Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

[Ala maqaam]

you know, i wish you would maintain this ame tone of civility in all your threads (and i should practice what i preach too).

It is so much nicer to have a polite conversation rather than get into a game of one-upmanship (which i might confess i am prone to do too)

Anyways, i said it and i meant it, you do not have to justify how much you live your life by the Quran, to anyone, least of all me.

i buy into your opinion that maatam should not be clubbed with Namaaz or done in a masjid, but then again, it's just that, an opinion.

And we are all entitled to have an opinion of our own.

You feel it is wrong, we feel it is not.

So let's just park it there, because nowhere in the Quran is maatam disallowed as part of the namaaz or in a mosque.. but, like i said, its a matter of opinions.

And as for the passage from the book, we certianly do not worship our Dai as God. Yes, we do glorify him and look upto him, but we do not pray to Him, except for the 2 rakaats (which, i must admit, i do not do).
We say "Allaho Akbar", not "Syedna o Akbar". We say "Allhamdo Lillah", not "Allhamdo Syedna".

My analgoies might be completely of the mark, and my apologies if they are, i mean no disrespect to either Allah or our Dai, but the point im trying to make here is that a lot of peope think, and i dont know why no one has tried to correct them, that we too, pray to Allah and we see our Dai as our spiritual leader (Saifuddin/Fear Allah - Take heed. You might have come in contact with some people who equate our Dai with Allah, but they are a minority)

Anyways, I'm digressing from the point on hand. So, to get back to your comment... It's all a matter of opinions.

2 rakaat namaz is not prayed to syedna but it is prayed to Allah so that he keep his mercy upon dai,this is a nafil namaz same way we pray salatul hajaat or salaatul tasbeeh.

there is nothing wrong to pray for momeen.we can also pray for all momeenin in the same way.

we can also pray for our parents in the same way,if some body wants to pray for their parents.

[anajmi]

mustafa,

As I have said before, anything less dramatic, and you won't understand. Fortunately, since you had nothing else to say, other than to comment on the analogy itself, I assume my point made it through to your head.

[anajmi]

So your point is that since Quran doesn't prohibit masturbation in the masjid, it is allowed, right?

[Ala maqaam]

So your point is that since Quran doesn't prohibit masturbation in the masjid, it is allowed, right?

nothing else is expected from you

[anajmi]

Actually that is mustafanalwalla's point, unless he wants to refute it.

[anajmi]

That is your point you moron. Did your parents just waste money on your education? Let me repeat, that is your point, not mine or my teacher's. Are you willing to refute it?

[ghulam muhammed]

So let's just park it there, because nowhere in the Quran is maatam disallowed as part of the namaaz or in a mosque.. but, like i said, its a matter of opinions.

Bro mustafanalwalla,

I fully agree with your contention that nowhere in the Quran is maatam disallowed (neither is it allowed) ANYWHERE. And like you said that it is a matter of opinion........... so whose opinion could we consider the best ? I dont think there is an iota of doubt that the BEST opinion should be of Prophet (s.a.w.) and Mola Ali (a.s.) and to stretch it further even Panjatan Pak (a.s.). So please tell me whether Prophet (s.a.w.) did maatam on the said demise of his only son, Hazrat Ibrahim (a.s.) who was in infancy or did he do matam on the shahadat of his beloved uncle Hamza (a.s.) who was martyred in the most brutal manner ? Did Imam Hasan (a.s.) or Imam Hussain (a.s.) do matam on the shahadat of their beloved father, Mola Ali (a.s.) ? I dont think that anyone else other then these holy souls (least of all the bohras) experienced more grief after losing their beloved ones.

[Al Zulfiqar]

now that muharram is round the corner, maatam will be once again front and centre of bohra lives... it will be exploited to the fullest to further the nefarious commercial agenda of the wily kothar. as the abdes hammer themselves silly, the cunningly subliminal messages will be unleashed on their unsuspecting brains. now there will be 2 devtas to worship, the incumbent syedna and his manhoos....oops, sorry mansoos!

it will be drummed into the naive abdes' psyche how lucky they are to have 2 gods simultaneously walking the earth for them, fighting their battles against the daawat na dushmano, both pulling their weight to take our daawat no rickety khataaro to jannat, how they are praying for us, crying for us, sending our lamentations to hussain and his kaaflo of shaheeds, how they are carrying our burdens a' la jesus christ and suffering on our behalf (while they fly first class and dine on ziyafats of course), how they must be showered with fakhir rakams and najwas (so they can iive the lives of peshwas), how you must remember them, the father-son duo while you beat yrself for hussain.... ad nauseum.

watch out as the muharram ni dukaan is opened with great fanfare soon..!! this year there will be many special offers and amazing bargains, bring your wallets, credit cards and cheque books. grab all the sawaab and barakat as plenty of stocks are being made available....!!!!!!

