porus said:
I am more concerned about Allah's infinite mercy and infinite compassion to be demonstrated here and now especially to those who are in dire need of them.
The 'religious' have no answer for sufferers except that 'the Almighty has special plans for them'.
Human Suffering
Human Suffering
Re: Human Suffering
Question is - which people are you referring to. People all over the world are in need. Can we take examples one by one (nation wise or community wise) and see how we think God can solve those problems?
Re: Human Suffering
The question is why an infinitely compassionate and infinitely good God allows suffering among people and animals.
4 Examples:
1. Madeline Albright, President Clinton's Secretary of State, famously justified starving half a million Iraqi children caused by US sanctions against Iraq. Albright is doing very nicely, thank you. How does Quran justify the deaths of innocent children and enormous suffering caused to their parents, families and especially to their mothers? (Greater good for children in the hereafter and greater punishment for Albright in the hereafter?)
2. Quarter of a million perished in the 2004 tsunami and even greater number were made homeless and destitute. How does Quran justify this? (Visiting punishments for fathers' sins upon their children?)
3. A baby is born with a genetic defect or terminal disease causing suffering to the baby and parents. What does Quran have to say about this very real example repeated all over the world with regular frequency?
4. A thug shoots a bank teller paralyzing her from waist down ( a real example). What reason could God offer the victim?
I am aware of two reasons that 'religious' people might come up with.
1. There is a greater good involved in these 'evil'. We do not know God's mysterious ways. This is like saying that there is a perfectly good reason why the thug shot the bank teller even though we may not be aware of it. This would give a good opportunity for someone to display his compassion and come to the aid of the victim. That is hogwash.
2. God is infinitely good but because God has granted humans free will it is humans who create evil. This nicely ignores animal suffering. But if God, owing to his omniscience, knew beforehand that the thug was going to shoot the teller, why did he not prevent it? And why does an innocent victim have to suffer because an evil person misuses his free will? And what about the tsunami? How was that caused by persons misusing their free will?
By the way, science has proved, beyond all reasonable doubt, that there is no such thing as free will in animals or humans. Many experiments have demonstrated that we make up our minds to act and proceed to act even before we are conscious of the decisions that we have made. The explanation is that this has genetic, evolutionary adaptation to avoid false positives concerned with the survival of the human race.
4 Examples:
1. Madeline Albright, President Clinton's Secretary of State, famously justified starving half a million Iraqi children caused by US sanctions against Iraq. Albright is doing very nicely, thank you. How does Quran justify the deaths of innocent children and enormous suffering caused to their parents, families and especially to their mothers? (Greater good for children in the hereafter and greater punishment for Albright in the hereafter?)
2. Quarter of a million perished in the 2004 tsunami and even greater number were made homeless and destitute. How does Quran justify this? (Visiting punishments for fathers' sins upon their children?)
3. A baby is born with a genetic defect or terminal disease causing suffering to the baby and parents. What does Quran have to say about this very real example repeated all over the world with regular frequency?
4. A thug shoots a bank teller paralyzing her from waist down ( a real example). What reason could God offer the victim?
I am aware of two reasons that 'religious' people might come up with.
1. There is a greater good involved in these 'evil'. We do not know God's mysterious ways. This is like saying that there is a perfectly good reason why the thug shot the bank teller even though we may not be aware of it. This would give a good opportunity for someone to display his compassion and come to the aid of the victim. That is hogwash.
2. God is infinitely good but because God has granted humans free will it is humans who create evil. This nicely ignores animal suffering. But if God, owing to his omniscience, knew beforehand that the thug was going to shoot the teller, why did he not prevent it? And why does an innocent victim have to suffer because an evil person misuses his free will? And what about the tsunami? How was that caused by persons misusing their free will?
By the way, science has proved, beyond all reasonable doubt, that there is no such thing as free will in animals or humans. Many experiments have demonstrated that we make up our minds to act and proceed to act even before we are conscious of the decisions that we have made. The explanation is that this has genetic, evolutionary adaptation to avoid false positives concerned with the survival of the human race.
Re: Human Suffering
porus,
Very good questions. But answers exist for each one of these. But the very first thing I want to mention is that in none of the 4 points that you have mentioned are the humans going to be able provide answers or justice.
1. Madeline Albright, President Clinton's Secretary of State, famously justified starving half a million Iraqi children caused by US sanctions against Iraq. Albright is doing very nicely, thank you.
And she will continue to do nicely if left to humans. No one on earth has the power to do anything to her. Legally, she cannot be brought to justice. Instead of blaming God for her well being, wouldn't we be better off praying to God to punish her? And punishment on earth would be what? A few years of jail? A death injection? Death by hanging? Firing Squad? Would that be justice for starving half a million Iraqi children? I do not believe so. How about an eternity in the fire of hell? Now that is the kind of punishment that brings a smile to my face. I don't know about you.
How does Quran justify the deaths of innocent children and enormous suffering caused to their parents, families and especially to their mothers? (Greater good for children in the hereafter and greater punishment for Albright in the hereafter?)
