OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS

[anajmi]

porus,

You are right. There is no ayah in the quran which says that the earth is egg shaped. It is just an interpretation and not a very good one at that, I might add.

[Humsafar]

anajmi, I was referring to your "new mission" not "intellectuals". In any case "intellectual" is just a label, it doesn't mean anything to me.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

I am not sure what was tongue in cheek about that because that is absolutely my new mission. I am going to take care of these "scientists". And do not use too many quotations. "Scientists" might object to that.

[Mustansir]

Hey All,

For those, who may not have watched these videos before, here are the links. The first one is a short humble description of our planet - 'The Pale Blue Dot' by one of the best known astrophysicist Carl Sagan. And the second one is a very recent clip (released Dec 15, 2009) from the American Museum of Natural History, which shows the four dimensional mapping of the Known Universe, done through by astronomical observations based on the best-scientific research to-date. Thought many here would be interested in it so wanted to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1G ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0 ... r_embedded

[Al Zulfiqar]

thanks for posting these mustansir. astronomy is my favorite subject and carl sagan, fred hoyle, jayant narlikar and stephen hawking its giants. i remember a long series back in the 80's, i forget its title, The Cosmos, (maybe?) where carl sagan was the host and spoke as the images rolled in the background. it was fascinating to hear him speak and expound on the mind boggling facts and figures of the universe around us.

i had the good fortune to personally attend and hear a lecture series by jayant narlikar in pune, when he was the assistant to fred hoyle. a true scientist, he was very humble but a highly accomplished personality. i was lucky to have a brief conversation with him and when he leant of my passion in his subject, he encouraged me to visit him at the university and drop in anytime to take my interest further.

any subject when studied in depth, makes one realise in all humility how little we know and how much more we still have to learn. we are dwarfed by the universe around us and as newton once remarked, all we have picked in a lifetime of learning is a few grains of sand from the vast shores of the oceans around us.

[anajmi]

And yet some are ready to dismiss this great creation as a chance occurance. For eg. some scientists claim that a bunch of monkeys if given a typewriter and a million years, would be able to come up with the works of shakespeare. That is how, they say, the universe got created. Now I wonder, how many years or days would it take those same monkeys to come up with the theory of evolution?

[Safiuddin]

anajmi,

I did read the previous posts and it didn't appear that you were being sarcastic.
I truly did feel that you were being a bit naive in believing that a diety that man has created is responsible for the safety of thousands of people that fly in airplanes. We know today that the planet has evolved over millenia to become what it is today. The movement of continental plates creates earthquakes, not a god. Airplanes fly because the air pressure above the wing is less than that below it. A god doesn't provide the impetus.
Clear evidence of man's evolution and development has been found in countless fossil records. All records pertaining to gods were made by man. The whole concept of god was invented by mankind - not any god or gods.
You can shred any argument you like, and I can continue to believe as I wish - as I am sure you will too. However, I will say this: If there IS a supreme diety pulling the strings of the universe and mankind, I will never worship it/him/her/them. If such a being exists, it has failed to take care of its followers. To let it's followers suffer and die senselessly is the act of an impotent and cruel diety. Today's "God" is about as powerful as the pantheon of gods that classical civilizations like the Greeks, romans, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc. invented.

No I would not worship such a diety.
But as someone else has pointed out, this thread has gotten a bit off track here - so I'll leave it at that. .. . .

[anajmi]

Safiuddin,

I couldn't see any clear evidence. What you have provided as clear evidence is simply your own personal belief and opinion. Is that what passes as clear evidence in the scientific community these days? Have I ever denied evolution? There is ample proof of evolution? Does evolution prove God does not exist? Of course not. And to suggest as such would be fool hardy.

The movement of continental plates creates earthquakes, not a god.

Sure. Does that prove God does not exist? or that he did not create the universe?

Airplanes fly because the air pressure above the wing is less than that below it. A god doesn't provide the impetus.

Sure. And how does that prove God does not exist? The existence of air provides proof of God and not the flight of airplanes. The existence of continental plates provides proof of God and not their movement which causes earthquakes.

I will never worship it/him/her/them.

That is entirely your prerogative. God has given humans free will to believe in what they like. To say that you don't like someone and hence he doesn't exist is to behave like a cat which believes that no one will be able to see it if it closes its eyes.

To let it's followers suffer and die senselessly is the act of an impotent and cruel diety.

Actually followers suffer and die because of humans. If God were to intervene in every act of the humans, no one would have free will and the true picture of humanity would never emerge. If there were no cruelty, there would be no heroes. Life as we know it would be over. No more great scientists and no more great philosophers. All the greatness on earth has come about only because of suffering. Think about it.

