Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

[Kaka Akela]

Dear MF : WAS

Yes it is in Surah Al Kaferoon but it is an independent Ayah by itself and can be used for whatever and wherever, it is not a continuation of previous ayat. it is not the same as head bone is connected to the neck bone.

Regardless of this Ayat, you are still playing the same game of " my deen is better than your deen". Please stop this and move on to other constructive and meaningful dialogs. Thank you

[Muslim First]

Regardless of this Ayat, you are still playing the same game of " my deen is better than your deen". Please stop this and move on to other constructive and meaningful dialogs. Thank you

Respected Kakaji, AS again
It is not my Deen or your Deen. It is Deen of Muhammad SAW, HZ Ali and next 2 or 3 Generations.Any problems with Ayas of Qur'an or Ahadith which were posted by me? If you think you have better argument, please post it.

I can post more to support what Prophet preferred. but I will wait for your Daleel.

[Muslim First]

Dear Kakaji,

Here is entire Sura Shakir version and comment by Pooya (Both Shia-ut-Ali_
Sura 109 Aya 1 to 6


[Shakir 109:1] Say: O unbelievers!
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 109:1]
Some of the leading disbelievers of Makka had proposed to the Holy Prophet a compromise between Islam and their ancient faith such as they conceived it, so that their idols might also have an honourable mention in the adoration of the worshippers. The Holy Prophet resisted all appeals to worldly motives, and stood firm to his message of eternal unity of Allah. This surah breathes a spirit of uncompromising abhorrence to idolatry. There can be no common ground between the worship of "the one" and the many- monotheism and polytheism.

[Shakir 109:2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 109:2] (see commentary for verse 1)
[Shakir 109:3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 109:3] (see commentary for verse 1)
[Shakir 109:4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 109:4] (see commentary for verse 1)
[Shakir 109:5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 109:5] (see commentary for verse 1)
[Shakir 109:6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 109:6] (see commentary for verse 1)

There are Muslims who use fragmented passeges of Holy Qur'an to promote sacterion views.

[Kaka Akela]

Dear MF:

What is your purpose in posting the Surah al Kaferoon and it's translation by Shakir; Do you think I have no access to such things myself?
By doing that you are exactly doing what you are accusing others of, of creating sectarian superiority in following the deen of Rasulullah S A, which has taken many coloration over the 1400 years, if it is not the deen then you are trying very hard to prove that your coloration is better than my coloration? Rasullullah S A performed salaat both ways, you adopted one way and we adopted the other, so get off with this in-fighting and do something meaningful.
going on re-gurgitating the same thing makes it very distasteful.

[Muslim First]

Dear MF:

What is your purpose in posting the Surah al Kaferoon and it's translation by Shakir; Do you think I have no access to such things myself?
I do not think you are allowed to read ot think by your self. You have re-gurgiated what you were taught in secrete Sabaks.
Remember during revelation there were belivers and non belivers. So complete sura was addressed to Non belivers. I have not come across a single tafsir where it is used to justfy secterian POV.
By doing that you are exactly doing what you are accusing others of, of creating sectarian superiority in following the deen of Rasulullah S A, which has taken many coloration over the 1400 years, if it is not the deen then you are trying very hard to prove that your coloration is better than my coloration?
That is not a case. This thread was started by a non Bora. HUS posted standard Shia defense. I and anajmi mearly presented POV supprted by Qur'an and Ahadith.
Rasullullah S A performed salaat both ways, you adopted one way and we adopted the other, so get off with this in-fighting and do something meaningful.
See GM's post quated below:
going on re-gurgitating the same thing makes it very distasteful.
So be it

The point that everyone has raised on this subject is the "Preference" of Prophet (s.a.w.). He (s.a.w.) prefered that muslims should pray 5 times daily, now combining them MAY not be wrong but it is obviously NOT prefered by Prophet (s.a.w.) Hence muslims should do what is most liked by him.. As someoene pointed out that Prophet (s.a.w.) combined prayers in certain circumstances only, hence we should examine those circumstances and analyze the ones with the current times so as to see whether are they in line with the circumstances in Prophet's time.

