A question for the progs

[wise_guy]

I would bring forth this topic and ask a question to all the progs who think that the abdes are foolish who are paying crores to Huzurala's (TUS) hazrat

1. If the person who is willingly and happily paying the money to the Dawat, who are you (the progs) who dont pay a penny to ask for the accountancy of such funds.

2. I have never seen anyone who has paid money to the Dawat and gone bankrupt, infact I have seen people whose life has been filled with barkat and more barkat due to the dua of Huzurala (TUS).

3. You may ask, where are those funds going. I have some relatives who were in financial need and were helped by the Dawat through the Amatullah trust. To be specific, on of my relative wanted a sewing machine, she got the cash from the trust. Another relative who wanted to buy a flat, got financial assistance and was able to buy a flat though not an expensive one but was sufficient according to her needs.

4. What about the Bhendi Bazar redevelopment project where people will get free flats. I know, you all will argue that they will profit from selling the flats meant to be sold in open market, but the efforts to get all the clearance for the redevelopment was a herculean task which I believe could have involved crores of rupees changing hand. Where do all those crores came upfront before the profit could be made from selling all the flats.

5. All the foreign governments are paid huge amounts (I believe and think so) in the name of development funds by the Dawat so that Mumineen in those countries could live and go about their business peacefully. I believe this to be one of the outgo of the funds.

6. I would also like to bring this point forward. In one of the suburbs of Mumbai, people were given free flats to live and were told to move from the slum areas but the people sold the flats and went on to live in the slum area agian. Now who would you blame for this. Do you expect Maula (TUS) to wield a stick and run after all such people.

7. I stay in US and have seen youngsters who are born in the US and have graduated or attending reputed universities who are also following deen strictly (I have observed that they dont have an iota of problem keeping beard, praying namaz, paying wajebat). They are staying on the right path and not going astray chances of which are huge in this country. There have been cases where children have gone astray for worse.

I would like to conclude, that the Dawat is going on smoothly with the influence of our beloved Huzurala(TUS) everywhere and a few jealous people who dont like it are wishing to bring it down which I believe would never happen. Its going on since ages and people have sacrificed lives as in the case of Ahmedabad where many common people have been killed for following Dawat. In this age, I dont think that Dawat will go down. I know that many bad things are happening in the community which I wish that Allah taala teaches a lesson to those who are doing it.Remember, Allah ke ghar der hai, andher nahi..

I conclude by praying for a long life for Huzurala (TUS) and his Mansoos (TUS)

Regards,
Wise guy

[Kaka Akela]

Dear Mr. Wise Guy:
I being an ignoramous and talking to a wise guy is above my head, so please forgive me if I make no sense to you.
All the point by point that you have written is typical brain washed abde talk. I live in Houston (in USA as well) and have never seen anything like development funds given to foreign govts so we can live free of hassel from the govt. this is utter nonsense in my opinion, please tell us just one incident of this happening in USA. All your talk about about kothar buying flats or giving money to help some one is all hogwash, what they give is 0.01% or less of what they take but they make sucha big deal about it that a wise guy like you knoows all about it, even though they tell that your left hand shouldn't know what you right did in charity. They have spent millions on wall street lawyers to safeguard there funds, properties in USA but none on any poor family. I could go on and on but it makes no sense to me to argue with a wise guy.

[humanbeing]

1. If the person who is willingly and happily paying the money to the Dawat, who are you (the progs) who dont pay a penny to ask for the accountancy of such funds.

I m willingly and happily paying all the requested taxes. I have a valid Ejamat card with all dues clear remark. I m asking for accountability. I don’t “doubt” any misuse of funds, I “trust” jamat office holders for optimum use of funds in “Khair na Kaamo”. Yet I wish to see income and expenditure statements. What is your objection or justification from showing accounts ?

3. You may ask, where are those funds going. I have some relatives who were in financial need and were helped by the Dawat through the Amatullah trust. To be specific, on of my relative wanted a sewing machine, she got the cash from the trust. Another relative who wanted to buy a flat, got financial assistance and was able to buy a flat though not an expensive one but was sufficient according to her needs.

I agree ! A gentlemen in Surat wanted to open a computer shop, he was granted INR 3 lacs for initial capital. He is from below middle-class background. I don’t deny good deeds in the community. But What is right is right .. and what is wrong is wrong.

