You seriously need to go back to your Arabic classes.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
I have said that ultimately, I am the source. I consult history as related by both the Sunni and Shia and come to my own conclusion.
As far as I am aware none of the Panjatan has explicitly claimed infallibility. But I am open to correction.
However, Sayedna once related an episode described by Qadi Noman (he did not cite the book) which comes close to Nabi claiming 'infallibility' for himself. Once while Nabi was distributing 'maal', a person, unhappy with what he was given, complained to Rasulullah that Nabi was not being 'fair' to him. Rasulullah said, "If I do not do justice, who would do it?" That is the first part of the hadith. What happens later is not relevant to the issue at hand.
So, let us come back to the issue at hand which is the male plural and female plural shall we?
If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.Adam wrote:PORUS
I have said that ultimately, I am the source. I consult history as related by both the Sunni and Shia and come to my own conclusion.
Profprofastian wrote:If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.Adam wrote:PORUS
I have already established that the Dawoodi Bohra interpretation is incorrect based upon ayahs from the Quran. I have also shown that your sources have been corrupted. Anything you say, might not be reliable at all if coming from those same sources.Yes, the male plural is for both only Males OR Male and Female.
Our Dawoodi Bohra interpretation is firstly Panjatan (Males and 1 Female) & their progeny.
I am entitled to my own interpretations and I have the right to seek and question my beliefs. In fact, it is my duty to do so. In that enterprise, I seek the wisdom of Masters both of the past and present, Muslims and non-Muslim. Ultimately I am responsible for my views. Not others from whom I seek wisdom.profastian wrote: If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.
Does not the Quran exhort us to ‘ponder over things’ too? Who did the great philosophers of the Fatimid era follow in re-interpreting the Quran in Neo-Platonist fashion. In this, I am of the opinion that the Fatimid Imams were students of these philosophers not their teachers. And they used their authority to rubber-stamp what they learned from their philosophers.Adam wrote:This, according to me is Un-Islamic, rather more of a "Philosopher" who only listens to himself.
Islam teaches us to "follow". Not make our own conclusions.
Thank you for pointing out those verses. These are ayaat 33:36, 33:21, 53:3 respectively.Adam wrote:Yes, this example what we believe, it shows that Rasulullah is Masoom, ie doesn't make a mistake.
A few more ayats:
(وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة اذا قضى الله ورسوله امراً ان يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم، ومن يعصِ الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبيناً
(Prophet makes the decision and no one has a right to contradict it. = Masum)
(لكم فى رسول الله أسوة حسنة
Everyone must follow the Prophet = Masoom (Allah would never say to follow someone who makes a mistake)
وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحي
Every word the Prophet speaks is from Wahye and never wrong.
Now Adam's next step will be to relate the above ayats to the dai :-Adam wrote:Yes, this example what we believe, it shows that Rasulullah is Masoom, ie doesn't make a mistake.
A few more ayats:
(وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة اذا قضى الله ورسوله امراً ان يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم، ومن يعصِ الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبيناً
(Prophet makes the decision and no one has a right to contradict it. = Masum)
(لكم فى رسول الله أسوة حسنة
Everyone must follow the Prophet = Masoom (Allah would never say to follow someone who makes a mistake)
وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحي
Every word the Prophet speaks is from Wahye and never wrong.
The whole of the Quran is already under question by those who do not believe in the Quran or the infallibility of the Prophet (saw). Those who believe in the Quran to be the word of Allah do not need to believe in the infallibility of the prophet (saw). This notion of independent infallibility is idiotic because the prophet (saw) never said or did anything that wasn't with Allah's permission or command. Consider it this way, if I have an infallible master and I only do what my master commands me to do, does that make me infallible too? Of course not.If we do not, then the whole of Quran comes into question.
Prophet was Masum only in religious matter since he was under Allah's guidance. In worldly matters he was just wise leader. Prophet was asked to advise how to plant date saplings and they followed his guidance. Saplings did not survive and prophet told farmer that farming was not his job.Adam
(Prophet makes the decision and no one has a right to contradict it. = Masum)
You have a right to criticize but no right to pass judgements.porus wrote:I am entitled to my own interpretations and I have the right to seek and question my beliefs. In fact, it is my duty to do so. In that enterprise, I seek the wisdom of Masters both of the past and present, Muslims and non-Muslim. Ultimately I am responsible for my views. Not others from whom I seek wisdom.profastian wrote: If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.
As I have said, many of my beliefs are not my own but the result of brainwashing, initially in childhood and later by significant others including the media. Hence the need to constantly examine them. I invite everyone to exercise their right to criticize and question my beliefs and interpretations. And I have the right to criticize and question the beliefs and interpretations of others whether they participate here or not. That is the purpose of this forum.
And of course, you are entitled to your beliefs and interpretations but I seriously doubt that they are yours. As for interpretations, you already admit you rely entirely on others. If you do not want them commented upon, do not participate here. You will be blissfully unaware of what is being discussed here.