Dear Kakaji
I an Sure you Have read this? Looks like did not register! Or in one ear and out another. Perhaps you need more proofs.
Wasalaam

[humble_servant_us]

MF
First you said

Prophet combined it without apperant reason few times

Now you say.

By this does it not mean you really cannot combine the prayers?

If i read the above two statements , It seems you want to say that we cannot combine the prayers but apparantly prophet(pbuh) did without reason. I need not add anything more to this, it is self explanatory.

gm

As someoene pointed out that Prophet (s.a.w.) combined prayers in certain circumstances only, hence we should examine those circumstances and analyze the ones with the current times so as to see whether are they in line with the circumstances in Prophet's time.

This is not correct, prophet(pbuh) combined prayers without any circumstantial reason.

[profastian]

deleted

[anajmi]

I don't think this will ever end. I believe that people who pray 3 times on a regular basis, are following the prophet (saw) also, but will earn less sawab than those who pray 5 different times.

[humanbeing]

HI Anjami

Lets leave the weight age and quality of Namaz to be judged by Allah. Lets just pray Namaz as advised ( 3 times or 5 times) as long as our intent and effort is honest in offering Namaz.

I have asked a sabak muallim on the similar question and he answered that, namaz can be performed at its 5 appropriate time as well 3 combined times. Both of them are correct, what matters is number of namaz remains 5 .. as prescribed in Islam.

When I questioned him, if one wishes to pray at separate 5 times, he mentioned no issues if one wants to pray that way too. I did not get into comparison mode (them Vs Us).

So there is no fixation with 3 times or 5 times, however as matter of practice and in some cases belief it has become 3 times habit. Now that is human limitation or convenience !

[anajmi]

Lets leave the weight age and quality of Namaz to be judged by Allah. Lets just pray Namaz as advised ( 3 times or 5 times) as long as our intent and effort is honest in offering Namaz.

Unfortunately, if we start doing that, people will start presenting it as an excuse to pray namaz in yoga style 3 or 5 times a day. It is a simple analysis to lead to that conclusion. Wudhu is supposed to be a key portion of namaz and there are many hadith stating the benefits of wudhu. People who pray 3 times a day perform wudhu only 3 times whereas those who pray 5 times perform wudhu 5 times a day. This is just one example.

[ghulam muhammed]

have asked a sabak muallim on the similar question and he answered that, namaz can be performed at its 5 appropriate time as well 3 combined times. Both of them are correct, what matters is number of namaz remains 5 .. as prescribed in Islam.

Will you combine the 3 meals in a day by eating all of it at one time or eat separately at 3 times ?

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro. gm,

a time will come when abde regressive bohras will combine all 5 namaaz into one as instructed by muffy the "qabr listener".

the justification will be based on this fact: we go to toilet just once a day, dont we?

[Muslim First]

Brothers Humanbeing, HUS
AS

Let us go over what Mainstream Islam POV on prayer rimings.

5 Prayers are mentioned in Qur’an.
See my Post No.: 5221 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:52 am where I have quoted br. Porus’s post.

Conclusion: As per Qur’an there are 5 Prayers without doubt.
All Muslims except Agakhanis agree.

Here is Farmaan of Imam Ali regarding prayer times’

A letter from Hazrat Ali to his governors - from the Nahjul Balagha
Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Ice (Isha) prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.

While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.

Sunnis do observe this timings and Shias should do so since Ali is First Khalifa for them.

Now prophet also told us to pray at its earliest times as in this Hadith
From Shahih Bukhari

Narrated 'Abdullah: I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause." 'Abdullah added, "I asked only that much and if I had asked more, the Prophet would have told me more."

I live in Boston and here are prayer times for today.

Sunni Prayer time for March 29, 2012

Date--------Day--------Fajr-------Sunrise------Dhuhr-----Asr------Maghrib----Isha
29Thu-------------------5:12--------6:31---------12:49-----4:22------7:08----------8:27

Ase prayer time Hanafi Madhab is 5:16

So earliest time for me to pray Dhuhr would be 12:49 PM

Earliest time to pray Asr would be 4:22 PM and 5:16 PM if I was following Hanafi Madhab.

