Ismaili Immamat

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

All you stated is not my interpretation of Islam. My interpretation is stated in a lot of posts which you refuse to read because it would slap you in the face.

pardesi,

Please don't cry about some Ismaili who died because he didn't have $10 to save his life. What was your living Imam doing at that time? Racing horses? I am sure he's got a lot of money made on those horses that he could've spared for this Ismailis life. Either that or I am assuming the Ismailis are running out of money to save one of their own that they have to start asking suicide bombers to donate $10!!

And as for the rest of your illegible post. What the heck are you talking about? Have you completely lost your marbles?

Let me try again

Do the Ismailis believe that the quran is the word of God or do they believe that it has been replaced by the Living Imam?

Can you give me the Ismaili interpretation of the ayah 2:282? - I think the answer to that is "NO".

Who would you ask if you needed clarification regarding some ayah of the quran?

Is it possible to communicate with the Living Imam regarding an ayah of the quran? I think the answer to that was "through proper channels". What are these channels? Have you tried going through one? Can I go through one? I want your Imam's interpretation of ayah 2:282. What do I need to do?

have the Ismailis simply given up on the quran and don't care too much about what it says or not?

Now as far as interest is concerned, yes I gave interest on my new cars which I have gotten rid of since then because I was not proud of what I did and will not try to justify my deeds because some suicide bomber killed some innocents. Ismailis are good at that and I will let them have the pleasure.

[jamanpasand]

Please spare us and go to your Aga Khani board.

[anajmi]

Actually that should've been my post. But I don't want you to go to your Aga Khani board. I want you to stay over here and expose yourselves.

[porus]

Interesting joust between enlightened Ismailies and the two Sunni bigots. It goes without saying that these two ignorant Sunnis do not represent the vast majority of Sunnis you would come across in your daily life.

You should also know about some of Muslim First's other beliefs:

Taawil/Batin is the last refuge of the scoundrels.

Shia believe that Jibrail erred for 23 years, without Allah correcting him, in delivering Quran to Muhammad; It was meant for Ali.

Prophet wished he could skip prayer and go and set fire to the houses of people who do not attend prayers.

In all the years he has been on this board making mischief, he has not contributed anything of note for Bohras except to spend his time being contemptuous of their beliefs and practices.

He has a copyright from Allah almighty for the word "Muslim". He can only apply it to the image he sees when he looks in the mirror. Almost everyone, except of course anajmi, will be found wanting.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Anajmi:
"pardesi,

Please don't cry about some Ismaili who died because he didn't have $10 to save his life."

I am not crying my brother. Just making you feel ashamed. He didn't die because he did not have $ 10.00, that was his fate. The point, which you completely missed, was that you lost an opportunity to prove that you cared and in return would have been rewarded by Allah. What would you say to Allah after you die? Would your response be similar if He asked?

As for my marbles - you really expect me to answer that? Okay. My marbles are in place where they belong and producing amply what they are supposed to and delivering in the right places. Yours, on the other hand, seem to be supplying their product to your brains.

Lets talk about something else. What would you say to the suicide bombers killing muslims in the name of Islam. Any comments? We can open another topic for this. The idea is to let everyone get involved with productive posts.
That is if you care to discuss something like that. If not, I think I am done with you.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by jamanpasand:
Please spare us and go to your Aga Khani board.

JP you know I am trying to end this discussion. I do not jump in to every discussion, only when it concerns the Ismaili Nizaris or my Imam I am here with my 2 cents. I think your post should have been directed to the others (ANAJMI & MF) as well.

I will shut up if they stop badmouthing my Imam.
I have no quarel with you. I dont come here to preach my beliefs.

Peace.

[jawanmardan]

Ok I will answer your question seriously:

Can you give me the Ismaili interpretation of the ayah 2:282?

Here is a basic interpretation of Isma’ili theology:

1) The Qu’ran is the “created” word of God, and is not “uncreated” as for example Sunni believe.
2) The Qu’ran is protected by God, and is uncorruptable.
3) The Qu’ran contains Zahir, and Batin, as pertaining it being Created (see number 1).
4) The Imam Interprets the Qu’ran, for the age we live.

Ayah 2:282; deals with interest, or Riba:

1) Interest rates are either set in the current finanal world by central banks or political leaders, and are held by value depending on national reserves of commodities, Gold, and foreign exchange, which fluctuate usally upward as PPP, and GDP growth does.

N,B: Thus if I borrow $100, in ten years if I pay $100 back it is worth less, and so the lender pays for the cost.

2) Islam forbids using Riba or any form of finance to gain advantage, and disadvantage people, and enslaving them in a cycle of debt. This is the essense of that Ayah for us.

