahoo.com and I will send you a copy.

Can't you just upload (or have the Admin do it) the scanned copy on this site? Then a number of people could help with the translation.

[accountability]

I am sure he and S. Mohammad Burhan al-din are both accomplished Arabic scholars and could have written these pieces.

Let me tell you one of my experience, it was in 1999, when syedna saheb was to inaugrate zarih in jordan, when syedna saheb was inaugrating zarih, there were some jordanian officials present, not king abdulllah, syedna saheb was reading from a written speech in arabic, but when syedna saheb was conversing with those officials, it was through interpretor. Syedna saheb would talk to some one and then he would convey it to jordanians and like wise.

[Biradar]

Let me tell you one of my experience, it was in 1999, when syedna saheb was to inaugrate zarih in jordan, when syedna saheb was inaugrating zarih, there were some jordanian officials present, not king abdulllah, syedna saheb was reading from a written speech in arabic, but when syedna saheb was conversing with those officials, it was through interpretor. Syedna saheb would talk to some one and then he would convey it to jordanians and like wise.

This does not prove anything. The sayedna has produced copious amounts of Arabic writings and it would be hard to pull it off consistently for so many years. Every Ramadan he writes the "munajat" which itself is a genre in which one beseeches god for blessings and asks him questions. Translations in gujrathi are also provided.

Having an interpreter is not unusual, people in his position use interpreters in many situations to avoid mis-understanding. It also gives a buffer between him and the person he is conversing with. Note that I am not defending the Sayedna, just pointing out the absurdity of the claim that he or his father could not have written what they claim to have written.

The Sayedna is also a highly accomplished orator. The progressives should not be under the assumption that the only reason bohras love his because they are afraid. That is absurd. If you pay attention to his lectures they are often highly learned. It is another thing most people do not understand, but the subject matter is complex and not something that can be understood easily.

[SBM]

S. Mohammad Burhan al-din are both accomplished Arabic scholars

On many of the photos posted on Malumaat and Mumineen.org when Syedna is in the company of Arab dignitaries, he always has an interpreter present. Can you please provide some Arabic/Islamic Scholarly work done by current Syedna?

[Biradar]

Friends,
I have received a copy of the misaq in Lisan-e-Dawat. Since it say it is for the Imam and Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb I assume it must be the latest version.
[/img]

Br. S. Insaf,

Actually, the image you have scanned does not say anything of that sort. Perhaps you can not read dawaat-ni-zabaan. The final few sentences are:

"Who is the a'had [misaq] for, it is for the 21st Imam, Mulana Imam Tayeb abul Qasim ameer al-mumineen. And his da'i and naaib is Sayedna Mohamaad Burhan al-din (TUS). Declare that you accept this and say 'naam'. "

So it seems that it does not say that the misaq is for the da'i, but only that the current da'i (SMB) is the Imam's da'i and naaib.

It is true that in many places in the misaq there are statements like "When the Imam and Imam's da'i ....". This is a very natural way to state the conditions of the misaq as the Imam is currently absent and hence only his da'i can call the believer to do so-and-so thing. Hence, unless we have the full text we can not conclude that the document you have posted says the misaq is for the da'i.

[Biradar]

[ Can you please provide some Arabic/Islamic Scholarly work done by current Syedna?

The literary output of S. Taher Saif al-din and S. M. Buran al-din is enormous. Porous has already mentioned the large number of (45+) books STS has written and I have mentioned the munajaat literature produced by SMB. This is only the tip of the ice-berg, as they say. Ismail Poonawala (a progressive) has listed the books written by STS in his Biobibliography of Ismaili Literature. Please consult it.

Also, most scholarly work done by the da'i's is for use of the community and not for outreach. Hence, you may not hear of things they produce unless you follow the community literature or listen closely to his lectures.

[porus]

Misaq is for the Imam. While in theory there is a clear distinction between the Imam and the Dai, in practice this distinction has little consequence. Let us wait until Insaf Saheb makes the whole text available. Then we can make sensible comments.

It would be foolhardy to suggest that a fluent knowledge of Arabic is sufficient to create a work of poetry, marsiya or other work of art any more than a fluent knowledge of English will enable one to write a novel or a poem. But being an Imam or a Dai does not mean he cannot write excellent poetry or marsiya. One would have to be quite skeptical of any claim that disputes Sayedna's authorship of Sayyid as-Shuhada marsiya.

