Insaf and Co. silent

[profastian]

Insap and co. have been missing from the forum like "gadhe ke sir se seeng" after the Nus. Did they have a stroke or something

Naare Takbeer
Allaho -Akbar....

[aqs]

Br.
they are busy searching the paper which claimed Mazun saheb to be the next dai

[aziz]

if it was possible to smell through the cyber net you would be able to smell the snake and co burning with Hasad ni aag.
nass has been conferred and a mansoos is there with moula tus and insaap and co cannot do anything about it.
next step will be lies from the master liar insaap .

[profastian]

I am really surprised that the fitnat hasn't started yet, Nass on Mazoon, conspiracy against Quaid Johar bs, yatta yatta yatta.
I guess they are loading up their ammunition of hatred. It will start soon and Inshallah we will all "cook gulab jamun" WHEN it will be utterly defeated and crushed

[S. Insaf]

I or other reformists did not want to comment on this sudden announcement of Nass as we know there are no true and fearless Ulemas now in the community. Dawat's nizam has been hijacked by the selfish members of the so-called Royal family. The Bohras have lost courage and self-respect. So they will defend everything that has been fed to them.

In fact Nass on Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb was done when he was 18 years old. Then he was trained and groomed by 51st Dai by closely keeping Burhanuddin Saheb with him. Even making him sit on the same dais when delivering vaiz. Where as in this case Nass has been done as damage-control device at the last moment and too in secrecy of his four sons only from the hospital bed. Allah had given a long life to Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb, not given to any earlier Dai. He had enough time to abide by the proper norms of the Nass according to faith.

According to Faith the Nass can be accepted when it is done by:
1) By Imam's inspiration (This condition is overlooked as according to Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb's declaration that exitence of Imam is imaginary.)
2) Nass should be "Nass-Jali". That is present Dai should himself declare the Nass on the next Dai in open majlis (assembly) without leaving any chance for ambiguity.
3) At the time of declaration all hudud like Mazoon, Mukasir etc. should be present in order to avoid any chance of rivalry in future.

None of these conditions has been adhered to in the present case.

Same thing had happened when Nass-e-Jali was not done by 46th Dai himself on Syedna Saheb’s grandfather and 47th Dawoodi Bohra Dai, Syedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb. Then off course was council of Ulemas “Hizbul Fazail” which had raised the objection and later Syedna Najmuddin Saheb and Dais thereafter were accepted as “Nazim”, in order to avoid any split in the community. But split did take place and even today there are few Bohras (known as 46th walas) who believe that Dai from 47th onwards are not properly appointed “Dai-ul-Mutlaq”.

[profastian]

According to Faith the Nass can be accepted when it is done by:
1) By Imam's inspiration (This condition is overlooked as according to Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb's declaration that exitence of Imam is imaginary.)
2) Nass should be "Nass-Jali". That is present Dai should himself declare the Nass on the next Dai in open majlis (assembly) without leaving any chance for ambiguity.
3) At the time of declaration all hudud like Mazoon, Mukasir etc. should be present in order to avoid any chance of rivalry in future.

According to whose faith? Can you give any references for point 2 and 3? Where is it written that all hudud must be present?

[aqs]

1) By Imam's inspiration (This condition is overlooked as according to Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb's declaration that exitence of Imam is imaginary.)

Profastian has already asked for point 2 and 3 and i am interested in point 1, which i have asked before also. please present the authentic references.

Same thing had happened when Nass-e-Jali was not done by 46th Dai himself on Syedna Saheb’s grandfather and 47th Dawoodi Bohra Dai, Syedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb. Then off course was council of Ulemas “Hizbul Fazail” which had raised the objection and later Syedna Najmuddin Saheb and Dais thereafter were accepted as “Nazim”, in order to avoid any split in the community. But split did take place and even today there are few Bohras (known as 46th walas) who believe that Dai from 47th onwards are not properly appointed “Dai-ul-Mutlaq”.

