Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"

[znanwalla]

MF...cut your crap ! You do not understand nothing !

If you guys don't understand Islam it is not our fault....go and read the ahadith of the Prophet ! for us Naboowat is an article of faith and the Shahada is clear - so your argument is idiotic that we do not consider the prophet and just Imam Ali. Without obedience to our Prophet our actions and deeds become useless and that is what is happening with you folks as you disobeyed the prophet and disobedience to him is disobedience to Allah Himself and we infact are clinging now to what the Prophet asked to hold onto whereas you have fallen in disrepute as per the Prophet's own ahadith...so stop barking at us - rather examine your own motives !

Also I have responded effectively about Imam ismail and the fallacy that surrounds it....either the posting was deleted or it is still there.....I asked you a clear question? if Ismaili had died in arabia then show us his tomb as it should be in arabia and not syria and you never answered ! So give us an answer and then let me have your email address so we can continue outside this forum.


If NASS is given to Ismail and even if he died (which is not the case as he had moved to Syria)Imamat passes onto his son and not sideways to anyone else and even some of the Sh'ia scholars are in agreement over this issue....everyone knows these except fools like you as then it would be on Ismail to do the NASS and not on people to decide anything regarding Imamat ?

I can show you from the Sh'ia Twelver articles the evidence from their own scholars that the theory of Ismail having died is on shaky grounds !

Just like your postings get deleted so do ours....if you have anything new to dialogue then do so but don't keep on repeating the same things over and over again as if you we haven't answered or are not able to do so when we have repeatedly given our answers.....in any case what business is that of yours? None ! so why don't you follow your own faith? or are you not happy with your own beliefs?

As for you being so hung up on your FIVE Pillars. I have told you and you are not reading it seems that over and above these FIVE we have a couple more including ADL/Tahara (ritual purification.and Walaya (Imamat) ....so you be happy with what you believe and let others pursue their own belief.....if you are so confident about what you wish to debate with us, lets move away from this forum and lets begin the debate or just vamosse and get lost if you are so scared....don't hide here and then whine all the time....zn

[pardesi]

Pardesi,

I absolutely have no problems with you following your faith in your way.

Now we are getting somewhere.

What I expect from you and other Ismailis is honesty..

We have always replied to your tricky questions honestly. What makes them sound dishonest to you is that the answers are not forthcoming to your liking. Your preconceived notions based on articles fed to you from various websites biased towards Ismailis and Ismailism is making everything we say sound like a lie.

Your Imam maybe your father and highly respected in your community but that does not mean that he is flawless and specially created by Allah with his noor.

Here again you are showing your hatred and bias. We are all humans and have our share of flaws. You are still commanded to respect your parents, especially mother, and give them their due and let Allah judge them for their flaws. I have always held this opinion about you that you have not understood the Noor, Imam, etc. What Allah has created with His Noor is evident to all. Did we ever say that our Imam is created by Allah with his Noor? Or anyone else for that matter? Show me where? My Imam is not only kept in high esteem by his followers but also commands respect from others, including your own Ulema, the ones that matter, Presidents, Kings and those in position of authority, even by the non-muslim community. People listen when he speaks. Those whose hearts Allah has sealed can't see or hear anything.

I respect and love my father. But also agree to the fact that he is a mere mortal and will live and die like any other mortal human being even if he is next to Allah for me... We respect and adore many people in our lives but it is unfair to raise them to a level of a demi god and than try to justify that stand using scriptures that clearly tell you not to do so... I hope you get the point...

While I get your point here it is also a fact that Ismailis do not worship Imams and therefore attributing demi god status is only a ploy of our enemies or misunderstood by some or misrepresented by others. You tell me which group your belong to? As far as using the scriptures to prove a point is concerned, we have refuted your views from your books, your sources and the Quran. You yourself insisted that we base our arguments on Quran and Islamic sources. So why complain now. The scriptures have been used to refute all that you have leveled against us without us twisting its meanings like your brother did. Remember the "could likely mean" burqaslip he used? to come to your defense. The same scriptures prove you and your stand as false and misguided. It all depends on which side of the mirror you are on.

[anajmi]

People listen when he speaks.

That is because he doesn't talk about hidden qurans and Vishnu Avataars. He talks about the same quran that these kings have and he talks about following the same sunnah that the kings have. His fairy tales are only for his stupid followers.

[pardesi]

People listen when he speaks.

That is because he doesn't talk about hidden qurans and Vishnu Avataars. He talks about the same quran that these kings have and he talks about following the same sunnah that the kings have.