Quran doesn't justify the deaths of any innocent. The prophet (saw) during his final Qutba spoke about the sanctity of Muslim blood. The Quran says that killing an innocent human is like killing the entire mankind. What happened in Iraq was inexcusable. But do not blame God for doing nothing. Blame those who did it. Earth is a place for trial and tribulation. What are we as muslims or as humans going to do so that injustice like this doesn't happen again? We haven't done anything. We let the same thing happen in Iraq all over again. It is not God's fault. It is our fault. God has created a place without any injustice but we have to first go through these trials to get there. We have to show that we are deserving of such a place. Are we? The least we can do, is pray to God to alleviate the suffering of the children in Iraq. Are we atleast doing that?
Now comes the second part of my answer. Consider the entire scenario in the context where God doesn't exist because if he did, then he wouldn't allow such things to go on. Well, in that case, we are screwed!!! More later.
Very good questions. But answers exist for each one of these. But the very first thing I want to mention is that in none of the 4 points that you have mentioned are the humans going to be able provide answers or justice.
1. Madeline Albright, President Clinton's Secretary of State, famously justified starving half a million Iraqi children caused by US sanctions against Iraq. Albright is doing very nicely, thank you.
And she will continue to do nicely if left to humans. No one on earth has the power to do anything to her. Legally, she cannot be brought to justice. Instead of blaming God for her well being, wouldn't we be better off praying to God to punish her? And punishment on earth would be what? A few years of jail? A death injection? Death by hanging? Firing Squad? Would that be justice for starving half a million Iraqi children? I do not believe so. How about an eternity in the fire of hell? Now that is the kind of punishment that brings a smile to my face. I don't know about you.
How does Quran justify the deaths of innocent children and enormous suffering caused to their parents, families and especially to their mothers? (Greater good for children in the hereafter and greater punishment for Albright in the hereafter?)
Quran doesn't justify the deaths of any innocent. The prophet (saw) during his final Qutba spoke about the sanctity of Muslim blood. The Quran says that killing an innocent human is like killing the entire mankind. What happened in Iraq was inexcusable. But do not blame God for doing nothing. Blame those who did it. Earth is a place for trial and tribulation. What are we as muslims or as humans going to do so that injustice like this doesn't happen again? We haven't done anything. We let the same thing happen in Iraq all over again. It is not God's fault. It is our fault. God has created a place without any injustice but we have to first go through these trials to get there. We have to show that we are deserving of such a place. Are we? The least we can do, is pray to God to alleviate the suffering of the children in Iraq. Are we atleast doing that?
Now comes the second part of my answer. Consider the entire scenario in the context where God doesn't exist because if he did, then he wouldn't allow such things to go on. Well, in that case, we are screwed!!! More later.
Re: Human Suffering
God doesn't need to offer any reason. This guy was a thug and shot her. If it hadn't been her, it would've been someone else that got shot.4. A thug shoots a bank teller paralyzing her from waist down ( a real example). What reason could God offer the victim?
Correct. That is hogwash. There is no greater good in these evil acts. There is no good reason for the teller getting shot except that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If the thug was caught and went to jail, well then that is the payment for his crime. The teller isn't going to get a better deal than that here. No law permits the paralysing of the thug from waist down which would be a just punishment. The teller has to wait till the hereafter for getting a good waist (if she is a believer), and a just punishment for the thug. One other thing the teller could do is to pray to God to cure her. Maybe, God will listen to her prayer and perform a miracle. Anything is possible for God. She has hope. If she doesn't believe in a God or blames Him for her state, then I am afraid, she doesn't have a waist and has no hope.1. There is a greater good involved in these 'evil'. We do not know God's mysterious ways. This is like saying that there is a perfectly good reason why the thug shot the bank teller even though we may not be aware of it. This would give a good opportunity for someone to display his compassion and come to the aid of the victim. That is hogwash.
Re: Human Suffering
You know, I love to watch Morgan Freeman's Through the Wormhole. I will tell you this, the crap that scientists believe in, would put a religious believer to shame any day!!By the way, science has proved, beyond all reasonable doubt, that there is no such thing as free will in animals or humans. Many experiments have demonstrated that we make up our minds to act and proceed to act even before we are conscious of the decisions that we have made.
I guess it is time to either let out all the murderers or put all of us behind bars.
Re: Human Suffering
Science is both a body of knowledge and the method for creating that knowledge. The method is more important than knowledge which always has the status of provisional 'truth' subject to change by continual application of the method.anajmi wrote: You know, I love to watch Morgan Freeman's Through the Wormhole. I will tell you this, the crap that scientists believe in, would put a religious believer to shame any day!!
Religious people 'know' absolute, unchanging 'truth' and their 'truth' is based on anecdotes reported over millenia but their 'truth', though unchanging and absolute, is different depending on which anecdotes you have been brainwashed into believing. Not so with science. You are welcome to follow its method and confirm or reject its provisional 'truth' and everyone benefits.
