Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:47 am**

Saif53 wrote:
Saeed al Khair wrote:Yes! As per ilm al Haqaiq, Mazun and Mukasir both are playing part in the process of Najaat of Arwah.
According to this process, the Nass of Mufaddal is Batil and Nass of Qutbuddin is valid.
Come on of Qasre Jaali, and Jamea Saifyahin the battlefield Haq v/s Batil, we will discuss Kutub al Haqiq and its fixed Tasawwur
Doodh Ka Doodh aur Paani Ka Paani Hu Jaiga Aur Mufaddal Bhaag Jaiga
So what happened to the Mukasir Syedi Husain BS? Didn't he go astray as per your belief?

SMB 's mazun and mukasir ended up on two different sides. That crushes one fundamental element in the Misaaq (teeno maraatib naa sahebo, no khaaw kasam aney kaho naa'm).
This is the real crack, the core of the faith that has been ripped. This is the End of story of certainty and 100% perfection on who is appointed by the Dai (you pick who) as your Maazoon or mukasir.

It's only a matter of time before more holes in the dam that holds the core belief crack up.

When the dirty water is not purified, we fall trap to throwing the baby out with the bath water. Retain the good, discard the evil, and move on.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:39 am**

alam wrote:SMB 's mazun and mukasir ended up on two different sides. That crushes one fundamental element in the Misaaq (teeno maraatib naa sahebo, no khaaw kasam aney kaho naa'm).

Correction. The Misaq doesn't state that. It states as follows:
"aa sagla umoor aney maratib nu iqrar karo and kaho na'am".
That's the fundamental difference.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:48 am**

According to Adam, a Dai can appoint an impostor in one of those positions and keep him there for 50 years and that's allowed by our glorious daawat texts. In fact, anything goes actually as long as you can point to a daawat text reference that only a select few know about. The rest of us are meant to live our lives as blind sheep and just do as you are told. Don't think - don't analyse - don't question ... just do what you are told and you will be in jannat in no time.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:19 am**

kimanumanu wrote:According to Adam, a Dai can appoint an impostor in one of those positions and keep him there for 50 years and that's allowed by our glorious daawat texts.

True. Not just according to me.
Rasulullah SAW did the same, and kept them in much higher positions than the Mazoon.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:42 am**

Adam wrote:Rasulullah SAW did the same, and kept them in much higher positions than the Mazoon.

SMS should follow the Prophet and Imam Ali, and must accept the SKQ in the high position which SMB and STS appointed. Did prophet even throw laanat on them ? did he boycotted them .. beat thier followers up.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:44 am**

Adam wrote:
alam wrote:SMB 's mazun and mukasir ended up on two different sides. That crushes one fundamental element in the Misaaq (teeno maraatib naa sahebo, no khaaw kasam aney kaho naa'm).

Correction. The Misaq doesn't state that. It states as follows:
"aa sagla umoor aney maratib nu iqrar karo and kaho na'am".
That's the fundamental difference.

Ok - these are exact words - granted. Umoor aney maraatib includes rutba naa sahebs and Umoor, therefore encompasses far more - making the point of violation of misaaq even more valid.
However you try to escape saif53 aka Adam aka qasre saki Raza naa Saheb, there is a flaw here - and after taking name of all 3 sahebs Dai mazun and mukasir, jointly, we took misaaq. Well, until SMS starts changing more of the misaaq.
Either way, if terms of misaaq are not flawless, the hole in the dam expands

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:46 am**

Adam wrote:"aa sagla umoor aney maratib nu iqrar karo and kaho na'am".
That's the fundamental difference.

wow .. what fundamental difference does that make ? please provide your twisted intrepretation in light of the developments suiting to SMS's position.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:08 am**

The argument that Rasulallah SA kept Abu bakr close to him is presented as similar to the fact that SMB kept sSKQ close to him --- Well this is just another BIG hole in the dam.

If that's the case, why not doubt the Maazoon and mukasir (OR WHOEVER ELSE) of SMS is being kept close for takiyat purposes. If once in history the appointed Maazoon or mukasir is not to be trusted, why should I trust SMS or SKQ To make the right choice of Maazoon or mukasir or MansooS or any other advisers or anything?