Is this the official version of Reformists stand that present Syedna(tus) and forefather were not Dail Mutlaq or again its different

[Baskin]

I or other reformists did not want to comment on this sudden announcement of Nass as we know there are no true and fearless Ulemas now in the community. Dawat's nizam has been hijacked by the selfish members of the so-called Royal family. The Bohras have lost courage and self-respect. So they will defend everything that has been fed to them.

So why do you comment now? Does the True and Dabangg Insaf... the so called only Ulema... has to say some truth... besides blabbing...

In fact Nass on Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb was done when he was 18 years old. Then he was trained and groomed by 51st Dai by closely keeping Burhanuddin Saheb with him. Even making him sit on the same dais when delivering vaiz. Where as in this case Nass has been done as damage-control device at the last moment and too in secrecy of his four sons only from the hospital bed. Allah had given a long life to Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb, not given to any earlier Dai. He had enough time to abide by the proper norms of the Nass according to faith.

According to Faith the Nass can be accepted when it is done by:
1) By Imam's inspiration (This condition is overlooked as according to Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb's declaration that exitence of Imam is imaginary.)
2) Nass should be "Nass-Jali". That is present Dai should himself declare the Nass on the next Dai in open majlis (assembly) without leaving any chance for ambiguity.
3) At the time of declaration all hudud like Mazoon, Mukasir etc. should be present in order to avoid any chance of rivalry in future.

None of these conditions has been adhered to in the present case.

Same thing had happened when Nass-e-Jali was not done by 46th Dai himself on Syedna Saheb’s grandfather and 47th Dawoodi Bohra Dai, Syedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin Saheb. Then off course was council of Ulemas “Hizbul Fazail” which had raised the objection and later Syedna Najmuddin Saheb and Dais thereafter were accepted as “Nazim”, in order to avoid any split in the community. But split did take place and even today there are few Bohras (known as 46th walas) who believe that Dai from 47th onwards are not properly appointed “Dai-ul-Mutlaq”.

When you progs don't follow and listen to the current Dai then why you're so bothered about who the next Dai is... you're not going to follow him either....

The Dai told you progs infinite times; on your face, through bayaans and live relays... leave this adawat and come to dawat... but you don't want to listen to him and you don't want to believe him...

and now you same progs asking him to do nass in public and through live relay... then only you believe...

I bet you guys won't believe even if the nass was done in public... you definitely will have another conspiracy theory readied...

shame on you..

[S. Insaf]

Sorry the last pragraph remained to be added in my last post:
However, these are matters of Faith and Religion. The Dawoodi Bohra reformists are concerned about accountability, transparency, democratic functioning of Dawat-e-Hadiya and welfare of the community and humanity at large. Who-so-ever is at the helm of affairs of the community, as long as he/she adheres to these basic Islamic principles we will have no problem with him or her.

[brain_dead]

Mr Insaf should respond to PROFASTIAN's query.I am following this forum for the past couple of years and one thing about mr insaf is clear that whenever he has alleged something he has not been able to back that allegation with solid evidence. I have stated this once before also but no reply from him or the learned members of this forum who agree with mr Insaf.

[aziz]

insaap can you provide proof which of the last ten syednas did nass jalli apart of s.taher Saifuddin nass on s.m.Burhanuddin. which you also deny. and also please provide proof that in which of this instances were the mazoon and mukasir.
do not like all your other posts do fitnat and run away this time.

the true depth of your lies is shown by the nass on s jalal by s Yusuf which was done by a letter from yemen to India.
for once stop all your lies and try to be a man that you are not and admit defeat.
and stop your bullshit about ulemas. i thought you progs believed ajger to be a highly respected uloma

[accountability]

I will apend the events following nass of these dais, which proves that all the nass were jali (obvious) including Syedna saheb's nass by syedna tahir saifuddin. This is from Jamea's course book

Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin(RA) is known as "Moiyyed-e-Asger" because of his extensive work in the literary field and the vast number of 'Qasidas'(Islamic poetry) written by him.
He erased the wrong notions that Majdu had spread about Imaan and got the mumineen back on the right path of Imaan. He succeeded as Dai at the age of 28 years. Many 'Taameerat' (constructions) were done in his era. Amongst them is Al-Masjid-ul-Azam which was funded by his personal wealth and the famed Al-Darsus-Saifee which was later renamed as Al-Jamea-Tus-Saifiyah by Syedna Taher Saifuddin(AQ). His zamaan witnessed many scholars who wrote books on many subjects( which are still astutely referred to) and which were written under his guidance.
In 1228H, Jamnagar and Kutch fell prey to severe drought. 12,000 mumineen migrated from there and came under his shelter. Syedna(RA) looked after them for one year and helped them to become self-reliant. He did nass on Syedi Abdul Qadr Hakimuddin, but he expired. He was grief-stricken. The 'munafeqin' started taunting him that the person you had so proudly appointed and were counting on has passed away. Whom will you turn to now? He angrily retorted that it was not for him to worry but Imam-uz-Zamaan would guide him spiritually and he would do as he directed.
His son, Syedna Mohammed Badruddin, was born in the year 1232 H. The nasihat "Ilm na Moti Jaro" was written for him by Syedna(RA). He took ill after that and on the 7th of Zilqad, he called the Hudud Kiraam and did nass on Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin(44th Dai) in their presence and later passed away.

Syedna Mohammed Badruddin(RA) 46th Dai
Date of Birth : 27th Rabi-ul-Akhar 1226H / 1811AD
Date of Wafaat : 29th Jamad-ul-Akhar 1256 H/ 1840AD
Tenure of Dawat : 3 yrs 7 months 14 days


Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin(RA) thanked Allah Subhanahu on the birth of Syedna Mohammed Badruddin(RA).He wrote a 'Qasida'(Islamic poem imparting a message) - Ilm na Moti Jaro in which he mentioned about the Mansus and advised Syedna(RA) to bow down before him.
At a tender age of 4, his father Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin(RA) passed away, and when he was only 7 years old, Syedna Mohammed Ezuddin(RA) passed away. Syedna Taiyib Zainuddin(RA) then took care of him. Syedna Abdul Qader Najmuddin(RA) and he studied under Syedi Abdeali Imamuddin(QS).
During the Ashara Waaz, Syedna Tayeb Zainuddin(RA) did nass on him. He succeeded as Dai at the age of 26 years.
Once, there was a massive fire, in which several houses were burnt down. Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin(RA) struggled hard to save the books of Dawat. Syedna Badruddin(RA) migrated to Pune and sent Syedna AbdulQader Najmuddin(RA) to rebuild the houses that were burnt down.
On the 27th of Zilqad 1253 H, Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin(RA) laid the foundation of Dars-e-Saify.
During the Ashara Mubaraka of 1253 H in Pune on 9th Muharram, Syedna Mohammed Badruddin(RA) did nass on Syedna AbdulQader Najmuddin(RA).
In 1256H, During the Ashara Mubaraka in Surat, again he declared nass. After that he frequently announced that Syedna AbdulQadir(RA) would be the next Dai.

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin(RA) 49th Dai
Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin(RA) 49th Dai
Date of Birth : 24th Ramazan 1256H / 1840AD
Wafaat : 27th Zilqad 1323 H/ 1906 AD
Period of Dawat : 15 years

