Reformists Convention In Udaipur

[Aarif]

Humsafar,

you wrote this..

Too many people are too spineless to qualify as humans.

I completely disagree with this as far as our community is concerned and hence sarcastically wrote

So now you are going to decide who is human and who is not.. Is it???

Now you took this literally and wrote

Are you itching for a fight or are you too thick to understand metaphor?

Humans are humans because of their straight spine (homo erectus), and being spineless means one who cannot stand erect and figuratively it means one who lacks guts, moral courage. My statement must be understood in the figurative sense.

Oh! the stupidity of the literal mind. This is exactly why the Quran is dangerous in the hands of people like you. It is a book of metaphor, and parable and allegory and it must be understood at that level - and not taken literally like most conservative muslims do.

After this post of your's I have explained you my stand on my above-mentioned qoute... And it is not that I did not understand the metphor... So I did not take it literally but you did what I wrote in response of that. This means you are literal minded but I am not...

IF YOU STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND LET ME KNOW AND I WILL EXPLAIN AGAIN...

[Above Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

So in your response, you added a few qualifiers for why you believe what you believe, however when it comes to the muslims, it needs to be take it all or leave it all, as per your understanding?

As far as quran is concerned, what you feel obliged to point out is simply your understanding of the quran. Let me state that again, it is simply your understanding of the quran.

I take all words of the quran seriously, I just make sure, people like you aren't fooling me into killing innocents as interpretation of the quran.

So now you accept that certain aspect of the Quran are allegorical

I have never denied that. I only state that people who dwell on taawil are those with darkness in their hearts. This is as per the quran itself. I don't decide what is allegorical and what is not, you seem to have decided that killing is literal and praying is not. I said before, I follow the quran as taught by the prophet through his sunna and the elders. You do too, for you, Osama is your elder who has taught you that killing is literal.

[Humsafar]

If you understood the metaphor, why would you ask this:

So now you are going to decide who is human and who is not.. Is it???

Metaphorically speaking I was not trying to decide whether anyone is human or not?

[Aarif]

Humsafar,

This is getting more difficult then I thought...

So now you are going to decide who is human and who is not.. Is it???

What I meant by this is that "Now you are going to decide who has the courage or not" OR in crude lingo "You are going to decide who has the balls or not"

where Courage = Balls = Spine

Please do not tell me that even now you do not understand what I am trying Oh! so hard to explain...

[like_minded]

Areef,

Let me step in, and cut short this debate.... Yes people of Udaipur have "balls" no doubt about it. The rest bohras, are indeed spineless, they just dont have the balls to stand up with self-respect and revolt against the oppressors.

[Humsafar]

Arif, I still maintain that if you had understood the metaphor you would not have asked the question you did. Only a literal interpretation of my statement could have resulted in such a query. In any case, I've nothing more to say on this. And please don't try too hard you might rupture your synapses.

[Aarif]

LM and Humsafar,

You two might not be having balls and that is fine with me... I don't care about two bohris without balls... But if you are trying to generalise then better come up with some logical explaination... I have clearly mentioned the reasons why most bohris want to continue with the current system inspite of its loopholes... Just because they are not revolting does not mean they don't have balls... Or is this another fundu example of LM's GRT logical thinking???

Arif, I still maintain that if you had understood the metaphor you would not have asked the question you did. Only a literal interpretation of my statement could have resulted in such a query. In any case, I've nothing more to say on this. And please don't try too hard you might rupture your synapses.

An extremely good example of a literal mind...

BTW: I do not have to maintain anything as far as you are concerned... Because with each post of yours you are proving my point

[Al Zulfiqar]

"" I have clearly mentioned the reasons why most bohris want to continue with the current system inspite of its loopholes... Just because they are not revolting does not mean they don't have balls...

in fact almost all the most 'revolting' people in human history, had balls as appendages in the right places....!! that did not make them any less 'revolting'!

by that same yardstick, majority of bohras are in full possession of their balls, but that does not mean they are any less 'revolting'.....