Science ought to put religious people to shame, that is if they had any shame to begin with. Their 'absolute truth' makes them immune from accepting not only science but 'absolute truth' of people with religious persuasions different from their own. See what religious fanatics do. There is no such thing as a scientific fanatic. His fanaticism survives or dies under intense application of the scientific method.
"vekhe pandit gyanee dhyanee, daya dharam de bande
ram nam japade khande gaushala de chande
te ke mein jooth boliya?"
Yes, brother, yes!
Re: Human Suffering
There is no such thing as an American Idol fanatic either. What is the reason for that? Why do only religions have fanatics?There is no such thing as a scientific fanatic.
Quran doesn't justify this either. Tsunamis are natural occurences. If we want to live in a world that obeys scientific laws then these things are going to happen and people living near disaster areas are going to suffer. This is part and parcel of the current world. If you want to live in a world where such disasters do not happen, then you will need to pray to God to create such a place and then give you room to live over there. We muslims refer to such a place as jannah and it is mentioned in the Quran.2. Quarter of a million perished in the 2004 tsunami and even greater number were made homeless and destitute. How does Quran justify this? (Visiting punishments for fathers' sins upon their children?)
Life in this world is about trial and tribulations as mentioned in the Quran. People will be tested in health and in sickness, in wealth and in poverty. If the parents are good to the child, and I have seen many that are, despite their suffering, they will be rewarded inshaallah. We have also seen cases where parents dump their children. They will be punished inshaallah. If there is no God, then the parents will suffer and die for nothing!!3. A baby is born with a genetic defect or terminal disease causing suffering to the baby and parents. What does Quran have to say about this very real example repeated all over the world with regular frequency?
Re: Human Suffering
I think instead of searching for a universal God particle, scientists should start looking for a universal God and his universal religion. Mankind would be much better off if scientists could explain God's purpose of creation and who will be those who enter heaven. I think we will see a drastic reduction in religious violence. We will find one religion and everyone will be happy.
Re: Human Suffering
We cannot begin to answer the question without exploring the cause of suffering----and the main cause is humans. "Sufferring" can be caused by natural disasters/laws of nature or by the actions of man. Natural laws can create suffering in the form of earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, droughts etc, but if you analyze these disasters----they are aggravated(made worse) by human actions/inactions. ----for example, when a school building collapsed in China due to an earthquake----it was because the contractors cut corners in the use of raw materials resulting in shoddy workmanship. They cut corners out of greed-----resulting in tragedy.......
or take the case of drought stricken countries whose population is dying because of lack of food while in many countries----food (rice) is thrown away in order to keep the commodity prices up....!!!!! or because a food does not meet a certain (sometimes arbitrary) import criteria---a whole shipload is wasted/burned.
The same can be said of genetic defects----the U.S. army (and Nato also) uses Depleted Uranium bullets/munitions/armaments----causing cancers, lukemia and genetic defects in babies and children----the same can be said for nuclear energy---whose waste disposal is problematic and causes environmental damage which leads to human health problems.
However, if humans are the cause of sufferring---then this means that we are also its solution. When we understand this---only then will we be able to improve our condition
or take the case of drought stricken countries whose population is dying because of lack of food while in many countries----food (rice) is thrown away in order to keep the commodity prices up....!!!!! or because a food does not meet a certain (sometimes arbitrary) import criteria---a whole shipload is wasted/burned.
The same can be said of genetic defects----the U.S. army (and Nato also) uses Depleted Uranium bullets/munitions/armaments----causing cancers, lukemia and genetic defects in babies and children----the same can be said for nuclear energy---whose waste disposal is problematic and causes environmental damage which leads to human health problems.
However, if humans are the cause of sufferring---then this means that we are also its solution. When we understand this---only then will we be able to improve our condition
Re: Human Suffering
so why does God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful....not stop us from doing such harm?
---because God gifted us with free-will, intelligence, and an inherent predisposition to goodness. It is upto us to use these gifts for the benefit of all of God's creations. For God to take away our free-will would be an oppression and God is Most Just----therefore, he does not oppress.
If we are created predisposed to goodness---why do we harm/cause sufferring?
---because we fall away from right belief. Right belief points us to God's will. God's will=Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.
Then why did God give us free-will?----without it, we would have no option but to do God's will.
---Because God is most Compassionate, Most Merciful, he gifted us with liberty ---the ability to make choices-----but with this liberty comes responsibility. It is upto us to use our liberty wisely and to fulfill our responsibilities to God........
---because God gifted us with free-will, intelligence, and an inherent predisposition to goodness. It is upto us to use these gifts for the benefit of all of God's creations. For God to take away our free-will would be an oppression and God is Most Just----therefore, he does not oppress.
If we are created predisposed to goodness---why do we harm/cause sufferring?
---because we fall away from right belief. Right belief points us to God's will. God's will=Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.
Then why did God give us free-will?----without it, we would have no option but to do God's will.
---Because God is most Compassionate, Most Merciful, he gifted us with liberty ---the ability to make choices-----but with this liberty comes responsibility. It is upto us to use our liberty wisely and to fulfill our responsibilities to God........