In the year 1272H, he was conferred Hadiyat and laqab of Burhanuddin on Ashura. Syedna Najmuddin(RA) prepared him to undertake the responsibilities of being Dai.
Syedna Najmuddin(RA) made him Rasul Hudud. Syedna Husamuddin(RA) appointed him as Mukasir and he was Wali of Mumbai.
After performing nass on him, Syedna Husamuddin(RA) passed away in Ahmedabad. Syedna Burhanuddin(RA) was in Bombay and couldn't go to Ahmedabad at the time due to heavy rains.
Syedna Burhanuddin(RA) was Dai for 15 years. 5 years were of intense hardship, in which the debts of Dawat were settled. The next five years, he regularised and organised the working of the order and for the next five, he ensured that Dawat was safe and the banner of Dawat was raised aloft in all directions .
He constructed many 'Masajid' (Mosques), 'Madrasah' (Schools to impart religous education) and 'Musafirkhanas'(Place for travellers to stay). He also instituted the rasm of providing meals to 'Zuwwar' (travellers) at the places of Ziyaarat.
In 1320H, he went to Kerbala. His wife, Amatullah Aaisaheba was expecting Syedna Taher Saifuddin(RA). He asked her to gather the barakat of Imam Husain's zarih for the unborn child by touching her stomach to the Zarih.
In 1321 H, he went for Haj and arrived at the Ka'aba on 29th Zilqad. The King of Hijaz, gave him a warm welcome and a ceremonial procession was taken out in Mina , where everyone was amazed at the radiance emanating from Syedna(RA), just like an angel.
In 1323, his health deteriorated and on the 11th of Zilhaj, he conferred nass upon Syedna Abdullah Badruddin(RA) and passed away.

[accountability]

in above post I could not highlight the nass part, so i will just quote it here


Syedna Ezzudin's nass

He took ill after that and on the 7th of Zilqad, he called the Hudud Kiraam and did nass on Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin(44th Dai) in their presence and later passed away.

Syedna Mohammed Badruddin nass

During the Ashara Waaz, Syedna Tayeb Zainuddin(RA) did nass on him. He succeeded as Dai at the age of 26 years.

Syedna Abdul Qadir's nass

During the Ashara Mubaraka of 1253 H in Pune on 9th Muharram, Syedna Mohammed Badruddin(RA) did nass on Syedna AbdulQader Najmuddin(RA).
In 1256H, During the Ashara Mubaraka in Surat, again he declared nass. After that he frequently announced that Syedna AbdulQadir(RA) would be the next Dai.

Syedna Abdullah Badruddin nass

In 1323, his health deteriorated and on the 11th of Zilhaj, he conferred nass upon Syedna Abdullah Badruddin(RA) and passed away.

[accountability]

All these nass were very(jali) obvious including Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin's nass.
It has become the habit of pro administration people to manipulate and distort and bend our history, fiqah and theology just to meet their and their master's end meet.

It is these very people, whose flattery and submission for whatever motive has caused rifts, frustration among mumineen. They will deny the obvious and insist on what is not there. We are not questioning the nass, but rather the venue and time.

As I have said earlier, I will remain a dawoodi bohra, but my allegience is to our religion rather than a family. If syedna saheb has done nass then it is fine.
I have met Muffadal Bhaisaheb once, I found him kind and good natured. we extend felicitation on assencion to rutba of dawat.

[DMY]

in above post I could not highlight the nass part, so i will just quote it here


Syedna Ezzudin's nass

He took ill after that and on the 7th of Zilqad, he called the Hudud Kiraam and did nass on Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin(44th Dai) in their presence and later passed away.

Syedna Mohammed Badruddin nass

During the Ashara Waaz, Syedna Tayeb Zainuddin(RA) did nass on him. He succeeded as Dai at the age of 26 years.

Syedna Abdul Qadir's nass

During the Ashara Mubaraka of 1253 H in Pune on 9th Muharram, Syedna Mohammed Badruddin(RA) did nass on Syedna AbdulQader Najmuddin(RA).
In 1256H, During the Ashara Mubaraka in Surat, again he declared nass. After that he frequently announced that Syedna AbdulQadir(RA) would be the next Dai.

Syedna Abdullah Badruddin nass

In 1323, his health deteriorated and on the 11th of Zilhaj, he conferred nass upon Syedna Abdullah Badruddin(RA) and passed away.

Profastian by now probably has his tail between his legs.