The problem really is very simple. When things go wrong, go terribly wrong, like it has in our community, whichever way you look at it, we humans try to relieve our mental cognitive dissonance by Simplistic methods (blame, demonization, resorting to a higher purpose e.g "Hiqmat"). Not to speak of endless pointing to "evidence" that supports "my theory or inclinations" and endless pointing to evidence that refutesthe opposing view.

At the very least, we can acknowledge that's what's being attempted here . . .

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:19 am**

@alam

The argument that Rasulallah SA kept Abu bakr close to him

So, do you believe Abu Bakr was good or bad?

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:32 am**

Adam wrote:@alam
The argument that Rasulallah SA kept Abu bakr close to him
So, do you believe Abu Bakr was good or bad?

Adam Mian. Abhi to Laanat bhej rahey ho. 400 saal key baad yeh ho ga. Video # 2 dekhye:

http://www.alavibohra.org/mix%20videos% ... maulaa.htm

This is the same Ali bin Ibrahim who was Laanati at the time of split and now are Sheer or Shakar !!!

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:03 pm**

Adam aka saif53 aka Some bhaisaheb from Saifee mahal,

You brought up the example of Abu bakr and rasul- e-khuda - in the context of making a similarity between those times and the present times between SMB and Mazoon Saheb.

Out of the entire post , all you have to ask is whether Abu Bakar was good or bad.
Well well. . . This is a good demonstration that when there is dialogue and arguments presented, the AMILS AND USTAADS bhai sahebs and KOTHARI fists and muscles come into play, with a response to an attack on faith, or an attempt to corner and sidetrack the debate and turn it into "oh so you believe abc".

I could have asked you the same thing. Do you believe Mazoon of SMB was good or bad? That would be the end of a rational discussion. It's reductionist thinking that prohibits sound judgement.

Try engaging the discussion without bringing "belief" and "faith" as a tool to silence dissent or rational discussion.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:06 pm**

Adam wrote: So, do you believe Abu Bakr was good or bad?

To which rutba did Rasulullah (SAW) appoint him and was with ilham? Did he also take misaq of his followers at the time to accept him in this appointed rutba?

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:16 pm**

Adam wrote:@alam
The argument that Rasulallah SA kept Abu bakr close to him
So, do you believe Abu Bakr was good or bad?

Okay let me go out on the limb
Abu Baker NEVER issued Laanat on Ali despite the differences
Abu Baker never asked anyone to carry him on the PALKHI
Abu baker never forced any one to do Salaam Qadamboosi to him
Abu Baker never used Band Bajaa to come to Masjid
Abu Baker never had AARTI done on him
Abu Baker did not issue BARRAT on anyone who said Kalema/Shahda (Muslim Ummah)

NOW COMPARE THIS TO YOUR PAY MASTER SMS and tell us who is good or bad

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:19 pm**

Even Imams did not have this much pomp and vanity as SMS appears to be showing. Is it him or his inner circle who are doing all this palkhi, band-baja etc?

Also how big is Khuzema's following? Percentage wise any estimate?

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:16 pm**

KA786110 wrote:Even Imams did not have this much pomp and vanity as SMS appears to be showing. Is it him or his inner circle who are doing all this palkhi, band-baja etc?

Dawedar Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin (LA) is habituated to luxury, pomp and glory and band-baja. He is probably telling people to do more and more. No one can do anything without his approval, and in any case if he felt this is not right, he would have stopped this. Hence, it is clear he likes the attention and the bohras love the show. A simple supply and demand situation, really.

Posted: **Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:53 pm**

alam wrote:The argument that Rasulallah SA kept Abu bakr close to him is presented as similar to the fact that SMB kept sSKQ close to him --- Well this is just another BIG hole in the dam.

If that's the case, why not doubt the Maazoon and mukasir (OR WHOEVER ELSE) of SMS is being kept close for takiyat purposes. If once in history the appointed Maazoon or mukasir is not to be trusted, why should I trust SMS or SKQ To make the right choice of Maazoon or mukasir or MansooS or any other advisers or anything?

The problem really is very simple. When things go wrong, go terribly wrong, like it has in our community, whichever way you look at it, we humans try to relieve our mental cognitive dissonance by Simplistic methods (blame, demonization, resorting to a higher purpose e.g "Hiqmat"). Not to speak of endless pointing to "evidence" that supports "my theory or inclinations" and endless pointing to evidence that refutesthe opposing view.