[humble_servant_us]

When my father died, I cried. Is this Biddah. Someone whom i loved died, so i cried. Is this wrong.

The event of Karbala is a very monumental event in the history of mankind. It was the event which has clearly distinguished the truth from falsehood. Imam Husain(as) was the grandson of the holy prophet(pbuh) and love to the family of holy prophet(pbuh) is important as per quran (verse of mawaddah). Many of us cry in love of the great imam husain(as) and the way his family was ruthlessly butchered. This crying may make us beat our chest out of grief which is Maatam. What is this wrong in this.

I understand that nowadays the maatam has became more "ritualistic" , but that applies to namaz , haj etc. Shias do not consider Maatam as a pillar of islam like namaz, fast etc . It is an expression of love for the family of the prophet(pbuh) which is purely individual based.

Reflection on the event of karbala and sacrifice of great Imam is the core. Crying/Maatam are reactions.
It is important to love the imam and follow his principles because to love him is to love the prophet(pbuh). I am sure if we sincerely love the prophet(pbuh) we might shed a tear for the imam who was his blood and flesh, irrespective what ever school of thought we come up. This is just fitrat.

[Muslim First]

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib

Ali heard Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) curse those who took usury, those who paid it, those who recorded it, and those who refused to give sadaqah. And he used to prohibit wailing.
Nasa'i transmitted it.

I can post more ahadith or search Maatam

[Muslim First]

Mustafa
So while you are free to comment, you will, i hope, forgive me if i do not wish to continue this conversation with you.

You Cannot face facts which I preset.
Remember if it is not Expressly mentioned in Qur'an or authentic Sunna then you should not endorse or participate in such activites.

[Muslim First]

HUS
When my father died, I cried. Is this Biddah. Someone whom i loved died, so i cried. Is this wrong.

No it is not Biddah.
Read account of death of Prophet's son and what prophet said to people when he shed tears.
This account is in Prophet's sirat ( Ibn Hasim's is in pdf forman on net).

Fiqh As-Sunnah -- Death
http://www.islamiska.org/e/d2.htm

Islamic Perspectives on--- Trials and Tribulations
http://www.welcome-back.org/topic/trials.shtml

[Al Zulfiqar]

i expected the blind abdes to react the way they did for they do not use their god given brains to reflect on what they do and the ludicrousness of it all.

far from being critical of the practice of maatam or of lament, i in fact, pay sincere respects to the shohoda whose sacrifice and ultimate act of bravery has been reduced to a mockery by the kothar with their overacting and shedding of crocodile tears while they rake in the moolah from emotionally vulnerable unsuspecting fools. where is the real analysis of the events of kerbala, the reflection on the underlying causes, the fight of good v/s evil, of righteousness against tyranny, of austerity and principles against indolence and lasciviousness, of integrity v/s dishonesty and corruption?

our muharram is only a superficial coverage of the events with a lot of gory details thrown in, a recounting of the macabre slaughter only and a lot of superflous tear-jerking dubious details, but no attempt at exploring the deep underlying philosophy of hussain. the very act of maatam has been reduced to a caricature with the highly stylised forms of beats and chants. let there be a factual narration of events and a detailed analysis of its reasons and consequences and what permanent lessons we can derive from it. then see where that places the corrupt clergy who are lecturing us on morals and principles! let us see if they have the guts and daring to make a dispassionate critique of the events of kerbala instead of just following the drill that has been drummed into their heads at the nefarious jamea's to fool a gullible community.

there are other shia communities where moharram is a highly restrained and dignified affair, not the tamasha made by the kothar, followed by hungry hordes descending like wolves on kharas, mithaas and jaman.

if this simple explanation does not yet satisfy a bohra, then what if anything can be said about their intelligence and common sense?