So you too have been listening!! Good. I hope you learn something.

His fairy tales are only for his stupid followers.

And where could I find this book. Is it as voluminous and entertaining as Bukhari?

[anajmi]

So you too have been listening!! Good. I hope you learn something.

Absolutely. And have been learning a lot. Enough to start teaching about Ismailis, Ismailism, hidden qurans and vishnu avataars.

[anajmi]

And where could I find this book

Any jamatkhana. You will get it with a free sprinkle of phook nu pani.

[pardesi]

So you too have been listening!! Good. I hope you learn something.

Absolutely. And have been learning a lot. Enough to start teaching about Ismailis, Ismailism, hidden qurans and vishnu avataars.

Open up a madrassa then. You will find ignorants lining up to listen and learn from you.

[znanwalla]

so if his "fairy tales" are not for imbeciles like you but his own murids, why does it then irk you so much?...it shouldn't nah? but it is clear that you are burning inside you because you know he has something which others don't have...otherwise no reason why you should be jumping up and down !!!!...one only behaves in this manner when he knows what he is holding is way inferior than what others have...and this is called jealousy at its best !!!!!zn

[pardesi]

And where could I find this book

Any jamatkhana. You will get it with a free sprinkle of phook nu pani.

How do you know this? We do everything behind closed doors. How did you get in? Oh wait, the last agent you sent in was thrown out back in 1988. Things have changed since.

[znanwalla]

Good Najmi...so if you learnt something about Avtars then hopfully you will now know that it was OUR beloved Prophet who was the dasmo Avtar as per the scriptures and unless Jesus also misled everyone.....nobody has made any mention of the Mullahs or the caliphs huh!!! hey btw,some of you are waiting for the return of Jesus huh? why? wasn't Prophethood sealed? so if Jesus as you say will come back then explain how and in which capacity? are you not contradicting yourselves and the Quran?....and why would God have to send Jesus again? why don't you enlighten us on this belief of yours? did your Mullahs tell you all this fairy tales?...haven't you heard us saying openly that one of our pillar is "ritual purification"? don't you see how much more purified we are than you imbeciles with decayed hearts?....zn

[pardesi]

... You will get it with a free sprinkle of phook nu pani.

From Shahnama Islam by Hafiz Jallandhari

Isha parh kar chala beti ke ghar hadi zamane ka
Dar-e-Bait-Ali per Izn manga andar aane ka

pay tehzeebe ummat izn haasil karke sarvar ne
zia us ghar ko bakhshi zeenate mahrab o minber ne

bashafqat saada pani ka pyala ek mangwaya
dua dam kar ke khud thora sa paani nosh farmaya

diye paani ke cheentay seena o bazoo-e-haider per
yehi paani rasool allah ne chirka paak dukhtar per

Mohabbat or shafqat say bitha kar paas dono ko
dua ki ay khuda ye aqd raas aay dono ko

Ho inki nasl ya rab do jahan may khair ka baais
ye aqd khair ho kon-o-makan may khair ka baais

khudawanda inhen paakiza say paakiza tar kar de
aml may de asr inke iraday khair say bhar de

Yup, even the Prophet was in the business of "phoonk nu paani"!

[anajmi]

Open up a madrassa then. You will find ignorants lining up to listen and learn from you.

You got that one right. Only ignorants want to learn about Ismailis, Ismailism, hidden qurans and vishnu avataars.

[anajmi]

The prophet was also in the business of praying namaz five times a day. Besides, he asked his followers to pray namaz, not to sprinkle water.

[turbocanuck]

The prophet was also in the business of praying namaz five times a day. Besides, he asked his followers to pray namaz, not to sprinkle water.

Show us where the Paak Rasool used the word ....."namaz".

[Muslim First]

Turbo

For Allah's sake knock it off.

Namaaz is same as Salat.

Take care

[pardesi]

Pardesi: "People listen when he speaks."

Anajmi: "That is because he doesn't talk about hidden qurans and Vishnu Avataars. He talks about the same quran that these kings have and he talks about following the same sunnah that the kings have."

Pardesi: "So you too have been listening!! Good. I hope you learn something."

Anajmi: "Absolutely. And have been learning a lot. Enough to start teaching about Ismailis, Ismailism, hidden qurans and vishnu avataars."

Pardesi: "Open up a madrassa then. You will find ignorants lining up to listen and learn from you."

Anajmi: "You got that one right. Only ignorants want to learn about Ismailis, Ismailism, hidden qurans and vishnu avataars."