Sayedna having an interpreter while conversing with Arabs makes a great deal of sense for several reasons:

Firstly, Arabic is an example of a language exhibiting extreme diglossia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia). Spoken and written languages differ greatly. Modern Standard Arabic is not suited for conversation and even educated Arabs fall back on Egyptian Colloquial Arabic to communicate with Arabs from other countries. Hence, there would be a need to choose a different interpreter in different countries.

Secondly, Bohra religious education invariably teaches Classical Arabic, not Modern Standard Arabic. Even these two differ greatly. I have a copy of the Quran with explanations of words in Modern Standard Arabic in the margins. Sayedna, most certainly, speaks Classical Arabic and not many Arabs, even educated ones, will really understand it. Marsiya, ya sayyid as-shuhada, is written in Classical Arabic. (In a waez delivered in the Yemen, Sayedna spoke in Classical Arabic. I suspect that most Yemenis did not clearly understand him but they got the sense of it. Even a Bohra with no knowledge of Arabic would get a sense of it.)

Thirdly, there is the matter of accent. Sayedna has a marked Gujarati accent when he speaks Arabic even when reciting the Quran or Duas. This would make it a bit harder for Arabs to understand him.

For these reasons, it is always advisable to have an interpreter.

[Biradar]

Misaq is for the Imam. While in theory there is a clear distinction between the Imam and the Dai, in practice this distinction has little consequence. Let us wait until Insaf Saheb makes the whole text available. Then we can make sensible comments.

I would be more than happy to help translate and perhaps provide some context on the text of the misaq. Lets post the whole dawaat-ne-zabaan text here. Then a number of people can help translate. This would be a very interesting project and as porus says, we can then make sensible comments.

[SBM]

would be more than happy to help translate and perhaps provide some context on the text of the misaq.

Biradar If you an active member of Abde club, how can you do that without RAZA from Wazaraat? I did notice Br. Aqs and others have refrained from the comments or providing any assistance in this regard

[accountability]

Biradar/Porus

I am not suggesting anything, I should admit that I have no clue regarding authoring of two marthias. My contention was and is, to be able to do poetry in any language one has to have a certain command and understand the delicacies of that language. I have never heard Syedna Tahir Saifuddin delivering waaz, He passed away when I was 6 years old.
I haeard Syedna Saheb umpteen times, I have heard him in arabic, specially a waaz he delivered in Yemen recently. Porus as you are well versed in arabic, may have noted that he was delivering waaz sans emotions. It seemed that he is just reading as he usually do in ordinary waaz, but in dawat language you may note his emotions coming to fore as he progresses or when he recites Imam Hussain's shahadat.
I do not understand arabic, but I have been brought up in a gulf state, I do know that arabic dialect differs rhetorically, classic arabic means one that is spoken by bedouine. Egyptian, Syrians, and lebanese have a bit different connotation, But they can all converse together, fully understand each other's view.

[porus]

accountability,

Yes, there is enough commonality between Saudi/Jordanian/Gulf colloquial Arabic and Iraqi/Syrian/Lebanese colloquial Arabic for them to have a passable conversation. However, if you live in a country long enough like many from Arab countries do in Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries, you would acquire local vocabulary/expressions and assimilate them.

Those who have learnt only Classical or Modern Standard Arabic but have not lived in an Arab country surrounded by Arabs will not acquire fluency in conversation. I have met Bohras who were born and bred in Gulf countries but hardly know any Arabic because of minimal contacts with local Arabs.

Sayedna is in his elements only when talking in lisaan-e-da'wat and that is where he can bring forth emotions. However, we cannot doubt that Sayedna does have expert command over Classical Arabic and, most probably, in Modern Standard Arabic too.

[Biradar]

There is one thing I must point out. The progressives are hasty to find faults and go overboard in criticism. This can take such an extreme form that even the most absurd rumors are believed without giving any thoughts to it. In these situations it seems that hatred and passion rule. Please let us not get carried away and make any ridiculous claims. It greatly reduces our credibility.

The corrupt practices and greed of the administration do not imply that the sayedna does not know Arabic or could not have composed books, poetry and prayers. Let not hatred rule us and let us think before believing a claim made by any random person.

[SBM]

could not have composed books,

Can you please provide names of the books, would enhance knowledge of everyone and would like to read it too.

[seeker110]

Br. Oma ,It wasnt written for bohras,it was for dawat reasons,we need to invite all the classic Arab speakers to our fold.

[aqs]

The credit of "ya sayyida_sh-shuhadaa:i" should be given to the poetic genius and scholarship in Arabic language of late Shaikh Ali Husain Saheb, the ustad of Jamiyah Saifia- Surat who composed it for late Syedna Saheb.
He had told me this in a personal meeting and when I checked it later, the statement/claim was supported by Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj and his brother Shaikh Yaqoob Ali saheban at Udaipur.