[Aftab]

Aareef and like_minded,

It seems that you are truly deprived of an intellectual debate within and are therefore here to vomit and show that you are capable of one. That too is honorable. But what is not is the fact that you detest the upper handiness of the Kothar, taxes and the force and yet cling to the comfort of the social aspects of the community. Fortunately, we do not need you because to be a reformist needs conviction. And yes conviction needs a spine, balls (as you put it). Being a reformist is no picnic – only showers of lanaats, baraats, threats, boycotts and insults.

Try your wits with the Kothar and you will find Humsafar very palatable, at the very least he is trying to come to terms with your stupidity.

[Aarif]

Aftab,

You missed the point that I was trying to make. People do not revolt unless they come to a point where they have nothing to loose. If you will read the history all the major revolutions occured when people realized that this is the only way out. And it is important to understand this. People still want to remain as part of the community for varous other reasons inspite of the exploitation by kothar. One of the biggest reason is our social structure. Dawoodi bohras find it difficult to mix and merge with other mainstream muslim communities... For most bohris staying within the community is still the best option because of the social privilages they enjoy as part of the community.

I have seen the bohris enjoying the jaman, socializing with their friends and cribbing about the high taxes at the same time.

[Aarif]

in fact almost all the most 'revolting' people in human history, had balls as appendages in the right places....!! that did not make them any less 'revolting'!

by that same yardstick, majority of bohras are in full possession of their balls, but that does not mean they are any less 'revolting'.....

Here is another classic example of a literal mind.

[Al Zulfiqar]

areef,

does ur simple mind have trouble understanding double entendre'???

[like_minded]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aareef:
Aftab,

You missed the point that I was trying to make. People do not revolt unless they come to a point where they have nothing to loose. If you will read the history all the major revolutions occured when people realized that this is the only way out. And it is important to understand this. People still want to remain as part of the community for varous other reasons inspite of the exploitation by kothar. One of the biggest reason is our social structure. Dawoodi bohras find it difficult to mix and merge with other mainstream muslim communities... For most bohris staying within the community is still the best option because of the social privilages they enjoy as part of the community.

I have seen the bohris enjoying the jaman, socializing with their friends and cribbing about the high taxes at the same time.[/QUOTe

Aareef,

Let me go by your logic now..... To start with, Imam Hussain, who is famous for his supreme sacrifice, must have had nothing to lose, when he stood up and fought against yazid????? Was it???

Mahatma Gandhi, must have had no social status, hence nothing to lose when he stood up against the British??? Was it??

Aareef, It takes an individual effort to bring about whatever little change one can, There is always something to lose, remember, brave people have always stood up against tyranny not bothering about the consequences.. That is precisely what Imam Hussain taught us, but are we matured enough to read this message and implement this in our lives???

It is no doubt difficult to bring about reform, but remember the end result is very satisfying.. because what you get in return is freedom, which is priceless!! which is the birth right of every human on this planet.

Bohras who hang on to the feel good factor, are conditined to the extent that any change would hurt their self inflated ego.

[Aarif]

To start with, Imam Hussain, who is famous for his supreme sacrifice, must have had nothing to lose, when he stood up and fought against yazid????? Was it???

Mahatma Gandhi, must have had no social status, hence nothing to lose when he stood up against the British??? Was it??

Yawn!! LM,

You make me go to sleep brother by YOUR GRT deductions based on my logic... There is only one Husain and only one Gandhi.. These were special people who had a big goal to achieve.. You cannot compare every ordinary man with these GRT people... If that would have been the case then this world would not have required a "Husain" or a "Gandhi".. In fact this world would not have required any leaders. The word common man would not have existed in the dictionary...

So please stop comparing every Tom, Dick and bohra with these GRT men...

I agree to the fact that Dawoodi bohras definitely need reforms in the community. They are putting up with lot of bull to remain within the community. But then that's their selfish motive. Let me give you another practical example. Many reformists from Udaipur have gone back and joined the main stream bohras.. Its not that they have lost the courage to remain as reformists. Its just that it makes some practical sense for them to do so. You are getting too emotional with all this reform business. Ultimately my take is that in this world each one is loyal to oneself and that's it... Internally bohras don't care about kothar or Syedna. As long as they are within the boundaries of the community they are fine. In fact many bohras call Kothar as the "neccessary evil". And that's why I am again saying that if they reach a point where they do not need the community they will ditch Syedna in one day...