[anajmi]

I say that our Maatam is loud and vociferous because we feel the pain truly and deeply and yours is quiet and sober because you dont really care about the Shahaadat at all, so that makes you an even bigger hypocrite, shedding crocodile tears.

Oh please!! No one feels the pain. This is pure bull crap. Where are the deeds to feel the pain? You do not want me to get personal with you now do you? You keep saying that you have no idea about religion, about the Quran, about Islam and do not mind visiting mandirs with you wife and now suddenly you feel true and deep pain about the sacrifices made by Hussain in Karbala? Maatam has been created for people like you to make them guilt free. Beat your chest, shed some tears, and then go out and do as you please!!

[anajmi]

mustafa,

Let me explain something to you. You think that you do maatam and shed tears during these settings because you feel deep pain and sorrow but that is not the case. Infact it is quite the opposite. Because you are doing maatam and shedding tears you think that you feel deep pain and sorrow. I am hoping that you are smart enough to understand the difference.

I am assuming that you don't just feel deep pain and sorrow whenever you hear the story of Imam Hussain that is to be followed by maatam right? I am assuming that you've probably felt deep pain and sorrow on other occasions as well. Can you think of any such occasion when you started doing maatam and shedding tears for the deep pain and sorrow that you felt on that occasion? Probably not. Does that mean that you feel most pain and sorrow only during Imam Hussain gatherings? And that too without having a clue as to what it is that he fought and died for? The only person that you are fooling over here is yourself. You are like a parrot who does what his master does but has no clue what he is doing. In your case, you have more than one master and you have no clue why either one is doing what it is that they are doing and you are repeating.

[JC]

I fully agree with Bro Anajmi.

Matam is just a great tool in the hands of user masters to keep the crowd (masses) in line and in tune. This is just for controlling mass psychology. You keep the group of people 'combined' and 'attached' to ONE thing for which they are willing to do anything. Its like when a Leader is giving speech and in between resorts to chanting slogans (singing, dancing etc too).

These people are clever hence they say Ghum-e-Hussain is extreme and no Ghum equates that Ghum so I am positive Mustafa will come up with this reply that at no other time or Ghum he feels the need to do Matam.

Secondly, the masses always need a Martyr, hence you should provide one, once you have an 'established' Martyr, you need a flag barrier of that Martyr so that people can associate and connect to that Martyr. Hence Dai is the Flag Barrier of Hussain .......... if you LOVE the Martyr you have to love the flag barrier.

Also, you need to have an 'Enemy' identified for masses ....... where will the anger go, where it will be pointed to ....... if there is Martyr, who was the bad guy ........ again, these guys are so clever, with Yazid (they know most of the Muslims would agree Yazid was evil) it will not work that good (and masses MAY connect to Other Muslim sects), you need to have your OWN enemy, hence create hatred for First Three Caliphs (serves two purposes - provides a 'powerfu;' enemy AND disconnets abdes from all other muslim sects).

[porus]

In case you missed it.....

"The theory that maatam was ‘invented’ by the British to discredit Muslims does not ring true. However, it seems likely that Safavids encouraged it as a display of the loyalty of their subjects against their traditional Arab rivals.

Maatam, as an expression of spontaneous grief, first occurred among the Ladies of the Ahl-e-bayt on the day of martyrdom of Husain. Imam Zain al-Abideen joined them in expressing the grief. Beating parts of body like cheeks, breasts or thighs during grief was a common custom amongst Arabs and there is a hadith regarding Prophet himself beating his thighs in grief.

During the 200 years following the death of the Prophet, before the Shia identity had completely solidified, there was much jockeying for political power amongst various groups of Muslims. One manner in which groups shape a unique identity is through rituals. Re-enacting Zainab’s and Zain al-Abideen’s laments lent themselves as a fodder for a unique ritual and the leaders of the nascent Shia community took advantage of this episode to fashion this maatam ritual. Its primary purpose was to focus the group’s attention towards wresting political power for their leaders from their rivals.

It so happened that the power was won by ahle-hadith, a rival to the Shia. Ahle-hadith were able to rule the majority of Muslims, who by default, accepted the ruling elites’ bias and became ahle-hadith or, as we now know them, Sunnis. People forget that this was purely a political victory and they think that because this group is in the majority, it is true Islam. Nothing is further from truth. Originally, both Ahle-hadith and the Shia were equal in numbers. Majority of either are not thinkers, they are followers.