Go ahead then. Who's/What's stopping you. Atleast all the fools will be in one room.

[pardesi]

Turbo

For Allah's sake knock it off.

Namaaz is same as Salat.

Take care

Nope. Not acceptable. We need to see where it says in the Quran that Namaaz is same as Salaat.

Aah! What the hell. One more for you from Turbo I am allowed four per post!

[anajmi]

Actually, the prophet (saw) didn't use the word "pray" either. But who can explain these things to an ignorant Ismaili?

[pardesi]

Actually, the prophet (saw) didn't use the word "pray" either. But who can explain these things to an ignorant Ismaili?

Thank you for correcting your earlier statement.

[Muslim First]

Pardesi Bhai

Y Allah M

We are engaged in fruitless debate about Islamic Salat/Namaaz. On forum of this web site it has been shown that 5 prayer times are in Qur'an (I believe Br. Porus's post). Br. Anajmi has posted a Hadith from Hz. Ali RA on timings of 5 Prayers. The whole Ummah of Shia and Sunnis (except N Ismailis) have been faithfully performing 5 Salaat/Namaaz since days of Prophet SAW. Do you really want to waste time and storage spce of this web site of run by Generous people? Even if I post Ayas of Qur'an and Ahadith of Prophet SAW (Both Shia and Sunni Ahadit) you would impeach them by questioning Ahadit. Muslim Qur'an is already questioned by your fellow Ismaili. Names of honarable scribes and Sahaba's are slurred.

If you still sincerely want to learn about Muslim Salaat/Nammaz, Inshah Allah I will oblidge and Adminstration will consider ait as Daawa. IA I will keep it clean.

I bid you peace.

[pardesi]

Pardesi Bhai

Y Allah M

We are engaged in fruitless debate about Islamic Salat/Namaaz....

I bid you peace.

I agree. But you forgot that it was your brother, Anajmi, who brought this matter of "Namaaz" up out of nowhere and when Turbo questioned it you promptly came to his defense. I only tried to show you the mirror. My intent was never to escalate this thread into a debate of Namaaz/Salaat although your contentions are highly debatable. I am glad you realize we have been through this a lot of times. Besides, you can not teach us anything new.

[Muslim First]

My intent was never to escalate this thread into a debate of Namaaz/Salaat although your contentions are highly debatable. I am glad you realize we have been through this a lot of times. Besides, you can not teach us anything new.

(1.3-.015) = 1.285 Billion Muslims (Shia and Sunni) do not consider Salaat/Namaaz "highly debatable".

I have seen pictures of "one whose name I can not mention" performing Salaat/Namaaz. May Allah accept his prayers.

you can not teach us anything new.

Even Prophet SAW failed to teach some people including his own uncle.

I bid you peace again

[pardesi]

My intent was never to escalate this thread into a debate of Namaaz/Salaat although your contentions are highly debatable. I am glad you realize we have been through this a lot of times. Besides, you can not teach us anything new.

(1.3-.015) = 1.285 Billion Muslims (Shia and Sunni) do not consider Salaat/Namaaz "highly debatable".

Its not the Salaat that is debatable. It is the # of times and combining them as you and I understand. The Egyptians, from Al Azhar I believe, and also the Turkish authorities, back the argument in favor of three times. Hey, even Akbarali Maherally is in favor of 3 times. So it is "highly debatable". When I said you cannot teach us anything new I meant there is nothing new we can discuss on this topic of Namaaz/Salaat as we have been through all this a number of times.

Even Prophet SAW failed to teach some people including his own uncle.

Yup! The same uncle "YOU" consider an idol worshipping kaafir. Now we can debate over this if you would like in a separate thread. The last time this came up between us you ducked and I have all these texts from your books and sources gathering dust on my desk just waiting to be undusted.

[pardesi]

And may the peace come your way too!

[Muslim First]

The last time this came up between us you ducked and I have all these texts from your books and sources gathering dust on my desk just waiting to be undusted.

Wo afsana jise anzam tak laana na ho mumkin, ese ek Khubsurat mode de kar chodna accha.

Something like that. My apology to late Sahir for mengling his gazal

I bid you peace again

[pardesi]

Funny how you put it!

Its like pleading the 5th.

Whenever you're ready bro!

[Muslim First]

Pardesi

Have you read this

Good read, Read it with open mind.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id= ... lt#PPP1,M1
.

[turbocanuck]

(1.3-.015) = 1.285 Billion Muslims (Shia and Sunni) do not consider Salaat/Namaaz "highly debatable".