[S. Insaf]

Brother Areef,
You say, In fact many bohras call Kothar as the "neccessary evil".
How has this change in Bohras' mentality come? I think it is due to the consistent efforts by the reformists. So the efforts much go on till Bohras ditch the exploitative system one day...

[like_minded]

Aareef

People like Imam Hussain and Mahatma Gandhi, were ordinary men like us, with strong conviction, self-respect, and awareness.

Look... these qualities are in each and every human, It is just that for most people, exploring this inner potential is not so essential.

I agree with you, that most bohras stay put in the community not bothering about the garbage thrown at them by the Kothar, simply to fulfill their selfish motive, they've been conditioned to the extent that most followers have turned rusty and impotent. The element of greed is projected to the level that most followers get sucked in.

The only solution I see to this blind following, Is self realization, getting free from the conditioned mind, being practical and taking life as it comes. It is surely hard, but not impossible.

[like_minded]

Internally bohras don't care about kothar or Syedna. As long as they are within the boundaries of the community they are fine. In fact many bohras call Kothar as the "neccessary evil". And that's why I am again saying that if they reach a point where they do not need the community they will ditch Syedna in one day...
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Kotharis are smart businessmen, and this community is like bread and butter to them, they are out there to rule us for the next 100 years. For which, they are strengthening their grounds. They are playing with the trump card which is religion, so, unless the followers free themselves from the dogmas of religion, I dont see how they will ditch syedna one day.

[Aarif]

Br. Insaaf,

I really appreciate the efforts taken by the reformists to bring about awareness in the community. There is no doubt whatsoever about it. However, please note that many people inspite of being unaware about the actual reform movement are feeling the pinch in their pockets. And the reason for this is common sense. People have realized that the Kothar is using the community as a money making machine. The demands of kothar has increased ten folds in last few decades. People are not able to meet them and are slowly realizing that the kothar is becoming unaffordable. The day they realize that kothar is completely unaffordable they will leave it.

LM,

The above explaination also answers your question. Remember religion has nothing to do with all this. I have seen dawoodi bohras during the Ashura coming to mosque, chatting with friends and the moment janaab says "Yaa Husain" they become serious and start doing maatam. They actually do not care about Ashura or ramdaan. For them more important is the social get together during such occasions. In fact I very well know how youngsters go out and freak in the night of Lailatul Qadar after the washeq is over...

As far as Mahatma Gandhi and Imam Husain are concerned I still maintain that they were not mere mortals. In fact it is the qualities that they possesed seperates them from mere mortals like you and me. Not everybody can achieve the feats that they acheived. Remember there were people like Nehru, Patel, Zinnah and others along with Gandhi. But it is Gandhi who is called the father of the nation. When it came to greatness and sacrifice he surpassed all of them. That does not mean that Nehru and Patel were useless. But Gandhi was a special man... And so was Imam Husain who rewrote history as far as Islam is concerned...

[Al Zulfiqar]

Bhai Areef,

the upshot of all that you have written about the orthodox, meek abde-syednas and why the reformists are so few etc, highlighting the facts about the social comfort zone for the majority of bohras, their labrez jamans, the majlises, the cultural and religious activities all providing a glow of warmth and so on and the bleak social scene for those who join the reformists... all this is well known. now tell us where do you stand personally?

are you someone who is using the excuses of the majority to justify your own stance of not leaving the orthodox fold? what matters to YOU, accepting the slavery and increasing persecution from the syedna and his rascal family who are living off their ill-gotten gains from the silent majority and misleading the oppressed hordes in the name of religion or breaking free of the shackes and your comfort zone, not accepting injustice and lies and deception? you decide what is the strength of your moral fibre.

you have proved time and again from your posts that the vast majority of bohras are nothing but a herd of sheep, a mob which goes where the rest of the mob goes, basically having no individual mind or guts of their own. you have also clearly said that it is precisely this weakness which the kothar is exploiting and piling on more and more 'taxes' and tightening the screws on this hapless community. but why do you keep blaming the reformists for this, as if the problem is of their making?!