[anajmi]

Besides, for believers, the suffering is only temporary, even if it leads to death. It is a test. A student suffers through an examination, but has a reward waiting for him at the end of it. If he passes that is. If he starts cursing the teacher for holding exams, then he isn't going to get very far in his career.

[humble_servant_us]

good post anajmi

[porus]

This discussion has veered away from sublime to silliness which happens a lot in this forum when anajmi starts participating.

The point is not about whether God exists or not or whether he created the universe. The point is whether the claims made by the religious about his existence stand up to the inquiry conducted with intellectual honesty.

God has no difficulty when it comes to show us the evidence of the existence of things he talks about in the Quran, for instance. He talks about trees, and we see trees. He talks about mountains and stars and we see these too. He also says that some things are hidden from us. However he clearly tells us that he exists and is not hidden from us. Is he kidding?

It should be easy for an omnipotent God to display evidence of his existence directly, not indirectly. He says that in the growing of trees there is a sign of God, but we do not see it.

So, since he can easily show us the evidence of his existence, and he wants us to know of his existence, the only conclusion is that he either does not exist at all, or at best, he is not as omnipotent as he claims to be.

Now, please remember. I am not saying that God exists or does not exist. I am saying that I am not convinced by the argument for his existence by the religious.

[anajmi]

It should be easy for an omnipotent God to display evidence of his existence directly, not indirectly.

Yes it is easy and this evidence has been displayed to those that were chosen. He is not a puppet that will put on a show everytime someone like you demands it. Today you demand it and then after you die, your children will demand it. So in short, God doesn't care about people like you and doesn't feel the need to satisfy your whims and fancies. Those that he cares about, already believe in him. The quran talks about those that will ask for evidence and those that have asked for evidence. I am sure you know what it says about them. So that is what God thinks about people like yourself.

[anajmi]

Here is one good ayah about those that demand evidence like porus does

006.158
YUSUFALI: Are they waiting to see if the angels come to them, or thy Lord (Himself), or certain of the signs of thy Lord! the day that certain of the signs of thy Lord do come, no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then if it believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith. Say: "Wait ye: we too are waiting."
PICKTHAL: Wait they, indeed, for nothing less than that the angels should come unto them, or thy Lord should come, or there should come one of the portents from thy Lord? In the day when one of the portents from thy Lord cometh, its belief availeth naught a soul which theretofore believed not, nor in its belief earned good (by works). Say: Wait ye! Lo! We (too) are waiting.
SHAKIR: They do not wait aught but that the angels should come to them, or that your Lord should come, or that some of the signs of your Lord should come. On the day when some of the signs of your Lord shall come, its faith shall not profit a soul which did not believe before, or earn good through its faith. Say: Wait; we too are waiting.

no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then if it believed not before

[porus]

Those who take 6:158 literally, this is what God says. "O yeah, you don't believe in my existence! Do you? Wait till I really show you the evidence of my existence on the Day of Judgment. Then, when you can really say that 'God exists', I am going to punish you for doubting before I showed you the evidence."

Yes it is easy and this evidence has been displayed to those that were chosen.

And what evidence do you have for saying that?

He is not a puppet that will put on a show everytime someone like you demands it.

I am not asking God to do anything. I am asking those who believe to produce a good argument for believing in his existence. This is the sort of argument a Kothari uses. If you ask him to show you why he believes Sayedna is going to take him to paradise by hand, he will retort "How dare you demand anything from Sayedna?" Notice, I do not ask Sayedna to do anything. I am merely asking the Kothari why he believes that.

So anajmi, don't go off your evangelical track. I am quite aware that you can neither prove nor disprove God's existence. I am only concerned with your intellectual honesty. There is that word again.

[anajmi]

Those who take 6:158 literally,

he he he. I knew you were going to say that.

I am asking those who believe to produce a good argument for believing in his existence.

Fine, you tell me what kind of evidence would you like?

I will show you in a moment, how intellectually dishonest ( ) you are.

[porus]

Fine, you tell me what kind of evidence would you like?

How about this?

God speaks in a booming voice from the sky, much like he did when he talked to Moses in the movie ‘The Ten Commandments”, to all the peoples of the earth, who would hear his message simultaneously in their own languages. He declares that his scriptures will suddenly appear on their dinner table; just so that they do not miss it when they get their meals. The scriptures will be in each person's native language and there will be enough copies for all over the age of seven. Then at each person’s seventh birthday, he will speak to them and their copy will appear on their dinner table.

Not difficult for God at all. Is it?

[anajmi]

So you do want God to be your puppet. See, it took not more than a moment for me to demonstrate your intellectual dishonesty. A moment ago, you said

I am not asking God to do anything.

I rest my case.

[porus]

I do not want God to do that. I mean, he could do that. That would be evidence. I do not care if he does or not. If he did, we would not have any discussions like this.