5. All the foreign governments are paid huge amounts (I believe and think so) in the name of development funds by the Dawat so that Mumineen in those countries could live and go about their business peacefully. I believe this to be one of the outgo of the funds.

Yes ! big funds (bribe) is paid to government officials so that local jamat can continue its business of collecting funds without accountability. Any institution cannot collect funds without approval from the Ministry of Kuwait. Any fund collected shall be declared to the ministry and its purpose. Huge sums of wajebaat and other taxes collected from bohras in Kuwait stands illegal and are remitted clandestinely to India through “hawala” which is again illegal in both countries. Common Bohra mumins are working hard, legally and within rules of the government, also No governments have any animosity towards law abiding bohra citizens / expats who wish to live and trade peacefully.

[wise_guy]

Dear Mr. Wise Guy:
I being an ignoramous and talking to a wise guy is above my head, so please forgive me if I make no sense to you.
All the point by point that you have written is typical brain washed abde talk. I live in Houston (in USA as well) and have never seen anything like development funds given to foreign govts so we can live free of hassel from the govt. this is utter nonsense in my opinion, please tell us just one incident of this happening in USA.

I forgot to mention "except western countries" where such donations are not required.

My point of view is, if they are doing wrong, Allah is all knowing and all seeing. What goes round, comes around. If they are doing wrong, they'll receive the consequences. But my dear Kaka, u seem to be more frustrated whereas the ones who are paying are enjoying the Duniya and Deen altogether without qualms. I am following the Dai as my ancestor did. I am not a die-hard abde either but balance my deen and duniya.

Tell me one thing, what have progs achieved till date. They just keep on posting on this forum against the Dawat and even abusing the Dai which I dont consider as PROGRESSIVE at all.

[wise_guy]

Dear Mr. Wise Guy:
All your talk about about kothar buying flats or giving money to help some one is all hogwash, what they give is 0.01% or less of what they take but they make sucha big deal about it that a wise guy like you knoows all about it, even though they tell that your left hand shouldn't know what you right did in charity. They have spent millions on wall street lawyers to safeguard there funds, properties in USA but none on any poor family. I could go on and on but it makes no sense to me to argue with a wise guy.

I would like to say that, the learned people in the Dawat would be more accountable to Allah subanahu than to us. They would also have to face Allah subanahu some day or another. Anyways, the Islamic ideology is that, all things on earth is delusion and transitory and we are here for the trial and our final destination is the life hereafter and who knows this better than them. They are also under trial. They will also be accountable to Allah subanahu one day.

[ozmujaheed]

Wise guy, by your statements, kothar has the god given right to be opaque in its dealings!

You have decided to be an abde willingly, that is ok, but the rest have their legal freedom and right to seek explanation and elect or appoint their administrative representatives

Your reluctance for freedom, transparency is not supported by mainstream Islamic governance as practised , so unless there is criminal intent , why not just disclose , if zadas are swindling and they declare, let abdes allow them hefty commissions. If majority bohras want their diais family to leave extravagantly let it be agreed democratically .

Why to smoke and mirrors, fairy tales and spin, distorting Islamic fundamentals.

About bribing foreign government , apart from breaking law how can you consciously encourage, this is terrible to practise , promote and ignore.

[bohra_manus]

Dear Mr Wise_Guy,
May be you have chosen to see only one side of the coin.
I agree, recently some funds have been made available to poor families in India (I have some relatives who did get some help) but there are countless cases of collection by force.
I specifically object to your statement:

1. If the person who is willingly and happily paying the money to the Dawat, who are you (the progs) who dont pay a penny to ask for the accountancy of such funds.
Can you tell me why Maula only visits (ziyafat) at rich peoples houses?
Can you show me when/where Maula has visited any middle class family house for ziyafat?
Wajebat's are collected by gentle force at least in the West (may be even in Gulf) where the amounts are dictated by the local Amil, if you dare to pay only what is acceptable to you, it is refused, and you know the consequences.

[SBM]

Wise_Guy
I had posted some question with regard to your posting in Houston Jamat plus and I am still waiting for the replies before I refute some of your posting here. BTW I am E Jamaat card carrying member who pays Sabil and I call myself 23/10 Bohra attend only 23rd Lailatul Qadar and Ashura but pays the full amount, so I do have the right to criticize.