Similarly I would be praying Maghrib at 7:08 PM and 8:27 PM

For 12ver Shia here are prayer rimes.

From: http://albatool-fatima.com/Prayer%20Sch ... ton-MA.htm
For Date: March 29, 2012

Date-----Dawn---------Sunrise----------- Noon-----------Sunset---------Maghrib---Midnight

29--------5:13-------------6:32---------------12:49------------7:06--------------7:21-----12:04

Notice Asr and Isha times are totally missing. If Shia young man wants to pray Asr and Isha separately he would not know times of Asr or Isha.

Now did prophet mentioned benefits of separate prayers?

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If there was a river at the door of anyone of you and he took a bath in it five times a day would you notice any dirt on him?" They said, "Not a trace of dirt would be left." The Prophet added, "That is the example of the five prayers with which Allah blots out (annuls) evil deeds."

Shia would get benefit for only 3 times to blot out (annuls) evil deeds.

Here is regret of a Sahaba predicting cheating in prayers by Umma.

Narrated Ghailan: Anas said, "I do not find (now-a-days) things as they were (practiced) at the time of the Prophet." Somebody said "The prayer (is as it was.)" Anas said, "Have you not done in the prayer what you have done? Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him why he was weeping. He replied, "I do not know anything which I used to know during the life-time of Allah's Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not offered as it should be)."

Now in this day and age we have Sunnis only praying Fird prayers and neglecting Sunna and Nawafil prayers coming late or skipping Khutba before Jumma prayers.

Shias combining prayers permanently and no trace of ASr or Isha times in their prayer time tables.

Bohras combining prayers and giving more weight to prayers for long life for their Maulana.

I have nothing more to say.

Wasalaam

[humble_servant_us]

I don't think this will ever end. I believe that people who pray 3 times on a regular basis, are following the prophet (saw) also, but will earn less sawab than those who pray 5 different times

Thanks for acknowledging shias are atleast not wrong. Lets leave the sawaab for Allah(swt) to decide .

[anajmi]

We should always try to earn more sawab.

[profastian]

I don't think this will ever end. I believe that people who pray 3 times on a regular basis, are following the prophet (saw) also, but will earn less sawab than those who pray 5 different times.

A new fatwa by Mulla Najmi

[anajmi]

No Fatwa. Just simple logic. Too difficult for abde idiots to understand.

[profastian]

A person leading prayers in Janabat. Not fit enough to be Prophet's Khalifa. No Fatwa just simple logic. But too difficult to undertand for idiot najmi,

[anajmi]

So you are saying that your Dai leads prayers in janabat?























Sorry, just trying to post senseless, idiotic, out of context, immature, childish, stupid one liners like you.

[profastian]

So you are saying that your Dai leads prayers in janabat?

I take it that you accept that omar(your beloved khalifa) led prayers in janabat




















Sorry, just trying to post senseless, idiotic, out of context, immature, childish, stupid one liners like you.

[anajmi]

So you are saying that your Dai leads prayers in janabat?

I take it that you accept that omar(your beloved khalifa) led prayers in janabat

I take it that you accept that your infallible Dai led prayers in janabat, since you haven't opposed it right?

[Peace]

Please please please stop using abusive language. It does not suit to any muslim to continuosly use abusive language. If some one doesnt stop abusive language then it is not necessary to reply with same language. Please tolerate and dont degrade yourself.

[ghulam muhammed]

This is not correct, prophet(pbuh) combined prayers without any circumstantial reason.

The Prophet (s.a.w.) combined prayers during journey and it was never a NORM because if that would have been the case then He (s.a.w.) would have ALWAYS prayed 3 times which definately is not the case. Moreover, as believers of Mola Ali (a.s.) we should also ask ourselves the question as to whether Mola Ali (a.s.) prayed 5 times or combined the prayers into 3 ? The answer is quite obvious. Hence I feel that combining prayers is only under certain unavoidable circumstances and should not be a regular feature. This practice further widens the divide in our Ummah which is already split into numerous sects.