[DMY]

the nass on s jalal by s Yusuf which was done by a letter from yemen to India.

As you ask for proof then you shall also provide same!!

[aziz]

what is so funny is that you are actually proving my case.all the nass mentioned with exception of nass of s mohd badruddin on s abdulqadir najmuddin which was stated above were nass done in presence of hudud and not public,but hear this the funny part is that the nass done in public by s mohd badruddin is denied by the progs and all other nass is accepted..
our moula tus also did nass on his mansoos tus with hudud of dawat namely his shezadas present ,who said that only mazoon and mukasir are the only hudud in dawat today ,learn from your scholars before putting your foot in your mouth,
when it suits you the nass of 46 th dai done on 9 th moharram in pune its okay but otherwise deny it,who is the hypocrate now,
as for the proof of the nass of syedna jalal ask the accountant to copy paste that portion also,

[aziz]

further more the deniers of the nass its not something new in dawat,rasullah sa did nass on moula ali sa on ghadire khum among 70000 muslims and still the hazrats denied, its the same today insaap and co are in the same boat

[profastian]

what is so funny is that you are actually proving my case.all the nass mentioned with exception of nass of s mohd badruddin on s abdulqadir najmuddin which was stated above were nass done in presence of hudud and not public,but hear this the funny part is that the nass done in public by s mohd badruddin is denied by the progs and all other nass is accepted..
our moula tus also did nass on his mansoos tus with hudud of dawat namely his shezadas present ,who said that only mazoon and mukasir are the only hudud in dawat today ,learn from your scholars before putting your foot in your mouth,
when it suits you the nass of 46 th dai done on 9 th moharram in pune its okay but otherwise deny it,who is the hypocrate now,
as for the proof of the nass of syedna jalal ask the accountant to copy paste that portion also,

Spot on... Shows their jihalat complelety.

[Humsafar]

...hudud of dawat namely his shezadas present...

So the shehzada are the hudud of dawat. Now, that's very convenient.

... the deniers of the nass its not something new in dawat...

Nobody is denying the nass but questioning the process and the way it was done. But at the end of the day, Muffadal saheb is the next dai and we'll all accept that, no question about it. The only question is that will the new Dai address the concerns of reformists?

[profastian]

...hudud of dawat namely his shezadas present...

So the shehzada are the hudud of dawat. Now, that's very convenient.

So you guys didn't even know that. I thought there were jayyid aamils amongst you knowing all the inns and out of the Fatimid tradition and dawat.

[Humsafar]

Ya right, Burhanuddin & Sons form a nice a little band of hudud for the dawat shop. All in the family. Now that you all have suddenly forgotten to mourn the 52nd, your allegiance is quickly shifting to Muffadal & Sons. You've got your hududs and priorities down pat, I must say.

[accountability]

aziz, two of the shahzadas supposedly present did not have hud, only one has been officially granted hud. Triangle of our dawat according to our theology does not complete without mazoon and mukasir. Both of them were not present.
There are reports that mazoon saheb is conflicting nass, even Mukasir saheb has not endorsed nass, there is no bayan from mukasir saheb to that effect. mazoon saheb obviously is not happy.
first it was asked to provide proof of Jalli (Porus I corrected it) nass by last dais, when it was provided, you are refuting Jamea's own teaching.

As Hamsafar pointed out in other post, it is not for us to decide nass.
But in 21st century taaweel is not hidden, technology is a godly tool. Syedna saheb benefitted from german medical technology for decades.

[porus]

Jalli (Porus I corrected it) nass .

accountability,

I owe you an apology. You were right all along. It is not 'jalli' with two l's but jali (جلي) with single l. It is spelt jeem. laam. ya.

Dictionary meaning of 'jali' is clear, plain, manifest, obvious, patent, conspicuous.

It is 'jali' that the nass on Mufaddalbhai Saheb is anything but 'jali'.

[anajmi]

I believe it was nass jaldi jaldi.

[Humsafar]

I believe it was nass jaldi jaldi.