If I borrow someone money, and Share in their risk to create a business as for example the Micro Finance division of the Agha Khan development network, and they loose the money or refuse to pay. There will be NO action taken against them. They are not trapped, they will just be refused a further loan.

However if they choose to pay back the money plus an extra charge, which they can afford, then this form of interest is acceptable, as the charge goes into financing other loans, and helps them out of poverty fir us it is acceptable.

another example:

Isma’ili Students in America come from poor Afghan families have a fixed sum positive payment loan, without it rising beyond interest rate levels (which creates a cycle of debt).

The loan enables them to go to university, they get earn a better life, and pay it back. If however they decide not to pay the money back no action is taken against them, again they are not trapped.

The proof is how sucessful our schemes have been in alleviating poverty.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Porush

Here is complete Hadith. I do not think these Hadith implies that the Prophet was arsonist but he gave such a importance to congregational that he would do such thing. Please read it correctly.

From Shahih Al-Bukahri Hadith No 1:167

Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is I was about to order for collecting firewood (fuel) and then order someone to pronounce the Adhan for the prayer and then order someone to lead the prayer then I would go from behind and burn the houses of men who did not present themselves for the (compulsory congregational) prayer. By Him, in Whose Hands my soul is, if anyone of them had known that he would get a bone covered with good meat or two (small) pieces of meat present in between two ribs, he would have turned up for the 'Isha' prayer.'

.

[jawanmardan]

I apologise for getting so worked up, I was not behaving with the proper adab.

Your entitled to see me as a Muslim acting in error that’s your right. However saying someone is non-Muslim is taking things too far.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 71: Narrated Abu Dhar:

I heard the Prophet saying, "If a Muslim accuses another of being an evil doer, or accuses him of Kufr, such an accusation will revert to him (i.e. the accuser) if his companion is innocent in the eyes of Allah (swt)."

Also read Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73, & Volume 8, Book 73, Number 126, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 125.

If I am not Muslim Allah will judge me accordingly; until then please do not make that accusation.

[jamanpasand]

My dear brother pardesi

Enough was discussed about your imam in the previous threads. Everyone knows that majority aga khani followers feel that he is a pious person. It is none of the others business if he runs race horses or gambles or drinks or have few divorces or changed the your religious rituals in the last few decades. Your defense for your imam will do no good on this board rather it will harm him more.

[pardesi]

Dear Brother JP,

Thanks for the kind words. This subject is worn out. But what would you expect if someone and specially one keeps dragging us into it by just mentioning Aga Khan out of nowhere or takes things out of context. I felt compelled to reply.

Thanks for understanding that we believe what WE BELIEVE. The new generation of Ismailis are not blind followers.

I will try to abstain from long posts if at all possible.

Thanks again.

Salaam.

Now watch the other side coming back hurling stones

[anajmi]

pardesi,

I don't think Allah is going to ask me about the Ismaili who died for lack of $10. There are millions out there dying of disease or hunger every day. I won't have to account for them either. However, your Imam will have to answer to Allah for his followers. The Ismaili died because your Imam couldn't spare an extra $10 for him. He will be the one who will have to give account.

I've said enough about suicide bombers killing innocents in the name of Islam but you don't seem to be capable of reading. Go read my posts again.

Now, can I get answers to my original questions?

jawanmardan,

I am not sure what ayah you are referring to but it is not 2:282.

Resident kafirs who no longer have anything useful to add should stay away. Or if you can't, then learn how to dodge from enlightened Ismailis.

[jawanmardan]

2:282] O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. ........ Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so.

Ok if your not discussing Loans you must have intended the rights of women.

First let me explain the Quran from our perspective. The Qu’ran literally translated as “recitation”, it is not a book, it was meant to be kept within the hearts of believers. In fact it was not written down until Uthman. It has no point A and point Z. It is a living book, it has no start and no end, rather it is cyclical.

If you read the Qur'an you will notice it has no single subject matter of focus, It’s not about the History, or Ritual Law etc. If you compare it to other religious texts; its subjects appear random, often jumping from one topic to another, and yet it repeats some points over, and over, and over.

The concerto of words in the Qu’ran are formed under its style called in Arabic, haqi’qa , or "formless essence." We view this as having a direct relevance to how it is interpreted; directions, and explanations of God can only be understood fully when they are repeated, over and over, in their various meanings, and then only within the human being put together.

In our tariqah taking an Ayah in isolation is not something we do, each Ayah forms part of this endlessly repeating pattern, of this “formless essence”.

Islam In this regard is a message based on a particular state of values. As forum writers we all occupy a diverse set of lives, and may not exist on the same continent, earn similar sums or even share cultures.