Insaaf saheb,

Do you seriously believe this or just throwing in these things for the sack of it.

now lets go over your allegation then the three people you have mentioned are among the four expelled teachers of Jamea. So to provide any weight to your allegation mention some other literary work of Ali Husain of the same calibre of Ya Saiyadda Shohadai.

[aqs]

I had previously heard of this attribution but I believe that this is the first time I have heard of a personal testimony. Further corroboration of the story by others would increase its credibility. I also wonder about the authorship of “fulku_l-Husaini bi-karbalaa:i”, which was putatively composed by Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin. That marthiya is a very recent composition and, generally, this type of 'creative' works are written by people in their prime of life.

Syedna (tus) writes a munajat every year which is recited in Lailatul Qadr, that should give a hint of his writing skills, he has been doing it for last 46 years and every year the style is same, so i think you can give the credit to him.

We have been made aware that Sayedna Taher Saifuddin has written several 'risala' each of which omits a letter of Arabic alphabet completely. I have also attended sabaks where they were discussed although I have personally not read any of them nor do I have a copies. However, it would be quite a feat writing an entire risala without Alif or Nun or Ta. Imagine writing philosophical essay in English without the letter 'e'!

Literary Works

Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ)
These risalas written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ) are unique in many ways. In the literature of the Dawat, for the first time, topics of zahir and batin are interspered within them.

Each risala has two sections. The first is "hamd", in praise and gratitude of Allah and His awliyah. This is written in an original style of prose and in an unprecedented quality of language. The second section consists of narrations and accounts, which are usually collected from other sources.

The books range from 200 to 500 pages. The adads from the name of each risala adds up the year in which the book was written. In some risalas, as indicated below, a letter or a set of letters of the Arabic alphabet is unused. This is a remarkable feat. Imagine writing in English without the use of the letter "e". In some books, the essential letter "Alif" has been unused. In some, all letters bearing dots (Manqutah) are unused. This is almost half the alphabet! This self-applied restriction does not limit or impair the flow of the topic, rather it enhances it.

In the risalas where the Alif and Manqutah letters are unused, the book has a few pages written without the use of Alif followed by a few pages without the use of the Manqutah letters. This alternating sequence is preserved even in the qasidas (poems) within the risala, in which one line of poem would have no Alif and the next, no Manqutah letters. His mastery over the language was complete.

Amongst the many places these risalas exist, one is the British Manuscript Library. They have become the principle reference source for scholars.
Number Name Use Of Alphabet Year H Year CE
1 Zo Nuril Haqqil Mubin 1335 1917
2 Samarato Ulumil Huda 1337 1919
3 Zahrur Rayazil Azaliyah 1338 1920
4 Dorarul Bisharat 1339 1921
5 Al Marshrabul Kausaree 1340 1922
6 Dorarul Hodal Mozia's 1341 1923
7 Rauzo Aalamil Quds 1342 1924
8 Gurfato Jannah without Alif 1343 1925
9 Semaaro Jannate Adnin Tayyebath 1345 1927
10 Qatfo Shajaratin Khuldiyah without Alif 1346 1928
11 Zybdato Buthanis Sidiquil Wazeh 1347 1929
12 Sibgo Noor without Alif 1348 1930
13 Garsul Jannah 1349 1931
14 Darara Asraare Aalil Karra'r without Manqutah 1350 1932
15 Nawro Rawzil Jannah 1351 1933
16 Bahro Fazlin Kabir 1352 1934
17 Masarratul Faithil Mobin 1353 1934
18 Al Baabo Haziratul Quds 1354 1935
19 Karamatul Uquoolil Waziyyah 1355 1936
20 Safhato Arfaatil Ma'arif 1356 1937
21 Anhaaro Riyazil Jannah 1357 1938
22 Sohobo Barakaatil Khuld 1358 1939
23 Zaatul Barakat 1359 1940
24 Kausaro Khuld without Alif & Manqutah 1360 1941
25 Rauzato Firdaus without Alif & Manqutah 1361 1942
26 Dalwo Girde Huq without Alif 1362 1943
27 Mashrabato Tasnime Noor without Alif 1363 1944
28 Salsabilo Hekaim Gadaq without Alif & Fe 1364 1945
29 Sararo Rushdin Marfua's without Alif & Be 1365 1946
30 Sawaro Hauzin Maurood without Alif & Te 1366 1947
31 Takbiro Sakinate Fathin Mobin without Alif & Se 1367 1948
32 Falsafato Fauzin Azzim without Alif & Jim 1368 1949
33 Tazkerato Labib without Alif & He 1369 1950
34 Silsilato Neamatin Uzma without Alif 1370 1951
35 Naimus Sibgatil Ilahiyah 1371 1952
36 Khazaaeno Imamil Muttaqeen 1372 1953
37 Mafaateehul Yaaquootatil H'amra's 1373 1954
38 Nahrun Noorish Sha'sha'aaniyah 1374 1955
39 Balaagud Doa'til Fatemiyyeen 1375 1956
40 Ashe'atil Fayzul Azil 1376 1957
41 Amsaalo Sidratil Muntahaa 1377 1958
42 Rauato Daarus Salaam 1378 1959
43 Tawhidul Millatul Baiza 1379 1960
44 Barakaato Ashaabit Tatheer 1380 1961