Remember, I was asking you for evidence, not God.

Now that you have proved your case, we can close this silly discussion.

[anajmi]

Remember, I was asking you for evidence, not God.

And, I asked you what kind of evidence would you like?

[porus]

There is absolutely no evidence, material, logical or spiritual, that any person can offer to prove God's existence. The only way is to pray to God, if you believe he answers your prayers, to do something along the lines I suggested.

Please do not think if your prayers are answered that God is your puppet. And do not think that he does not exist because your prayers are not answered.

[seeker110]

The right place to start the religion would be a heavily populated area so all this so called miracles would be observed by a ton of people.You would think China or Africa would be the place.Why choose a place with hardly any population.Not a good marketing strategy,but then again there is a sucker born every minute.Lets show all this miracles but make sure there is no evidence left or witnesses.

[anajmi]

Please do not think if your prayers are answered that God is your puppet.

So you want me to pray to God to give you a copy of the quran written in "evolution" on your 70th birthday (since you've passed 7....I think). I hope that he doesn't answer any such idiotic prayers. There are enough people out there with genuine prayers. Besides, you need to step back and think about what you are asking. If he were to provide the evidence that you are looking for, life as you know it right now would be over for you. You wouldn't be able to go for a piss without first shitting in your pants. You would think about all the stupid requests that you have made of God, and the mockery that you have made of God, and you won't be able to have fun with your kids or make love to your wife. People say that Hazrat Ali would shiver while standing in prayers. People asked him why even though he was guaranteed a place in heaven. His response was - what if I am making a mistake in my prayers. And here we have people asking God to dance to their tunes.

seeker,

As far as I know, you are neither in China nor in Africa. So that wouldn't help you. You'd still be what you are.

Lets show all this miracles but make sure there is no evidence left or witnesses.

Actually, there were a lot of witnesses who have left behind detailed logs. But you want God to talk to you personally in a booming voice. The way God is planning to treat you is exactly what you deserve.

[danishwar]

To porus with love,

thake hare parinde jab basere ke liye lautein,
saliqa mand shaakhon ka lachak jaana zaruri hai,,

saliqaa hi nahin shayad use mahsoos karne kaa,
jo kahta hai khuda hai to nazar aana zaruri hai....(waseem barelvi)

[Mustansir]

Al Zulfiqar,

I am glad you liked the videos. When it comes to Astronomy, I for sure have not read as much as you have and not taken as much initiative as you have to continuously learn more in this subject, but I try my best. The series you are talking about was indeed Cosmos and unfortunately, it was around 4 years ago that I came to know about Carl Sagan and his work. So I definitely have a lot to catch up with. It was pretty recently that I read the 'Cosmos' book and of course thoroughly enjoyed it. I still have to finish watching the Cosmos series but will get to it soon.

Just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy reading your posts on this forum and it is really commendable that people like you take out time to write here. I am from Toronto and it is pretty much the same case with the Jamaat here as expected. All the best!

[Al Zulfiqar]

thanks mustansir, for your kind words on my musings.

as for keeping upto date on astronomy, i am afraid that i havent been doing so since i moved to canada. in fact my reading of books has suffered. there is something about canadian lifestyle that is deceptive. although one ostensibly works shorter hours and fewer days, somehow one is busy doing nothing! perhaps one of the key factors is the neccessity of doing all housework oneself in the absence of cheap domestic househelp, unlike india, africa, pakistan. middle east etc, and we havent reached that stage of bliss here as yet where we can afford the luxury of paying big bucks to a janitorial service to come and do it regularly.

to get back to the subject at hand, astronomy - more than any subject - fascinates and challenges the human mind and when often you cannot find any rational explanation of its workings and its mysteries, one is forced to seek some semblance of logic and comfort from the pages of scriptures. some of the material from the ancient vedas and puranas and from the quran are thought provoking in their understanding and their manner of throwing light on things beyond our understanding. of course, a lot of it is open to multiple interpretations and can be made to 'fit the bill', but then it can also be maintained that our human understanding is still largely under-developed to interpret these scriptures. so one can give the benefit of doubt either way.

to ascribe to 'god' all the super human traditional attributes that we earthlings tend to do is rather mundane and extreme, as we stretch his/its definition way beyond expectations. no god can be universally just, humane, all forgiving or balanced as that would defeat the requirements of justice. but neither can he be viewed as some vengeful, bloodthirsty omni-potentate, which requires beheadings and human or animal sacrifices. it is also not possible to defeat the notion of an absence of god or a supreme entity by any scientific method or with the best and most powerful logic that we can produce.