At the very least, we can acknowledge that's what's being attempted here . . .

the above in bold is well known in human psychology as cognitive bias - all of us as human beings are prone to it.

Posted: **Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:30 am**

What happened with KQ followers?

suddenly they all crawled back under the rock from where they crawled out?

looks like there are two possibilities.

1) they realized KQ or MS both are chor and there is no point to defend one on another.

2) they have got instruction from fatemi dawat.com to avoid using this forum, because more they try to justify MB the more KQ fake dawat will get into trouble.

Posted: **Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:35 am**

Facebook pages of fatemidawat torch bearers.

Abdeali SK Qutbuddin https://www.facebook.com/abdeali.qutbud ... =tl_fr_box

Aziz Qutbuddin https://www.facebook.com/aqutbuddin?fref=tl_fr_box

Taizoon H Shakir https://www.facebook.com/taizoon.h.shak ... le_browser

Posted: **Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:01 pm**

Al-Noor wrote:What happened with KQ followers?

suddenly they all crawled back under the rock from where they crawled out?

looks like there are two possibilities.

1) they realized KQ or MS both are chor and there is no point to defend one on another.

2) they have got instruction from fatemi dawat.com to avoid using this forum, because more they try to justify MB the more KQ fake dawat will get into trouble.

Is it possible that they have said what they needed to say and don't care to repeat further?! I ran into an SKQ family recently at a social gathering where other mumineen were present. They seem to be thriving well enough! In fact those who did not want to speak to them, looked like they wanted to crawl into a hole in the ground! Those of us who were comfortable conversing with them, received the benefit of their charm and intelligence that had made them popular members of the jamaat before the fiasco.

Posted: **Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:22 pm**

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Al-Noor wrote:What happened with KQ followers?

suddenly they all crawled back under the rock from where they crawled out?

looks like there are two possibilities.

1) they realized KQ or MS both are chor and there is no point to defend one on another.

2) they have got instruction from fatemi dawat.com to avoid using this forum, because more they try to justify MB the more KQ fake dawat will get into trouble.
Is it possible that they have said what they needed to say and don't care to repeat further?! I ran into an SKQ family recently at a social gathering where other mumineen were present. They seem to be thriving well enough! In fact those who did not want to speak to them, looked like they wanted to crawl into a hole in the ground! Those of us who were comfortable conversing with them, received the benefit of their charm and intelligence that had made them popular members of the jamaat before the fiasco.

next time when you meet any of KQ family do ask them this question.

KQ always cried loud that mazoon and mukasir posts are really important but its been almost a year he has not declared any mazoon or mukasir yet for his own dawat, why?

Posted: **Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:50 pm**

Al-Noor wrote:
objectiveobserver53 wrote: Is it possible that they have said what they needed to say and don't care to repeat further?! I ran into an SKQ family recently at a social gathering where other mumineen were present. They seem to be thriving well enough! In fact those who did not want to speak to them, looked like they wanted to crawl into a hole in the ground! Those of us who were comfortable conversing with them, received the benefit of their charm and intelligence that had made them popular members of the jamaat before the fiasco.
next time when you meet any of KQ family do ask them this question.

KQ always cried loud that mazoon and mukasir posts are really important but its been almost a year he has not declared any mazoon or mukasir yet for his own dawat, why?

Why don't you ask them that!

Better to wait and choose well for these positions I think. But then, whoever he chooses, he can only do better than Mufaddal Saifuddin's spineless ex Mukasir and the morally decrepit current mukasir!

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:26 am**

objectiveobserver53 wrote:
Al-Noor wrote: next time when you meet any of KQ family do ask them this question.

KQ always cried loud that mazoon and mukasir posts are really important but its been almost a year he has not declared any mazoon or mukasir yet for his own dawat, why?
Why don't you ask them that!

Better to wait and choose well for these positions I think. But then, whoever he chooses, he can only do better than Mufaddal Saifuddin's spineless ex Mukasir and the morally decrepit current mukasir!