[porus]

By the way, jali in 'nass jali' should really be pronounced 'jalee'. That's me being pedantic.

I would like to comment on 'hudood'.

Hud (plural Hudood) ordinarily means 'limit' or 'boundary' In the Quran it refers to a series of punishments for which limits are prescribed.

In the Da'awat hierarchy, Hudood are ranks which were, in the Imam's times, defined by the Dai al-Kirmani and modeled on heavenly ranks like aql awwal, aql thani etc. However these ranks were simplified after the disappearance of the ranks of hujjat, dai al-balagh etc with the death of Hujjat Hurrat al-Malika and Dai al-Balagh Sayedna Lamak. The simplified structure with the Dai al-Mutlaq at the head of the Da'awat is explained in Sayedna Hatim's 'Tuhfat al-Quloob'.

Dai al-Mutlaq nominates all ranks below him and the first mention of Mazoon and Mukasir as the topmost Hudood below Dai al-Mutlaq occurs in Tuhfat al-Quloob. The idea of 'Hud', according to al-Kirmani, is that he has the requisite qualifications to step up to the next highest level. Thus, Mazoon is expected to be a successor if the Dai al-Mutlaq dies.

Below Mukasir are Shaikhs (Mashaikh) about 18 of which were considered sufficiently advanced to be initiated into Hudood hierarchy. These were known as Bhaisahibs. To distinguish these Hudoods from members of the Royal family who are also addressed as Bhaisahibs, Hudood normally carry the title al_Hud.

Of course, things have changed and currently only the members of the Royal Family are Hudood. Whether they still have the significance previously attached to this title is not clear but I suspect that it has gone the way of the title of 'Shaikh'. I think that nowadays, Hudoods are members of the Royal family graduated from Jami'a and others who graduate from there are Mullas or Shaikhs. And we also have countless patron Shaikhs whose spiritual or academic credentials are not always noteworthy.

[porus]

I think that nowadays, Hudoods are members of the Royal family graduated from Jami'a and others who graduate from there are Mullas or Shaikhs.

I should clarify that not all Royals who graduate from jami'a are 'hudood'. The dai putatively chooses those whom he considers to have the necessary qualifications. Can anyone cite for us what these qualifications might be?

[accountability]

Thanks Porus, with all humility, you are one of a kind. Recently Hussain Bhai saheb son of Syedi Muffadal bhaisaheb was made Al Had. Not all Shahzada carry Al Had title. Two of Maula's brothers are Al Had. Aziz's contention that All three Shahzadas were Al Had is not correct. Ex officio Hudood are Mazoon and Mukasir sahebs. Without the presence of Hudood Fazil (Mazoon and Mukasir) Nass may not called Jalee or obvious.

Natural contender of the office wll be Mazoon, but there are precedents, that nominee was not Mazoon, but in each case nominee was declared in mazoon's presence and endorsed by mazoon.

[Biradar]

Natural contender of the office wll be Mazoon, but there are precedents, that nominee was not Mazoon, but in each case nominee was declared in mazoon's presence and endorsed by mazoon.

This is a ridiculous statement. Please prove that in each case of the last 52 da'is the appointment was endorsed by mazoon and in his presence. In many instances the nass was done by letter, sometimes in public and sometimes in private among a select few. At the end of the day the da'i can do absolutely what he wants and no one is required to endorse his choice. In the time of satr the da'i is the absolute leader. There is an instance when the Mazoon was removed from his position.

I think people are getting too worked up about this nass issue. It was bound to happen one day and it is good it has happened so that the community does not split. Of course, schisms are still possible but I think highly unlikely. In the misaaq one explicitly declares that the da'i can promote whoever he wants and demote whoever he wants. It does not say he needs endorsement from anyone. Now, one can question the misaq from many perspectives but this is the way it is.

Just accept this as a valid succession and move on. There will no difference to the progressive movement at all. Things are not going to change and probably will get worse.