what do you expect? that the reformists should have daily jamans in bohri mohallas of 4 kharas, 4 mithaas and majlises for women to come and show off their ridhas or what? is this what the reformist movement means to you and the majority? providing a plush club or showing the support for those who will not accept abuse in the name of religion?

is human dignity and freedom on sale for something as mundane as jamans and jamaat gossip or does it have some higher altruistic values? the day you and the vast majority figure that out, that will be the day when the oppressed will break ranks. until then, the meek and timid will keep advancing the same excuses and justifications that you do, looking to find fault with those brave enough to turn their backs on tyranny and loot, instead of finding fault with themselves.

[Aarif]

AZ,

Looks like you are back from Khandala. So how was the weather?

Now coming to the point.. I give a rat's arse to what people like you think about my stance...

But since you have asked the question in bold I will answer it for you one last time(DOBARA MAT PUCHNA). I have told many a times that I do not have much interaction with the mainstream or reformists bohras... I do not waste my time by going to markaz/majid and singing Ghanu Jeevo or Aati kyaa khandala.. I believe very strongly in Islam as a religion and follow it seriously. It is much more then mere rituals for me. I don't care what others think about Islam... I am a muslim and love my religion PERIOD

As far as socializing within community is concerned I have very few bohri friends and they are not typical STD bohras... In short I will not do things that I do not want to do so that I can enjoy the social privilages within the community. But at the same time I do not have any objection if others are happy doing all this.

The views that I express on this site are neutral without taking any sides.

Now the differece between you and me is that
you are a typical bohra who does everything that a abde syedna will do. The only difference is that you come on this site with a fake ID and shout your lungs out criticizing kothar and Syedna. If you have the balls then come out in open like Mr. Insaf or Mr. Engineer and fight them. According to me you are a bigger coward and a hypocrate because you do everything that a typical bohri does and then crib about it.

As far as I am concerned I don't like to unneccesarily criticize the bohras for being meek and mild if they are happy doing that. It is their choice and I have nothing to do with it. Also, that does not mean that I approve of whatever they are doing. But if I cannot really help them in any constructive way then I do not have the right to criticize them just for the heck of it.

[Al Zulfiqar]

areef,

your last response has shown what u really are... after all the pseudo-intellectual arguments criticising the reformists for not providing the right socio-cultural environment etc etc for fanatic bohras to defect in hordes and join the reformists, u have exposed yrself and shown yr true colours. why all this false and cringing sympathy for the reformists on the one side and criticising them on the other and talking about such crass things such as jamans and blah blah blah, when u are yrself someone who is sitting on the fence and lecturing others?

yr sudden change to street-level language and tone has finally betrayed yr true personality. beneath yr superficial veneer of sophistication and education, yr 2 masters degrees and all that pretense, u know what u are? u have yrself described it best...A RAT'S ARSE!!!

yr opinions, writings and posts are unworthy of attention and will be completely ignored from now on.

[Aarif]

AZ AZ AZ..

Calm down.. Take a deep breath. First of all I have never criticized true reformists like Mr. Insaaf or Mr. Engineer anywhere on this forum.. It is fake ID villians like you who turn me off.. And it is your vanity that makes you more useless then a typical bohra. So please do not blame me for that...

I am still awaiting the glorious list of your acheivements as a reformist apart from translating first stanza of Aati kyaa khandala in lisaane-dawat. Do you remember what happened last time when I asked you that??? You ran away to Khandala... And then after couple of months re-surfaced back on this site... Please do not insult the reformists and their movement by calling yourself a reformist... You are nothing but a loud mouth without balls...

And as I have said in my last post I still give a rat's arse to what cowards like you think about me... So goahead and write more crap.

[like_minded]

Areef,

As far as I know, zulfi bhai has never claimed to be an active reformist, as a matter of fact most people here are NOT reformists, but free thinkers, people who understand the difference between right and wrong.

[like_minded]

On an individual level one can still fight Kothar.. by non co-operation.

Stop filling their coffers by denying them sabeel and vajebat.