[Muslim First]

Now you are allowed to combine prayers in rain or travelling. Prophet also combined prayers without any reason few times.
Shias use this as excuse to combine prayers all the times.

There is a very clear hadeeth narrated by Ibn Abbas [ra] on this issue:

Ibn `Abbās said: “Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) combined between the Zuhr and `Asr prayers and between the Maghrib and `Ishā’ prayers in Madinah without there being rain nor fear.” [Sahīh al-Bukhārī (510) and Sahīh Muslim (1151)]

The ruling I follow now is that it is permissible to combine prayers if there is hardship, so long as one does not do so habitually

A scholar explains this Hadith:

Ibn `Abbās was not traveling nor was there any rain, but he mentioned this narration as justification for combining his prayers. He knew that there was no rain, but Ibn `Abbās was involved in something important for the Muslims as he was teaching the people what they needed to know about their religion and he believed that if he stopped at that time and came down from the pulpit, the opportunity would be lost. He deemed that the activity he was engaged in permitted him to combine prayers as the Prophet (peace be upon him) combined prayers in Madinah without there being fear or rain but for some other necessity…

All the hadīth indicate that he combined prayers to make things easy for his people. Therefore, combining prayers is permissible if otherwise there would be some hardship that Allah had lifted from His nation. Combining prayers due to debilitating illness is all the more permissible. The same applies to the one who cannot maintain his purity for two prayers, like the woman whose bleeding continues past her menstrual cycle and the like.

[profastian]

Now you are allowed to combine prayers in rain or travelling. Prophet also combined prayers without any reason few times

The prophet woke one day in a jolly mood. He thought that although all my actions are from God and have a hikmat behind them, but what the heck, I will just combine my prayers today without any reason and confuse my Umma till kingdom come. I gotto have my fun too you know.

[anajmi]

Abde idiots have been confused by infallible Dais and hidden Imams. The followers of the sunnah of the prophet (saw) are not confused.

[TBG]

AoA,
I thought that it was very clear that we can only pray 3 times during the times of war, travelling and rain. On travelling too, my understanding is that it is not compulsary that you should/must pray only 3 times. If it is true hardship and inconvenience then you combine. If you are in a hotel whole day while travelling i dont see why you should not pray 5 when it is so convenient. 5 times have been clearly explained by the quran so i dont see why there is a discussion on 3 or 5. RasulAllah even showed how the combined prayers can be prayed again only in the event of war or travelling mostly.

thanks

[aligns]

What are you debating Progs? And do you really think you will get answers of such question on this forum, which is full of idiots (on both sides). I say this because everyone's knowledge is half-baked and still no one agrees to this.

Yes I do prayers 3 times a day (combined) and yes it is just for convenience sake. So what?
Now very often Progs starts comparing living style of current Dai and other bohras with the living style of prophet (saw), Ali (RA), imams etc. Frankly speaking, you can't do what prophet, ali, imams etc did in their times, you just can't live the life the way they lived, period. The times have changed. I am not giving this as an excuse for my convenience, but just highlighting the point that a lot has changed and we cannot do anything about it but progress with times. But still our beliefs have not changed, we still read Quran, do namaaz, salaat, hajj etc. and that's all is expected from a true muslim.

By saying that Prophet did 'something' in this way and we should also do it EXACTLY the same way is like preaching 'Wahabism'/'Salafism'.

If you want to eliminate all wrongdoings in shia's, why not rename this forum as 'Progressive Shias'? It would be a better title.

[Muslim First]

By saying that Prophet did 'something' in this way and we should also do it EXACTLY the same way is like preaching 'Wahabism'/'Salafism'

Does it not say "follow Qur'an and follow Prophet"
So you say Wahabi and Salafi follow Qur'an and Prophet and so do sunnis, Correct?

[Muslim First]

By saying that Prophet did 'something' in this way and we should also do it EXACTLY the same way is like preaching 'Wahabism'/'Salafism'

Does it not say "follow Qur'an and follow Prophet"
So you say Wahabi and Salafi follow Qur'an and Prophet and so do sunnis, Correct?

And Db's not always.