We are though in all likelihood men and women who exist in increasingly metropolitan spaces in mind and in physical space.

The majority of women work of ancient Arabia enjoyed many freedoms, but also many cultural restrictions, women today often work the domestic setting and are amongst the most competent and thoughtful operators in the financial, and commercial world.

My mother, is a eminent European professor of Financial law, a successful author, and a leader in her scholastic circle.

The role of women has changed, and the value we place on a woman’s capacity has changed; the modern woman can achieve more than her middle eastern counterparts, and women in a 1000 years will achieve more than women do today. The Ayah sets minimum rights but that they cannot be expanded taking into account our current circumstances holds back over 50% of the population of our Ummah.

Don’t write to me saying this was not part of your question, cos then I really will dodge the question…considering how much I have typed.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

That was quite a lot of dodging. However I still don't see the interpretation of

2:282] O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. ........ Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so.

All I read from your post is, ignore what the quran is saying and do what you want to. Give the quran some whacky term like "formless essence" and then give it any form you want. Nice.

[jawanmardan]

All I read from your post is, ignore what the quran is saying and do what you want to. Give the quran some whacky term like "formless essence" and then give it any form you want. Nice.

anajmi,

I am sorry you did not appreciate my efforts; I think I’ve already been found guilty in your eyes, and you have no genuine interest in the subtitles that a conversation such as this demands. Haq'qa or formless essence is accepted terminology to describe the Qu'ranic composition in Islam. Perhaps you’re not as knowledgeable as you believe.

I won't be responding to anymore messages on this thread; there seems no point.

I hope you learn to open your mind. In the words of Tina Turner 'I don't care whose right or wrong, I really do not want fight no more, so it's time for letting go"

To everyone else I apologise for loosing my cool earlier and look forward to learning about the Fatimids, the Bohra Progressive movement, and the Progressive Muslim movement in general, God willing together we will restore Islam, as the light upon the world.

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Would you agree that a man is physically and emotionally stronger than a woman?

That is relative to race and physical fitness. When was the last time you tried to arm wrestle a Russian gal ? How about an East Indian man confronting a woman from the Bronx ?

Does the Quran make puny men wear Hijab and be worth 1/2 of a woman if you fail the above ?

[anajmi]

Average,

When I said that, I wasn't considering you as an example.

jawanmardan,

Actually I am not at all knowledgeable. Even the translations that I quote are not my own. But lack of knowledge should not be confused with lack of common sense. I understood very well what you said. You said

The Ayah sets minimum rights but that they cannot be expanded taking into account our current circumstances holds back over 50% of the population of our Ummah.

What does that mean? Doesn't that mean that the quran is no longer valid? But since you can't say that without declaring yourselves as disbelievers you come up with "formless essence".

You said

My mother, is a eminent European professor of Financial law, a successful author, and a leader in her scholastic circle.

Are you implying that your mother turned out to be what she is by ignoring the teachings of the quran? I hope not. Are you suggesting that the quran holds women back? This inspite of all the ayahs that I have quoted earlier?

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by anajmi:
When I said that, I wasn't considering you as an example.

Well, then....

Originally posted by anajmi:that is a scientific fact.

is a false statment as it does not apply to puny Indian men...but PetroDollars makes you think you are an Arab, and a {B-I-G O-N-E} at that

[anajmi]

Average,

Have you ever considered replying only in Instant Graemlims? I think it would make more sense.

[Average Bohra]

Not to you, Hadiths don't contain them.

[anajmi]

Hadiths aren't written by Average Morons.

[Average Bohra]

You don't speak Arabic, you wouldn't know the difference.

[anajmi]

That last one was way over my head. I was asking myself, what the heck is this moron talking about? First he tells me that I haven't understood the hadiths. Then he tells me that I haven't understood the hadith because I don't know Arabic. Duh. Didn't I know that? That was the reason I bought a translation and not the one in Arabic.

[Muslim First]

.
JM Wrote

---“recitation”, it is not a book, it was meant to be kept within the hearts of believers. In fact it was not written down until Uthman.---

Please note that when Ismaili refer to their dead Imam they put S.A behind their name! BTW majority of Muslims use SA for prophets only. Here they have no curtsy to use RA (Rdi Allah Anho for SAhaba or Rehmet-u Allah for any deceased person). I guess they just cannot get over history
.

[Muslim First]

Give the quran some whacky term like "formless essence" and then give it any form you want. Nice.

That is all part of this "Esoteric, Batini, Taweel" Stuff (I guess last refuge of Ismali)
.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Pardeshi of Porus

Can you explain Jawanmardan's post of 07-18-2007 06:57 PM

Tere is too much Batin in it.
.

[jawanmardan]

It's better watching this from the sidelines....