perhaps the concept of a god lies somewhere in between. perhaps as ancient hinduism mentions, if we each individually have an atma, then there has to be a param-atma in which each and every atma merges (vileen) upon its departure from its various stages, earthly life being one of its manifestations. thus every atma is a part of a whole, but in itself a complete little miniature of the param-atma and that explains the oft repeated refrain of sages that 'instead of setting out to find god without, search for him within". and that would then also explain the concept of faith, which is nothing but the strengthening of the belief of the atma within you to the point that you surrender to the power of that atma to create positive energy fields around you that can literally move mountains and make things happen. this also acknowledges that the human brain - which is still little undertood - has the power to heal us and itself if we permit it by our surrender to the param-atma (islam = surrender to that highest spirit). we can convince ourselves, for our simple human minds to focus upon any external being, such as jesus, moses, the prophet muhammad or santoshi maata, if it helps us to realise their worth to us in looking inwards and focusing our positive mental energies. a curious evidence to strengthen our minds and this 'spirit' is the emphasis by all religions on clearing our atma by removing all polluting influences like vices, addictions, dirt, and evil thoughts by penance, fastings, hygeine, prayer, adherence to discipline in personal life, donations of alms, participating in religious gatherings to increase our tolerance and inculcate humility etc etc. this is much like concentrating the sun's rays through a clear prism rather than an opaque, unclean and scratched glass.

it is easy to take an extreme stance either way, to dismiss any theory of a traditional or simple religion-anointed god outright or to blindly start believing the hocus pocus and crap dished out by charlatans who comprise the major portion of all godmen today. i would not take such a gamble because that would not be intellectual honesty on my part and would be way too presumptive of a me at this stage. i would rather continue to keep wrestling with my own puny mind to try and come to terms with myself. i dont think any human being is as yet capable of passing judgement, but then with all due respect, to each his own, as religion and the idea of GOD is an intensely personal concept. obviously then thats all the more reason that we have to resist any one-size-fits-all formula which is forced down our throats.

much more can be discussed on this, but at some later date.

[Fatwa Banker]

Actually the quran talks about the earth being spherical (egg shaped) and that it revolves around the sun, almost a thousand years before Galileo..

There is no ayah in the quran which says that the earth is egg shaped.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does evolution prove God does not exist? Of course not. And to suggest as such would be fool hardy.

Does God prove that evolution does not exist ? Of course not. And to suggest as such would be fool hardy.

how many years or days would it take those same monkeys to come up with the theory of evolution?

Hell of a lot more than writing a book in a language alien to you, and telling you it is the word of God.

[mburhan]

In most western countries, a person is NOT guilty until he/she is proven and adjudged so in the Law Courts:

News from UK
http://www.sfo.gov.uk/press-room/latest ... raud'.aspx


Disciplinary Action by the UK Law Society
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:8CS ... clnk&gl=ca

Solicitors from Hell!
http://www.solicitorsfromhell.co.uk/ind ... 4&Itemid=1

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top- ... _page.html

[anajmi]

Does God prove that evolution does not exist ? Of course not. And to suggest as such would be fool hardy.

Correct. No one is suggesting that evolution does not exist. Now stop farting.

Hell of a lot more than writing a book in a language alien to you,

Then may be you should start typing.

[Mustansir]

Mustansir,

In your rabble you actually proved my point that human beings did not evolve but were created.

So to put it simply, anajmi and people who "think" like him (very very loosely using the word) will "believe" in anything and everything without even understanding it first, as long as it doesn't contradict or oppose their current preconceived dogmatic worldview. As soon as there is any contradiction, anajmi will put on the reliable religious blinders and simply ignore the rest. And then try to hide the ignorance & arrogance by quoting from his ancient scriptures, throwing in totally irrelevant words like 'fart' and using unnecessary emoticons...and obviously, failing at it miserably.

Anajmi claims to "believe" that evolution does exist...but of course, when you start talking about the evolution of the human species, the blinders automatically come back on. Does he bother to provide any explanation for why evolution is true as a natural process for rest of the animal kingdom and plants but not applicable to humans? No, because he has none. Then why to reject the fact of human evolution? Because it shatters the childish, arrogant & egocentric worldview he has that the world and the whole cosmos was "created" with people like him in mind. Well when a person lacks any true meaning or purpose to his/her life, such a fictitious worldview might help temporarily but facts are stubborn and they keep coming back. One cannot have a logical conversation with such a person as they are not open to having one in the first place. With such massive levels of ignorance and arrogance, a couple of things that may help is a little bit of humility and reading more books instead of reading the same old one book repeatedly for the entire life . I obviously cannot see the future but I can guess with good amount of confidence that if anajmi has anything to say about what I just wrote, it won't be more than quotation marks, farts & emoticons...which ironically will re-prove my point.

[mburhan]

News from UK -correction

http://www.sfo.gov.uk/press-room/latest ... raud'.aspx