The Shia group split into Ithna-asharis and Ismailies. Ithna-asharis remained in political doldrums in the hostile Sunni Abbasid environment and their leaders used Maatam as a counterbalance to the Sunnis with the ultimate aim to secure power for the family of the Prophet. Ithna-asharis are still engaged in this power play.

Ismailies, on the other hand, were successful in establishing an empire in North Africa, the Fatimid dynasty. Thus the use of the ritual of maatam declined as a political tool to overthrow rival dynasties like the Abbasids. Fatimids were too busy consolidating their own empire. Thus, maatam lost its force during the Fatimid period.

Thus, amongst Ismailies, Bohras and Khojas, maatam did not have the same intensity as amongst the Ithna-asharis. Maatam was re-introduced amongst Bohras because of their closeness to Ithna-asharis in India. While Ithna-asharis had a clear focus to regain power for the family of the Prophet, Bohras have no such purpose. Their maatam is simply a ploy that the ruling class uses for their own purpose. This is, as others have rightly pointed out, to keep Bohras in subjugation.

Bohras have disgracefully turned maatam into Ibaadat. This has no sanction from Quran or from Imams. We know that at least one Dai has sought to ban the practice altogether.

Immediate expression of grief when a calamity befalls is understandable. But to create a ritual drama with steady and gradual increase in violence of self-flagellation for an ancient calamitous event has no place in a civilized society. Continuous output of marsiyas, breast beating, etc with no objective to plan for recovering the power, is a tool of subjugation; a tool for retaining power by Kothar over Bohras. Bohras should wake up and stop it, one person at a time."

[anajmi]

Taking a lesson from porus' post and without intending to start a shia sunni debate (like that has ever stopped me ) we can say that the ritual of maatam will probably disappear once the bohra leadership disappears. However, the Sunnah of the prophet(saw) and those who follow it will continue to exist even with a non existing leadership.

[Al Zulfiqar]

i have expounded on the complete issue of maatam right at the outset and how it has been used by several forces in various ages, both political/temporal and religious leaderships in achieving their avowed sinister aims by chanelling deliberately engineered grief and simultaneously whipped up dangerous emotions and passions among the unthinking masses.

after tons of posts and contributions on this thread and several intelligent and thoughtful posts, what does the typical closed-minded abde derive from it all? only the stupid and perhaps deliberately pretentious comments that we, the progressives are making fun of their style of maatam or the institution of maatam itself as a means of venting grief and showing extreme devotion to their sai baba syedna and even to allah himself!

i am sure everyone has heard of the common adage, where it is observed that after the complete recitation of the sampoorna ramayana, the fool asks "who is rama"?

such are the retards we have on this forum, people like m nalwala and his ilk.

[Smart]

^ @ Null walla
Adding one more sentence on your behalf.
" Not knowing about anything has nothing to do with anything else, and so it should prevent me (mustafanalwala) from posting here"

[anajmi]

If you can post it again, we can continue the discussion. If your reason was "feeling pain for another human being" then following questions were asked which you couldn't/haven't answered. Till then, I am going to have to assume that this cue-ed crying and maatam is all for show.

[Smart]

AZ, Anajmi and Smart.

I have posted my reason for feeling the pain during the maatam of Imam Hussain in another post.

I suggest you read it. That should clarify my stance on this topic

Making people run around for answers which are vague are a obvious case of a cop out. Clarifies a lot of issues. Thanks for running away.

[Al Zulfiqar]

mn,

the issue of contention is not that you do not feel strong emotions and pain at hearing the vaaz, which is commendable, because most others do sleep and chat while its going on; the main issue under discussion was that syedna and his lackeys ask abdes to atleast do "rova jevu moh."

you contested that statement and now are skirting the issue, instead of admitting that you were wrong. plenty of others supported the fact that this is in fact being said all the time, something you said that you were totally unaware of.

[Smart]

mn,
So your masters instruct you in drama? Asking openly to pretend to grieve for Imam Husain. Is this not hypocrisy? Do you think it is moral, ethical and right to promote humbug and false behaviour?

I know you will post a long reply why your masters are good and correct and it will convince only those who are completely brainwashed.