http://archive.mumineen.org/awliya/duat/works.html

[porus]

Literary Works

Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ)
These risalas written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ) are unique in many ways. In the literature of the Dawat, for the first time, topics of zahir and batin are interspered within them....

That's smashing, brother aqs. Do you know if these rasaa:il are available for purchase anywhere?

[profastian]

Literary Works

Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ)
These risalas written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ) are unique in many ways. In the literature of the Dawat, for the first time, topics of zahir and batin are interspered within them....

That's smashing, brother aqs. Do you know if these rasaa:il are available for purchase anywhere?

These rasail are way above your intellect, you numbnut.

[aqs]

Literary Works

Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ)
These risalas written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin (AQ) are unique in many ways. In the literature of the Dawat, for the first time, topics of zahir and batin are interspered within them....

That's smashing, brother aqs. Do you know if these rasaa:il are available for purchase anywhere?

Br. Porus,

i dont think you will be able to get these books in any book store, but you can lay your hand on two books which are published by Darul Kutub for mumineen,

khazainul barakat first published in 1379 is a compilation of duas recited in behori, it contains dua's and munajats written by Moula Ali(as), Aqa Hasan(as), Aqa Husain(as),but the main part is of duas of Moulana Ali zainil abedeen(as) and Syedna Taher Saifuddin(aq)

second book is whose cover page reads like this
zubdul adyitur gurra 1325 wahi gamamur rehma, its mentioned on the first few pages that its published by amr of Syedna Taher Saifuddin(aq) and reprinted by Syedna Mohammed Burhanudding(tus) in 1377,
this books contains duas recited daily, yaseen and Innafathana and other sura, it has a section of dua for every day of the week written by Moula Ali(as), Aqa Hasan(as), Aqa Husain(as) and Syedna Taher Saifuddin(aq),

Dua written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin(aq) will give you an idea of his literary genius as he has written them sometimes without Alif, without F and in other dua omitting other letters.

both of the books are easily available in any book store which sells deeni kitabs related to Dawoodi Bohras.

[SBM]

Br. Aqs
The question which has not still be answered "can you point out Islamic Scholarly books written by current Syedna?"
Most of your post mentions about DUAS. which in my minimal knowledge are the verses from Holy Quran with some addition of Wasilas.
I am seeking some scholarly books like one written by Syedi Mazoon's Daughter about Fatimid Dawat.

[Hussain_KSA]

Dear Porus,
It is not appropriate to cast doubt on Arabic skills of Syedna Taher Saifuddin and his sons at all. You might have seen the qasaid written by Mazoon saheb. I have personally experienced Arabic fluency of Mufaddal Bhai saheb in Makkah during the meeting with Al Jaad family regarding bohra rubaat demolition by Saudi Governement as I was working the same family.
There is Al Babtain publication in Kuwait which have published (معجم البابطين لشعرا العربية) This is collection of Arabic poets during the 20th century. It is also available online. There is madah written by Syedna Taher Saifuddin (صلي علي محمد ربه ) included with brief introduction of Syedna saheb. As you know Arabic you may like to see this:
http://www.almoajam.org/poet_details.php?id=3262
I am not Abde to praise blindly but one should go with the truth I believe. I have come across two letter which my grand father had with him written by Syedna Taher saifuddin. I was very young at that but I remember him telling that it is piece of art. I will try to find them in old records.
There is another mentioned of Syedna Taher Saifuddin as a poet of Karbala in Arabic history “ Shabka e Karbala.
Please see this link.
http://holykarbala.net/books/tarikh/eshamat/01.html
One can visit website of Mazoon saheb to enjoy his Arabic poetry. Children of Mazoon saheb are highly qualified and some of them teaching in western countries.
Recently I two student of Jamia Safia and I found they are very good in classic Arabic. However there is always problem of accent with non arab Arabic speakers.