[Al Zulfiqar]

wise guy,

you are the not the first typical abde and overly wise guy asking this same tired and by now retired question.

now i have a few questions for you, since you seem to be a shia, but a completely ignorant, brainwashed and misguided one.

1. is the dai higher in rank than any imam or prophet? none of the imams or prophets had anything to hide and were not only completely transparent in their worldly lives, but anyone could approach them and ask to know the accounts of the baitul maal. in fact ali was legendary in his openness and sincerity to such an extent that he did not go to bed without updating the accounts of the baitulmaal and used his own little candle to balance his books. no one during ali's life ever had an occasion to find fault with him nor accuse him of embezzlement or misuse of community's funds. he was always accessible to answer anyone's questions on accounts and to show his books to them.
2. is the dawat a secretive and club like organisation that only fee paying insiders can ask questions and 'outsiders' - non members - should mind their own business? if insiders dare not ask for fear of ostracism and excommunication, and outsiders are told to take a hike, does your argument hold any water? do you think we are all fools?
3. did islam progress and was the message spread because the prophet and ali adopted a similar stance? "hey, keep to your own frigging religion and mind your own bloody business??"
4. what do you mean that 'daawat is running smoothly?' is it a business corporation which is bringing in a million-fold ROI (return on investment)? and why does it need to pay bribes to crooks, politicians and corrupt govts when bohras are peace loving folks and syedna is an "ambassador for peace?"

[ghulam muhammed]

If the person who is willingly and happily paying the money to the Dawat, who are you (the progs) who dont pay a penny to ask for the accountancy of such funds.

The words "willingly" and "happily" are distortion of truth and should be replaced with "coercively" and "fearfully".

I have never seen anyone who has paid money to the Dawat and gone bankrupt, infact I have seen people whose life has been filled with barkat and more barkat due to the dua of Huzurala (TUS).

There are numerous examples to the contrary which have been highlighted on various threads on this forum. Further to counter your (un)logic I can firmly say that I too have seen scores of people "whose life has been filled with barkat due to the dua of "Lord Balaji, Sai Baba, Aasaram bapu, Late Satya Sai baba, Hanuman, the monkey god, Ganpati, the elephant god, the snake on Shiv's body etc etc". Hence business tycoons like Vijay Mallya, Mukesh Ambani, Birlas and Laxmi Mittal are not fools (like abdes) to offer billions of dollars worth ornaments to the idols of balaji, sai baba etc.

[Al Zulfiqar]

i can quote atleast 20 cases from my circle of friends, family and acquaintances who have indeed become poor inspite of their showering money on syedna. it will not be nice to gloat on their fate however.

all i can say is that syedna only surrounds himself with the rich and powerful, so you no longer see these washouts who rue their days of prosperity and influence. no one now acknowledges them from the kothar and they are treated as pariahs and has-beens. a good description of the way they feel now is like a 'soiled toilet paper', used and tossed away contemptously.

[ghulam muhammed]

If the person who is willingly and happily paying the money to the Dawat, who are you (the progs) who dont pay a penny to ask for the accountancy of such funds.

A stupid logic needs a stupid answer :-
If a talibani is willingly and happily enrolling himself as a suicide bomber, who are you to oppose and question his beliefs as he is not pouncing on you and detonating the bomb ?

[humanbeing]

Hi
During Ramadan, paying wajebaat is talk of the town, sorry fear of the town !! I have personally experienced, in socials circles my friends fret over negotiating wajebaat and also make lame excuses to amil on how to make it a smaller amount.

There is a preparatory bayaan on wajebaat to encourage people. Most of the exaggerated examples of big shot amount and financial mojizas blurted out by that cheat has no substance or proof.

A relative in Calcutta had to sell of part of his property to pay up hiked wajebaat, inspite of his requests to lower the amount than of previous years. Instead he was brainwashed / hypnotized to pay up the hike. Now he sits justifying counting his normal business profit as barakaat
“Dil Behlaane ke Liye Khayaal acha hai ….”

[profastian]

If the person who is willingly and happily paying the money to the Dawat, who are you (the progs) who dont pay a penny to ask for the accountancy of such funds.

A stupid logic needs a stupid answer :-
If a talibani is willingly and happily enrolling himself as a suicide bomber, who are you to oppose and question his beliefs as he is not pouncing on you and detonating the bomb ?

What a stupid analogy. My dear GM, you oppose the Taliban because he "is" pouncing on you and trying to shove his idealogy on you...