By the way, learn something about the meanings of the Quranic words Kafir and Mushrik. And understand why someone, nominally a Muslim, could open himself to charges of being called Kafir and Mushrik.
Believe me its not youAdam wrote:@Al Zulfiqar
Is it me or does his comments keep getting immature?![]()
There is no independent evidence that the Quran is Allah's word except the word of the Prophet. If you do not believe the Prophet to be infallible, how can you guarantee that he has not been fallible in transmitting the Quran?anajmi wrote: The whole of the Quran is already under question by those who do not believe in the Quran or the infallibility of the Prophet (saw). Those who believe in the Quran to be the word of Allah do not need to believe in the infallibility of the prophet (saw). This notion of independent infallibility is idiotic because the prophet (saw) never said or did anything that wasn't with Allah's permission or command. Consider it this way, if I have an infallible master and I only do what my master commands me to do, does that make me infallible too? Of course not.
Does Quran say that?Muslim First wrote: Prophet was Masum only in religious matter since he was under Allah's guidance. In worldly matters he was just wise leader.
What does it matter whether Quran says so or not, if he is not infallible then he could have made it that up too.porus wrote:Does Quran say that?Muslim First wrote: Prophet was Masum only in religious matter since he was under Allah's guidance. In worldly matters he was just wise leader.
Because the infallibility of the Quran is guaranteed by Allah in the Quran. The prophet (saw) has never said that "I guarantee the Quran is the same that I received from Allah". Does he say that? What do the first couple of ayahs of the second surah of the Quran say? Are they the words of the prophet (saw) or the words of Allah himself? And do not make a mockery of Allah by making him dependent on an infallible human for the correct transmission of his Quran. Allah needed the best human not to guarantee transmission, but just so that it would be easy for the people to trust him, which is what you are lacking. There are no guarantees over here. Just faith!!There is no independent evidence that the Quran is Allah's word except the word of the Prophet. If you do not believe the Prophet to be infallible, how can you guarantee that he has not been fallible in transmitting the Quran?
Quran says, obey Allah and obey the prophet (saw). Which means that you have to obey the Quran and you have to obey the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). The sunnah clearly mentions the hadith that bro Muslim First talked about. None of these require the prophet (saw) to be "infallible".Does Quran say that?
Absurd logic!anajmi wrote:Because the infallibility of the Quran is guaranteed by Allah in the Quran. The prophet (saw) has never said that "I guarantee the Quran is the same that I received from Allah". Does he say that? What do the first couple of ayahs of the second surah of the Quran say? Are they the words of the prophet (saw) or the words of Allah himself? And do not make a mockery of Allah by making him dependent on an infallible human for the correct transmission of his Quran. Allah needed the best human not to guarantee transmission, but just so that it would be easy for the people to trust him, which is what you are lacking. There are no guarantees over here. Just faith!!There is no independent evidence that the Quran is Allah's word except the word of the Prophet. If you do not believe the Prophet to be infallible, how can you guarantee that he has not been fallible in transmitting the Quran?
I am not sure what that even means anymore. Was Hazrat Ali's heart cleansed in a similar fashion? No. How about Hazrat Fatima and her sons who are also infallible according to your logic? Either all their hearts were cleansed, or cleansing of heart doesn't lead to infallibility (whatever the heck that means).rendered infallible
If the prophet (saw) had been tasked by Allah to write the Quran in his own words without the direct download from Allah via Jibraeel (as), infallibility would be a requirement for the prophet (saw). I do not agree with the infallibility of the prophet (saw). The Quran is protected by the Almighty the one and only infallible being which is Allah.Once you accept Muhammad's claim that they are from Allah then everything in the book becomes eternal truth for you. And one truth in the book is that Muhammad is infallible. If you do not agree with that then it follows that Quran also in fallible, notwithstanding its claim that it is infallible.
I do not have any lingering doubt in my mind about whether the Quran was rendered faithfully or not. Consider this, inspite of all his supposed infallibility, the prophet (saw) couldn't read or write. He taught the Quran to people who memorized it and wrote it down. The prophet (saw) couldn't validate what they were writing down was a faithful rendition or not could he?If you do not agree that Muhammad is infallible then there will remain a lingering doubt about whether Muhammad rendered the Quran faithfully.
Does the Quran state that prophet Muhammad (saw) was infallible? Can you give me the word "infallible" from the Quran or one of its translations in English? Infallibility is a bottleneck created by people who need an idol that they can see and worship. This is the problem that Islam came to get rid of in the first place.Does Quran state that Muhammad was fallible except in transmitting the Quran?
Of course he did. The incident about the crops is very well known. Unless you do not consider that a part of the definition of "infallible", which is why I have been asking you to give me a definition of "infallible".Does Muhammad say that?
Is that the definition of infallible? One who acts in complete faith is infallible? What does that mean?In fact, the historical evidence is that Muhammad acted in complete faith that he was infallible.
KakaKaka Akela wrote:Surat Maida : (5:67)