Avoid attending majlis, darees as these gatherings are a waste of time, money and energy.

In whatever little way we can, we must fight, and not bother about the consequences. I know, its not easy, but nothing in life is easy... atleast here, we can preserve our self-respect, dignity and honour.

[Aarif]

As far as I know, zulfi bhai has never claimed to be an active reformist, as a matter of fact most people here are NOT reformists, but free thinkers, people who understand the difference between right and wrong.
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Br. LM,
I really appreciate the way you write your posts. You are a free thinker and you always maintain your civility. I respect you for that.. However, AZ always tries to Police the discussion by cornering people and intimidating them. If you read my posts then you will realize that I have never supported Kothar in anyway. I also, understand the difference between right and wrong. And if AZ is a free thinker then he needs to respect other's opinions as well.. There is no need to brand people as Kotharis or Reformists. We all belong to the same community and we should strive to improve it in whatever best possible way. I do my part by avoiding paying unneccessary money to kothar in every possible way. You must be doing it as well..

My point is we should fight against Kothar and Syedna and not against the community. This is where I have a difference of opinion with others out here who leave no stone unturned to abuse the community in every possible way using the tool of anonymity provided by this site. Even the reformists say that they are part of the community and want to reform it. If someone hates the community so much then he/she is better off getting out of it PERIOD Hope you get my point..

[like_minded]

My point is we should fight against Kothar and Syedna and not against the community

Bro Areef

The disease called psycophancy is well spread in our community and I think we should fight it. Look, Kothar is nothing but the reflection of the community's minds, so, unless we fight it, we can never liberate ourselves from the slavery which Kothar has over the years imposed on us.

The dawoodi bohra community on the whole is responsible for the present plight that we are in.. without their money and following, Kothar can never be in the position that they are in at present. Just blaming the Kothar and fighting them is not enough. The fight has to be against the community people as well, to make them understand the true worth of life, self-respect, dignity and help them get over their conditioned minds.

Bringing about reform is nothing less than a service.. and in that respect we must serve.

[Aftab]

People deserve the government it chooses - America deserve Bush and similarly, bohras desrve the mafia kothar.How can than Aareef say that the communnity is blameless?

[Aarif]

LM and Aftab,

What do you think? Bohras cough up money every now and then out of their pockets because they love to do it... This is not even common sense. The only thing kothar is selling them is the community feeling. You remain a Dawoodi Bohra if you pay up... I am yet to come accross ordinary people (who form the major mass of our community) going to Kothar willingly and paying them...

The bottom line is that most of the bohras do not have a choice. Take your own examples. Even though you guys claim that you know the difference between right and wrong etc. you must be still paying money to the kothar. Now don't tell me you are doing that willingly.

However, let's assume for a moment that what you are saying is true. Even then cursing and abusing the community on this site is not going to help in any way. Spreading awareness in the best possible way is the only solution. By using abusive language at every possible opportunity is just going to take the mainstream bohras away from the truth that the reformists are trying to spread. Also, note that this is spoiling the image of reformists and their movement in the eyes if mainstream bohras.

People on this site love to compare themselves with the soldiers of Imam Husain. And these same people perform acts of Yazidiyat everyday on this site by using all the abuses they can for the community they are trying to reform.

LM,

In the past you have given examples of Gandhi and Husain. These men had the courage to stand up and face the truth. They did not hide behind fake identity and stood there like cowards cursing the British goverment or Yazid. It was their courage and qualities that made them GRT. The biggest quality of these GRT men was humility. You cannot say the same for the participants on this site can you???

[Aarif]

People deserve the government it chooses - America deserve Bush and similarly, bohras desrve the mafia kothar.

Who told you that Bohra community uses the democratic model??? Now you are not that naive are you???

[Humsafar]

Who told you that Bohra community uses the democratic model??? Now you are not that naive are you???

The point being made is not about democracy per se but how people end up with the type of leadership or authority they deserve. The function of choice is obvious in one (democracy) and implicit in the other (dictatorship).

The bohras being docile, gutless and lazy end up being exploited by the Kothar. And this is what it would seem they deserve because they do nothing to change their situation.