[ghulam muhammed]

i try to visualise the pain that Imam Hussain felt when his child was murdered in his arms. i then ponder over how much it would pain if i ever had to go through it and this brings tears to the eyes.... naturally

Needless to say that after tears rolling down your eyes you spontanously start beating your chest. Now if suppose that a similar situation arose when your near and dear one passed away, the pain and sorrow will naturally be much more then what you envisage during the bayan. So inspite of the pain and sorrow being more acute, will you then follow up with chest beating after wetting a few handkerchiefs ?

[humanbeing]

Hi MN

Sorry to poke into your argument, but this mass hysteria you mentioned is not a positive outcome of gam-e-hussain.. there is a misconception or blind belief in doing matam ferociously. 2 major reason going on in the psyche of the matameen (if that term is correct !)

Harder they beat the chest more is the devotion towards Imam Hussain and Allah will be more happier with hardest pounding on chest. In return Allah granting long life to Sayedna.

Harder they beat the chest more is the devotion towards valaya of Sayedna Saheb, making him happy to know how his farzando are expressing gam-e-hussain.

A person cannot get carried away within minutes in extreme grief of gam-e-hussain and start pounding chest. And moment “Wada-e-funa” is recited, it takes seconds for sad & grieving mumins to form thaal or look for friends and relatives as if lost in a carnival aka mela. The mass hysteria is superstition created by the orchestra master sitting on the takht.

During Muharram matam is not a small part, infact waaz or bayan is small part done between maatams.

[humanbeing]

Hi MN

Where are we heading ! Is this principles and tradition we going to carry forward to our next generation. Is this going to be gam-e-hussain, doing emotionless regimented coaxed ritualistic orchestrated maatam out of mass hysteria !!

Yes MN I accept that frenzied maatam in our majlises is not out of effective bayans or true game-e-hussain but its out of cajoling from the master and obedience to orders mentality. The essence of Maatam is lost. It is now a ritual to make Sayedna happy, please Allah and wash our guilt or settle our conscience that we “celebrated Muharram”

[humanbeing]

Hi MN

Phew !! No way Pal ! I m sorry if you misunderstood me. I have already expressed my thoughts on Maatam much before on this forum, which includes my POVs same as mentioned here.

I can say with integrity of my thoughts, what I see, observe and feel in Majlises is what I have reflected in post. I have no reason, benefit or motive to ridicule Muharram or maatam in our majlises. But its my instincts / conscience which says that all is not well like this. I m not against Maatam, I m against its misconceptions. For me Maatam is extreme state of grief in my mind and heart which is not necessarily pounding of chest as exhorted by master on takht. I don’t care if person sitting next to me in majlis is listening to bayan, sleeping, chatting, playing games or yelling out “Ya Hussain” and pounding chest to please the orders. Its a state where I m lost in the true grief to acknowledge the pain and hardships of Imam Hussain now be this moments of grief as short as 5 minutes, it is better than 30 minutes of emotionless maatam.

Reading your post, I don’t have much more to say, as it would just lead to mindless arguments. Not that you are a wrong person and I m hell bent on proving you wrong. But wanted to share a sad observation to bring some realization. At one point in life I was a proud and strongest matameen in the circle.

[Al Zulfiqar]

mn,

for once, you have posted a reply which is eminently sensible. since you admit that collective maatam is mass hysteria, then as someone else has also pointed out, who or what is the reason for ratcheting up this hysteria?

the kothari agents have been deliberately and cunningly instructed to do so, trained in the daras how to whip up emotions and then insert subtle and subliminal messages exhorting and praising the dai and elevating him and linking him to hussain, ali and allah. whereas its an individual's choice how he reacts to these sinister machinations which all have their basis in money and power, dont you think that playing with people's emotions in this cruel manner is a mockery of the sacrifices, martyrdom and sad events of kerbala? dont you think that it somehow in a grotesque manner, reduces the principle of their ultimate sacrifice and mutates it into a circus??

[JC]

This is an addiction and Kotharis are purposely poisoning abdes and amtes for their ulterior vested interests. It is high time that people understand this and stop for a while and think ..... think where all this is going??!! What they do not understand is that there are no free lunches .......... what you are trying to 'buy' from Dai & Co is actually not available with them, it is not a saleable commoditiy and yet you all are paying a hefty price for this.

The ultimate prize (which people are trying to get) seems to be Janat, and the price tag for this is simple Taqwa and good deeds. Janat is the thing not guaranteed by even greatest of Prophets, so how can a mere self-proclaimed dai can guarantee this??