I emailed them many times and as usual they are so spine less they never bother to reply back, any ways no regrets, I was lucky enough to know that both muffy and khuzaima are both chor kaa bhai ghanti chor and there is no point of wasting more time on them, since you are fan of them mubarak to you.

good to find out that qutbis are now abusing mukasir to whome they gave misaq for good 50 years...any ways it was expected from them.so now they should not cry when mufaddali send lanat on their aqa khuzaima. while I send lanat on both.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:33 am**

Al-Noor wrote:good to find out that qutbis are now abusing mukasir to whome they gave misaq for good 50 years...any ways it was expected from them.so now they should not cry when mufaddali send lanat on their aqa khuzaima. while I send lanat on both.[/color]

heck of a laanat party ... muffy, kutbi, reformist, wahabi must get together for a roast !

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:35 am**

humanbeing wrote:
Al-Noor wrote:good to find out that qutbis are now abusing mukasir to whome they gave misaq for good 50 years...any ways it was expected from them.so now they should not cry when mufaddali send lanat on their aqa khuzaima. while I send lanat on both.[/color]
heck of a laanat party ... muffy, kutbi, reformist, wahabi must get together for a roast !

First understand what is lanat before commenting any thing, you are good at worldly comments when it comes to deen study hard.

Lanat is must on every oppressor and one who fights against HAQ

Curse on Iblis.
‘And surely on you is curse until the Day of Judgment.’
(Surah Hijr, 15:35)
‘And surely My curse is on you until the Day of Judgment.’
(Surah Suad, 38:78)

Curse on the Disbelievers.
a) General Curse
‘Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers and has prepared for them a burning fire.’
(Surah Ahzab, 33: 64)
‘Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all.’
(Surah Baqarah, 2: 161)

‘Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them. And Allah has cursed them and they shall have a lasting punishment.’
(Surah Tauba, 9:68)

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:20 pm**

For someone who claims not to care...Al-Noor sure spends a lot of time on this forum abusing SKQ and Mufs.... After having spoken to people on both sides, my conclusion is that people on SKQ side care about nothing but the truth particularly in their religion and people with Mufs don't give damn about anything other than themselves, their little social circle and their comfort zone. Self included! People like Adam only care about Mufs because they are heavily invested in this faith, system, call it what you will. One cannot but help admire the SKQ people for their idealism, regardless of how foolhardy or reckless that may appear to have been with their social standing.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:57 pm**

This Al-Noor looks like re-carnation of "Abuzer" who spoke form both sides of his mouth. Same style with green color font. I guess a zebra can't change his stripes. Al-Noor looks like a MS spy who has been instructed to say not so nice things about both sides but in a clever twist tries to make SKQ look or appear to be as bad as MS. This way he is trying to get those on sidelines to say both sides are the same so why not go with status quo and keep contributing to the MS gravy train. But we all know this won't work and he has now been caught with his pants down.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:39 pm**

OO53 so funny! "Reckless with their social standing..." Like there aren't 6.99 billion other people on this planet to socialize with

Still, your compliment is accepted. We are indeed a bunch of people with strong conviction. And yes we have sacrificed things such as our "social connections" so that we could hail as our Dai, one whom we did not secretly think of as a dumbass and liar.

We have moved right ahead and made new social connections and as you saw in that party, renewed old ones....why do I get the feeling that I know who you are

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:44 pm**

OO53,

I too admire the idealism of the SKQ side. And I respect them for that. They could have taken the money, my guess is a lot of money, and stepped away, but they choose to fight - they deserve our respect and support.

I am on the same side that you are currently, but, Inshallah, hope to take a stand and openly go to SKQ side at some point.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:48 pm**

think_for_yourself wrote:OO53 so funny! "Reckless with their social standing..." Like there aren't 6.99 billion other people on this planet to socialize with
Still, your compliment is accepted. We are indeed a bunch of people with strong conviction. And yes we have sacrificed things such as our "social connections" so that we could hail as our Dai, one whom we did not secretly think of as a dumbass and liar.

We have moved right ahead and made new social connections and as you saw in that party, renewed old ones....why do I get the feeling that I know who you are

TFY,

Don;t use such words for SMS. You all are better than the use of such words.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:02 pm**

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:OO53,

I too admire the idealism of the SKQ side. And I respect them for that. They could have taken the money, my guess is a lot of money, and stepped away, but they choose to fight - they deserve our respect and support.

I am on the same side that you are currently, but, Inshallah, hope to take a stand and openly go to SKQ side at some point.

What do you mean taken the money? You mean taken the money that Muffu's chamchas offered?

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