MF
Whose fault is it if 1.285 billion Muslims,Sunni and Shias (they are Muslim eh?) chose to swallow everything that the abusive Ulemas threw their way? forced people, maimed people who didnt follow "their" way, we have all seen what the murderous Mullahs do to little children in the Madrassahs ...Whose fault is it if the Billion plus Ignorants choose to ignore what is clearly prescribed in the Quran? 3 TIMES......... Now dont give me Hadithi references and "half baked transmissions and narrations".......can you prove it?i can prove it.........now if you prove that it is perspicuously prescribed in the Quran at 5 times, than you would be committing blasphemy for pointing out CONTRADICTIONS in the Quran......Go for it.

[Aarif]

We have always replied to your tricky questions honestly. What makes them sound dishonest to you is that the answers are not forthcoming to your liking. Your preconceived notions based on articles fed to you from various websites biased towards Ismailis and Ismailism is making everything we say sound like a lie.

Pardesi,
You can call my straightforward questions tricky... The problem with you guys is if someone asks you questions you take them in circles. You try to spin the answer in such a way that the person will never be able to reach to an obvious conclusion about your faith. I remember asking you straight forward questions on five pillars of Islam and whether Ismailis follow them or not. Now the answer to this kind of question would be either a simple yes or a no. E.g. for me five pillers of Islam are compulsory and I follow them to the best of my ability. I follow ramdaan by keeping all the 30 fasts. I pray salaat, recite Kalma, give zakat and Inshallah will one day go to haj. It is so simple. But you will write maybe 10 A4 size pages to answer these questions and I will still not know for sure whether you are holding on to these pillers or not...

Here again you are showing your hatred and bias. We are all humans and have our share of flaws. You are still commanded to respect your parents, especially mother, and give them their due and let Allah judge them for their flaws. I have always held this opinion about you that you have not understood the Noor, Imam, etc. What Allah has created with His Noor is evident to all. Did we ever say that our Imam is created by Allah with his Noor? Or anyone else for that matter? Show me where? My Imam is not only kept in high esteem by his followers but also commands respect from others, including your own Ulema, the ones that matter, Presidents, Kings and those in position of authority, even by the non-muslim community. People listen when he speaks. Those whose hearts Allah has sealed can't see or hear anything.

While I get your point here it is also a fact that Ismailis do not worship Imams and therefore attributing demi god status is only a ploy of our enemies or misunderstood by some or misrepresented by others.

Here is one link that I went through.. This guy is not an anti-ismaili so I hope you will not come with the bias excuse this time. See what he says about your Imam... Your Imam is no less than Allah according to him...

http://www.zimbio.com/ISMAILI+POET/arti ... S+NOT+MAKE

You tell me which group your belong to?

I am a muslim and follow Islam as per Quran

As far as using the scriptures to prove a point is concerned, we have refuted your views from your books, your sources and the Quran. You yourself insisted that we base our arguments on Quran and Islamic sources. So why complain now.

Yes, I asked you to prove your point particularly in the light of Quran. But than you went on to qoute Ahadith and other sources which you people criticize everyday on this forum. And that is what I call double standards.

Also, according to you the Quran that rest of the muslim world uses (apart from Ismailis) is corrupt and incomplete. Hence, I was expecting you to use the correct Quran which only Ismailis have access to. Apart from that why would an Ismaili like you go for Yusuf Ali's translation??? Your Imam who is bolta Quran should have already provided his Ismaili followers with his translation of Quran... And if you are using the translation by Yusuf Ali what is the role of your Imam in explaining the right meaning of Quran in modern times???

See this qoute from another link
http://www.amaana.org/imam/imamat07.htm

As explained in my intro pages this Grace, this Lamp spreading Light is none other than the Living and Present Imam of our time, Noor Mowlana Shah Karim Al Hussaini Hazar Imam. And as Ismailis, we are very fortunate indeed, to have been gifted with this unique opportunity to be called his spiritual children.

As Ismailis we are truly fortunate to have received this Grace over the centuries and we have been rejoicing this favor and that is why there is always a lot of Daandia Raas and dancing in our tradition!

So dear Pardesi,
You can play as much Dandia as you want but please do not try to mislead us...

[anajmi]

3 TIMES......... Now dont give me Hadithi references and "half baked transmissions and narrations".......can you prove it?i can prove it

Prove it from what? The fabricated quran or the hidden quran? Now watch the dimwit reply.